---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/01/03: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:37 AM - Re: Rotax carb heat (Dave Alberti) 2. 06:32 AM - Am I Crazy? (Bima, Martin) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: Am I Crazy? (Scott Laughlin) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: 701 wing spar rivets for .125 caps... (Ed Kramer) 5. 08:51 AM - Re: Airworthy 701 (H. Robert Schoenberger) 6. 08:57 AM - 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap (John Scott) 7. 09:59 AM - Re: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 8. 11:04 AM - Re: Am I Crazy? (Flydog1966@aol.com) 9. 12:19 PM - Re: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap (Graham Kirby) 10. 12:29 PM - HP vs LBS. (Ashcraft, Keith -AES) 11. 12:30 PM - 701 AD's (Jkingpawn@aol.com) 12. 01:10 PM - Jon Croke Congrats!!! (RURUNY@aol.com) 13. 04:04 PM - Re: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap (John Montgomery) 14. 06:56 PM - Re: 701 AD's (Bryan Martin) 15. 07:26 PM - Re: HP vs LBS. (Bryan Martin) 16. 11:03 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle)) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:56 AM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rotax carb heat --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" I have the Rotax air box on my 912S. It has provisions for carb heat and fresh air. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jbirgiolas@smiletoronto.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: I am thinking it may be a good idea to have some carb heat on the 912s. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:31 AM PST US From: "Bima, Martin" Subject: Zenith-List: Am I Crazy? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" Thanks to the list for your answers and advice - this is an excellent forum. I am very much enjoying myself plans-building a 701 and have about 100 hours in making parts. I recently made the form for the instrument panel and decided to have some fun and lay out the instruments (right down to the digital clock and CD player) on the MDF with my sharpie. After about 45 minutes of rather artsy work, I was sitting in the kitchen scrunched beside my 4 year-old son with the instrument panel on the table and we were both making vroom-vroom noises. Is this ok? Also to 701 plans-builders: The wing spar web has only 9 lightening holes in it - not 10 - only 9. If anyone does require one wing spar web with 10 holes, please contact me off-line and we can arrange shipping. Martin Bima STOL-Vair 701 100 hours building 65% parts complete 10% engine complete 1 extra 10-hole wing spar web for sale Do not archive Am I Crazy? Thanks to the list for your answers and advice - this is an excellent forum. I am very much enjoying myself plans-building a 701 and have about 100 hours in making parts. I recently made the form for the instrument panel and decided to have some fun and lay out the instruments (right down to the digital clock and CD player) on the MDF with my sharpie. After about 45 minutes of rather artsy work, I was sitting in the kitchen scrunched beside my 4 year-old son with the instrument panel on the table and we were both making vroom-vroom noises. Is this ok? Also to 701 plans-builders: The wing spar web has only 9 lightening holes in it - not 10 - only 9. If anyone does require one wing spar web with 10 holes, please contact me off-line and we can arrange shipping. Martin Bima STOL-Vair 701 100 hours building 65% parts complete 10% engine complete 1 extra 10-hole wing spar web for sale Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:56 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Am I Crazy? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Martin: I got a chuckle out of the 10-hole spar for sale. Thanks. Scott Laughlin Z-601XL/Corvair www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Bima, Martin" Subject: Zenith-List: Am I Crazy? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" Thanks to the list for your answers and advice - this is an excellent forum. I am very much enjoying myself plans-building a 701 and have about 100 hours in making parts. I recently made the form for the instrument panel and decided to have some fun and lay out the instruments (right down to the digital clock and CD player) on the MDF with my sharpie. After about 45 minutes of rather artsy work, I was sitting in the kitchen scrunched beside my 4 year-old son with the instrument panel on the table and we were both making vroom-vroom noises. Is this ok? Also to 701 plans-builders: The wing spar web has only 9 lightening holes in it - not 10 - only 9. If anyone does require one wing spar web with 10 holes, please contact me off-line and we can arrange shipping. Martin Bima STOL-Vair 701 100 hours building 65% parts complete 10% engine complete 1 extra 10-hole wing spar web for sale Do not archive Am I Crazy? Thanks to the list for your answers and advice - this is an excellent forum. I am very much enjoying myself plans-building a 701 and have about 