Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:26 AM - Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! (Mark Stauffer)
2. 06:07 AM - Re: Facet pumps (Grant Corriveau)
3. 06:24 AM - Re: Extinguisher (Grant Corriveau)
4. 06:32 AM - Re: Extinguisher (Grant Corriveau)
5. 06:38 AM - Re: Extinguisher (Grant Corriveau)
6. 06:43 AM - Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! (Al Young)
7. 07:10 AM - Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! (Ray Montagne)
8. 08:31 AM - Halon (Brandon Tucker)
9. 08:38 AM - Re: Halon (Ray Montagne)
10. 09:12 AM - Flight After Coumadin (Schallgren@aol.com)
11. 10:19 AM - Re: Extinguisher (Michel Therrien)
12. 03:41 PM - Re: Extinguisher (Gary Gower)
13. 03:57 PM - Re: Extinguisher (Gary Gower)
14. 04:09 PM - Re: Halon (caspainhower@aep.com)
15. 04:23 PM - Re: Flight After Coumadin (ZodiacBuilder@aol.com)
16. 05:25 PM - Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! (Chuck Deiterich)
17. 05:40 PM - 801: Rear Fuselage...Squaring Forward HT Frames Horizontally and (Scott and Valeree Stout)
18. 07:11 PM - Re: Halon (Michel Therrien)
19. 07:26 PM - Re: Extinguisher (Hal Rozema)
Message 1
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| Subject: | ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@comcast.net>
It's a newsletter that ANYONE can sign up for, both owners/builders and
prospective buyers. Basically it highlights what's been going on at ZAC,
links to current photos, next rudder workshops, etc.
Mark
601XL N996XL (reserved)
Tail finished, flaps and ailerons finished,
still scratching head on first wing.
>>What the heck is that newsletter? .......
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> The 40106 pump generates more pressure than the 105. I mistakenly had a 105
> in one of my wing tanks (wint tank direct to engine via the facet, no other
> pumps) and the pressure would drop to zero psi on the guage at full throttle
> running just this pump. I never see the 106's drop below 3 psi.
One more point of interest regarding pumps and plumbing...
I had the more powerful 45gph Facet on my firewall to play the role of
'engine pump' (i.e. no mechanical pump on my engine). I have a Facet 105/6?
at each fuel tank for positive pressure/balancing.
I discovered that with both the wing pumps AND the firewall pump on, my fuel
line pressure was adding up to more than the carburettor limit of 5 psi.
I've replaced the 45gph Facet on the firewall with a third 105/6 Facet and
now the system operates as originally intended - i.e. all pumps on full time
except for balancing (if required).
Moral of the story: take into account the adding of pressures for pumps
mounted in series.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
...
> I was told that the problem with a Halon extinguisher
> in a CH601 is that there is too much ventilation in
> this aircraft. Halon absorbs oxygen, which supports
> fire (not me speaking as the expert, but that's what's
> been told to me by some who pretend to be). So, if
> you're in a sealed cabin, then you are also out of O2.
> But if there is too much ventilation, the
> extinguisher is ineffective. Does this make sense?
No, it doesn't match my experience with Halon Extinguishers. Airliners in
Canada (and the world?) are still equipped with Halon 1211. I have
conducted training courses putting out actual fires (much larger than
anything I ever expect to see (and survive!) inside a Zodiac. The Halon
knocked the fire down almost immediately. It doesn't have to KEEP oxygen
away from the fire for a long time to BREAK the chain reaction.
We were doing this training outside with the fire set inside a typical
airline galley unit with the door removed - i.e. highly ventilated. The
fire was lit (by a professional fireman btw!) and given a few seconds to
grow. Then the trainee would move in and attack the base of the flame with a
sweeping motion. One or two sweeps (i.e. a couple of seconds) and the fire
was out.
Yes, Halon produces toxic fumes so it is important to ensure ADEQUATE
VENTILATION ASAP after discharge. Given the ventilation characteristics of
the Zodiac (mine at least ;-), I think Halon would work very well and with a
vent or two open immediately after use, should not provide any worse 'side
effects' than THE FIRE itself!! ;-)
My opinion only fwiw.
BTW Michel - where did you purchase your Halon extinguisher? In Montreal? I
need one. Thanks,
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> Still, the powder will create a huge mess.
