Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:18 AM - 701 (Dabusmith@aol.com)
2. 05:05 AM - stol 701 advice needed (John Birgiolas)
3. 05:08 AM - Re: Stol 701 advise needed (Ed Kramer)
4. 05:34 AM - Re: Stol 701 advise needed (Frank Jones)
5. 05:36 AM - Re: 801 Tail Feathers (Rmtnview@aol.com)
6. 05:45 AM - Bad Return Address on queries from list members (Ray Montagne)
7. 06:26 AM - Re: Stol 701 advise needed (H. Robert Schoenberger)
8. 07:42 AM - Re: Stol 701 advise needed (Gary Gower)
9. 03:35 PM - 601XL (lnk@cis.net)
10. 04:27 PM - Re: 601XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
11. 04:52 PM - Re: 601XL (Larry McFarland)
12. 05:20 PM - 601 with EA81 (Gerald A. Applefeld)
13. 06:48 PM - 601 with EA81air flow problems (Mark Townsend)
14. 07:01 PM - Color Moving Map for $500 (abc abc)
15. 07:20 PM - Re: 601 with EA81 (Jim and Lucy)
16. 07:27 PM - Re: 601XL (comment over kit VS scratch) (Gary Gower)
17. 08:25 PM - Re: 601XL (comment over kit VS scratch) (Robert Hillebrand)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com
>dwg. 7f 10 shows "no rivet zone"
>But there is a 3rd. spot where the forward edge of the
cabin side over-laps on the floor.=A0 Can anyone tell me why? What does go
here?
=A0=A0 When can I rivet here?
Phil
I believe it gets fasteners when you install 7-F-14-3. It will need to be
pulled into the radius of 7-f-9.
Dave Smith
Graham, WA.
PS. My new Rotax 912S W/Warp drive prop runs perfect! Smooth as silk. Temps
are a little low (oil temp 155) but I expect them to go up on climb out. No
leaks. The primer system from Lockwood works great. Brakes hold up to 4000 RPM
then disappear.
I am still playing with the elevator cables. I have a couple of bungees
installed but, right aileron feels a little heavier than left aileron. Is there
a
cure?
Message 2
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| Subject: | stol 701 advice needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Birgiolas" <johnbirgiolas@hotmail.com>
"I am quite handy with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do you think the
build time of 400 hrs is realistic?:
Dirk, I have almost 900 hours into my 701 so far. The airframe is complete.
I am intalling the Rotax 912s this week and must then wire the panel, and then
paint. I think I may have 1200 hours into it when its done, and it is from a
kit. I could probably build a second one in 800 hours with experience. There
are those who have built two in 800 hours, and some who have taken five years
to complete there projects. Nothing is "realistic" when you are building your
own aircraft.
John Birgiolas
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Stol 701 advise needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
<dslabbert@worldonline.co.za>
>
> I am just about to buy the 701 kit, but are a bit worried about things
like quality, parts that dont fit, build time, factory support?
> I am quite handy with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do you
think the build time of 400 hrs is realistic?
Dirk'
So far on my 701 kit everything seems to be well made and fits with very
little adjustment if any, and by all means it's a great design. Tech support
is great, by phone or email. Unless you've built one before or have
experience in building I personally don't think 400 hrs. is realistic, at
least not in my opinion.
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701
edair701@adelphia.net
Build Status:
Rudder completed
Left wing complete
Right wing 98%
Message 4
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| Subject: | Stol 701 advise needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" <fjones@sympatico.ca>
I've built a 601 so I'm not sure how it translates to a 701 kit. I'm
very happy with the part quality, and customer service (I used email and
typically had 1 day turnaround). I would estimate my build time to have
been 500 hours for the basic airframe and another 500 for the engine,
electrical/avionics/panel, and finishing.
Frank Jones
C-GYXQ 601XL 912S
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dirk
Slabbert
Subject: Zenith-List: Stol 701 advise needed
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
--> <dslabbert@worldonline.co.za>
I am just about to buy the 701 kit, but are a bit worried about things
like quality, parts that dont fit, build time, factory support? I am
quite handy with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do you think
the build time of 400 hrs is realistic? 'Escuse me for asking, if this
sound stupid, but I live on the other side of the world, parts are a bit
scarce here. Please other 701 builders, advise! Thanks, Dirk in Africa.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
==
==
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 801 Tail Feathers |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rmtnview@aol.com
I have a "still in the box" 801 tail kit. It's been opened, inventoried, and
put back in the crate. I have $1960 in the kit, crating, and shipping. I would
like to get $1200 for it if any one is enterested. I live in the mountains of
NC. Email @ rmtnview@aol.com.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Bad Return Address on queries from list members |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
Hello List,
I've recently received several direct queries from list members and have
attempted to respond directly, only to have my response bounce with fatal
permanent errors due to an incorrect email address. This may be due to
changes in email address at the source of the original query where the
'Reply To' address had not been updated to match the new email account.