100 hours in making parts. I recently made the form for the instrument panel and decided to have some fun and lay out the instruments (right down to the digital clock and CD player) on the MDF with my sharpie. After about 45 minutes of rather artsy work, I was sitting in the kitchen scrunched beside my 4 year-old son with the instrument panel on the table and we were both making vroom-vroom noises. Is this ok? Also to 701 plans-builders: The wing spar web has only 9 lightening holes in it - not 10 - only 9. If anyone does require one wing spar web with 10 holes, please contact me off-line and we can arrange shipping. Martin Bima STOL-Vair 701 100 hours building 65% parts complete 10% engine complete 1 extra 10-hole wing spar web for sale Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:40 AM PST US From: "Ed Kramer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 wing spar rivets for .125 caps... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Martin & Eva Bima" > > Those of us who are using .125 spar caps (as opposed to the .093), did anyone step up the rivet length to 7/16 from the specified 6/16? Martin, According to AC 43.13 (Acceptable Methods & Techniques) the rivet should extend through the materials to be riveted 1.5 times the diameter of the rivet . Ed Kramer West Seneca, NY CH 701 edair701@adelphia.net Build Status: Rudder completed Left wing complete Right wing 98% ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:20 AM PST US From: "H. Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Airworthy 701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" Jon . . I very happy for you. Congradulations. Hap Schoenberger Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: Airworthy 701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" > > Hooray! > > This afternoon an airworthy certificate was issued for N701US > > After 2+ years of building, this was a good reward. > FAA inspector was friendly, knowledgeable and finished his work in 1.5 hrs. > It took only 3 weeks for him to show after mailing my application. > > I can now put my tools away and clean off the workbench. > > But, will the thing fly? Will wait for a calm day tp find out. > > Thanks to all on the list for the technical and emotional support that was > absolutely required to get to this stage. > > Jon > near Green Bay > > www.joncroke.com > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap From: "John Scott" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Scott" Here is another of those "I'm on my Xth attempt at building this rudder and am I cut out for this?" emails. In my case, X is 2.5. I have just finished drilling and clecoing the nose skin to the rudder spar. In what I thought was a fastidious manner, I tried to keep the radius of the leading edge skin in contact with the fronts of the tip rib and the nose rib during the drilling process by holding the skin tightly in place with duct tape. As I drilled and clecoed from the center towards the ends, the nose skin drew away from the tip rib slightly. It is not much of gap--just enough that I am able to push a torn-off piece of index card between the skin and the front of the rib. Is this a problem? Of more concern is the nose rib. The radius remained in contact with it as I drilled and clecoed the skin to the spar, but I can already see that when I begin to drill and cleco the skin to the nose rib flange the radius is going to be pushed away from the front of the nose rib by at least 2 to 4 millimeters. Does anybody else have a gap between the leading edge skin and the front of the nose rib? Have I ruined this skin? What techniques do people use to hold the skin against the ribs? Did I simply not duct tape it as tightly as I should have? --John Scott ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:07 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Ahh...basic airplane building skills lesson here. The problem is the clecoe holds the two parts tight together. You will never get duct tape to do this so as you sart from the edge this will always happen. Start from the middle in future and the excess will be pushed to the edges and disaappear. As to the issue you now have I would not worry about it...you could alwys slip in a sliver of 16 thou aluminium if it flexes but it should be just fine with the tight radius curve you have. Have fun...