---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/22/03: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:07 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (jnbolding1) 2. 08:08 AM - Wing Tank Transfer (Schallgren@aol.com) 3. 08:14 AM - Re: Update on XL (Grant Corriveau) 4. 08:24 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (Leo Gates) 5. 08:27 AM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 6. 08:31 AM - Re: fuel fittings (Doon47@aol.com) 7. 08:39 AM - Rotax recommendation (Dave Alberti) 8. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: Update on XL (Grant Corriveau) 9. 08:52 AM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Grant Corriveau) 10. 09:04 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (Grant Corriveau) 11. 09:36 AM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Gary Gower) 12. 09:41 AM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 13. 10:45 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) (Gary Gower) 14. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: fuel fittings (Pinneo, George) 15. 11:15 AM - Re: Rotax recommendation (Leo Gates) 16. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: fuel fittings (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 17. 11:33 AM - Re: antifreeze (Bryan Martin) 18. 11:43 AM - Re: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) (Rick Pitcher) 19. 12:57 PM - Battery Location (Dave Kubassek) 20. 03:59 PM - Re: antifreeze (Gary Gower) 21. 04:34 PM - Re: antifreeze (Pinneo, George) 22. 04:58 PM - Re: Rotax recommendation (Dave Austin) 23. 05:11 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Ed) 24. 05:58 PM - Rotax Cabin Heat? (Daniel Vandenberg) 25. 06:09 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Fred or Sandy Hulen) 26. 06:12 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 27. 06:19 PM - Re: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS (Ray Montagne) 28. 06:19 PM - Rotax cabin heat..... (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 29. 06:23 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 30. 06:35 PM - Re: Rotax Cabin Heat? (Bryan Martin) 31. 06:56 PM - Welding order (701)... (Jari Kaija) 32. 07:01 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Paul Sharpe) 33. 07:12 PM - Re: Battery Location (Bryan Martin) 34. 07:22 PM - Re: Rotax Cabin Heat? (Mark Stauffer) 35. 08:03 PM - Jabiru 3300 horsepower (Jeff Small) 36. 08:15 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 37. 08:27 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Fred or Sandy Hulen) 38. 08:38 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 horsepower (Daniel Vandenberg) 39. 08:44 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Fred or Sandy Hulen) 40. 09:12 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Dave Pepper) 41. 09:41 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 horsepower (Jeff Small) 42. 09:46 PM - Re: Wing Tank Transfer (Schallgren@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:19 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" >N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight >adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze and >30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I used >an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the inlet >side of the engine fuel pump. > One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of the guys with water cooled engines over the last year or two is a possible perception that if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS to be better. Indy racers (and others I guess) use little or no antifreeze as they aren't concerned with freezing or corrosion and antifreeze INHIBITS cooling. The more antifreeze % you have the larger radiator you have to have for a given btu input, The pressures are higher but the max heat rejection is with no antifreeze. I wonder how many of the Rotax/Soob drivers have been chasing a problem they don't really have. I'm not trying to suggest that anybody is doing something wrong .just pointing out a fact of physics that might help someone avoid a lot of grief. LOW&SLOW John ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:48 AM PST US From: Schallgren@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com Dave: Your statement: "Stan, I guess it doesn't really matter where the wing tank fuel is pumped. If that tank's Facet pump fails, no fuel will end up in the carbs, since there is no way to pump fuel to either the header tank or the gascolator." My Reply: The advantage to the header tank is that I should have a lot of fuel remaining in it when the wing tank transfer pump fails. Normally, I start transfer from a wing tank when the header is down to about 8 gallons. I then transfer 4 gallons to the header. If there is no transfer I have about 1.3 hours and 150 miles to find an alternate airport. If I could be convinced that the engine would still run with fuel coming from the wing tanks with a failed facet pump; I might consider direct transfer to the gascolator/engine. Stan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Update on XL From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" > > For those of you enquiring > An update on the flight testing of C-FDSF 601XL > w/Lyc 0235. > We now have a grand total of 6.5 hrs on tach. Thanks -- good report! I hate to see you lose 20lbs of payload -- isn't there a way to move the battery back a little further to get the necessary c of g? I also have a heavy engine (CAM100) and have dual RGB batteries located in the tail just aft of the rear baggage bulkhead and my c of g is just fine (HDS). Where is your battery located? Happy flying and please keep giving us the reports! -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:35 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates jnbolding1 wrote: >One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of