If you had sent a message and not received a response and have recently
changed your email address then it might be worthwhile to check your email
account settings.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL, Jabiru 3300
Construction Log & Photos: <http://home.earthlink.net/~ac6qj/zodiac>
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Under Construction
NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include
the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not
be viewable by me.
===========================================================================
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Stol 701 advise needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
Dirk . . . IMHO the 400 hrs for a first time builder is totally unrealistic.
I would say double or triple that. I've spend a lot of time studying the
plans to make sure I don't mess up any of the parts. Building has been an
enjoyable process 98% of the time, and when you get stuck, this list is a
terrific resource. The guys on it are more than willing to help.
The quality of the kit is good in my estimation. I'm a first time builder
and don't have another kit to compare it with, but my satisfaction level is
high. The factory has been very good about furnishing technical support and
supplying the occasional part that I screw up. I've read that there's a
significant number of 701's in Africa because of they bush flying
characteristics and the ruggedness of the craft. Good luck. Hap
Schoenberger, 701 tail completed and working on the right wing. do not
archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Slabbert" <dslabbert@worldonline.co.za>
Subject: Zenith-List: Stol 701 advise needed
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
<dslabbert@worldonline.co.za>
>
> I am just about to buy the 701 kit, but are a bit worried about things
like quality, parts that dont fit, build time, factory support?
> I am quite handy with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do you
think the build time of 400 hrs is realistic?
> 'Escuse me for asking, if this sound stupid, but I live on the other side
of the world, parts are a bit scarce here.
> Please other 701 builders, advise!
> Thanks,
> Dirk in Africa.
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Stol 701 advise needed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hi Dirk,
My personal opinion:
We are almost finished building our first 701, Quality in the kit is
above what we spected. NOTHING was missing, not even a single bolt! I
have helped in several other kits and there is always something missing
to order to the factory, no problem IF you live in USA... foreign
countries is a custom nightmare for every time we import parts. That
is why for us was a very important point (plus flying qualities of
course) for our desicion.
When you order the kit ask for some more (at least 500) A4 rivets, not
because there are missing but in the process of building the first one,
sometimes you have to blow a few of them.
Factory and LIST support is first class all the way, excelent will be
the more exact word.
Building time of about 700 plus hours is a more realistic minimum, but
depends mainly in the quality of your work, spartan without "corner
finishing" and those special details everyody will like to see in a
homebuilt.
A normal looking plane will take from 1,000 or more hours (dont count
the time staring at the plans and day dreaming :-) that will take LOTS
of hours. But please take some time to update your building and
comments with the list, maybe from your regular work time :-)
We are working also now on the second 701 (mine) and we have a 601 XL
still in the box.... We are 4 pilots (Dad, Larry and Myself, plus
Carlos, our friend and airplane building helper for 20 years, also a
pilot) that eventually will fly them.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
701 912S in electric, avionics, and final assembly.
701 912S Tail feathers
601 XL In the box.
--- Dirk Slabbert <dslabbert@worldonline.co.za> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
> <dslabbert@worldonline.co.za>
>
> I am just about to buy the 701 kit, but are a bit worried about
> things like quality, parts that dont fit, build time, factory
> support?
> I am quite handy with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do
> you think the build time of 400 hrs is realistic?
> 'Escuse me for asking, if this sound stupid, but I live on the other
> side of the world, parts are a bit scarce here.
> Please other 701 builders, advise!
> Thanks,
> Dirk in Africa.
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lnk@cis.net" <lnk@cis.net>
On Thu 9/25/2003 1:00 AM Dirk from Africa wrote:
I am just about to buy the 701 kit, but are a bit worried about things like
quality, parts that dont fit, build time, factory support? I am quite handy
with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do you think the build time
of 400 hrs is realistic?
--------------------------------------------------
I have questions similar to Dirk's from Africa regarding the 601XL. I am
enrolled in the October workshop in Mexico, MO and will make a final
decision some time after that. I started out thinking I would build the
701 for the short field capabilities and Sport Pilot eligibility. After
looking long and hard I decided I wanted more X-country usefulness (and the
Sport Pilot eligibility). My attention in the past was on the 701 so I
never even looked at the 601 when I had the chance.
