Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:07 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (jnbolding1)
2. 08:08 AM - Wing Tank Transfer (Schallgren@aol.com)
3. 08:14 AM - Re: Update on XL (Grant Corriveau)
4. 08:24 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (Leo Gates)
5. 08:27 AM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: fuel fittings (Doon47@aol.com)
7. 08:39 AM - Rotax recommendation (Dave Alberti)
8. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: Update on XL (Grant Corriveau)
9. 08:52 AM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Grant Corriveau)
10. 09:04 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (Grant Corriveau)
11. 09:36 AM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Gary Gower)
12. 09:41 AM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
13. 10:45 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) (Gary Gower)
14. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: fuel fittings (Pinneo, George)
15. 11:15 AM - Re: Rotax recommendation (Leo Gates)
16. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: fuel fittings (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
17. 11:33 AM - Re: antifreeze (Bryan Martin)
18. 11:43 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) (Rick Pitcher)
19. 12:57 PM - Battery Location (Dave Kubassek)
20. 03:59 PM - Re: antifreeze (Gary Gower)
21. 04:34 PM - Re: antifreeze (Pinneo, George)
22. 04:58 PM - Re: Rotax recommendation (Dave Austin)
23. 05:11 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Ed)
24. 05:58 PM - Rotax Cabin Heat? (Daniel Vandenberg)
25. 06:09 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
26. 06:12 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper)
27. 06:19 PM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Ray Montagne)
28. 06:19 PM - Rotax cabin heat..... (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
29. 06:23 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper)
30. 06:35 PM - Re: Rotax Cabin Heat? (Bryan Martin)
31. 06:56 PM - Welding order (701)... (Jari Kaija)
32. 07:01 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Paul Sharpe)
33. 07:12 PM - Re: Battery Location (Bryan Martin)
34. 07:22 PM - Re: Rotax Cabin Heat? (Mark Stauffer)
35. 08:03 PM - Jabiru 3300 horsepower (Jeff Small)
36. 08:15 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper)
37. 08:27 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
38. 08:38 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 horsepower (Daniel Vandenberg)
39. 08:44 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
40. 09:12 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper)
41. 09:41 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 horsepower (Jeff Small)
42. 09:46 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Schallgren@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
>N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight
>adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze and
>30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I used
>an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the inlet
>side of the engine fuel pump.
>
One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of the guys with
water cooled engines over the last year or two is a possible perception that
if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS to be better.
Indy racers (and others I guess) use little or no antifreeze as they aren't concerned
with freezing or corrosion and antifreeze INHIBITS cooling. The more antifreeze
% you have the larger radiator you have to have for a given btu input,
The pressures are higher but the max heat rejection is with no antifreeze.
I wonder how many of the Rotax/Soob drivers have been chasing a problem they
don't really have. I'm not trying to suggest that anybody is doing something wrong
.just pointing out a fact of physics that might help someone avoid a lot
of grief. LOW&SLOW John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
Dave:
Your statement: "Stan, I guess it doesn't really matter where the wing tank
fuel is pumped. If that
tank's Facet pump fails, no fuel will end up in the carbs, since there is no
way to pump fuel to either the header tank or the gascolator."
My Reply: The advantage to the header tank is that I should have a lot of
fuel remaining in it when the wing tank transfer pump fails. Normally, I
start transfer from a wing tank when the header is down to about 8 gallons. I
then transfer 4 gallons to the header. If there is no transfer I have about
1.3 hours and 150 miles to find an alternate airport.
If I could be convinced that the engine would still run with fuel coming from
the wing tanks with a failed facet pump; I might consider direct transfer to
the gascolator/engine.
Stan
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Update on XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" <dkubassek@golden.net>
>
> For those of you enquiring
> An update on the flight testing of C-FDSF 601XL
> w/Lyc 0235.
> We now have a grand total of 6.5 hrs on tach.
Thanks -- good report!
I hate to see you lose 20lbs of payload -- isn't there a way to move the
battery back a little further to get the necessary c of g? I also have a
heavy engine (CAM100) and have dual RGB batteries located in the tail just
aft of the rear baggage bulkhead and my c of g is just fine (HDS). Where is
your battery located?
Happy flying and please keep giving us the reports!
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates <leogates@allvantage.com>
jnbolding1 wrote:
>One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of the guys with
water cooled engines over the last year or two is a possible perception that
if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS to be better.