the guys with water cooled engines over the last year or two is a possible perception that if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS to be better. > >I am not chasing an over heat problem. Rotax recommendation is 70% antfreeze. I think boing point is the issue - prestone says 70% mix will boil at 275 degrees F. > Leo Gates Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:06 AM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Good point, Stan. Also, did you install another Facet pump as a backup to, and in series with, the engine-driven pump, in case the engine pump fails? I know that many builders are doing this, installing a backup pump either in series or in parallel with the engine pump. Thanks.....Dave ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:59 AM PST US From: Doon47@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: fuel fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Doon47@aol.com I've started assembling the fuel system in my 701 and have noted the absence of o-rings. What are listers using to seal fuel fittings - especially those with engines using auto fuel CHIP MULDOON doon47@aol.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:16 AM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax recommendation --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" Rotax recommends 50/50 for the 912 and 914 series engines and to never exceed the coolant manufacturers mixing rations. Dave >I am not chasing an over heat problem. Rotax recommendation is 70% antfreeze. I think boing point is the issue - prestone says 70% mix will boil at 275 degrees F. > Leo Gates ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:51 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Update on XL From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > ...I think > the HDS just runs out of wing at gross weight on a hot day. Certainly at > 9000ft density altiude the plane is flying well nose high just to maintain > altitude. I noticed this nose-high attitude in my first few flights and I've adjusted my ailerons 'down' a tad on both sides just to get a more comfortable body attitude. Re-- 'running out of wing' .... I've been wondering what a wing-tip fence or vertical extension might do. This aircraft has a small aspect ratio and one way to increase it effectively, is to add and end vertically. This doesn't complicate the wing aerodynamics of lift, but MIGHT/SHOULD reduce the wingtip vortex drag... so the theory goes... If I ever get other issues all worked out and feel like becoming a test pilot one day.... ;-) I wonder if the factory has every tried adding some sort of tip fence? I think one of the Mikes (FRND?) has modified his wingtips in some manner.... -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com > I do not support the statement quoted below: ... > Stan > 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49 Stan, For a more accurate assessment - you should take into account the fact that with a Jab3300 engine you are using significantly more HorsePower than Zenith bases their specs on for this airplane. The original speed claims were based on an 80 HP Rotax. I think the Jab3300 produces 120 HP? that's a 50% increase to get those last 10-20 mph that were 'promised' ;-) fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau >> N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight >> adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze and >> 30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I used >> an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the inlet >> side of the engine fuel pump. >> > > One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of the guys > with water cooled engines over the last year or two is a possible perception > that if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS to be better. The 'Prestone' antifreeze sold in these parts (Canada) usually recommend a 50% mix for the best balance of protection from +40C to -40C.. fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:05 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Stan, Your mail is a keeper in the archives! Our next project a 601 XL is almost on its way from ZAC... The 701 is almost finished. Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S. Do not archive. --- Schallgren@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com > > List: > > I do not support the statement quoted below: > > "Looking back now over the past ten years, I am certain that air > speed is the > only thing ZAC has been consciously deceptive about. Claiming a > cruise of 140 > for the prototype HDS wasn't fair to us. The 135 they lowered it to > is still > out of reach for all but the rare bird." > > Ours gets the 135 at the minimum and has gotten up to 140 mph (GPS > confirmed) > at 7,500'. A change of the original Prince prop to a Sensenich > increased > the speed significantly and wheel pants added another 5 mph. Will > be > interested to see what the sea level speeds will be as even the > Prince prop did great > coming out of OSH last year. > > Quality of build, empty weight, engine, altitude and temp are all > critical > factors in determining the cruise speed. Think we should consider a > flyoff at > the Open House Hangar day this year at Mexico to see how many 'rare > birds' > there are. > > > Stan > 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49 > 125 hours > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:37 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Hmm.....We are currently looking for our next plane. Marriage is an awesome but interesting instituion....Of course my Wife's ideal plane is a four seat so we can take our "friends" on our camping trips. My Wife is not a pilot and has a somewhat romantic dream, i.e a four seat big enough to take four folks plus all their gear is really a six