Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:43 AM - Crash 701 (Bob Miller)
2. 06:05 AM - Re: Crash 701 (David Barth)
3. 07:12 AM - Re: Crash 701 (Flydog1966@aol.com)
4. 12:19 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Weston, Jim)
5. 01:28 PM - Rotax throttle control (H. Robert Schoenberger)
6. 02:05 PM - Re: Crash 701 (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
7. 02:57 PM - Re: Rotax throttle control ()
8. 03:08 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Jon Croke)
9. 03:08 PM - Re: Rotax throttle control (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
10. 03:08 PM - Re: Rotax throttle control (Larry McFarland)
11. 04:19 PM - 701 throttle (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
12. 04:22 PM - Thanks (Brandon Tucker)
13. 04:27 PM - Re: Thanks (Dave Pepper)
14. 04:33 PM - Re: Rotax throttle control (Gary Gower)
15. 05:10 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Gary Gower)
16. 05:58 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Wayne McIntosh)
17. 08:05 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Chesterman Family)
18. 08:31 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Bruce Bockius)
19. 10:22 PM - Re: Rotax throttle control (barry mayne)
20. 10:29 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Brenton Battles)
21. 10:55 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Gary Gower)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Jon,
I want to thank you for your accident report, as that is EXACTLY the kind of thing
I might have done. Your report may well have saved some lives. Please get
over the embarrassment--you handled the airplane properly or you would have
been killed.
Bob Miller
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Jon.
Thank you so very much for sharing your "embarrassing"
story with us. It has to be tough to write about but
it could very well be that your sharing of this story
might prevent the loss of lives. Glad you are OK. You
have a great attitude and I am glad you will be
getting back on the building train. Thanks again for
sharing.
David
Do Not Archive
> The cat is out of the bag! I was laying low about
> this incident because I
> am so EMBARASSED about what happened!
>
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Still making parts. Nose Ribs Done and about half the rear ribs for the wings.
Stab and elevator waiting for skins. Flaps, ailerons and Rudder ready for inspection.
__________________________________
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
In a message dated 10/22/03 9:33:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Jon@joncroke.com writes:
<< only went to about 4000 rpm, instead of 5200 or so. She just barely made
it
over the high tension wires at the end of my strip and really wasnt climbing
much at this engine speed. >>
Thanks for the report Jon, it is valuable to prevent anyone else(me!) from
doing the same. I do have a couple questions . Is'nt the Rotax 912 making
enough horsepower @4000 rpm to fly? Anybody on the list know the h.p.@ 4000rpm?
I think the proto-type 701 was flying with a 53 hp Rotax 503. Also, If the
plane"really was'nt climbing much at this speed" , sounds like it was
climbing....why did it descend into the trees?
But anyway, you did a fine job , kept your cool,and flew it all the
way to the
ground...er..tree tops. Keep up the positive out look,and have fun building
the next even better!
Phil
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Jon,
Great attitude, and very responsible of you to pass on this important
info. Even though it was embarrassing. By the way, don't be
embarrassed. I'll bet a months salary that everyone on this list has
made a mistake or two in life.
BTW, I have a Stratus Subaru on a 601HDS and your experience still
applies, since I have the same carburetor arrangement.
Jim Weston
McDonough, Ga
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Croke [mailto:Jon@joncroke.com]
Subject: Zenith-List: Crash 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
> Just read an NTSB report about an accident with your airplane. Hope
> you
are ok
Message 5
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| Subject: | Rotax throttle control |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
List . . . I've been following the details of Jon's accident. He's a great guy
- always willing to answer my construction questions. I'm just thankful that
he wasn't injuried or killed.
I'm far from installing the engine on my 701, but have a curiosity question as
to why the Rotax throttle assembly is as it is. As I understand the situation
from Jon's explanation, when you apply full throttle it is the spring which
opens the carb and not the cable. What happens if the spring breaks in flight,
particularly on takeoff? I was always taught that fail safe is best but this
does not seem to be the case here. Hap Schoenberger 701 tail done, working
on right wing
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ya...as soon as I saw Jon's reply it had me thinking if I could replace the
cable with a solid push/pull rod direct to the carbs.
