Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:32 AM - 701 scratch building (Rick Morawski)
2. 02:32 AM - Re: Crash 701- another one (Rick Morawski)
3. 02:32 AM - Re: Crash 701- another one (Rick Morawski)
4. 06:21 AM - Re: 701 scratch building (Larry McFarland)
5. 06:42 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 10/25/03 (Gig)
6. 07:03 AM - baggage locker seal (Dave Alberti)
7. 07:57 AM - Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions (royt.or@netzero.com)
8. 08:09 AM - Re: 701 scratch building (Chuck Deiterich)
9. 08:51 AM - Re: 701 scratch building (Keith Ashcraft)
10. 12:28 PM - Re:E-mail (Clyde D Ehlers)
11. 02:24 PM - Re: 701 scratch building (Monty Graves)
12. 03:36 PM - Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? (mike sinclair)
13. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Crash 701 "going off topic?" Super Cub. (Jerry Latimer)
14. 05:26 PM - Re: 701 scratch building (Gary Gower)
15. 05:29 PM - Re: Re:E-mail (Gary Gower)
16. 06:06 PM - Re: Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? (Frank Jones)
17. 06:44 PM - Re: Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? (Chuck Deiterich)
18. 08:24 PM - Re: Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? (Greg Ferris)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 701 scratch building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
I am thinking of rebuilding my wrecked 701 from plans (not using kit parts.)
It doesnt look that hard after doing it once. Am I being naive here? Do you
save much expense? What extra time? Can any scratch builders advise please.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Crash 701- another one |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Remeber the old plans (mine) had only 30 deg flap. The 15 deg notch was
added by early builders. I really only took off this way because someone
(nameless) emailed me and said "have I tried it yet and it will go up like
an elevator, but keep the nose down."
Guess I was too slow keeping the nose down, also my trim was still set nose
up. I dont think I would recommend it for takeoff now.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grantc@ca.inter.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Crash 701- another one
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> > I decided to try a really
> >> short takeoff, ie full flap (30 deg) and stick back.
>
> Is this the recommended technique by Zenair for a short takeoff in the
701?
> I've never heard of using full flap for this maneuver due to the high drag
> and other complications.
>
> Glad you're alive. Don't keep banging you head on the wall! You'll never
> heal that way. ;-)
>
> - What doesn't kill you makes you stronger -- or so I've heard...
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Crash 701- another one |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Thanks for all your input. I live and learn.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 701 scratch building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
> It doesnt look that hard after doing it once. Am I being naive here? Do
you
> save much expense? What extra time? Can any scratch builders advise
please.
> Rick Morawski
> morawski@highway1.com.au
Rick,
In your case I'd recommend you go forward with the plans built, rebuild of
your plane. You've
done most of the work initially and probably learned enough to read the
drawings
so the effort is well worth the time and money saved.
Larry McFarland - 601hds plans builder
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 10/25/03 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
>
>
> Gig,
> I am installing my wing locker now and wondered about the rubber
> gasket you fabricated, could you provide any additional details. I am
> right behind you, but on the left wing, so your site is an inspiration and
> a great resource. You have an excellent picture log.
>
> Craig S.
It really was exactly what it looked like. Go down to the tire store,
find a truck inner tube, cut to size and slip it under the nose skin
then rivet.
I only have one concern and that is the low pressure area on the upper
side of the wing causing the flap to go up and disturb the airflow.
I will be watching this closely during ground taxi and first flight. If
it does I will probably try and glue it down(Locktite Black Max). If
that doesn't work I'll have to figure something else out.
Gig
Message 6
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| Subject: | baggage locker seal |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
What happens when the rubber deteriorates and the rivets become loose?
Dave
It really was exactly what it looked like. Go down to the tire store,
find a truck inner tube, cut to size and slip it under the nose skin
then rivet.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin GMA340 music volume was: Updated instructions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: royt.or@netzero.com
Jim,
The Radio Shack PN that I think is equivalent to the Boostaroo is 33-1109. Radio
Shack web page lists it for $21.99.