seat airplane which would represent less than 1% of our flying. But of course using the Wife's "ideal" plane means doing 99% of our flying burning 20 gallons an hour. My ideal plane involves our "friends" buying their own plane or driving....Finally "she who must be obeyed" saw the error in her dream and realised the shortcomings of the zodiac as we flogged up over the mountains in the dark at 9000ft density altitude doing about 75mph into a headwind. So we were almost at the RV 7 decision when she said...doesn't ZAC have a 4 seat design? Groan....and of course she is now looking at the claimed 150mph cruise and telling me its "plenty fast enough". Of course my darling missus does not have the experience of claimed 16000ft ceilings and 140mph cruise on only 80 rubber bands and being very disappointed after nearly 1000 hours of work. I hope I can disuade her 'cos I would literally hate building a plane I just know the designer has a big track record of highly exagerated claims. As I said earlier, the 601 has a lot going for it but the reality vs the claims will have me searching for a different designer next time. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Grant Corriveau [mailto:grantc@ca.inter.net] Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com > I do not support the statement quoted below: ... > Stan > 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300/Sensenich 64/49 Stan, For a more accurate assessment - you should take into account the fact that with a Jab3300 engine you are using significantly more HorsePower than Zenith bases their specs on for this airplane. The original speed claims were based on an 80 HP Rotax. I think the Jab3300 produces 120 HP? that's a 50% increase to get those last 10-20 mph that were 'promised' ;-) fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:44 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower --- jnbolding1 wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" > > > > >N601Z (Tail dragger kit), Rotax 912UL. 74" Magnum Ivoprop (in-flight > > >adjustable), Castrol Superbike oil, 70 percent Prestone anti-freeze > and > >30 percent distilled water, 87 Octane Chevron unleaded autogas. I > used > >an off-board 1 gal. fuel can and Facet fuel pump plumbed to the > inlet > >side of the engine fuel pump. > > > > One of the things that I've noticed from the comments from some of > the guys with water cooled engines over the last year or two is a > possible perception that if "some antifreeze" is good then "more" HAS > to be better. > > Indy racers (and others I guess) use little or no antifreeze as they > aren't concerned with freezing or corrosion and antifreeze INHIBITS > cooling. The more antifreeze % you have the larger radiator you have > to have for a given btu input, The pressures are higher but the max > heat rejection is with no antifreeze. I wonder how many of the > Rotax/Soob drivers have been chasing a problem they don't really > have. I'm not trying to suggest that anybody is doing something wrong > .just pointing out a fact of physics that might help someone avoid a > lot of grief. LOW&SLOW John > From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) with corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here. In fact we have below freezing temperature here in winter only a couple of days a year, and some winters never get to freezing temperature. All the newer aluminum engined cars use antifreeze.... Now with your comment got my head all mixed up... Please will like to get some facts. Saludos Gary Gower 701 912S Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. __________________________________ http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:10 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: fuel fittings From: "Pinneo, George" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" I've used all-metal Swagelok tube fittings on fuel, oil and brakes: no o-rings ever. 428. hours on 92 octane mogas and no issues. GGP ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:44 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax recommendation --> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates Dave is correct - We (me) sometimes forget why we do things. Rotax says 50/50 is required. I took that as minimum. As I was going to test run with no cowling, which I assumed would be close to worst case, I anticipated I might have some cooling problems. The Prestone sold here on Texas says a max mix of 70/30 will not boil until 275 degrees F. so I thought that appropriate. As I only encountered a max of 210 F. this turned out to be a waste of antifreeze. I anticipate a 50/50 mix for future test runs/flight. Leo Gates Dave Alberti wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" > >Rotax recommends 50/50 for the 912 and 914 series engines and to never >exceed the coolant manufacturers mixing rations. >Dave > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:49 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: fuel fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" I used 1/4 alu tube on the discharge side of the wing tank and used brass compression fittings. No corrosion due to the oily nature of gasoline. Where I connected a rubber hose to the solid line I first crushed on a brass ring from a compression fitting. Removed the fitting and the brass ring provides the perfect hose barb to stop the hose from slipping off when you use a hose clamp. On the last fitting you have to saw the cap off being carfeul not to damage the alu line. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Pinneo, George [mailto:george.pinneo@ngc.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: fuel fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" --> I've used all-metal Swagelok tube fittings on fuel, oil and brakes: no o-rings ever. 428. hours on 92 octane mogas and no issues. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: antifreeze From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 7/22/03 12:45 PM, Gary Gower at ggower_99@yahoo.com wrote: > > From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL > damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) with > corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here. > > > Saludos > Gary Gower > 701 912S > Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. > There are few materials that have a better cooling ability than plain water. But, using plain water for cooling will, in the long run, lead to corrosion of internal engine parts. Commercial anti-freeze products also contain anti-corrosion additives. This is why engine manufacturers recommend using anti-freeze, even if the engine is never subjected to freezing temperatures. The main component of anti-freeze, glycol, also increases the boiling point of the solution and provides lubrication of the water pump components. Race cars often do not use anti-freeze, but then, corrosion is not a concern for a race car. The engine only has to last until the end of the race, then it will probably be overhauled and receive major service. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:43 AM PST US From: Rick Pitcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Progress Report - N601Z, CH601HDS (antifreeze) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher Gary Gower wrote: >>From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL > damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) with > corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here. > > In fact we have below freezing temperature here in winter only a couple > of days a year, and some winters never get to freezing temperature. > All the newer aluminum engined cars use antifreeze.... Now with your > comment got my head all mixed up... > > Please will like to get some facts. > > Saludos The aluminum DOES require some anti-freeze to prevent corrosion, but the antifreeze reduces the ability of the coolant to cool the engine. Distilled water will carry more heat away from the metal it comes in contact with. Antifreeze reduces the amount of heat that the coolant can carry away, so you need more coolant to do the same cooling job. Does that make sense, or am I doing a lousy job of explaining it? Rick P. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:14 PM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Zenith-List: Battery Location --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" Thanx for the come back Grant My battery a G25 is located at the very aft as it can be. Just ahead of the first bulk head in the fuselage. Would adjusting my ailerons down a tad have any effect here? I suppose i could look at adjusting my horiz. stab as well???? dave kubassek C-FDSF/XL/0235 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:50 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: antifreeze --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Thank you all very much, is about what I thought, the idea is more clear now... I ask by phone to one 912 pilot here and he told me they all use 50% destiled water and 50% antifreeze. Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. --- Bryan Martin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > > on 7/22/03 12:45 PM, Gary Gower at ggower_99@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > From the car mechanics I have heard for years that plain water WILL > > damage the aluminum parts (water pump, thermostat housing, etc) > with > > corrosion (white foam type), that is why they use antifreeze here. > > > > > > Saludos > > Gary Gower > > 701 912S > > Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico. > > > > There are few materials that have a better cooling ability than plain > water. > But, using plain water for cooling will, in the long run, lead to > corrosion > of internal engine parts. Commercial anti-freeze products also > contain > anti-corrosion additives. This is why engine manufacturers recommend > using > anti-freeze, even if the engine is never subjected to freezing > temperatures. > The main component of anti-freeze, glycol, also increases the boiling > point > of the solution and provides lubrication of the water pump > components. > > Race cars often do not use anti-freeze, but then, corrosion is not a > concern > for a race car. The engine only has to last until the end of the > race, then > it will probably be overhauled and receive major service. > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. > Airframe construction complete. > Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. > do not archive. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:28 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: antifreeze From: "Pinneo, George" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Pinneo, George" I've been flying 100% antifreeze in my 912 for 430 hours: no issues. GGP ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:11 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax recommendation --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" The additional heat transfer gain more than makes up for the decrease in boiling point when you go from 70/30 to 50/50. So you'll be better to go with the 50/50. Below that you start to lose significant corrosion protection and it could freeze. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:32 PM PST US From: "Ed" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed" Re the comment "If I could be convinced that the engine would still run with fuel coming from the wing tanks with a failed facet pump; I might consider direct transfer to the gascolator/engine" FWIW With two locker tanks fitted (no header) I switch off both pumps in cruise to balance fuel burn and so far no problem with engine driven pump supplying the engine. Ed 601hds/lyc do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:14 PM PST US From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax Cabin Heat? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Hello... On a related subject to all the talk about Rotax coolant: Does the option exist to route any of that heat from the Rotax liquid-cooled system through a heater core for cabin heat? I asked Nick Heintz about this at Oshkosh last year...he did not sound too excited about the idea. My impression, from the ZAC web-site, is that the standard cabin heat setup for the Rotax is to use a muff similar to that used for air-cooled aircraft engines. I have never found that approach to be very effective. Perhaps any of you Zodiac drivers could comment...how is cold winter flying in the Zodiac cabin? Does the big canopy just heat up the cabin from sunlight anyway? I am very close to starting a 601 XL project. Liquid-cooled engine options attract me partly because there is the possibility of effective cabin heat. I will be flying mostly around the upper midwest. Dan --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:36 PM PST US From: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" > FWIW With two locker tanks fitted (no header) I switch off both pumps in > cruise to balance fuel burn and so far no problem with engine driven pump > supplying the engine. > Ed 601hds/lyc ++ "Ditto" for me too, except I leave the pumps on while cruising. However, I have flown it with pumps off at the highest flight angle it will fly at and it runs like a top. I just leave the pumps on for good measure. I filled my two wing lockers with 12.3 gallon each tanks. Each tank has a Facett pump mounted on the rib next to it. I have a fuel selector with L, R, Both, and Off. I leave the selector on Both, and if one tank is going down a bit faster than the other one, I just shut off the pump to the one with the least fuel until they even up. Regarding the comment from the prior message, ""If I could be convinced that the engine would still run with fuel coming from the wing tanks with a failed facet pump; I might consider direct transfer to the gascolator/engine" Pick up one of the Facett pumps and blow through it in the correct direction. It will pass air (or fuel) easily as designed. do not archive Fred Jabiru 3300 powered 601 HDS Zodie Rocket N601LX now at 60 hours and having a blast!! ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:50 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Ed, Where did you obtain your wing locker tanks? Are 15 gallon tanks available for each wing? I have the 16 gallon header, and thinking of removing it for fire safety reasons. There's just something about 16 gallons of fuel above my lap, springing a leak and spraying the electrical system, and causing a fire, that concerns me. Thanks...Dave ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Factory Claimed Speed of 601 HDS From: Ray Montagne --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne On 7/22/03 8:51 AM, "Grant Corriveau" wrote: >I think the Jab3300 produces 120 HP? 120 hp is only available for a short period (take-off) but not continuously. The continuous maximum power available is 100 hp. DO NOT ACHIVE Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA =========================================================================== Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL, Jabiru 3300 Construction Log & Photos: Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Under Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Left Wing Under Construction =========================================================================== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:02 PM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax cabin heat..... --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Before my CH-701 project there was a Genesis (now SlipStream Industries) using a 912 in the pusher configuration. Cabin heat was NOT a problem. The Rotax radiator was mounted inside a scoop (actually a "tunnel") underneath. The scoop has an "in" about where the pilots butt is, and an "out" about 18 inches aft of that. For heat one simply cut a rectangular hole in the floor aft of the radiator, installed a door assembly to divert some air into the cabin with a lawnmower throttle cable to vary the amount of opening, and therefore the amount of warmed air entering the cabin. Very good heat source, no leaking muff worries, and I have begun to look toward a way to divert some of the air which goes through the radiator, via a duct & gate, into the cabin on the 701. Since I don't have the engine & cowl on it yet I'm not sure there is room. However, gentlemen, you might look at the Genesis method. With OAT in the 20 F range I had to close the opening somewhat after getting in the air 'cause it makes more than enough warm. DO NOT ARCHIVE Zed Smith 701/R912/90% etc ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:40 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Fred's fuel system seems like the optimal one to me. That header tank is not really a gravity system since the 912 carbs are higher than the tank mid section. If an aircraft with wing locker tanks only had one Facet pump on each wing tank, plus a third Facet pump to back up the engine pump, there would be so much pumping redundancy that the failure of 1 pump would not cause any problems. Could you operate such a system without a fuel selector valve, and only a fuel shutoff valve in the line just before the gascolator? Dave ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax Cabin Heat? From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 7/22/03 8:58 PM, Daniel Vandenberg at djvdb63@yahoo.