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: John Scott [mailto:JScott@avalonrx.com] Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Scott" Here is another of those "I'm on my Xth attempt at building this rudder and am I cut out for this?" emails. In my case, X is 2.5. I have just finished drilling and clecoing the nose skin to the rudder spar. In what I thought was a fastidious manner, I tried to keep the radius of the leading edge skin in contact with the fronts of the tip rib and the nose rib during the drilling process by holding the skin tightly in place with duct tape. As I drilled and clecoed from the center towards the ends, the nose skin drew away from the tip rib slightly. It is not much of gap--just enough that I am able to push a torn-off piece of index card between the skin and the front of the rib. Is this a problem? Of more concern is the nose rib. The radius remained in contact with it as I drilled and clecoed the skin to the spar, but I can already see that when I begin to drill and cleco the skin to the nose rib flange the radius is going to be pushed away from the front of the nose rib by at least 2 to 4 millimeters. Does anybody else have a gap between the leading edge skin and the front of the nose rib? Have I ruined this skin? What techniques do people use to hold the skin against the ribs? Did I simply not duct tape it as tightly as I should have? --John Scott advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:12 AM PST US From: Flydog1966@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Am I Crazy? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com In a message dated 10/1/03 9:33:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mbima@hydro.mb.ca writes: << instrument panel on the table and we were both making vroom-vroom noises. Is this ok? >> not OK, but is the norm. do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:27 PM PST US From: "Graham Kirby" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" John, Don't worry about the nose-skin to tip rib gap. I for one would love to have such a small gap. Couple of simple ideas on the nose rib: 1) You could shim the back face or the rib where it joins the spar. 2) Move the nose rib up the spar a little, probably only an inch or so would soak up the gap. 3) Make the nose rib slightly longer by cutting off the flange that attaches to the spar and rivet on a new piece of angle. Graham Kirby 601HD -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Scott Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Scott" Here is another of those "I'm on my Xth attempt at building this rudder and am I cut out for this?" emails. In my case, X is 2.5. I have just finished drilling and clecoing the nose skin to the rudder spar. In what I thought was a fastidious manner, I tried to keep the radius of the leading edge skin in contact with the fronts of the tip rib and the nose rib during the drilling process by holding the skin tightly in place with duct tape. As I drilled and clecoed from the center towards the ends, the nose skin drew away from the tip rib slightly. It is not much of gap--just enough that I am able to push a torn-off piece of index card between the skin and the front of the rib. Is this a problem? ...... Of more concern is the nose rib. The radius remained in contact with it as I drilled and clecoed the skin to the spar, but I can already see that when I begin to drill and cleco the skin to the nose rib flange the radius is going to be pushed away from the front of the nose rib by at least 2 to 4 millimeters. Does anybody else have a gap between the leading edge skin and the front of the nose rib? Have I ruined this skin? What techniques do people use to hold the skin against the ribs? Did I simply not duct tape it as tightly as I should have? --John Scott ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: HP vs LBS. From: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ashcraft, Keith -AES" Hello all, I am constantly browsing and gathering information about plane building, since I am in the middle of rebuilding my shop and I have no place to work on my plane (CH701 tail kit and plans), when I came across these engines. A rule of thumb used to be 2-lbs for every hp. but these are exceptions. Has anybody had any experience with these companies or engines? My problem is going to be altitude, so I am still looking for a high output with low weight engine. I had discussed the 914 turbo with the group a couple of months ago because of the high altitude flying, but these engines are a little bit cheaper than the 914, plus I should be able to add a turbo if needed. Any input or ideas? 120 h.p. on 110 lbs. -- www.masquito.be 130 h.p. on 185 lbs. -- www.canpoweraviation.com Thanks, Keith N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' -- ************************************* Keith Ashcraft ITT Industries Advanced Engineering & Sciences 5009 Centennial Blvd. Colorado Springs, CO 80919 (719) 599-1787 -- work (719) 332-4364 -- cell keith.ashcraft@itt.com ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:30 PM PST US From: Jkingpawn@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: 701 AD's --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jkingpawn@aol.com could someone please tell me where i can find a list of ad's on the ch701 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:12 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Jon Croke Congrats!!! --> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com Jon, Congratulations on finishing your plane. I've gone through the pics on your site and used them to help me make many decisions on how to approach certain problems. I feel like I was right there with you thru the building process. Thank