My GMA340 installation had sufficient volume with my CD player to hear the tunes
when the engine was not running, but not sufficient volume when the engine was
running. The Radio Shack volume booster gives sufficient volume with the setup.
Regards,
Roy
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 701 scratch building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
Rick,
I would consider making the few modifications that ZAC has made for the
701SP. This will give you a +6/-3G gross weight limit of 1100 pounds. Some
parts of the wing and wing attach points seem to be the biggest changes.
Chuck D.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski"
<morawski@highway1.com.au>
>
> I am thinking of rebuilding my wrecked 701 from plans (not using kit
parts.)
> It doesnt look that hard after doing it once. Am I being naive here? Do
you
> save much expense? What extra time? Can any scratch builders advise
please.
> Rick Morawski
> morawski@highway1.com.au
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 701 scratch building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft <keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
Hi Rick,
Also, if you can cut-out and salvage one of each rib, wing, tail, slats,
flaperons, etc. then when you build your tooling blocks you will have an
actual part to verify it against. I just cut my wing ribs, flaperons,
and slat tooling blocks out this weekend, and have quadrupled checked my
drawings to make sure they were correct. My first impression about the
flaperons are that they are small, but I checked it several times to the
drawings and checked all dimensions and found out that they are correct.
They just look small compared to the wing ribs.
Going with what Larry mentioned. You have studied over your plans a
number of hours, plus have actually built the plane, so the plans should
even make more sense when you study them again.
Good luck on your building which ever way you go.
Keith
CH701--SN4765
tail 98% -- kit
all else ---- scratch
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
********************************************************************************************
>>It doesnt look that hard after doing it once. Am I being naive here? Do
>>
>>
>you
>
>
>>save much expense? What extra time? Can any scratch builders advise
>>
>>
>please.
>
>
>>Rick Morawski
>>morawski@highway1.com.au
>>
>>
>
>Rick,
>In your case I'd recommend you go forward with the plans built, rebuild of
>your plane. You've
>done most of the work initially and probably learned enough to read the
>drawings
>so the effort is well worth the time and money saved.
>
>Larry McFarland - 601hds plans builder
>
>
>
>
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Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Clyde D Ehlers <clydes-shop@juno.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sir
This is Clyde D. Ehlers and am going to change My E-mail and I need to
setup my new first before i stop the old the new is
clydes-shop@bizdialup.com Pleas keep the old going until the new is
working.Thankyou
Yours Truly,
Clyde D. Ehlers CH 200/300 Ser # 25
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 701 scratch building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
I would agree with Chuck there isn't any sense in not upgrading to the
Sport Pilot gross
There are some things you need to be aware of when mixing and matching kit
and scratch building
Depending on how much of your plane was damaged. ALL of the extrusions in
the 701 kit are .093 thick. Thats a special thickness. Almost all of the
scratch buiders go to the cheaper, and more common .125. Which has been
approved for use by Zenith. This may cause some problems mixing and
matching pieces. Although I can't think of any off hand. And Zenith will
sell the .093 extrusion but it ain't cheap...
I have said this before but it is worth mentioning again. You can buy ANY
and EVERY piece of the 701 from Zenith for the SAME price you paid for it
as a KIT. Buy the ones you don't want to make. Make the ones you do.
Zenith is the ONLY kit manufacturer that I know of that treats their
scratch builders this well.. THANKS ZENITH...
Scratch builders save about 2/3 the cost of the kit builders in materials
perhaps a little more in certain kits like the wings.. This reflects the
savings of the cost of alum. rivets, labor, overhead, frieght, insurance,
and profit Zenith has to make to stay in business.
Scratch builders, trade time for money. It is that simple.