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg > > Hello... > > On a related subject to all the talk about Rotax coolant: Does the option > exist to route any of that heat from the Rotax liquid-cooled system through a > heater core for cabin heat? > If you can find a convenient way to pipe it up, it should work. Your best bet is to use an electric fan to circulate cabin air through the core and back into the cabin. Piping outside air through the core and then into the cabin may not work too well because the air may be moving too fast past the core to pick up enough heat. You may also have to block off some air flow through the main radiator in the winter to keep the water hot enough to provide effective cabin heat. On the Subaru, you can simply tap into the 3/4 inch bypass line to supply the heater core. I don't know if a similar setup exists on the Rotax. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:32 PM PST US From: "Jari Kaija" Subject: Zenith-List: Welding order (701)... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jari Kaija" Just wondering. What will be an easiest welding sequence for landing gear & wing strut mounting parts? I'm going to start TIG-weld it tomorrow... http://www.project-ch701.net/ch701_fuselage/big_maingear7.jpg -Jari / 701SP / OH-XJJ www.jarikaija.com www.project-ch701.net (Spammers! All spam messages will be deleted automatically from server, so, save your miserable time...) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:47 PM PST US From: "Paul Sharpe" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Sharpe" Dave, My 601HD has only leading edge wing tanks with a facet pump at the outlet of each tank, and no header tank. I don't have a fuel selector valve, rather I have a shutoff valve - motorcycle type - in each fuel line. From the shutoff valves the two fuel lines T together then go the gascolator, then on to the engine driven fuel pump. It's simple and works well. Although I prefer to run the facet pumps all the time, I can turn off both facet pumps and the engine driven pump will draw fuel through the facet pumps all day long. Paul Sharpe C-IABP / CH601HD / Rotax 912S ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Pepper" Could you operate such a system without a fuel selector > valve, and only a fuel shutoff valve in the line just before the gascolator? > > Dave ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Battery Location From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 7/22/03 3:56 PM, Dave Kubassek at dkubassek@golden.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" > > Thanx for the come back Grant > My battery a G25 is located at the very aft as it can be. If you've got enough elevator authority to drag the tail on the ground on take-off and landing you certainly don't need any more weight in the tail than you already have, in fact you might have more than you need now. > Would adjusting my ailerons down a tad have any effect here? > I suppose i could look at adjusting my horiz. stab as well???? > dave kubassek C-FDSF/XL/0235 > The usual way to fix a forward CG problem is to either add ballast or to increase the "tail volume" by moving the horizontal stabilizer further back and/or by increasing its area. The CG is too far forward if you have have to use excessive elevator deflection to raise the nose for takeoff or the landing flare at normal takeoff or landing speeds. A forward CG will increase your take off and landing speeds and distances. By the way, an aft CG is much more dangerous because it can make the plane unstable in flight and is not as easy to detect before you become airborne. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:38 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax Cabin Heat? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Take a look at the RANS line of airplanes. There is an option for the S6 and the S7 for cabin heat using a small "radiator" or heater core inside the cabin with a fan blowing on it. You can turn the heat on and off with the use of a valve. I've seen the setup in a Rans S7 and the owner was very pleased with it. Mark 601 XL N996XL (reserved) Empennage finished, working on first wing. do not archive Hello... On a related subject to all the talk about Rotax coolant: Does the option exist to route any of that heat from the Rotax liquid-cooled system through a heater core for cabin heat? ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:43 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 horsepower Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 23:04:12 -0400 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" 120 hp is only available for a short period (take-off) but not continuously. The continuous maximum power available is 100 hp. WRONG Jabiru Installation Manual page 18, under 4.1 Engine Ratings "4.1.1 Takeoff/Max Continuous 107 HP/2750 RPM" Pete and Ben Krotje of USJabiru regularly run the 3300 in their demonstrator J200 at 2900RPM. A correctly propped HDS/3300 will blow the doors off of anything else (engine wise) in the 601 series. Regards jeff do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:27 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" I think that's the way I will do my fuel system, Paul. Sounds pretty simple and trouble-free. Does anyone know a source to purchase 12-15 gallon wing locker tanks? Is anyone interested in purchasing my aluminum 16 gallon header tank? :{) Thanks...Dave ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:36 PM PST US From: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" If an aircraft with wing locker tanks only had one Facet pump on > each wing tank, plus a third Facet pump to back up the engine pump, there > would be so much pumping redundancy that the failure of 1 pump would not > cause any problems. ++ How much redundancy do you need. (3) Facetts plus the engine pump = 4 !!! >Could you operate such a system without a fuel selector > valve, and only a fuel shutoff valve in the line just before the gascolator? ++ I have a