It was just so sad that the engine vibration did not shake the throttles
open and you had found the issue further away from the ground.
Frank
601HDS Stratus with Ram heads
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weston, Jim
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Crash 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
Jon,
Great attitude, and very responsible of you to pass on this important info.
Even though it was embarrassing. By the way, don't be embarrassed. I'll
bet a months salary that everyone on this list has made a mistake or two in
life.
BTW, I have a Stratus Subaru on a 601HDS and your experience still applies,
since I have the same carburetor arrangement.
Jim Weston
McDonough, Ga
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Croke [mailto:Jon@joncroke.com]
Subject: Zenith-List: Crash 701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
> Just read an NTSB report about an accident with your airplane. Hope
> you
are ok
Message 7
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| Subject: | Rotax throttle control |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
There are a LOT of Rotax engines flying; don't get too creative on how they "ought
to work". The strong springs will give you power if you allow them to. 400+
hours on my 912S and no issues.
GGP
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
Actually, it is not accurate to say that it descended into the trees. I was
about 10' off the runway when I applied full power from my go-around and got
4000 rpm or less; then JUST crossed above the power lines at about 25' ;
then couldnt quite make it to about 50' when the trees arrived in my path.
So, I WAS climbing but way too little.... my gear caught the top of the
trees and they sucked me in! I beleive that 4000 rpm is enough for cruise
straight and level, and very little climb. Good question about the
performance in the days of the Rotax 503 (52 hp)! Probably was less than
spectacular performance?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/22/03 9:33:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Jon@joncroke.com writes:
>
> << only went to about 4000 rpm, instead of 5200 or so. She just barely
made
> it
> over the high tension wires at the end of my strip and really wasnt
climbing
> much at this engine speed. >>
>Is'nt the Rotax 912 making
> enough horsepower @4000 rpm to fly? Anybody on the list know the h.p.@
4000rpm?
> I think the proto-type 701 was flying with a 53 hp Rotax 503. Also, If
the
> plane"really was'nt climbing much at this speed" , sounds like it was
> climbing....why did it descend into the trees?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Rotax throttle control |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
If a spring breaks on TO the throttle will be fully open anyway so no
problem.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. Robert
Schoenberger
Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax throttle control
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger"
--> <HRS4@prodigy.net>
List . . . I've been following the details of Jon's accident. He's a great
guy - always willing to answer my construction questions. I'm just thankful
that he wasn't injuried or killed.
I'm far from installing the engine on my 701, but have a curiosity question
as to why the Rotax throttle assembly is as it is. As I understand the
situation from Jon's explanation, when you apply full throttle it is the
spring which opens the carb and not the cable. What happens if the spring
breaks in flight, particularly on takeoff? I was always taught that fail
safe is best but this does not seem to be the case here. Hap Schoenberger
701 tail done, working on right wing
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax throttle control |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
As I understand the situation from Jon's explanation, when you apply full
throttle it is the spring which opens the carb and not the cable. What
happens if the spring breaks in flight, particularly on takeoff?
Hap,
This problem is an awkward design which was carried into the 601s as well.
I changed my Stratus to a solid wire and connecting link between carbs,
despite their angle to eah other. Just couldn't bear to leave such a
critical operational element to springs.
Larry McFarland
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
Another way of understanding the 912 throttle spring arrangement:
The springs keep the carburetors WIDE OPEN.
The throttle, that thing sticking through the instrument panel, is used to
CLOSE the carbs by PULLING it rearward.
When you PUSH it, as in the 701, you are allowing the springs to PULL the
carbs into a more-open position.
There is a "friction block" which you, the throttle operator, and they, the
springs, work against. The builder adjusts this item.