>
>I am not chasing an over heat problem. Rotax recommendation is 70% antfreeze.
I think boing point is the issue - prestone says 70% mix will boil at 275 degrees
F.
>
Leo Gates
Do not archive.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Good point, Stan. Also, did you install another Facet pump as a backup to,
and in series with, the engine-driven pump, in case the engine pump fails? I
know that many builders are doing this, installing a backup pump either in
series or in parallel with the engine pump.
Thanks.....Dave
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fuel fittings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Doon47@aol.com
I've started assembling the fuel system in my 701 and have noted the absence
of o-rings. What are listers using to seal fuel fittings - especially those
with engines using auto fuel CHIP MULDOON doon47@aol.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Rotax recommendation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
Rotax recommends 50/50 for the 912 and 914 series engines and to never
exceed the coolant manufacturers mixing rations.
Dave
>I am not chasing an over heat problem. Rotax recommendation is 70%
antfreeze. I think boing point is the issue - prestone says 70% mix will
boil at 275 degrees F.
>
Leo Gates
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Update on XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> ...I think
> the HDS just runs out of wing at gross weight on a hot day. Certainly at
> 9000ft density altiude the plane is flying well nose high just to maintain
> altitude.
I noticed this nose-high attitude in my first few flights and I've adjusted
my ailerons 'down' a tad on both sides just to get a more comfortable body
attitude.
Re-- 'running out of wing' .... I've been wondering what a wing-tip fence or
vertical extension might do. This aircraft has a small aspect ratio and one
way to increase it effectively, is to add and end vertically. This doesn't
complicate the wing aerodynamics of lift, but MIGHT/SHOULD reduce the
wingtip vortex drag... so the theory goes...
If I ever get other issues all worked out and feel like becoming a test
pilot one day.... ;-) I wonder if the factory has every tried adding some
sort of tip fence?
I think one of the Mikes (FRND?) has modified his wingtips in some
manner....
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
> I do not support the statement quoted below:
...
> Stan
> 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49
Stan,
For a more accurate assessment - you should take into account the fact that
with a Jab3300 engine you are using significantly more HorsePower than
Zenith bases their specs on for this airplane. The original speed claims
were based on an 80 HP Rotax. I think the Jab3300 produces 120 HP? that's a
50% increase to get those last 10-20 mph that were 'promised' ;-)
fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>> N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight
>> adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze and
>> 30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I used
>> an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the inlet
>> side of the engine fuel pump.
>>
>
> One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of the guys
> with water cooled engines over the last year or two is a possible perception
> that if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS to be better.
The 'Prestone' antifreeze sold in these parts (Canada) usually recommend a
50% mix for the best balance of protection from +40C to -40C.. fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Stan,
Your mail is a keeper in the archives!
Our next project a 601 XL is almost on its way from ZAC...
The 701 is almost finished.
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S.
Do not archive.
--- Schallgren@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
>
> List:
>
> I do not support the statement quoted below:
>
> "Looking back now over the past ten years, I am certain that air
> speed is the
> only thing ZAC has been consciously deceptive about. Claiming a
> cruise of 140
> for the prototype HDS wasn't fair to us. The 135 they lowered it to
> is still
> out of reach for all but the rare bird."
>
> Ours gets the 135 at the minimum and has gotten up to 140 mph (GPS
> confirmed)
> at 7,500'. A change of the original Prince prop to a Sensenich
> increased
> the speed significantly and wheel pants added another 5 mph. Will
> be
> interested to see what the sea level speeds will be as even the
> Prince prop did great
> coming out of OSH last year.
>
> Quality of build, empty weight, engine, altitude and temp are all
> critical
> factors in determining the cruise speed. Think we should consider a
> flyoff at
> the Open House Hangar day this year at Mexico to see how many 'rare
> birds'
> there are.
>
>
> Stan
> 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49
> 125 hours
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hmm.....We are currently looking for our next plane.
Marriage is an awesome but interesting instituion....Of course my Wife's
ideal plane is a four seat so we can take our "friends" on our camping
trips. My Wife is not a pilot and has a somewhat romantic dream, i.e a four
seat big enough to take four folks plus all their gear is really a six seat
airplane which would represent less than 1% of our flying. But of course
using the Wife's "ideal" plane means doing 99% of our flying burning 20
gallons an hour.