fuel selector and don't use it. As mentioned, I manage the 2 wing tank pumps to even up the fuel levels. The only time I would actually NEED the selector would be during a forced landing (OFF position). Therefore, I sincerely hope I never have to use the selector. Fred ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:54 PM PST US From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 horsepower --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Gentlemen... Several questions & thoughts about this: First...according to ZAC's XL website, the Jab 3300 produces 100 hp at 2750 rpm, and 110 at 3000 rpm: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/3300.html Second...is this at odds with the Jabiru 3300 manual? Third...correct me if I am wrong...but it is my impression that, although the 3300 does produce 120 hp at 3300 rpm, that in actual practice it is impossible or inadvisable to get the prop going that fast...therefore the 3300 is in reality about a 105 - 110 hp engine max for takeoff...and slightly less is available for continuous use. Fourth...on the Matronics Seaplane-list last week, Chip Erwin of Czech Aircraft Works (produces Zenith aiplanes for the European market) replied to my inquiry that, at least on floats, he gets BETTER thrust and low-speed/takeoff performance from the 912S, and prefers it to the Jab 3300. Slightly ess speed at the high end, of course. He has flown XL's with both engines: http://www.matronics.com/digest/seaplane-list/Digest.Seaplane-List.2003-07-14.html#MESSAGE1 Dan Jeff Small wrote: --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:05 PM PST US From: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" > Where did you obtain your wing locker tanks? ++ Glad you asked.... This is an opportunity to show another example of why everybody should be involved with an EAA Technical Councilor. I discussed it with him, he instructed me to make a pair of simple wooden tank shapes that fit each wing locker. (you don't need to make those mock-up complete on all sides, just rigid enough to hold the needed shape and dimensions so that a metal tank like it can be made) I delivered the mock-ups to him and he welded up the tanks for me. do not arcive Fred ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:35 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Fred, Can you supply the name of the EAA Tech who made your tanks? I may be interested in contacting him. By the way, how much did he charge to weld the tanks (including materials)? Thanks....Dave ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:21 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Jabiru 3300 horsepower Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:41:45 -0400 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Dan, First...according to ZAC's XL website, the Jab 3300 produces 100 hp at 2750 rpm, and 110 at 3000 rpm: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/3300.html Yep, and in another place on fwf kits they say 105 hp at 2800 rpm. Second...is this at odds with the Jabiru 3300 manual? Slightly, as my Installation Manual Jabiru 3300 Aero Engines says what I quoted in previous post. My engine is 33A051 and around 33A070 the company made a minor induction system change that lowered (supposedly) the rpm for top hp. Then a later change in combustion chamber design upped hp by 7 horsepower in some of the first to receive the mod. Jab has never upped their figures though. In the Instruction and Maintenance Manual for Jabiru 3300 Aircraft Engine on page 9 is the same info - "Continuous RPM 80kW (107hp) @ 2750 RPM" and "Intermittent 90 kW (120hp) @ 3300 RPM. Also, in the same Installation Manual (page 11) and on www.jabiru.net.au you will find a "Jabiru 3300 Aero Engine Performance Curve" that shows hp of about 107 @2750 and 110 @ 2800. Third...correct me if I am wrong...but it is my impression that, although the 3300 does produce 120 hp at 3300 rpm, that in actual practice it is impossible or inadvisable to get the prop going that fast...therefore the 3300 is in reality about a 105 - 110 hp engine max for takeoff...and slightly less is available for continuous use. I guess this has been around ever since the first strong VW conversion slung a club. You simply do not run this engine (3300) beyond 3100 rpm, and then only for short duration. WOT on mine sees 3080 to 3110 rpm. I climb at 2750 and cruise there if I want to go somewhere. Up it to 2850 if I want to go a bit faster. Slow to 2600 if I want to enjoy what Zodie Rockets do the best - share the fun. Chase cows around Pennsylvania at 2300 rpm and 98 to 100 mph. The 912S is rated at 100 hp for only five minutes if I remember correctly - may be off here but it's basically a 95 hp engine. Zodies are so draggy that anything over 95 hp is not going to get you anywhere much faster. Fourth...on the Matronics Seaplane-list last week, Chip Erwin of Czech Aircraft Works (produces Zenith airplanes for the European market) replied to my inquiry that, at least on floats, he gets BETTER thrust and low-speed/takeoff performance from the 912S, and prefers it to the Jab 3300. Slightly less speed at the high end, of course. He has flown XL's with both engines: This would be Chip's area of expertise and he's done fantastically with it. However, isn't the 912S wearing a very complex and expen$ive variable pitch prop? I like K.I.S.S. and will stick to a simple two-blade fixed club. Note that he said, "...at least on floats." Keep up your interest in the Jab. Regards jeff ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:36 PM PST US From: Schallgren@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Wing Tank Transfer --> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com Dave: Yes, a facet pump is installed in series. So, header tank, gascolator, fuel filter, Facet pump (low pressure one), fuel flow indicator pickup, engine pump. Stan