Also, anyone do a mixture of scratch build and kit build? What portions of
the kit sub-groups would most lend themselves to scratch building with
limited "quality tooling"?
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Well I'm not sure which model you actually referring to but my 601HDS was
built in 950 hours without paint.
A lot really depends on how good a job you want...I seen them put together
in 700 hours but the workmanship level is definatly lower than mine.
I'm talking about 1st time builders here.
The 701 "looks" a lot faster to build.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: lnk@cis.net [mailto:lnk@cis.net]
Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "lnk@cis.net" <lnk@cis.net>
On Thu 9/25/2003 1:00 AM Dirk from Africa wrote:
I am just about to buy the 701 kit, but are a bit worried about things like
quality, parts that dont fit, build time, factory support? I am quite handy
with the front paws, also have a straight eye, do you think the build time
of 400 hrs is realistic?
--------------------------------------------------
I have questions similar to Dirk's from Africa regarding the 601XL. I am
enrolled in the October workshop in Mexico, MO and will make a final
decision some time after that. I started out thinking I would build the 701
for the short field capabilities and Sport Pilot eligibility. After looking
long and hard I decided I wanted more X-country usefulness (and the Sport
Pilot eligibility). My attention in the past was on the 701 so I never even
looked at the 601 when I had the chance. Also, anyone do a mixture of
scratch build and kit build? What portions of the kit sub-groups would most
lend themselves to scratch building with limited "quality tooling"?
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
> Also, anyone do a mixture of scratch build and kit build? What portions
of
> the kit sub-groups would most lend themselves to scratch building with
> limited "quality tooling"?
Dirks questions as applies to the 601 are much the same, but the drawings
may be
farther along in quality than the 701. Mix and match the scratch build
process to
suit yourself. The tool requirements are simple for the most part. Kit
builders do end up making scratch repeats of more than a few kit parts gone
bad. I purchased the wheels, canopy, rivets and hand riveter from Zenith to
obtain the dies for pulling rivets, but to everything else less instruments,
and hardware, but I preferred scratch. Kits go faster and I don't think
that there are any great financial rewards in scratch because of the huge
investment in making forms and odd tooling. None of it has to be
terrifically expensive, but access to a large brake is helpful. I'd say kits
go twice as fast as scratch, but if you don't like building enough to do
scratch, even the kit will test the best of your original intent more than
once. There are a lot of unfinished parts and kits hanging out there.
Larry McFarland - 601hds (4 years) @ www.macsmachine.com
>
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gerald A. Applefeld" <jerryvmd@blazenet.net>
I need some info from anyone on the list flying a 601 with EA-81. A
month ago I posted a message nto let everyone know I had made my first
flight but had major over heating problem such that after tearing down
my EA81 I found it was basically beyond repair. In the last month, I
obtained a replacement engine and after some modifications to the
cooling system I ran it for the first time. It purrs like a kitten and
seems to have even better power than the first engine. I have now
installed a thermostat and a line from the block to bleed off any
trapped air. After at least 1/2 hour of ground run with RPM varied from
idle to 5000 the water temp never exceeded 180 (thermostat setting) and
the oil temp never exceeded 190. Two days ago I put the cowl (standard
supplied by ZAC) back on and started some taxi tests including some crow
hops. After 15-20 minutes the water temp stayed at 180-185 but the oil
temp climbed to 230 (too hot). Post inspection - no leaks, no water
overflow. Radiator is in a home made scoop located at the firewall so
the hose go vertically into the rest of the cooling system. This was
the postion recommended by someone else on the list.
Today, I removed the cowl, checked again for leaks-found none. Levels
good. Started the engine and ran it again. Water temp normal, oil temp
stayed at 160-170. Had a local A/P look it over, agreed the cowl may be
the problem. He suggested repeated taxi runs and crow hops without cowl.
After 1 hour at all speeds the oil temp never exceeded 195. I even took
it to about 100feet and landed again. All temps remained excellent.
Now the question--Has anyone else found it necessary to put baffles on
the cowl? I know this is water cooled but it appears to be trapping hot
air on the cowl driving the oil temp up. Also, the front opening is
standard but I made the rear opening large enough to clear the exhaust
pipes and drains. Should this be MUCH larger. Tony Bengalis' book says
rear should be twice as big as the opening. I haven't installed the
lower scoop supplied by ZAC as I don't have an oil cooler and My mount
doesn't need the side cheeks. Should I install the front scoop to
promote more flow in the lower part of the cowl.