My ideal plane involves our "friends" buying their own plane or
driving....Finally "she who must be obeyed" saw the error in her dream and
realised the shortcomings of the zodiac as we flogged up over the mountains
in the dark at 9000ft density altitude doing about 75mph into a headwind.
So we were almost at the RV 7 decision when she said...doesn't ZAC have a 4
seat design?
Groan....and of course she is now looking at the claimed 150mph cruise and
telling me its "plenty fast enough".
Of course my darling missus does not have the experience of claimed 16000ft
ceilings and 140mph cruise on only 80 rubber bands and being very
disappointed after nearly 1000 hours of work.
I hope I can disuade her 'cos I would literally hate building a plane I just
know the designer has a big track record of highly exagerated claims.
As I said earlier, the 601 has a lot going for it but the reality vs the
claims will have me searching for a different designer next time.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Corriveau [mailto:grantc@ca.inter.net]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
> I do not support the statement quoted below:
...
> Stan
> 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49
Stan,
For a more accurate assessment - you should take into account the fact that
with a Jab3300 engine you are using significantly more HorsePower than
Zenith bases their specs on for this airplane. The original speed claims
were based on an 80 HP Rotax. I think the Jab3300 produces 120 HP? that's a
50% increase to get those last 10-20 mph that were 'promised' ;-)
fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
--- jnbolding1 <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1"
> <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
>
>
> >N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight
>
> >adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze
> and
> >30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I
> used
> >an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the
> inlet
> >side of the engine fuel pump.
> >
>
> One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of
> the guys with water cooled engines over the last year or two is a
> possible perception that if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS
> to be better.
>
> Indy racers (and others I guess) use little or no antifreeze as they
> aren't concerned with freezing or corrosion and antifreeze INHIBITS
> cooling. The more antifreeze % you have the larger radiator you have
> to have for a given btu input, The pressures are higher but the max
> heat rejection is with no antifreeze. I wonder how many of the
> Rotax/Soob drivers have been chasing a problem they don't really
> have. I'm not trying to suggest that anybody is doing something wrong
> .just pointing out a fact of physics that might help someone avoid a
> lot of grief. LOW&SLOW John
>
From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL
damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) with
corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here.
In fact we have below freezing temperature here in winter only a couple
of days a year, and some winters never get to freezing temperature.
All the newer aluminum engined cars use antifreeze.... Now with your
comment got my head all mixed up...
Please will like to get some facts.
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S
Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: fuel fittings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
I've used all-metal Swagelok tube fittings on fuel, oil and brakes: no o-rings
ever. 428. hours on 92 octane mogas and no issues.
GGP
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax recommendation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates <leogates@allvantage.com>
Dave is correct - We (me) sometimes forget why we do things. Rotax says
50/50 is required. I took that as minimum. As I was going to test run
with no cowling, which I assumed would be close to worst case, I
anticipated I might have some cooling problems. The Prestone sold here
on Texas says a max mix of 70/30 will not boil until 275 degrees F. so
I thought that appropriate. As I only encountered a max of 210 F. this
turned out to be a waste of antifreeze. I anticipate a 50/50 mix for
future test runs/flight.
Leo Gates
Dave Alberti wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
>
>Rotax recommends 50/50 for the 912 and 914 series engines and to never
>exceed the coolant manufacturers mixing rations.
>Dave
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: fuel fittings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I used 1/4 alu tube on the discharge side of the wing tank and used brass
compression fittings. No corrosion due to the oily nature of gasoline.
Where I connected a rubber hose to the solid line I first crushed on a brass
ring from a compression fitting. Removed the fitting and the brass ring
provides the perfect hose barb to stop the hose from slipping off when you
use a hose clamp.
On the last fitting you have to saw the cap off being carfeul not to damage
the alu line.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Pinneo, George [mailto:george.pinneo@ngc.com]
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: fuel fittings
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George"
--> <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
I've used all-metal Swagelok tube fittings on fuel, oil and brakes: no
o-rings ever. 428. hours on 92 octane mogas and no issues.
GGP
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 7/22/03 12:45 PM, Gary Gower at ggower_99@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL
> damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) with
> corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here.
>
>
> Saludos
> Gary Gower
> 701 912S
> Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
>
There are few materials that have a better cooling ability than plain water.
But, using plain water for cooling will, in the long run, lead to corrosion
of internal engine parts. Commercial anti-freeze products also contain
anti-corrosion additives. This is why engine manufacturers recommend using
anti-freeze, even if the engine is never subjected to freezing temperatures.