you, and good luck with your first flight!!!!! Brian http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:18 PM PST US From: John Montgomery <1arm@rogers.com> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Leading Edge Skin to Ribs Gap --> Zenith-List message posted by: John Montgomery <1arm@rogers.com> I hit this problem too - I have this gap and the skin is clecoed to the rib. I did my rudder at a workshop at Flypass and this was not the only imperfection I created... Live and Learn. Art Mitchel stated something like "don't get overly concerned about the little thing -you're not building a space shuttle here". After thinking about it, I don't having space in front would be an issue. I have seen a few planes where - I assume for ease of rib construction - the nose tip of a wing rib is missing and the leading edge skin is allowed to assume a natural curve (continuing from the rest of the nose rib). Another example would be your horizontal stabilizer. Aside from the tip ribs, there are no nose ribs at all... Of course if this is an issue I should address - someone let me know. John Montgomery Ottawa, Canada 601XL plans, *still* working on tail, partway through wing rib pounding John Scott wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Scott" > >Here is another of those "I'm on my Xth attempt at building this rudder and am I cut out for this?" emails. In my case, X is 2.5. > >I have just finished drilling and clecoing the nose skin to the rudder spar. In what I thought was a fastidious manner, I tried to keep the radius of the leading edge skin in contact with the fronts of the tip rib and the nose rib during the drilling process by holding the skin tightly in place with duct tape. > >As I drilled and clecoed from the center towards the ends, the nose skin drew away from the tip rib slightly. It is not much of gap--just enough that I am able to push a torn-off piece of index card between the skin and the front of the rib. Is this a problem? > >Of more concern is the nose rib. The radius remained in contact with it as I drilled and clecoed the skin to the spar, but I can already see that when I begin to drill and cleco the skin to the nose rib flange the radius is going to be pushed away from the front of the nose rib by at least 2 to 4 millimeters. Does anybody else have a gap between the leading edge skin and the front of the nose rib? Have I ruined this skin? > >What techniques do people use to hold the skin against the ribs? Did I simply not duct tape it as tightly as I should have? > >--John Scott > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 AD's From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 10/1/03 3:29 PM, Jkingpawn@aol.com at Jkingpawn@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jkingpawn@aol.com > > could someone please tell me where i can find a list of ad's on the ch701 The FAA does not issue ADs on homebuilt aircraft but the kit manufacturer may have a list of design changes they recommend be implemented. Check the Zenith website ( http://www.zenithair.com/ ) or contact them by phone or e-mail. There is also the Zenith newsletter, Zenair News. Safety related notices and hcanges are published in this newsletter. You can subscribe for $20 a year and get all the back issues relating to the 701 for $90. Zenair News: e-mail- sskrog@aol.com , phone- 262-966-7627 -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Panel and engine installed. Working on electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HP vs LBS. From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 10/1/03 3:28 PM, Ashcraft, Keith -AES at Keith.Ashcraft@itt.com wrote: > A rule of thumb used to be 2-lbs for every hp. That's about right for an air-cooled four-stroke aircraft engine operating at the 2500 to 2700 RPM typical of these engines. Water-cooled auto engines can do better but they run at 5000 to 7000 RPM and require PSRUs. > Any input or ideas? > > 120 h.p. on 110 lbs. -- www.masquito.be This power is obtained at 3700 RPM. You'd have to have a very small prop to operate at 3700 RPM and you would not get a whole lot of usable thrust out of it. Too much of the propeller disk would be blocked by the fuselage. Aircraft propellers work best at 2700 RPM or less. You'd need a PSRU on this engine to get 120 HP at reasonable propeller speeds and that adds weight. It might do all right in a helicopter but that will require gear reduction anyway. > 130 h.p. on 185 lbs. -- www.canpoweraviation.com This sounds a bit more reasonable but the RPM is not given and the engine only exits on paper. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Panel and engine installed. Working on electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:20 PM PST US From: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) Subject: Zenith-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] --> Zenith-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. 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Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. -------