For example there is less than $600 worth of alum in both 701 wings versus
$3700 for the kit. I paid $80 per sheet of .025 6061T-6 and $44 per
sheet of .016 6061T6. and .95 per foot for .125 thick extrusion all from
Shapiro Supply in St. Louis. I picked it up and saved the freight as well.
One can save about $500 on just the Avex rivets, (.03 vs .08) by purchasing
the English rivets in Canada, and having them shipped UPS accross. Check
the archives.
But the difference is I had to make the form blocks, cut the pieces out.
flange the holes, rivet the spars, etc etc.
trading time for money.......
Recently a friend finished his scratch built 701. It passed FAA .....
N452BJ .... and is begining taxi tests.
It took him 4.5 years. He was almost fanatic about keeping records of
cost, including his gas to go after parts and pieces. He did purchase an
assembled VW engine and redrive. It is strictly VFR with minimum of
instruments and guages and without NAV?COM. He has a total of $14300
invested.
Monty
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
>
>Rick,
>I would consider making the few modifications that ZAC has made for the
>701SP. This will give you a +6/-3G gross weight limit of 1100 pounds. Some
>parts of the wing and wing attach points seem to be the biggest changes.
>Chuck D.
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski"
><morawski@highway1.com.au>
>>
>> I am thinking of rebuilding my wrecked 701 from plans (not using kit
>parts.)
>> It doesnt look that hard after doing it once. Am I being naive here? Do
>you
>> save much expense? What extra time? Can any scratch builders advise
>please.
>> Rick Morawski
>> morawski@highway1.com.au
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
A question for all, and one for Jon.
Has anyone used the "Fireseal" type products on their fuel and oil lines,
and/or is it recommended? I am now in the final phases of construction, wiring
and hooking up everything located aft of the prop & forward of the intrument
panel. My tech counselor (more of a Bonanza type guy, but building a Rans s-18)
was over last week and recommended using Fireseal over all the lines. After
browsing the ACS catalog it appears that Fireseal is used over primarily the
Aeroquip type of lines. Am I seeing this wrong, or has anyone seen an example of
this in one of the Zenith aircraft. I am all for added safety, but not for added
unnecessary added cost and weight. I did try to find something similar that
would work with the type of lines and connections on this aircraft, but had
little success. All good arguments will be presented at the next visit (around
weight and balance time I figure). Thanks
Jon Croke, I looked at the pictures and have one word, Wow! Well maybe another,
Ouch! I am hugely impressed that you walked away from that. I hope you don't
mind, but as a safety monitor for my department I would like to use the NTSB
report, your explanation of how it happened, and the pictures as a backdrop for
my monthly safety message as to why a deviation to an engineering design might
not always be a good thing. Good luck and maybe will see you at Oshkosh next
summer (since you are in the neighbor hood).
Mike Sinclair
N701TD (Tail Dragger)
Augusta, Kansas
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Crash 701 "going off topic?" Super Cub. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jerry Latimer" <jlatimer1@cox.net>
Don't know how old the cable was. The Super Cub is a mid 1970's vintage.
Jerry
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Crash 701 "going off topic?" Super Cub.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
How many hours (Years) old was that cable in the Supercub, maybe was
the original... what year of manufacture was the the Cub?
This can give us an idea... in motorcycles is very common the clutch
cable to break, has more hard work... But ascelerators is only in very
old motorcycles.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- jlatimer1@cox.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <jlatimer1@cox.net>
>
>
> >
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower
> <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
> >
> > I personaly dont think the cables will fail in the life of the
> engine
> > (1000+hrs),
>
> FWIW, I had the throttle cable break in Super cub last year. I was
> very thankful that the throttle went full open. I was able to land
> on a crop duster field using the mixture control to adjust rpm.
>
> Jerry Latimer
> 601HDS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 701 scratch building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
One cost not mentioned here and often forgoten about scratch building
is the cost of the material left over (unused part of a sheet, for
example) and the extra shipping or trip gas for the material not bought
(forgoten or not known it was needed) when other material was
ordered...