The main component of anti-freeze, glycol, also increases the boiling point
of the solution and provides lubrication of the water pump components.
Race cars often do not use anti-freeze, but then, corrosion is not a concern
for a race car. The engine only has to last until the end of the race, then
it will probably be overhauled and receive major service.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
Gary Gower wrote:
>>From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL
> damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) with
> corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here.
>
> In fact we have below freezing temperature here in winter only a couple
> of days a year, and some winters never get to freezing temperature.
> All the newer aluminum engined cars use antifreeze.... Now with your
> comment got my head all mixed up...
>
> Please will like to get some facts.
>
> Saludos
The aluminum DOES require some anti-freeze to prevent corrosion, but the
antifreeze reduces the ability of the coolant to cool the engine.
Distilled water will carry more heat away from the metal it comes in
contact with. Antifreeze reduces the amount of heat that the coolant can
carry away, so you need more coolant to do the same cooling job.
Does that make sense, or am I doing a lousy job of explaining it?
Rick P.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Battery Location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" <dkubassek@golden.net>
Thanx for the come back Grant
My battery a G25 is located at the very aft as it can be.
Just ahead of the first bulk head in the fuselage.
Would adjusting my ailerons down a tad have any effect here?
I suppose i could look at adjusting my horiz. stab as well????
dave kubassek C-FDSF/XL/0235
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Thank you all very much, is about what I thought, the idea is more
clear now... I ask by phone to one 912 pilot here and he told me they
all use 50% destiled water and 50% antifreeze.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
--- Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> on 7/22/03 12:45 PM, Gary Gower at ggower_99@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> > From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL
> > damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc)
> with
> > corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here.
> >
> >
> > Saludos
> > Gary Gower
> > 701 912S
> > Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
> >
>
> There are few materials that have a better cooling ability than plain
> water.
> But, using plain water for cooling will, in the long run, lead to
> corrosion
> of internal engine parts. Commercial anti-freeze products also
> contain
> anti-corrosion additives. This is why engine manufacturers recommend
> using
> anti-freeze, even if the engine is never subjected to freezing
> temperatures.
> The main component of anti-freeze, glycol, also increases the boiling
> point
> of the solution and provides lubrication of the water pump
> components.
>
> Race cars often do not use anti-freeze, but then, corrosion is not a
> concern
> for a race car. The engine only has to last until the end of the
> race, then
> it will probably be overhauled and receive major service.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Airframe construction complete.
> Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
> do not archive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
I've been flying 100% antifreeze in my 912 for 430 hours: no issues.
GGP
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax recommendation |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
The additional heat transfer gain more than makes up for the decrease in
boiling point when you go from 70/30 to 50/50. So you'll be better to go
with the 50/50. Below that you start to lose significant corrosion
protection and it could freeze.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed" <orion@silcom.com>
Re the comment "If I could be convinced that the engine would still run with
fuel coming from
the wing tanks with a failed facet pump; I might consider direct transfer to
the gascolator/engine"
FWIW With two locker tanks fitted (no header) I switch off both pumps in
cruise to balance fuel burn and so far no problem with engine driven pump
supplying the engine.
Ed 601hds/lyc
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Rotax Cabin Heat? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63@yahoo.com>
Hello...
On a related subject to all the talk about Rotax coolant: Does the option exist
to route any of that heat from the Rotax liquid-cooled system through a heater
core for cabin heat?
I asked Nick Heintz about this at Oshkosh last year...he did not sound too excited
about the idea. My impression, from the ZAC web-site, is that the standard
cabin heat setup for the Rotax is to use a muff similar to that used for air-cooled
aircraft engines. I have never found that approach to be very effective.
Perhaps any of you Zodiac drivers could comment...how is cold winter flying in
the Zodiac cabin? Does the big canopy just heat up the cabin from sunlight anyway?
I am very close to starting a 601 XL project. Liquid-cooled engine options
attract me partly because there is the possibility of effective cabin heat.
I will be flying mostly around the upper midwest.
Dan
---------------------------------
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@birch.net>
> FWIW With two locker tanks fitted (no header) I switch off both pumps in
> cruise to balance fuel burn and so far no problem with engine driven pump
> supplying the engine.
