Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:57 AM - ZODIAC XL Wing removal (hugo van ruyskensvelde)
2. 05:56 AM - Re: Crash 701 (jnbolding1)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Crash 701 (Benford2@aol.com)
4. 06:37 AM - Throttle Springs (Dave Alberti)
5. 07:53 AM - Re: Crash 701 (jnbolding1)
6. 08:02 AM - Re: Crash 701 (Flydog1966@aol.com)
7. 08:33 AM - Re: Crash 701 (Steve Dixon)
8. 11:41 AM - Re: Crash 701 (Larry McFarland)
9. 11:56 AM - Re: ZODIAC XL Wing removal (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
10. 04:24 PM - Re: Crash 701 (caspainhower@aep.com)
11. 06:20 PM - Re: Crash 701 "going off topic?" (Gary Gower)
12. 07:43 PM - Re: Crash 701 (Greg Ferris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | ZODIAC XL Wing removal |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: hugo van ruyskensvelde <h.v.r@easynet.be>
Hi,
The website of ZAC states :
"The wings bolt to the ZODIAC XL fuselage section, and can be easily removed
for trailering or storing the aircraft."
How long (minutes, hours ) does it take to connect the wings again to the
fuselage ?
Is it practical to trail your plane home every time you fly ?
I live in Belgium and tie down places for airplanes are very costly.
Thanks,
hugo (searching for a practical airplane)
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
It is unclear to me that
>a broken push-pull wire is more likely than a broken spring, however.
>It has worked now for 400+ hours.
If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR requires
TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the event of actuator
breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh? LOW&SLOW John
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/24/2003 6:57:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net writes:
>
> If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR
> requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the event of
> actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh? LOW&SLOW
> John
>
>
This is exactly the opposite idea for safety. A hung full throttle has killed
Adam Petty and others in racing. Full throttle in a plane is you friend when
the linkage breaks.
Ben Haas.N801BH.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Throttle Springs |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
Carbs in the racing/NASCAR configuration will suck the throttle plates to
wide open configuration with the loss of the return springs. The Rotax
configuration is designed to assist even the added drag of linkage and
cables in the event that the pilot is unable to control the throttle from
the cockpit. This is exactly what happened to Jon's plane, but the
replacement springs were too weak. I think the Zenith design would be safer
still if the friction device were located in the cockpit and not on the
firewall. That way any separation of the linkage past that friction point
would easily be overcome by the springs.
It is unclear to me that
>a broken push-pull wire is more likely than a broken spring, however.
>It has worked now for 400+ hours.
If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR
requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the event
of actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh?
LOW&SLOW John
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Benford2@aol.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 10/24/2003 6:57:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
>jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net writes:
>
>
>>
>> If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR
>> requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the event
of
>> actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh? LOW&SLOW
>> John
>>
>>
>This is exactly the opposite idea for safety. A hung full throttle has killed
>Adam Petty and others in racing. Full throttle in a plane is you friend when
>the linkage breaks.
>
>Ben Haas.N801BH.
Was not suggesting that springs be rigged to CLOSE the throttle, only that TWO
springs were required instead of one. I have always used throttle quadrants
or knobs that were adjustable for friction from inside the cockpit. Never had
two carbs thou and understand that compounds the problem. John
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Flydog1966@aol.com
In a message dated 10/23/03 6:08:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Jon@joncroke.com writes:
<< Actually, it is not accurate to say that it descended into the trees. I
was
about 10' off the runway when I applied full power from my go-around and got
4000 rpm or less; then JUST crossed above the power lines at about 25' ;
then couldnt quite make it to about 50' when the trees arrived in my path. >>
Ahh-haa, more clear now. I just had concearns like..."what kind of
plane am I building, if it wo'nt fly with the power a Rotax 912 makes at
4000rpm."
I looked on the Koiak/Rotax web site and found some interesting numbers:
power setting % 65 75 100
rpm 4,800 5,000
5,800
hp 50 58
81
fuel consumption 4.2 5.1 6.3
no figure @ 4,000 rpm, but is interesting to see the significant
power increase in the LAST 800 rpm. Yet the fuel consumption increases nearly
linear. Takes fuel to make h.p. ,no?
Any way, best-o-luck on the next.
Phil
do not archive
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Dixon" <dix39@charter.net>
That would be......redundancy! This would get my vote every time it could
be used in a critical application.
I was very sorry to hear about Jon's accident and the damage to his 701. At
the same time, I was very happy to hear that he came out unscathed, and with
an attitude that I thoroughly admire. I have enjoyed reading his posts from
first flight to the mishap and beyond. He was doing exactly the kind of
flying I plan to do in the future, so all his posts were very relevant to
me.
Thanks Jon, for all the information you have shared.
Steve Dixon
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: <Benford2@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/24/2003 6:57:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net writes:
>
>
> >
> > If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR
> > requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the
event of
> > actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh?
LOW&SLOW
> > John
> >
> >
> This is exactly the opposite idea for safety. A hung full throttle has
killed
> Adam Petty and others in racing. Full throttle in a plane is you friend
when
> the linkage breaks.
>
> Ben Haas.N801BH.
>
>
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
"Full throttle in a plane is you friend when
the linkage breaks."
Seems there's a difference of opinion as to whether the spring and cables
are an advantaged
design or source of a problem.
This design seems to have only succeeded in making a 2-carb connection
linkage.
Most aircraft throttles are free of springs that preclude failure when done
correctly.
A design that offers full throttle at the occasion of a broken cable begins
a defective
argument for its use.