>
do not archive
If you recall the 'Gimli Glider' -- an Air Canada B767 that ran out of fuel
and glided to a sucessful landing at Gimli Manitoba -- the WWII training
airport has one original concrete runway (i.e. very hard to see from a
distance) and the parallel runway is a nicely renewed ashphalt surface used
as a Drag Strip (guess which one the pilot could see from a distance and
landed on! ;-)...
So, anyways during the landing rollout the nosegear was damaged by the
guard-rail along the center of the drag strip and the nose came down, and
there was some smoke from below the cockpit floor etc...
After the pax were evacuated, the pilots dishcharged their own extinguishers
into this area, and several others that were handed to them by the Drag
Racers.... several different types. The pilots were obviously determined
that after surviving this harrowing experience they weren't going to sit
around and watch their aircraft burn up!
The investigation afterwards revealed that there really wasn't a fire, and
the different chemical reactions from the various extinguishers caused more
damage to the electrical components than the actual nose gear collapse... oh
well! Bettter safe than sorry! ;-)
fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
...
> (to
> have a fire, three things are needed, oxygen, a
> combustible and heat).
Some extinguishers work by 'smothering' the fire (i.e. dry chemical powder);
some work by reducing the components below their 'flash point' temperature
(i.e. water), and others work by instantaneously reacting with the heat to
produce a chemical reaction that momentarily absorbs the oxygen and breaks
the chain reaction (i.e Halon).
Or so I've been taught... fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Ray- Was at Mexico, MO yesterday. Here are a couple of pix regarding new
stuff Al Young- 601xl
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 7/26/03 6:43 AM, "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net> wrote:
> Here are a couple of pix regarding new stuff
Pics (or any email attachment) can't be passed through the list (that is
what photoshare is for). I saw what is posted on the website though (it is
in the update section for the XL). Thanks anyway!
DO NOT ACHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL, Jabiru 3300
Construction Log & Photos: <http://home.earthlink.net/~ac6qj/zodiac>
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Under Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Under Construction
===========================================================================
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
List,
It is true that most commercial aircraft us Halon for fire suppression, but
there is one major difference between passenger aircraft and most Zodiac's out
there -- Oxygen system. If you have an oxygen system built in, Halon away.
If you do not, you run a significant risk of hypoxia and losing consciousness.
The idea with halon is to displace oxygen element from the fire triangle.
The problem is that you displace oxygen from the lungs as well. If you are talented
enough to hold your breath long enough for the fire to go out, you will
still have to vventilateshortly thereafter and run the risk of a rre flashwith
little or no agent available for suppression.
IMHO - There are non corrosive dry chemical fire extinguishers out there -
but if there were not, I would much rather replace my entire electrical system
due to corrosion than lose consciousness in flight.
Check out this website for agent information.
http://www.alarm-fire-extinguishers.com/agents.html
Check out what this one says about Halon
http://www.rvaa.com/springwebflash2003.php
Respectfully,
Brandon Tucker
---------------------------------
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 7/26/03 8:29 AM, "Brandon Tucker" <btucke73@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would much rather replace my entire electrical system
> due to corrosion than lose consciousness in flight.
AMEN to that!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL, Jabiru 3300
Construction Log & Photos: <http://home.earthlink.net/~ac6qj/zodiac>
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Under Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Under Construction
===========================================================================
Message 10
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| Subject: | Flight After Coumadin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Schallgren@aol.com
John says:
"Well, It's official.=A0 The flight surgeon has formally told me I'm not to
fly.
Due to my recent surgeries.=A0 Also due to the fact that I'm on Cummadin.
(Hyper-coagular disorder)
They don't think that I will quallify for a waiver.
The appeal proccesscould take 6 months to a year.=A0 So I've decided to sell my
plane.=A0 Perhaps build an XL and hope that the sport pilot classification is
made into a rule."
Ten years ago I started taking coumadin after a double bypass and
installation of a plastic aortic valve. Nine years ago I passed my flight=20physical
and
have every year since. So, it can be done. However, it is an expensive
process and requires a flight surgeon who specializes in difficult Special
Issances as well as a Cardiologist who is familiar with FAA medical requirements.