The idea here is that if your throttle rods all fall off, you will have a
wide-open, balls-to-the-wall power plant. The mag switches then become your
engine speed control.
But at least you'll have power.
Hope this adds some measure clarity to the issue.
Zed Smith/701/R912/90% there, 90% to go.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Jon,
Thanks for sharing your story. Your intelligence
and great attitude is a tribute to the kind of people
on this list.
Respectfully,
Brandon Tucker
601 HDS
Starting on wings
Do not archive
__________________________________
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
It's great that we can all learn from each other's trials and tribulations.
Thanks.
Dave Pepper
601HD/912S 90%
> Jon,
>
> Thanks for sharing your story. Your intelligence
> and great attitude is a tribute to the kind of people
> on this list.
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Brandon Tucker
> 601 HDS
> Starting on wings
>
> Do not archive
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax throttle control |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
We had the same thoughts a week ago, our idea was for the posibility of
the springs to fail... So we made a simple "backup" without modifying
the Rotax highly enginered idea (in fact is a good one, has worked OK
for years)...
We added a little of "liquid rubber" to the end of the cables where
they go through the bolt... Is the rubber they sell in little cans to
use in tools handles. Is very strong and doesnt interfear with the
movement of the bolt or the cables.
I will post a photo in the photoshare. A photo is better than 1.000
words...
Yes, in the photo you will also see the modified angle, is only for
aesthetics, has an angle from the firewall to the lower part of the
7-F7-1SP channel, works the same but is more "aircraft look".
I have no time to load more photos to my photo page, I will try to
load only the modified ones...
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger"
> <HRS4@prodigy.net>
>
> List . . . I've been following the details of Jon's accident. He's a
> great guy - always willing to answer my construction questions. I'm
> just thankful that he wasn't injuried or killed.
>
> I'm far from installing the engine on my 701, but have a curiosity
> question as to why the Rotax throttle assembly is as it is. As I
> understand the situation from Jon's explanation, when you apply full
> throttle it is the spring which opens the carb and not the cable.
> What happens if the spring breaks in flight, particularly on takeoff?
> I was always taught that fail safe is best but this does not seem to
> be the case here. Hap Schoenberger 701 tail done, working on right
> wing
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hi Jon,
I am really glad you made it, I had a crash landing in one of my
ultralights some time ago and also got out without a scratch, That
brings a very special love to the plane that saved our live... Yes, I
fully rebuilt that one and still keep it and fly it.
I have two comments: (I know this one will bring up a discussion
(hopefully we can come out with something good about it)
One is if your engine was stoped by branches, probabbly the "strike"
was not too hard and more kind of progressive, what ruins the
crankshaft is with the floor or any hard object like the tree wood,
because it stops with a single Bang!
Dont know what is needed to check your engine... probably she is sound
and safe like you.
Another one: The 701 prototype had less weight that the ones we are
building now (if we can believe it can be built lighter). The
preformance was almost in the "critical" side. If you have the ZAC
Demo Video, there is one with a 503 in a longer take off over some
houses, I think in Africa... That is an example. The 912 gave a new
life and personality to this airplanes, the "look" remained the same...
this ugly beauty :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
--- Jon Croke <Jon@joncroke.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
>
>
> Actually, it is not accurate to say that it descended into the trees.
> I was
> about 10' off the runway when I applied full power from my go-around
> and got
> 4000 rpm or less; then JUST crossed above the power lines at about
> 25' ;
> then couldnt quite make it to about 50' when the trees arrived in my
> path.
> So, I WAS climbing but way too little.... my gear caught the top of
> the
> trees and they sucked me in! I beleive that 4000 rpm is enough for
> cruise
> straight and level, and very little climb. Good question about the
> performance in the days of the Rotax 503 (52 hp)! Probably was less
> than
> spectacular performance?