Sorry for the long post but once this is solved I'll have a great flying
plane from the results of the low level flights
Thanks-----Jerry
Message 13
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| Subject: | 601 with EA81air flow problems |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
The Sub engine needs a fresh flow of air over the oil pan or a oil
cooler. Some have even gone as far as to install tubes in the oil pan so
that the hot oil has more surface to cool upon. Others have installed
rad fluid donuts before the oil filter to warm the oil up at first then
cool after. I'm glad to hear that you have the rad located in a good
flow position as it is the major challenge in the cooling job.
Just an opinion mind you!
Mark Townsend
601XL EA-82MPFI Turbo
Alma, Ontario
-----Original Message-----
it appears to be trapping hot
air on the cowl driving the oil temp up. Should I install the front
scoop to promote more flow in the lower part of the cowl.
Sounds like a good step to make sure that there is adequate air flow
over the oil pan.
Thanks-----Jerry
Message 14
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| Subject: | Color Moving Map for $500 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: abc abc <yah67890@yahoo.com>
Thanks Chuck great work, For those who have not seen Chucks handy work, inspiration.
http://geocities.com/glass_cockpit/colormap/index.html
It is not in Photo share??? maybe when the spam filters were updated.
Thanks Chuck when will you be flying?
Tony
*************************************************************************
Subject: Zenith-List: Color Moving Map for less than $500 plus Software
09/15/2003 02:12:12 PM Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com
For those of you interested in low cost, Moving Map navigation, I've
added some pictures of my installation to the Matronics Photo Share.The
system uses a Compaq Color PDA, Deluo GPS engine and cables, at a cost of
under $500. Software is from PocketFMS, a lead provided through this list.
Have included p/n's with sources and adresses. Would be interested in
feedback from anyone getting this kind of installation up and flying. I
won't be in the air until next spring. Chuck Long
*************************************************************************
---------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 601 with EA81 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
In the car the oil is cooled by the air blowing across
the pan. Also to a smaller extent by water flowing
in the motor. You need a good blast of air on your
oil pan to take the heat away. You say you have not
got the bump mounted to the cowl for the oil pan.
Does this mean that your oil pan is sticking out
the bottom of the cowl a little bit. If it is, this should
be sufficient air.
If you have a bit extra water cooling capacity you
could put on a modine water oil heat exchanger
that uses coolant to cool the oil.
There is no room for one with the stratus engine
mount so it would need to be remote mounted
with the filter. It screws on between the filter and
oil pump and hooks up the the heater circuit.
Only a few cars had the filter thread style of the
subaru. Lots of filters fit but only some of them
will screw on enough threads to be safe.
Datsun-Nissan and vw had this filter thread style.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL (comment over kit VS scratch) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
I have already scratch built 2 and a half aircrafts (not Zenith of
course) and 2 ultralights, Let me tell you, the "savings" of scratch
building was not that much in my case, and time invested in building
(learning will be a better word, I know) was a lot (average 5 years per
project), importing almost everything here had a lot to do in my
personal case...
You have to do too much dies and forms that take lots of time and
materials. Also when you buy the material for the plane is very
dificult to write (or get from other builders) an accurate material
list, so there is a "little fortune" in left overs all over the shop,
mainly if you are a newby in building.
Adding the left overs, time and cost building the dies, and also cost
of looking around and buying material (at higher than holesale price),
name it shipping charges or gasoline for the car... You might end up
in a saving thats questionable over the kit price.
Is dificult to ask Spruce or Wicks or Dillisburg, for a 2" long 3/4" OD
.049" wall thick piece of Cromoly, for example... if is the only piece
of THAT specific material you will need in the hole plane, then you
beguin playing the "designer" trying to use a diferent tube you have
left from another part... :-)
Always there is some material missing at 9:00 in the night just for
finishing a part... this also is more frustating than looking around
for a little part in all the kit inventory :-)
Partial kits is another option if you dont have all the money at once.
Another comment: Most of the kit factories now have reasonable and
competitive prices in their kits, there are a lot of planes to chose
from, do they dont want to get overpriced, and out of the game.
Also as I mentioned earlyer, the fun, the people you meet, the learning
process, etc. in building your airplane (either way) is invaluable,
and extremly ADICCTIVE!!!
Just my point of view. As always, maybe I am completly wrong, or I
just like to build planes faster to fly them, I love building the 701,
hope is finished soon...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Compulsory builder :-)
--- Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
> <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
>
> > Also, anyone do a mixture of scratch build and kit build? What
> portions
> of
> > the kit sub-groups would most lend themselves to scratch building
> with
> > limited "quality tooling"?