With the kit (specialy with ZAC) you get everything (well 99% will be
fair). So if you have the tools, no trips to buy anything, until
installing the instruments, and radios... Been there done that.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
>
> I would agree with Chuck there isn't any sense in not upgrading to
> the
> Sport Pilot gross
>
> There are some things you need to be aware of when mixing and
> matching kit
> and scratch building
>
> Depending on how much of your plane was damaged. ALL of the
> extrusions in
> the 701 kit are .093 thick. Thats a special thickness. Almost all
> of the
> scratch buiders go to the cheaper, and more common .125. Which has
> been
> approved for use by Zenith. This may cause some problems mixing and
> matching pieces. Although I can't think of any off hand. And
> Zenith will
> sell the .093 extrusion but it ain't cheap...
>
> I have said this before but it is worth mentioning again. You can
> buy ANY
> and EVERY piece of the 701 from Zenith for the SAME price you paid
> for it
> as a KIT. Buy the ones you don't want to make. Make the ones you
> do.
> Zenith is the ONLY kit manufacturer that I know of that treats their
> scratch builders this well.. THANKS ZENITH...
>
> Scratch builders save about 2/3 the cost of the kit builders in
> materials
> perhaps a little more in certain kits like the wings.. This reflects
> the
> savings of the cost of alum. rivets, labor, overhead, frieght,
> insurance,
> and profit Zenith has to make to stay in business.
>
> Scratch builders, trade time for money. It is that simple.
>
> For example there is less than $600 worth of alum in both 701 wings
> versus
> $3700 for the kit. I paid $80 per sheet of .025 6061T-6 and $44
> per
> sheet of .016 6061T6. and .95 per foot for .125 thick extrusion all
> from
> Shapiro Supply in St. Louis. I picked it up and saved the freight as
> well.
> One can save about $500 on just the Avex rivets, (.03 vs .08) by
> purchasing
> the English rivets in Canada, and having them shipped UPS accross.
> Check
> the archives.
>
>
> But the difference is I had to make the form blocks, cut the pieces
> out.
> flange the holes, rivet the spars, etc etc.
>
> trading time for money.......
>
> Recently a friend finished his scratch built 701. It passed FAA
> .....
> N452BJ .... and is begining taxi tests.
>
> It took him 4.5 years. He was almost fanatic about keeping records
> of
> cost, including his gas to go after parts and pieces. He did
> purchase an
> assembled VW engine and redrive. It is strictly VFR with minimum of
> instruments and guages and without NAV?COM. He has a total of
> $14300
> invested.
>
> Monty
>
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich"
> <cfd@thegateway.net>
> >
> >Rick,
> >I would consider making the few modifications that ZAC has made for
> the
> >701SP. This will give you a +6/-3G gross weight limit of 1100
> pounds. Some
> >parts of the wing and wing attach points seem to be the biggest
> changes.
> >Chuck D.
> >
> >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski"
> ><morawski@highway1.com.au>
> >>
> >> I am thinking of rebuilding my wrecked 701 from plans (not using
> kit
> >parts.)
> >> It doesnt look that hard after doing it once. Am I being naive
> here? Do
> >you
> >> save much expense? What extra time? Can any scratch builders
> advise
> >please.
> >> Rick Morawski
> >> morawski@highway1.com.au
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Clyde,
I will advise you to subscribe with your new address, then when you
recieve 2 of them... Unsubscribe from your old e-mail address.
http://www.matronics.com/subscription
This is the easyest way.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- Clyde D Ehlers <clydes-shop@juno.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Clyde D Ehlers
> <clydes-shop@juno.com>
>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sir
> This is Clyde D. Ehlers and am going to change My E-mail and I need
> to
> setup my new first before i stop the old the new is
> clydes-shop@bizdialup.com Pleas keep the old going until the new
> is
> working.Thankyou
> Yours Truly,
>
> Clyde D. Ehlers CH 200/300 Ser # 25
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" <fjones@sympatico.ca>
I used Stratoflex firesleeve around all my rubber fuel lines inside the
firewall. Main reasoning was to insulate the fuel lines and reduce fuel
temp to avoid vapor lock and to help reduce chance of fire. Seemed like
a good safety feature to me but it isn't cheap.
