---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/06/03: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:25 AM - Re: engraving id on some parts (Grant Corriveau) 2. 03:53 AM - Re: Re: N701XL flies (Benford2@aol.com) 3. 05:13 AM - Instruments for Sale (Lenleg@aol.com) 4. 10:59 AM - CH 701 fuselage (Tony & Peggy Pierce) 5. 11:35 AM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Larry McFarland) 6. 12:23 PM - N701XL Flies (Dabusmith@aol.com) 7. 02:38 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Hal Rozema) 8. 02:45 PM - CofG limits for CH-640 (David Witt) 9. 03:15 PM - Re: N701XL Flies (Thomas F Marson) 10. 03:16 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Keith Ashcraft) 11. 03:26 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Thomas F Marson) 12. 05:06 PM - Re: N701XL Flies (Benford2@aol.com) 13. 05:16 PM - Re: N701XL Flies (Benford2@aol.com) 14. 05:25 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Ken Szewc) 15. 06:08 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Jon Croke) 16. 07:11 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Gary Gower) 17. 07:18 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Gary Gower) 18. 08:16 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Thomas F Marson) 19. 09:09 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Chuck Deiterich) 20. 09:55 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Ken Szewc) 21. 09:57 PM - Re: CH 701 fuselage (Tony & Peggy Pierce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: engraving id on some parts From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau http://www.championtrailers.com/tire_art.html The above link contains a good article explaining the ins and outs of trailer tires such as we use on the Zenairs... There is also an article about how to build a utility trailer. This might be handy if anyone is considering the need to trailer his aircraft...? fwiw -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:53 AM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: N701XL flies --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 11/5/2003 8:50:10 PM Mountain Standard Time, Dabusmith@aol.com writes: > prop setting ran > about 1525 f. The oil temp was approx. 197f. water 157f. OAT 47f. My takeoff > climb > approx. 1250 fpm.(1 up full fuel 48 mph). I then pitched my Warp drive to 12 > > deg. The climb out was still great approx. 1150-1200 (1 up full fuel). The > highest EGT runs at 1494f. Oil temp 193f. water 157f. OAT I am not a degreed engineer and I don't play one on tv, BUT. I have hundreds of hours in my dyno cell testing everything from Kart engines to 100,000 $ V-6 193 Cid racing engines and I have never seen 1500 + degree egt temps where the motor was not hurt. If you ever saw how bright orange your exhaust pipes are glowing you would crap in your shorts. You might want to re calibrate your gauges. Ben Haas ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:26 AM PST US From: Lenleg@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Instruments for Sale pietenpol-list@matronics.com, commander-list@matronics.com, aerobatic-list@matronics.com, europa-list@matronics.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com I have the following for sale: RC Allen Electric Attitude Indicator with 8 degree tilt, 14V, approx. 75hrs RC Allen Electric Direction Gyro, 14V, 150 hrs, Both instruments are in my RV-8A still flying. Been flying in my plane for 1 year. Instruments retail for $1895 each. Make an offer off list. Please respond direct to: lenleg@aol.com Len Leggette, RV-8A Greensboro, NC N910LL ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:07 AM PST US From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the rear fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be riveted to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo gallery shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. Thanks, Tony Pierce 701TJ #5188 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:34 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > Thanks, > Tony Pierce > 701TJ #5188 > Tony, I've seen several 601s and 701s that used a heavy duct tape in an X between frames to minimize the oil-canning and was told that it worked rather well. The diagonal framing on the other hand will leave you with a Z-wave that is very predominant in the summer sun if that matters, but doubt that will solve the oil canning as well as a contact adhesive, tape, spray or padding. Larry McFarland - 601hds @ www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:16 PM PST US From: Dabusmith@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: N701XL Flies --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com >If you ever saw how bright orange your exhaust pipes are glowing you would crap in your shorts. Ben The EGT calibration is accurate at ambient temperature. I guess I could use temp. crayon but, things seem normal. The manual on the 912S calls out EGT temps. at 1470 f. nominal and 1560 f. Max. cruise and 1620f. take off. I am only watching the aft cylinders. The cowling is just warm at the front curves when I shut it down. The front right side is closest to the header. It was almost hot to the touch at the first run up. I used .016 6061 attached