>
> Dirks questions as applies to the 601 are much the same, but the
> drawings
> may be
> farther along in quality than the 701. Mix and match the scratch
> build
> process to
> suit yourself. The tool requirements are simple for the most part.
> Kit
> builders do end up making scratch repeats of more than a few kit
> parts gone
> bad. I purchased the wheels, canopy, rivets and hand riveter from
> Zenith to
> obtain the dies for pulling rivets, but to everything else less
> instruments,
> and hardware, but I preferred scratch. Kits go faster and I don't
> think
> that there are any great financial rewards in scratch because of the
> huge
> investment in making forms and odd tooling. None of it has to be
> terrifically expensive, but access to a large brake is helpful. I'd
> say kits
> go twice as fast as scratch, but if you don't like building enough to
> do
> scratch, even the kit will test the best of your original intent more
> than
> once. There are a lot of unfinished parts and kits hanging out
> there.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601hds (4 years) @ www.macsmachine.com
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL (comment over kit VS scratch) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Hillebrand <masterbogun@yahoo.com>
hello Gary
I have to agree with you. I have been building a 701 from scratch for the last
9 years. If you don't count your labor or figure about 2.00 per hour labor you
can save mon ey. I'll have just under 35,000 in mine now that is vfr with transponder
and a nice panel. Doesn't sound too bad untill you see that you can buy
a 701 with help building it at skyshop for 45,000. I think partial kits are
the answer...........Bo
Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
I have already scratch built 2 and a half aircrafts (not Zenith of
course) and 2 ultralights, Let me tell you, the "savings" of scratch
building was not that much in my case, and time invested in building
(learning will be a better word, I know) was a lot (average 5 years per
project), importing almost everything here had a lot to do in my
personal case...
You have to do too much dies and forms that take lots of time and
materials. Also when you buy the material for the plane is very
dificult to write (or get from other builders) an accurate material
list, so there is a "little fortune" in left overs all over the shop,
mainly if you are a newby in building.
Adding the left overs, time and cost building the dies, and also cost
of looking around and buying material (at higher than holesale price),
name it shipping charges or gasoline for the car... You might end up
in a saving thats questionable over the kit price.
Is dificult to ask Spruce or Wicks or Dillisburg, for a 2" long 3/4" OD
.049" wall thick piece of Cromoly, for example... if is the only piece
of THAT specific material you will need in the hole plane, then you
beguin playing the "designer" trying to use a diferent tube you have
left from another part... :-)
Always there is some material missing at 9:00 in the night just for
finishing a part... this also is more frustating than looking around
for a little part in all the kit inventory :-)
Partial kits is another option if you dont have all the money at once.
Another comment: Most of the kit factories now have reasonable and
competitive prices in their kits, there are a lot of planes to chose
from, do they dont want to get overpriced, and out of the game.
Also as I mentioned earlyer, the fun, the people you meet, the learning
process, etc. in building your airplane (either way) is invaluable,
and extremly ADICCTIVE!!!
Just my point of view. As always, maybe I am completly wrong, or I
just like to build planes faster to fly them, I love building the 701,
hope is finished soon...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Compulsory builder :-)
--- Larry McFarland wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
>
>
>
> > Also, anyone do a mixture of scratch build and kit build? What
> portions
> of
> > the kit sub-groups would most lend themselves to scratch building
> with
> > limited "quality tooling"?
>
> Dirks questions as applies to the 601 are much the same, but the
> drawings
> may be
> farther along in quality than the 701. Mix and match the scratch
> build
> process to
> suit yourself. The tool requirements are simple for the most part.
> Kit
> builders do end up making scratch repeats of more than a few kit
> parts gone
> bad. I purchased the wheels, canopy, rivets and hand riveter from
> Zenith to
> obtain the dies for pulling rivets, but to everything else less
> instruments,
> and hardware, but I preferred scratch. Kits go faster and I don't
> think
> that there are any great financial rewards in scratch because of the
> huge
> investment in making forms and odd tooling. None of it has to be
> terrifically expensive, but access to a large brake is helpful. I'd
> say kits
> go twice as fast as scratch, but if you don't like building enough to
> do
> scratch, even the kit will test the best of your original intent more
> than
> once. There are a lot of unfinished parts and kits hanging out
> there.
>
> Larry McFarland - 601hds (4 years) @ www.macsmachine.com
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
>
>
>
>
>
>
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