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 10/22/03 9:33:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > Jon@joncroke.com writes:
> >
> > << only went to about 4000 rpm, instead of 5200 or so. She just
> barely
> made
> > it
> > over the high tension wires at the end of my strip and really
> wasnt
> climbing
> > much at this engine speed. >>
>
> >Is'nt the Rotax 912 making
> > enough horsepower @4000 rpm to fly? Anybody on the list know the
> h.p.@
> 4000rpm?
> > I think the proto-type 701 was flying with a 53 hp Rotax 503.
> Also, If
> the
> > plane"really was'nt climbing much at this speed" , sounds like it
> was
> > climbing....why did it descend into the trees?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wayne McIntosh" <mcintosh3017@insightbb.com>
Phil,
If you look at the published Rotax data you will find that a 80 HP rotax
912 at 4000RPM is putting out 58 horsepower. But that data is for an engine
running at full throttle. Jon was not at full throttle so he was way less
than the 58 horsepower. Also his prop was pitched to his normal
takeoff/cruise rpm. Many 912's have a reduction of 2.27:1 so at say 5800 RPM
the prop is pitched to absorb 80 horsepower at 2500 propeller RPM and
convert the 80 horsepower into enough thrust to climb. But at 4000RPM at
part throttle with the same prop pitch and the propeller turning only 1750
RPM there just was not enough thrust to make a climb. If Jon had been a
little luckier and had another 200 RPM and the trees were 5 feet shorter
things may have been different. Jon definitely has "True Grit", thanks for
telling us your story.
Wayne McIntosh Lafayette, IN
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flydog1966@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash 701
>
> << only went to about 4000 rpm, instead of 5200 or so. She just barely
made
> it
> over the high tension wires at the end of my strip and really wasnt
climbing
> much at this engine speed. >>
>
> Thanks for the report Jon, it is valuable to prevent anyone else(me!)
from
> doing the same. I do have a couple questions . Is'nt the Rotax 912 making
> enough horsepower @4000 rpm to fly? Anybody on the list know the h.p.@
4000rpm?
> I think the proto-type 701 was flying with a 53 hp Rotax 503. Also, If
the
> plane"really was'nt climbing much at this speed" , sounds like it was
> climbing....why did it descend into the trees?
> But anyway, you did a fine job , kept your cool,and flew it all the
> way to the
> ground...er..tree tops. Keep up the positive out look,and have fun
building
> the next even better!
> Phil
>
>
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Chesterman Family <chesterman@on.aibn.com>
My 701 has the 582 so I can't say about rpm and sufficient lift but 1/2 or all
flap would have slowed your ground speed and may have given you the extra 5' you
needed. Maybe
I overpitched my prop once when installing a new GSC and when your plane lacks
power it sure makes you sweat.
Dave Chesterman701 flying since 1997
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <Jon@joncroke.com>
>
> Actually, it is not accurate to say that it descended into the trees. I was
> about 10' off the runway when I applied full power from my go-around and got
> 4000 rpm or less; then JUST crossed above the power lines at about 25' ;
> then couldnt quite make it to about 50' when the trees arrived in my path.
> So,
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius" <bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> --> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Ya...as soon as I saw Jon's reply it had me thinking if I
> could replace the cable with a solid push/pull rod direct to
> the carbs.
>
> It was just so sad that the engine vibration did not shake
> the throttles open and you had found the issue further away
> from the ground.
>
I didn't like ZAC's setup (same problem, springs pulled throttle open
unless the friction lock was too tight for my liking) and replaced mine
when building with solid push-pull wires ($5 at an auto parts store -
the standard lawn mower throttle cable) and removed the springs. Yes, I
understand that most a/c engines are spring loaded to full throttle as a
safety feature, and that I have defeated this. It is unclear to me that
a broken push-pull wire is more likely than a broken spring, however.
It has worked now for 400+ hours.
-Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus (which has same carbs & throttle setup as a
Rotax)
Bruce Bockius
Black Forest, CO, USA
bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com
http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax throttle control |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: barry mayne <bazmay@bigpond.com>
G'day all,
Aircraft carbies are by design to be throttle open in the passive state ( no
throttle cable attached ). The reasoning is that if a throttle cable or
linkage breakes you will have full power. It is considered that a cable is
much more likely to break than a fairly robust spring.
Congrulations to Jon on keeping cool, and explaining his mistake.
Barry Mayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "H. Robert Schoenberger" <HRS4@prodigy.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax throttle control
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger"
<HRS4@prodigy.net>
>
> List . . . I've been following the details of Jon's accident. He's a
great guy - always willing to answer my construction questions. I'm just
thankful that he wasn't injuried or killed.
>
> I'm far from installing the engine on my 701, but have a curiosity
question as to why the Rotax throttle assembly is as it is. As I
understand the situation from Jon's explanation, when you apply full
throttle it is the spring which opens the carb and not the cable. What
happens if the spring breaks in flight, particularly on takeoff? I was
always taught that fail safe is best but this does not seem to be the case
here. Hap Schoenberger 701 tail done, working on right wing
>
>
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brenton Battles <brentbattles@charter.net>
John, I was really sorry to hear of your mishap but very relieved to
know you came out unscathed! When you were here flying with me I think
I mentioned how my confidence in my 601 had grown over time from the
days when I was concerned about it's low glide ratio in an engine-out
situation to my current realization that one doesn't need too much
space to put the airplane down and once down, the energy dissipates
rapidly. Your experience also confirms my speculation that the
well-designed structure would typically absorb a great deal of energy
in any impact which would tend to protect the occupants. Sorry to have
this confirmed by your misfortune, but you've added a lot to your
fellow builders' and fliers' insight by being so candid and thorough in
writing about what went wrong.
I hope you'll maintain your energies and optimism as you rebuild. Keep
us informed and we'll be rooting for you.
Regards,
Brent Battles
Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Bruce:
Here I go, I dont want to be a "bad new teller", I normally dont make
"no positive" comments, BUT this one I consider important: Solid cables
are more prone to fail that flexible multicables (sp?) mainly by
vibration or as the genius say harmonic resonance :-)...
The only point in favor of the solid cables are that they dont bend in
pushing, If you want to keep the solid cables, is OK, maybe they will
never fail, but if it was my plane I will put the springs back, even
the springs from the VW air cooled car's carburator are the same size
but less strong, give them a look...
When a carburator is not opening... I can remember one of my emergency
landings with my old faithfull 503: When I aplyed power to climb, the
engine maked a Vrrroooo sound (because one cable broked) and no
power... open my eyes wide to look for that little clear spot and nail
it... sure brings adrenaline out and a big smile once I got off the
unharmed plane (ultralight)...
The 601 has a little faster landing speed, need more clear space and
cero rocks or bushes to make it...
Sorry, just needed to tell you this.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- Bruce Bockius <bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Bockius"
> <bruce@whiteantelopesoftware.com>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
>
> > --> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> >
> > Ya...as soon as I saw Jon's reply it had me thinking if I
> > could replace the cable with a solid push/pull rod direct to
> > the carbs.
> >
> > It was just so sad that the engine vibration did not shake
> > the throttles open and you had found the issue further away
> > from the ground.
> >
>
> I didn't like ZAC's setup (same problem, springs pulled throttle
> open
> unless the friction lock was too tight for my liking) and replaced
> mine
> when building with solid push-pull wires ($5 at an auto parts store -
> the standard lawn mower throttle cable) and removed the springs.
> Yes, I
> understand that most a/c engines are spring loaded to full throttle
> as a
> safety feature, and that I have defeated this. It is unclear to me
> that
> a broken push-pull wire is more likely than a broken spring, however.
> It has worked now for 400+ hours.
>
> -Bruce/601HD/TDO/Stratus (which has same carbs & throttle setup as
> a
> Rotax)
>
> Bruce Bockius
> Black Forest, CO, USA
> bruce@WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com
> http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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