> Ed 601hds/lyc
++ "Ditto" for me too, except I leave the pumps on while cruising. However,
I have flown it with pumps off at the highest flight angle it will fly at
and it runs like a top. I just leave the pumps on for good measure. I
filled my two wing lockers with 12.3 gallon each tanks. Each tank has a
Facett pump mounted on the rib next to it. I have a fuel selector with L,
R, Both, and Off. I leave the selector on Both, and if one tank is going
down a bit faster than the other one, I just shut off the pump to the one
with the least fuel until they even up.
Regarding the comment from the prior message, ""If I could be convinced that
the engine would still run with
fuel coming from the wing tanks with a failed facet pump; I might consider
direct transfer to
the gascolator/engine" Pick up one of the Facett pumps and blow through it
in the correct direction. It will pass air (or fuel) easily as designed.
do not archive
Fred
Jabiru 3300 powered 601 HDS
Zodie Rocket N601LX now at 60 hours and having a blast!!
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Ed,
Where did you obtain your wing locker tanks? Are 15 gallon tanks available
for each wing? I have the 16 gallon header, and thinking of removing it for
fire safety reasons. There's just something about 16 gallons of fuel above
my lap, springing a leak and spraying the electrical system, and causing a
fire, that concerns me.
Thanks...Dave
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 7/22/03 8:51 AM, "Grant Corriveau" <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
>I think the Jab3300 produces 120 HP?
120 hp is only available for a short period (take-off) but not continuously.
The continuous maximum power available is 100 hp.
DO NOT ACHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL, Jabiru 3300
Construction Log & Photos: <http://home.earthlink.net/~ac6qj/zodiac>
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Under Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Under Construction
===========================================================================
Message 28
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| Subject: | Rotax cabin heat..... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
Before my CH-701 project there was a Genesis (now SlipStream Industries)
using a 912 in the pusher configuration. Cabin heat was NOT a problem. The Rotax
radiator was mounted inside a scoop (actually a "tunnel") underneath. The
scoop has an "in" about where the pilots butt is, and an "out" about 18 inches
aft of that. For heat one simply cut a rectangular hole in the floor aft of
the radiator, installed a door assembly to divert some air into the cabin with
a
lawnmower throttle cable to vary the amount of opening, and therefore the
amount of warmed air entering the cabin. Very good heat source, no leaking muff
worries, and I have begun to look toward a way to divert some of the air which
goes through the radiator, via a duct & gate, into the cabin on the 701.
Since I don't have the engine & cowl on it yet I'm not sure there is room.
However, gentlemen, you might look at the Genesis method. With OAT in the 20 F
range I had to close the opening somewhat after getting in the air 'cause it
makes more than enough warm.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Zed Smith
701/R912/90% etc
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Fred's fuel system seems like the optimal one to me. That header tank is not
really a gravity system since the 912 carbs are higher than the tank mid
section. If an aircraft with wing locker tanks only had one Facet pump on
each wing tank, plus a third Facet pump to back up the engine pump, there
would be so much pumping redundancy that the failure of 1 pump would not
cause any problems. Could you operate such a system without a fuel selector
valve, and only a fuel shutoff valve in the line just before the gascolator?
Dave
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Cabin Heat? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 7/22/03 8:58 PM, Daniel Vandenberg at djvdb63@yahoo.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello...
>
> On a related subject to all the talk about Rotax coolant: Does the option
> exist to route any of that heat from the Rotax liquid-cooled system through a
> heater core for cabin heat?
>
If you can find a convenient way to pipe it up, it should work. Your best
bet is to use an electric fan to circulate cabin air through the core and
back into the cabin. Piping outside air through the core and then into the
cabin may not work too well because the air may be moving too fast past the
core to pick up enough heat. You may also have to block off some air flow
through the main radiator in the winter to keep the water hot enough to
provide effective cabin heat. On the Subaru, you can simply tap into the 3/4
inch bypass line to supply the heater core. I don't know if a similar setup
exists on the Rotax.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Welding order (701)... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" <jari.kaija@pp.inet.fi>
Just wondering. What will be an easiest welding sequence for
landing gear & wing strut mounting parts? I'm going to start
TIG-weld it tomorrow...
http://www.project-ch701.net/ch701_fuselage/big_maingear7.jpg
-Jari / 701SP / OH-XJJ
www.jarikaija.com
www.project-ch701.net
(Spammers! All spam messages will be deleted automatically
from server, so, save your miserable time...)