A special trip to OKC to meet with the Special Issuance people also can be
very helpful. As they told me after doing it the hard way "Why didn't you=20call
us at first, remember we're here to help you".
My plan, should I lose my medical, is to build HD wings for our 601 HDS and
fly on my driver's license.
Good Luck on whatever course you choose.
Stan
601 HDS/Jabiru 3300
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Thanks a lot! Good post. Actual experience is always
welcome and often more useful than theory.
I did not purchase the extinguisher yet... I went to
Safety First and they don't sell Halon anymore. They
sell a replacement that contains FE-36. To get the
same capability as a 1lb Halon extinguisher, you need
to buy a 2.5lbs FE-36 unit, however.
I'm going to Osh and I hope to find one there.
Michel
--- Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> No, it doesn't match my experience with Halon
> Extinguishers....
> BTW Michel - where did you purchase your Halon
> extinguisher? In Montreal? I
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
The important part in using any fire stiguisher is to attack the base
of the fire. Is useless to handle the stinguisher like a mosquito
spray (all over the place), I know it gets very hot, but get as close
as possible to reach that base of the flame, if is not possible, then
is a job for the professional firemen, get as far as you can, you will
not be able to control it...
I important to reach all the base, any fire left will get it back to
maximum fire is seconds.
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau
> <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> > From: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> ...
> > I was told that the problem with a Halon extinguisher
> > in a CH601 is that there is too much ventilation in
> > this aircraft. Halon absorbs oxygen, which supports
> > fire (not me speaking as the expert, but that's what's
> > been told to me by some who pretend to be). So, if
> > you're in a sealed cabin, then you are also out of O2.
> > But if there is too much ventilation, the
> > extinguisher is ineffective. Does this make sense?
>
> No, it doesn't match my experience with Halon Extinguishers.
> Airliners in
> Canada (and the world?) are still equipped with Halon 1211. I have
> conducted training courses putting out actual fires (much larger than
> anything I ever expect to see (and survive!) inside a Zodiac. The
> Halon
> knocked the fire down almost immediately. It doesn't have to KEEP
> oxygen
> away from the fire for a long time to BREAK the chain reaction.
>
> We were doing this training outside with the fire set inside a
> typical
> airline galley unit with the door removed - i.e. highly ventilated.
> The
> fire was lit (by a professional fireman btw!) and given a few seconds
> to
> grow. Then the trainee would move in and attack the base of the flame
> with a
> sweeping motion. One or two sweeps (i.e. a couple of seconds) and the
> fire
> was out.
>
> Yes, Halon produces toxic fumes so it is important to ensure ADEQUATE
> VENTILATION ASAP after discharge. Given the ventilation
> characteristics of
> the Zodiac (mine at least ;-), I think Halon would work very well and
> with a
> vent or two open immediately after use, should not provide any worse
> 'side
> effects' than THE FIRE itself!! ;-)
>
> My opinion only fwiw.
>
> BTW Michel - where did you purchase your Halon extinguisher? In
> Montreal? I
> need one. Thanks,
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Grant,
This is one of the greatest histories in aviantion, I go to tyhe page
once in a while and enjoy reading it. I have it print and give a copy
to the new pilots on the club every time we practice deadstick
landings:
We go about 1,000 ft over the strip and over the mark, then cut the
engine and land, the winner is the one that touches firm (no bounce)
and gets closer to the line, first place (3 axis) in this event (last
May) was a Kitfox 6 912S, that floats like a glider, Alberto Barba is a
great pilot. Trikes are always first place over all.
The last place has to perform at least 3 spot landings in a row (with
engine working) to be able to fly in our strip. This last event the
looser was a pilot with a QuckSilver GT 500 912 80HP.
Is mandatory at least 2 times a year to be able to fly in our club,
there is one about every 4 months, it includes theory and one practice
landing with the instructor (if the plane is two seater).
Saludos
Gary Gower
701 912S
Guadalajara, Jal. Mexico.
--- Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau
> <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> > Still, the powder will create a huge mess.
> >
>
> do not archive
>
> If you recall the 'Gimli Glider' -- an Air Canada B767 that ran out
> of fuel
> and glided to a sucessful landing at Gimli Manitoba -- the WWII
> training
> airport has one original concrete runway (i.e. very hard to see from
> a
> distance) and the parallel runway is a nicely renewed ashphalt
> surface used
> as a Drag Strip (guess which one the pilot could see from a distance
> and
> landed on! ;-)...