The throttle should only do what the pilot intends it to do a the time it is
needed without
breakage or secondary consequences. It would be frightening if all the
aircraft at Oshkosh
employed a full open spring throttle at startup and taxiing, etc. I doubt
that commercial
aircraft standards would tolerate such a design for certification.
If it's possible to use a solid throttle linkage, it should be carefully
considered.
Larry McFarland @ www.macsmachine.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ZODIAC XL Wing removal |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: hugo van ruyskensvelde <h.v.r@easynet.be>
>
>How long (minutes, hours ) does it take to connect the wings again to the
> fuselage ?
> Is it practical to trail your plane home every time you fly ?
On each wing of the 601XL there are six bolts through the spar and one bolt
through the rear Z that hold the wing on. You have to remove an access panel
under the seat cushion to get at the bolts in the spar. Since the fuel in the
standard kit is contained in the wings, there are also fuel lines to disconnect
to remove the wings. There may also be electrical and pitot-static lines to
disconnect. As a guess I would say that two people could remove the wings in
half an hour or so if the kit is built with quick disconnects for the fluid
and electrical lines. It would not be an easy job for one person to do alone.
If you plan on removing the wings frequently, I think you would be better off
putting in a header tank in the forward fuselage instaid of the wing tanks.
This would simplfy the wing removal process.
If you build the kit with ease of wing removal in mind, it should be quite
practical to trailer the plane to the airport each time you fly.
Bryan Martin
CH 601XL
Message 10
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10/24/2003 07:23:29 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
> If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR
> requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the
event of
> actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh?
LOW&SLOW
> John
>
>
>This is exactly the opposite idea for safety. A hung full throttle has
killed
>Adam Petty and others in racing. Full throttle in a plane is you friend
when
>the linkage breaks.
I may be way off here, but I think the point is; if it's critical to safety
you may want to have TWO springs in case the first one fails.
Craig S.
601 XL fuel tanks plumbed and left wing almost ready to close.
This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the
Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole
use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Crash 701 "going off topic?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Friends:
I think We are getting "off topic" with this theme, the ascelerator
system in Jon plane did not failed, remember the the problem was not
the failure of the system, but something very normal that Jon thought
was a good idea (we also thought of it as probably most of you have),
He replaced the hard springs with some too light to work properly...
When you pull the thottle with the friction stop and the original
springs... Is hard! This is a fact, but we can live with it.
I personaly dont think the cables will fail in the life of the engine
(1000+hrs), but if we (as pilots) are in doubt, we can change them in
the annual or "X" amount of hours (say 100, 200, 500...), they are
very easy to visual check every oil /plugs change, I doubt that there
is any sign of cables or spring wear in the older engines in this list
(say 500+ hrs) Any Facts from the Ol' experienced in 912 pilots?.
We will probably use the original springs in our planes, but since Jon
incident we made some tests in our engine while we install the
instruments... (sometimes we have to do something :-)
We tryed with the VW carb springs, are the same size but just a little
less hard, we also put special attention in the "curves" of the cables
betwen the carbs and the firewall, to be as gentle as possible, also we
used the liquid rubber for grips and handles (I saw the can is sold by
Permatex). Is flexible but very hard when cured, will not break, and
hold the end of the cables "balls" to the bolt very well... We have
pushed very fast (this will not be done in flight to prevent engine
"cof" of course) and the cables moved freely, all this with the engine
stoped (not even has the prop installed) is only in the engine mount
waiting for the cowling.
Just my point of view. and remeber this (I like them a lot):
"If its not broken dont fix it" and "Only Add simplicity and
lightness to an airplane" also "One very dificult goal is to design
something as simple as possible".
Hope this helps
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- caspainhower@aep.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
>
>
> > If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days)
> NASCAR
> > requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in
> the
> event of
> > actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh?
> LOW&SLOW
> > John
> >
> >
>
> >This is exactly the opposite idea for safety. A hung full throttle
> has
> killed
> >Adam Petty and others in racing. Full throttle in a plane is you
> friend
> when
> >the linkage breaks.
>
> I may be way off here, but I think the point is; if it's critical to
> safety
> you may want to have TWO springs in case the first one fails.
>
> Craig S.
> 601 XL fuel tanks plumbed and left wing almost ready to close.
>
>
> This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the
> Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,
> please
> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the
> original
> message.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" <ferret@wmtel.net>
In cars, a torsion spring closes the throttle. As a safety measure, 2
springs are simultaneously coiled to offer redundency (they are tack welded
at each end). One thing to consider is the deflection of these springs and
the wire size. The deflection and wire size produce very low loading of the
springs which will give them a very long fatigue life. It would be a good
idea to change them when the engine is overhauled, but with all of the
testing and field hours on the engine, I don't worry about it.
If you use 2 springs, each one will have to be half the force unless you
want to have to pry at the throttle lever. If one of those breaks, then you
may have the same issue that caused this incident.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: <caspainhower@aep.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash 701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
>
>
> > If memory serves (it does at an ever decreasing rate these days) NASCAR
> > requires TWO springs to return the throttle to closed position in the
> event of
> > actuator breakage /malfunction. Something else to think about huh?
> LOW&SLOW
> > John
> >
> >
>
> >This is exactly the opposite idea for safety. A hung full throttle has
> killed
> >Adam Petty and others in racing. Full throttle in a plane is you friend
> when
> >the linkage breaks.
>
> I may be way off here, but I think the point is; if it's critical to
safety
> you may want to have TWO springs in case the first one fails.
>
> Craig S.
> 601 XL fuel tanks plumbed and left wing almost ready to close.
>
>
> This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the
> Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole
> use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
> message.
>
>
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