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Sharpe" <fly601@rogers.com>
Dave,
My 601HD has only leading edge wing tanks with a facet pump at the
outlet of each tank, and no header tank. I don't have a fuel selector
valve, rather I have a shutoff valve - motorcycle type - in each fuel line.
From the shutoff valves the two fuel lines T together then go the
gascolator, then on to the engine driven fuel pump. It's simple and works
well. Although I prefer to run the facet pumps all the time, I can turn off
both facet pumps and the engine driven pump will draw fuel through the facet
pumps all day long.
Paul Sharpe
C-IABP / CH601HD / Rotax 912S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Could you operate such a system without a fuel selector
> valve, and only a fuel shutoff valve in the line just before the
gascolator?
>
> Dave
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 7/22/03 3:56 PM, Dave Kubassek at dkubassek@golden.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" <dkubassek@golden.net>
>
> Thanx for the come back Grant
> My battery a G25 is located at the very aft as it can be.
If you've got enough elevator authority to drag the tail on the ground on
take-off and landing you certainly don't need any more weight in the tail
than you already have, in fact you might have more than you need now.
> Would adjusting my ailerons down a tad have any effect here?
> I suppose i could look at adjusting my horiz. stab as well????
> dave kubassek C-FDSF/XL/0235
>
The usual way to fix a forward CG problem is to either add ballast or to
increase the "tail volume" by moving the horizontal stabilizer further back
and/or by increasing its area. The CG is too far forward if you have have to
use excessive elevator deflection to raise the nose for takeoff or the
landing flare at normal takeoff or landing speeds. A forward CG will
increase your take off and landing speeds and distances.
By the way, an aft CG is much more dangerous because it can make the plane
unstable in flight and is not as easy to detect before you become airborne.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior.
do not archive.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Rotax Cabin Heat? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@comcast.net>
Take a look at the RANS line of airplanes. There is an option for the S6 and
the S7 for cabin heat using a small "radiator" or heater core inside the
cabin with a fan blowing on it. You can turn the heat on and off with the
use of a valve. I've seen the setup in a Rans S7 and the owner was very
pleased with it.
Mark
601 XL N996XL (reserved)
Empennage finished, working on first wing.
do not archive
Hello...
On a related subject to all the talk about Rotax coolant: Does the option
exist to route any of that heat from the Rotax liquid-cooled system through
a heater core for cabin heat?
Message 35
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 horsepower |
Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:04:12 -0400
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
120 hp is only available for a short period (take-off) but not continuously.
The continuous maximum power available is 100 hp.
WRONG
Jabiru Installation Manual page 18, under 4.1 Engine Ratings
"4.1.1 Takeoff/Max Continuous 107 HP/2750 RPM"
Pete and Ben Krotje of USJabiru regularly run the 3300 in their demonstrator J200
at 2900RPM.
A correctly propped HDS/3300 will blow the doors off of anything else (engine wise)
in the 601 series.
Regards jeff do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
I think that's the way I will do my fuel system, Paul. Sounds pretty simple
and trouble-free. Does anyone know a source to purchase 12-15 gallon wing
locker tanks? Is anyone interested in purchasing my aluminum 16 gallon
header tank? :{)
Thanks...Dave
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@birch.net>
If an aircraft with wing locker tanks only had one Facet pump on
> each wing tank, plus a third Facet pump to back up the engine pump, there
> would be so much pumping redundancy that the failure of 1 pump would not
> cause any problems.
++ How much redundancy do you need. (3) Facetts plus the engine pump = 4
!!!
>Could you operate such a system without a fuel selector
> valve, and only a fuel shutoff valve in the line just before the
gascolator?
++ I have a fuel selector and don't use it. As mentioned, I manage the 2
wing tank pumps to even up the fuel levels. The only time I would actually
NEED the selector would be during a forced landing (OFF position).
Therefore, I sincerely hope I never have to use the selector.
Fred
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 horsepower |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63@yahoo.com>
Gentlemen...
Several questions & thoughts about this:
First...according to ZAC's XL website, the Jab 3300 produces 100 hp at 2750 rpm, and 110 at 3000 rpm: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/3300.html
Second...is this at odds with the Jabiru 3300 manual?
Third...correct me if I am wrong...but it is my impression that, although the 3300
does produce 120 hp at 3300 rpm, that in actual practice it is impossible
or inadvisable to get the prop going that fast...therefore the 3300 is in reality
about a 105 - 110 hp engine max for takeoff...and slightly less is available
for continuous use.