>
> So, anyways during the landing rollout the nosegear was damaged by
> the
> guard-rail along the center of the drag strip and the nose came down,
> and
> there was some smoke from below the cockpit floor etc...
>
> After the pax were evacuated, the pilots dishcharged their own
> extinguishers
> into this area, and several others that were handed to them by the
> Drag
> Racers.... several different types. The pilots were obviously
> determined
> that after surviving this harrowing experience they weren't going to
> sit
> around and watch their aircraft burn up!
>
> The investigation afterwards revealed that there really wasn't a
> fire, and
> the different chemical reactions from the various extinguishers
> caused more
> damage to the electrical components than the actual nose gear
> collapse... oh
> well! Bettter safe than sorry! ;-)
>
> fwiw
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 14
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07/26/2003 07:09:03 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
> I would much rather replace my entire electrical system
> due to corrosion than lose consciousness in flight.
I would be more worried about the corrosion in my lungs or trying to see
thru a cloud of chemical dust. The FAA and NFPA recommend halon,
preferably 1301 as it produces fewer toxic by-products, for small aircraft.
The amount needed to extinguish a cockpit fire is not sufficient to render
one unconscious, vs. CO2 for example (according to everything I have read).
Because Halon is similar to freon it will not be available soon, so if that
is your choice you should be buying it soon. Here is another link
specifically dealing with small aircraft firefighting.
Craig
http://www.h3r.com/products/cockpit_fe.htm
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Flight After Coumadin |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZodiacBuilder@aol.com
In a message dated 7/26/2003 12:12:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Schallgren@aol.com writes:
> My plan, should I lose my medical, is to build HD wings for our 601 HDS
> and
> fly on my driver's license.
>
> Good Luck on whatever course you choose.
>
> Stan
> 601 HDS/Jabiru 3300
>
Those are my thoughts exactly.
John W. Tarabocchia
http:\\hometown.aol.com\Zodiacbuilder
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: ZAC newsletter - cool stuff! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
In the Newsletter, I have found some very critical changes recommended by
Chris H. For example a "Z" stiffener at the top rear of the 701 cabin, and
good notes on brake pedal geometry plus others I suggest that a builder
should get all the past news letters and review them. Some of the older
ones may not apply to the CH701SP.
Chuck D.
N701TX
18 hrs so far and all is well.
Message 17
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| Subject: | 801: Rear Fuselage...Squaring Forward HT Frames Horizontally |
and
Vertically
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Scott and Valeree Stout <the_stouts@worldnet.att.net>
Evenin' Everyone...
I am at the point of installing the rear fuselage HT Frames on my
801...Specifically, the forward HT frame, with a level laid acrossed the
top of top, left and right longerons I can get them level. When I lay
another level vertically against the outside skin I am unable to get the
top and bottom longerons level because the HT frame is too snug and
won't allow the top longeron to be moved inward to be over the top on
the bottom longeron and thus level in that plane. Have others had this
problem? If so, what was the resolution?
Thanx in advance for any help...
-Scott
Also, if the other 801 builder using a mazda rotary is out there, please
contact me as I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the
engine to work, that is without going plugs-up, using a 200mm thrust
line....
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Very good article... thanks!
do not archive
--- caspainhower@aep.com wrote:
> http://www.h3r.com/products/cockpit_fe.htm
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Extinguisher |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
ACSpruce has them
Michel Therrien wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
> Thanks a lot! Good post. Actual experience is always
> welcome and often more useful than theory.
>
> I did not purchase the extinguisher yet... I went to
> Safety First and they don't sell Halon anymore. They
> sell a replacement that contains FE-36. To get the
> same capability as a 1lb Halon extinguisher, you need
> to buy a 2.5lbs FE-36 unit, however.
>
> I'm going to Osh and I hope to find one there.
>
> Michel
>
> --- Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> > No, it doesn't match my experience with Halon
> > Extinguishers....
> > BTW Michel - where did you purchase your Halon
> > extinguisher? In Montreal? I
>
> =====
> ----------------------------
> Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
> http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
>
> __________________________________
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
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