Frank Jones
C-GYXQ
601XL 912S
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
Mike,
My Jabiru 2200 came from the factory with firesleeve over all of the
installed fuel lines and enough to cover the other fuel lines and oil lines
to the cooler. Tony Bingelis covers this in his Firewall Forward Book.
Chuck D.
N701TX
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> A question for all, and one for Jon.
>
> Has anyone used the "Fireseal" type products on their fuel and oil
lines,
> and/or is it recommended? I am now in the final phases of construction,
wiring
> and hooking up everything located aft of the prop & forward of the
intrument
> panel. My tech counselor (more of a Bonanza type guy, but building a Rans
s-18)
> was over last week and recommended using Fireseal over all the lines.
After
> browsing the ACS catalog it appears that Fireseal is used over primarily
the
> Aeroquip type of lines. Am I seeing this wrong, or has anyone seen an
example of
> this in one of the Zenith aircraft. I am all for added safety, but not for
added
> unnecessary added cost and weight. I did try to find something similar
that
> would work with the type of lines and connections on this aircraft, but
had
> little success. All good arguments will be presented at the next visit
(around
> weight and balance time I figure). Thanks
>
> Jon Croke, I looked at the pictures and have one word, Wow! Well maybe
another,
> Ouch! I am hugely impressed that you walked away from that. I hope you
don't
> mind, but as a safety monitor for my department I would like to use the
NTSB
> report, your explanation of how it happened, and the pictures as a
backdrop for
> my monthly safety message as to why a deviation to an engineering design
might
> not always be a good thing. Good luck and maybe will see you at Oshkosh
next
> summer (since you are in the neighbor hood).
>
> Mike Sinclair
> N701TD (Tail Dragger)
> Augusta, Kansas
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" <ferret@wmtel.net>
I covered all of the fuel and oil lines as well as the coolant lines where a
heat source was nearby. The materials aren't cheap, but it's pretty cheap
insurance when considering the big picture.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike sinclair" <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fireseal for fuel & oil hoses?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: mike sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> A question for all, and one for Jon.
>
> Has anyone used the "Fireseal" type products on their fuel and oil
lines,
> and/or is it recommended? I am now in the final phases of construction,
wiring
> and hooking up everything located aft of the prop & forward of the
intrument
> panel. My tech counselor (more of a Bonanza type guy, but building a Rans
s-18)
> was over last week and recommended using Fireseal over all the lines.
After
> browsing the ACS catalog it appears that Fireseal is used over primarily
the
> Aeroquip type of lines. Am I seeing this wrong, or has anyone seen an
example of
> this in one of the Zenith aircraft. I am all for added safety, but not for
added
> unnecessary added cost and weight. I did try to find something similar
that
> would work with the type of lines and connections on this aircraft, but
had
> little success. All good arguments will be presented at the next visit
(around
> weight and balance time I figure). Thanks
>
> Jon Croke, I looked at the pictures and have one word, Wow! Well maybe
another,
> Ouch! I am hugely impressed that you walked away from that. I hope you
don't
> mind, but as a safety monitor for my department I would like to use the
NTSB
> report, your explanation of how it happened, and the pictures as a
backdrop for
> my monthly safety message as to why a deviation to an engineering design
might
> not always be a good thing. Good luck and maybe will see you at Oshkosh
next
> summer (since you are in the neighbor hood).
>
> Mike Sinclair
> N701TD (Tail Dragger)
> Augusta, Kansas
>
>
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