Fourth...on the Matronics Seaplane-list last week, Chip Erwin of Czech Aircraft Works (produces Zenith aiplanes for the European market) replied to my inquiry that, at least on floats, he gets BETTER thrust and low-speed/takeoff performance from the 912S, and prefers it to the Jab 3300. Slightly ess speed at the high end, of course. He has flown XL's with both engines: http://www.matronics.com/digest/seaplane-list/Digest.Seaplane-List.2003-07-14.html#MESSAGE1
Dan
Jeff Small <zodiacjeff@msn.com> wrote:
---------------------------------
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@birch.net>
> Where did you obtain your wing locker tanks?
++ Glad you asked.... This is an opportunity to show another example of why
everybody should be involved with an EAA Technical Councilor. I discussed
it with him, he instructed me to make a pair of simple wooden tank shapes
that fit each wing locker. (you don't need to make those mock-up complete
on all sides, just rigid enough to hold the needed shape and dimensions so
that a metal tank like it can be made) I delivered the mock-ups to him and
he welded up the tanks for me.
do not arcive
Fred
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Fred,
Can you supply the name of the EAA Tech who made your tanks? I may be
interested in contacting him. By the way, how much did he charge to weld the
tanks (including materials)?
Thanks....Dave
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 horsepower |
Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:41:45 -0400
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Dan,
First...according to ZAC's XL website, the Jab 3300 produces 100 hp at 2750 rpm, and 110 at 3000 rpm: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/3300.html
Yep, and in another place on fwf kits they say 105 hp at 2800 rpm.
Second...is this at odds with the Jabiru 3300 manual?
Slightly, as my Installation Manual Jabiru 3300 Aero Engines says what I quoted
in previous post. My engine is 33A051 and around 33A070 the company made a minor
induction system change that lowered (supposedly) the rpm for top hp. Then
a later change in combustion chamber design upped hp by 7 horsepower in some
of the first to receive the mod. Jab has never upped their figures though.
In the Instruction and Maintenance Manual for Jabiru 3300 Aircraft Engine on page
9 is the same info - "Continuous RPM 80kW (107hp) @ 2750 RPM" and "Intermittent
90 kW (120hp) @ 3300 RPM.
Also, in the same Installation Manual (page 11) and on www.jabiru.net.au you will find a "Jabiru 3300 Aero Engine Performance Curve" that shows hp of about 107 @2750 and 110 @ 2800.
Third...correct me if I am wrong...but it is my impression that, although the 3300
does produce 120 hp at 3300 rpm, that in actual practice it is impossible
or inadvisable to get the prop going that fast...therefore the 3300 is in reality
about a 105 - 110 hp engine max for takeoff...and slightly less is available
for continuous use.
I guess this has been around ever since the first strong VW conversion slung a
club. You simply do not run this engine (3300) beyond 3100 rpm, and then only
for short duration. WOT on mine sees 3080 to 3110 rpm. I climb at 2750 and
cruise there if I want to go somewhere. Up it to 2850 if I want to go a bit faster.
Slow to 2600 if I want to enjoy what Zodie Rockets do the best - share
the fun. Chase cows around Pennsylvania at 2300 rpm and 98 to 100 mph.
The 912S is rated at 100 hp for only five minutes if I remember correctly - may
be off here but it's basically a 95 hp engine. Zodies are so draggy that anything
over 95 hp is not going to get you anywhere much faster.
Fourth...on the Matronics Seaplane-list last week, Chip Erwin of Czech Aircraft
Works (produces Zenith airplanes for the European market) replied to my inquiry
that, at least on floats, he gets BETTER thrust and low-speed/takeoff performance
from the 912S, and prefers it to the Jab 3300. Slightly less speed at
the high end, of course. He has flown XL's with both engines:
This would be Chip's area of expertise and he's done fantastically with it. However,
isn't the 912S wearing a very complex and expen$ive variable pitch prop?
I like K.I.S.S. and will stick to a simple two-blade fixed club. Note that
he said, "...at least on floats."
Keep up your interest in the Jab.
Regards jeff
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Transfer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
Dave:
Yes, a facet pump is installed in series. So, header tank, gascolator, fuel
filter, Facet pump (low pressure one), fuel flow indicator pickup, engine
pump.
Stan
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