---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/14/03: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:33 AM - 601 XL Aileron Rivet Spacing (Kafka, Jeff) 2. 08:42 AM - Dramatic decision (Garrou, Douglas) 3. 08:43 AM - fly info (Duane Evans) 4. 08:50 AM - Re: fly info (Gary Gower) 5. 09:32 AM - Re: Dramatic decision (Perry M. Chappano) 6. 11:01 AM - Re: fly info (Ron DeWees) 7. 03:31 PM - Rotary Engines? (Mike Fraley) 8. 03:31 PM - Re: Dramatic decision (Wayne Glasser) 9. 05:05 PM - 601 Stratus Push-pull Throttle (Larry McFarland) 10. 05:24 PM - Re: Dramatic decision (ZodiacBuilder@aol.com) 11. 07:16 PM - Re: Dramatic decision (Wayne McIntosh) 12. 07:42 PM - Dramatic decision-corrosion (CLOJAN@aol.com) 13. 07:55 PM - XL Axle to landing gear? (CLOJAN@aol.com) 14. 08:45 PM - Re: fly info (Duane Evans) 15. 09:58 PM - Re: XL Axle to landing gear? (Ed) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601 XL Aileron Rivet Spacing From: "Kafka, Jeff" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kafka, Jeff" List, Below is a message I received from Nick at ZAC clarifying the rivet spacing for the 601XL ailerons. The information on the plans and in the manual do not work out right. Jeff Kafka 601XL Plans: Tail and Flaps ready for inspection. Working on Ailerons. -----Original Message----- From: Zenith Aircraft Company [mailto:info@zenithair.com] Subject: RE: TECH SUPPORT - Zenith Aircraft Co. > In the photos the rearmost rivet appears to be closer to the edge > than to the adjacent rivet, thus within 35mm or so of the rear (is > this an illusion?). I think the dimensions on the left middle > diagram on drawing 6-W-2 (at least on the bottom) place it more like > 65 mm from the rear. Am I missing something? The photo shows a > total of 8 rivets (except the tip, which has 9) so something does > not add up. Calculation for the bottom: 310mm - (14 + 15 + (6 x 36)) > = 310 - (29 + 216) = 310 - 245 = 65. Rivets through the TOP FLANGE of the Aileron ribs 6W2-2 (total 8 RIVETS A4) BACKGROUND: The Ailerons ribs 6W2-2 used to be made with the top and bottom flange cut back on an angle similar to the way the Aileron Tip Rib 6W2-4, Ref top right diagram on drawing 6-W-2 (The right middle diagram on drawing 6-W-2 still shows the cutback flange at the front of the aileron ribs). With the cutback flange, the first rivet from the front was at 25mm from the front of the aileron skin. FIRST RIVET: The way the ribs are now made, with the front corner of the top and bottom flange at 90 degrees, the top rivet line through the top flange of the Aileron skin 6W2-3 picks also goes through the aileron rib. The first rivet is shown at 10mm from the front. SECOND RIVET: 20mm back from the first rivet. END HOLE: 10mm in from the end of the rib, this is approximately 25mm in from the tailing edge of the aileron skin. A4 PITCH 40: rivet spacing between the second rivet and the end hole. Rivet spacing in the bottom flange of the Aileron Rib 6W2-2 (total of 8 rivets in the bottom flange) FIRST RIVET: Approximately 15mm in front the front edge of the bottom flange, for a rib made with a corner relief hole (square corner on the bottom flange), the first hole is in approximately 15mm from the bottom bend in the aileron skin. SECOND RIVET : 25mm from the first rivet END HOLE: Approximately 30mm from the trailing edge of the aileron skin. A4 PITCH 40 between the second rivet and the end hole. Aileron Tip Rib 6W2-4 (total 9 RIVET A4) Note that the rivet line for the tip rib is longer than the rivet line through the Aileron ribs. On our demo we located the first and second holes as for the aileron ribs, the end hole is approximately 15mm from the trailing edge. Thanks for pointing the discrepancy in the rivet spacing using the pitch 35 and 36 Ref drawing 6-W-2. This fall we will revise the drawing with the above number. Nick Heintz Zenith Aircraft Company support@zenithair.com http://www.zenithair.com Technical Support Disclaimer: While we strive to ensure that the advice/information provided through our support is correct, Zenith Aircraft Company does not accept any responsibility for errors or omissions. Any advice or information that Zenith Aircraft Company gives you via any form of communication is not a guarantee that it will correct your problem. It is only offered as assistance to you. Zenith Aircraft Company will not be held responsible for any loss or damage as a result of our advice or information supplied. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:35 AM PST US From: "Garrou, Douglas" Subject: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" We noticed at OSH that the RV quickbuild kit wasn't zinc chromated inside, nor was the partially constructed 601 at the Zenith tent (even on the mating surfaces). We have therefore boldly decided to forgo any additional interior greening of our 801. Who knows, it might even save a pound or two. And I have the feeling that we will be a mouldering in our graves (molding? moldering?) before the 801's trustly T-6061 corrodes, zinc chromate or no. I offer this observation largely to generate traditional list traffic in the wake of "Fred's" departure. :) Cheers Doug Garrou Project 801 www.garrou.com p.s. Got to fly (really just "sit") right seat in the tri-motor at OSH and it was a blast. With that big old thick wing, I think it is a spiritual ancestor of the Heintz designs.... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:24 AM PST US From: "Duane Evans" Subject: Zenith-List: fly info --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Duane Evans" Hi Ron W. The franklin engine is rated 115 hp and 206 lbs dry with accessories about 230 lbs which is about the same as suburu. the wheel pants gave about 10 mph more . yes the tail dragger is easy to handle if the wheel alignment is correct and is faster then the trigear. the battery must be as far back in the tail as it will go for the CG. Duane Evans ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:39 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fly info --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Thanks for your post Duane, Hope all the Flyers (ex-builders) will continue in the list and post comments (good and not so good) about his plane behavor and mantainance tips once in a while. Also flying adventures with your airplanes and long cross crountry flights are vital medicine for all of us still building... Thanks a lot again Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. --- Duane Evans wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Duane Evans" > > > I have been off the list for about a year. and have recently come > back. I made my first flight on october 3 2003 I have 601 HDS-TD > with a PZL-Franklin 235 engine the first flight was uneventful except > oil temp exceeded upper limit. after putting wheel pants on and > fairing around the bungge box I get a top speed of 142mph . cruse of > speed of 123 mph . climb with density altitude 3500-4000 ft. 1000 > -1200 fpm. I have a IVOPROP Magmun prop set for cruse. fuel burn is > about 6gph . I did not fly in the winter so now only have 85 . hrs. > After puttng a oil cooler in ,this has a really been trouble free > airplane. I put XL canope on it. and getting sealed I should be ready > to fly this winter. > > Duane Evans > 601HDS-TD #3904 N6402X > Deer Park, WA > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:09 AM PST US From: "Perry M. Chappano" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Perry M. Chappano" Doug, Good luck. I left two pieces of trusty T-6061 in my basement for 6 months. One developed significant corrosion, the other did not. Hope you have the lucky stuff. P Chappano NC32372 - 1940 Porterfield LC-65 N9961- Zodiac 601XL "Garrou, Douglas" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" > > We noticed at OSH that the RV quickbuild kit wasn't zinc chromated inside, > nor was the partially constructed 601 at the Zenith tent (even on the mating > surfaces). We have therefore boldly decided to forgo any additional > interior greening of our 801. Who knows, it might even save a pound or two. > And I have the feeling that we will be a mouldering in our graves (molding? > moldering?) before the 801's trustly T-6061 corrodes, zinc chromate or no. > > I offer this observation largely to generate traditional list traffic in the > wake of "Fred's" departure. :) > > Cheers > Doug Garrou > Project 801 > www.garrou.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:04 AM PST US From: "Ron DeWees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fly info --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" Hi Duane, Thanks so much for the information. I hope my CG will fall in line without moving my battery. I just mounted it on the firewall. I think the Jabiru will come out under 200#. Hope that is enough to keep CG ok with present battery location. You must have cut your wheelpants down a bit. Most don't see much improvement, but note that they are too wide as they come. I had planned on taking a slice out of the middle to slim them a bit. I hope my wheels are aligned ok. I have them looking parallel to the CL of the plane. I can look thru the hollow axle of one wheel at the center of the opposite wheel. Is there any toe-in or toe-out required? Did you have a lot of TD experience before the HDS? Was it hard to get insurance (if you have it)? I am concerned about getting checked out as I don't even know where there is another 601HDS TD to sit in, much less fly in. Thanks for ideas and suggestions. Ron ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:29 PM PST US From: "Mike Fraley" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotary Engines? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike Fraley" Hi! Anyone ever hear of a Rotary (Wankel) type engine / conversion that produces around 100hp that might work in a 701? I see plenty in the 150-200 range, and some around 70hp, but not 100. Not building yet.... just thinking & researching.... Thanks, Mike Fraley mike@theautoexpo.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:29 PM PST US From: Wayne Glasser Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision --> Zenith-List message posted by: Wayne Glasser Doug I would like to offer a different view due to my personal experience. I have had nothing but problems with the 6061 skins on my 601XL corroding and would not even dream about leaving the chromate off expecially between mating surfaces. What I get appears to be a light white powder on the surface and when you brush it off the appearance is as if small snails have run around in tight circles leaving pit marks. I was trained as an AME by Qantas and have even spent some time working in their corrosion treatment section and have never seen this type of corrosion before. I not only chromate all the inside surfaces but also coat the bare skins with Boeshield or LPS3 until they are ready for painting. Regards Wayne Glasser Sydney - Australia CH601-XL 5075 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrou, Douglas" Subject: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" > > We noticed at OSH that the RV quickbuild kit wasn't zinc chromated inside, > nor was the partially constructed 601 at the Zenith tent (even on the mating > surfaces). We have therefore boldly decided to forgo any additional > interior greening of our 801. Who knows, it might even save a pound or two. > And I have the feeling that we will be a mouldering in our graves (molding? > moldering?) before the 801's trustly T-6061 corrodes, zinc chromate or no. > > I offer this observation largely to generate traditional list traffic in the > wake of "Fred's" departure. :) > > Cheers > Doug Garrou > Project 801 > www.garrou.com > > p.s. Got to fly (really just "sit") right seat in the tri-motor at OSH and > it was a blast. With that big old thick wing, I think it is a spiritual > ancestor of the Heintz designs.... > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:04 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Stratus Push-pull Throttle --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Hi List, After some frustration with trying to reconcile the cable and spring throttle controls, I cut the cables and pulled the left sleeve from the assembly and removed the carb throttle springs. A push-pull hard-wire link was made to fit the firewall standard throttle bolt and .063 wire goes thru the sleeve that connects with the right Bing throttle linkage. A flexible linkage was put between the left and right carburators that is simple but unique to anything I've seen before. These carbs hit the stops at the same time every time and are smooth to operate without springs throughout the full motion. Very excited about this change and I've read that more than a few of you wished for something better in throttle control. Maybe this is it. It certainly isn't a difficult or costly change. If this offends anyone's mechanical sensitivities, please advise. The best descriptive and pictures are on the last paragraphs of my journal, segment 6 and pictures are on the Subaru page. Best regards, Larry C. McFarland - 601hds @ www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:42 PM PST US From: ZodiacBuilder@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZodiacBuilder@aol.com In a message dated 8/14/2003 12:32:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, polestar@prodigy.net writes: > Doug, > > Good luck. I left two pieces of trusty T-6061 in my basement for 6 months. > One developed significant corrosion, the other did not. Hope you have the > lucky stuff. > > P Chappano > NC32372 - 1940 Porterfield LC-65 > N9961- Zodiac 601XL I too forewent the Zinc-Cromate on some last minute parts just before flight testing. This was two years ago. I had to change them out at my last conditional inspection. I would think real good and hard about not priming. John W. Tarabocchia (407) 709-7255 http://hometown.aol.com/Zodiacbuilder ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:56 PM PST US From: "Wayne McIntosh" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wayne McIntosh" Doug, I do not know about the RV at Oshkosh but the taildragger 601XL fuselage at Oshkosh had a green substance brushed on to the mating durfaces that were riveted together. It almost looked like green tinted varnish. The parts that were clecoed together had no coating on them. Old Ercoupes did not have any zinc chromate and that is why most of them wre no longer airworthy. Ercoupe owners now have to pull their wings off every 3 years to inspect for corosion. Ercoupes are made of thicker stuff than 601's are made of. Suit yourself though. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrou, Douglas" Subject: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas" > > We noticed at OSH that the RV quickbuild kit wasn't zinc chromated inside, > nor was the partially constructed 601 at the Zenith tent (even on the mating > surfaces). We have therefore boldly decided to forgo any additional > interior greening of our 801. Who knows, it might even save a pound or two. > And I have the feeling that we will be a mouldering in our graves (molding? > moldering?) before the 801's trustly T-6061 corrodes, zinc chromate or no. > > I offer this observation largely to generate traditional list traffic in the > wake of "Fred's" departure. :) > > Cheers > Doug Garrou > Project 801 > www.garrou.com > > p.s. Got to fly (really just "sit") right seat in the tri-motor at OSH and > it was a blast. With that big old thick wing, I think it is a spiritual > ancestor of the Heintz designs.... > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:25 PM PST US From: CLOJAN@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Dramatic decision-corrosion --> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com After dealing with corrosion on my last 56 year old plane I am making sure that all mating surfaces are painted with zinc oxide. I will spray the insides of the skins with some type of corrosion x treatment after paint ( this stuff finds its way outside and paint won't stick. Jack Russell - Clovis CA 600 XL Fuselage ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:04 PM PST US From: CLOJAN@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: XL Axle to landing gear? --> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com Hi Folks: I am about ready to drill the 4 holes to mount the axle to the landing gear on the XL. Since ZAC decided to leave out any instruction on placement perhaps someone here can help. I have decided that the axle must be flush with the rear edge of the gear to clear the brake caliper but since the "mounting area" of the gear is about 4" long how high should it be from the bottom edge? My choice can change the height of the fuselage by as much as 4" when standing on the gear. If the nose gear is not adjustable as far as height my decision could give me a fuselage that is not level. Even with the nose gear installed the weight of the engine and everything left to install will change the picture. Should I wait for the finished plane to do this? Ideas? Thanks in advance. Jack Russell Clovis -CA 601XL fuselage ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:40 PM PST US From: "Duane Evans" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fly info --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Duane Evans" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron DeWees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fly info > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" > > Hi Duane, Hi Ron I did not cut down the wheel pants and my speed are verified by GPS and flying with other other A/C flying along with me. The TD is pretty docile but the rudder is very sensitive . do lots of taxi test to get the feel of the plane and keep the tail wheel on the ground as long as posible . When you are taxiing pay attention to where the nose is in relation to the horizon and then try to land in that position.and keep the tailwheel on the ground I hope you have lockable tailwheel The airplane is very easy to fly. I havent tried to get insurance yet as I fly over mostly forrest , mountains and wheat fields Duane Evans > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:27 PM PST US From: "Ed" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Axle to landing gear? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed" Hi Jack...Just realised you're doing the XL...doesn't have the forks...forget all after Hi Jack. Ed. Sorry about that.