with hi temp red RTV. It has about 3/16 air gap under it. Did the trick. I am thinking of installing the centering cams under the nose wheel steering. I put a thrust bearing under the stop plate at the top of the strut with a rubber washer under that. The steering arms barely touch the angles that are flat in my case but are supposed to be notched per plans. I used Micarta blocks for the rudder pedal bearings. The rudder is very light at low speeds. I am thinking some ramps with slight angles would center the rudder in flight. It is just a minor nuisance to tweak the ball. I must do it fairly often though. Do the centering ramps help keep the ball centered in cruise? Dave Smith N701XL 912 ULS ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:22 PM PST US From: Hal Rozema Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema Check the brush on that air conditioning companies use to stop oil canning or turbulence rumble in supply ducts Larry McFarland wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how > severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > > > Thanks, > > Tony Pierce > > 701TJ #5188 > > > Tony, > I've seen several 601s and 701s that used a heavy duct tape in an X between > frames to minimize the oil-canning > and was told that it worked rather well. The diagonal framing on the other > hand will leave you with a Z-wave that > is very predominant in the summer sun if that matters, but doubt that will > solve the oil canning as well as a contact > adhesive, tape, spray or padding. > > Larry McFarland - 601hds @ www.macsmachine.com > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:16 PM PST US From: "David Witt" Subject: Zenith-List: CofG limits for CH-640 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Witt" Do any of the 640 builders know where I can find the C of G limits for this plane. I have looked throught the plans and the accompanying documentation but I can't find them. I'm having some reservations about building a plane without having the C of G limits published by the designer. Dave Witt CH640-0037 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:47 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N701XL Flies --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Zenith-List: N701XL Flies > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com > > > >If you ever saw how bright orange your exhaust pipes > are glowing you would crap in your shorts. > > Ben > The EGT calibration is accurate at ambient temperature. I guess I could use > temp. crayon but, things seem normal. The manual on the 912S calls out EGT > temps. at 1470 f. nominal and 1560 f. Max. cruise and 1620f. take off. I am only > watching the aft cylinders. ================================== I assume you are concerned about the general effect of engine and exhaust heat on the Fiberglass cowling. If so your idea of the heat shield of .016 alum is good idea. You carried into this subject immediatly after egt temps. Your are not relating the two are you?. I don't think they are much related. You could have egts at 1200 and still have a hot cowling. The cowling is just warm at the front curves when I > shut it down. The front right side is closest to the header. It was almost > hot to the touch at the first run up. I used .016 6061 attached with hi temp red > RTV. It has about 3/16 air gap under it. Did the trick. ======================================================== > I am thinking of installing the centering cams under the nose wheel steering. > I put a thrust bearing under the stop plate at the top of the strut with a > rubber washer under that. The steering arms barely touch the angles that are > flat in my case but are supposed to be notched per plans. I used Micarta blocks > for the rudder pedal bearings. The rudder is very light at low speeds. I am > thinking some ramps with slight angles would center the rudder in flight. It is > just a minor nuisance to tweak the ball. I must do it fairly often though. Do > the centering ramps help keep the ball centered in cruise? I think if your goal is to have the ball self center in flight the idea of any self centering mechanical device to accomplish that will be an exercise in futility. There is a nearly continious change of slip skid force in normal flight. Any pitch change, any speed change, any offset aileron (maybe to hold a heavy wing as fuel, with or with out passenger) will cause a ball displacement. For continious ball center there is no substitute for adjusting the rudder. ================================================ Tom Marson > Dave Smith > N701XL 912 ULS > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:55 PM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft Hey Tony, Check out Johann's site (click on Zenith on the side bar, then fuselage at the top) http://www.gi.is/fis/ he has also added some strigers to prevent oil canning. I am thinking that I am going to do the same. I see Larry was talking about some users using tape with good results. I can't say which is best. Maybe Johann will chime in and give his results. Good Luck, Keith CH701 a long ways to go (only 170% more) N 38.9947 W 105.1305 Alt. 9,100' (about 20 miles West of Colorado Springs) ***************************************************************************************** Tony & Peggy Pierce wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > >I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the rear fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be riveted to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo gallery shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > >Thanks, >Tony Pierce >701TJ #5188 > > > > ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:08 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" I can't give guidance on the addition of any Ls. But I can give you some good advice on the subject. I built a RV6 and on of the recommended ways to help reduce sound was to glue some patches of sound deadening material every couple of square feet of surface inside the rear fuselage. The material we use is available from Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. It is black aircraft sound deadening insulation. It is available in several thicknesses but most use the 1/2 inch. Weight is neglible and cost is low too. JUst glue a patch of around 5X7 inches to each large metal section. It will cut the buzzing down like you cant believe. Tom Marson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > > I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the rear fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be riveted to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo gallery shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > Thanks, > Tony Pierce > 701TJ #5188 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:28 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N701XL Flies --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 11/6/2003 1:25:06 PM Mountain Standard Time, Dabusmith@aol.com writes: > > Ben > The EGT calibration is accurate at ambient temperature. I guess I could use > temp. crayon but, things seem normal. The manual on the 912S calls out EGT > temps. at 1470 f. nominal and 1560 f. Max. cruise and 1620f. take off. I am > only > watching the aft cylinders. The cowling is just warm at the front curves 1620 f... WOW.. Aluminum melts at 1355 f ,so the piston heads and the exhaust ports in a aluminum motor are very close to melting too. Now remember they are water cooled from the inside, but that high of temps are going to erode the surfaces where 1600 degree gases are passing by,one would think.. Good luck and I hope to meet ya at a Zenith open house one day in the future. Ben Haas. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:59 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: N701XL Flies --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 11/6/2003 4:17:54 PM Mountain Standard Time, tmarson@pressenter.com writes: > > > >If you ever saw how bright orange your exhaust pipes > > are glowing you would crap in your shorts. > > > > Ben > > The EGT calibration is accurate at ambient temperature. I guess I could > use > > temp. crayon but, things seem normal. The manual on the 912S calls out EGT > > temps. at 1470 f. nominal and 1560 f. Max. cruise and 1620f. take off. I > am only > > watching the aft cylinders. > The point I was trying to make was the high temps. All you builders out there can get a attitude adjustment real fast. Go to your electric stove and turn on the top burner to high, now if you had a IR gun to show the temp it would read in the 1300- 1375 f range. Take your hand and hold it close, thats called radiated heat. Now imagine that glowing stove burner 20 % hotter. Just a reminder to keep all combustibles way clear of all exhaust pipes... Ben Haas. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:14 PM PST US From: "Ken Szewc" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Szewc" Tony, I am building a 701 also and plan on using quiet cote on parts of the interior of the fuselage. It is a FAA approved roll on sound it's waterbased, nontoxic, non flammable and FAA approved. I have a quart of this and plan on just using enough to quiet down the problem areas. Here is the URL http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/qulida.html Ken 701SP 912S Engine installed working on the wiring. Just received the new bubble doors today ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > > I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the rear fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be riveted to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo gallery shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > Thanks, > Tony Pierce > 701TJ #5188 > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:09 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" During my last and only 2 hrs in the 701, I was keenly aware of the 'noise' in the cockpit. It was a bit noisier than I would have liked, and I think the noise I heard was coming from the cabin and luggage area ONLY. I have to believe that if the fuselage (way back there) was making noise, it was of little concern to me. I did have the L stringers that make a bunch of Z's installed. I recall that I found the noise coming mainly from that big metal box we call the luggage area, and as I rebuild I will definitely pay some attention to soundproofing this area using the ideas recently described. I also noticed that the thin lexan roof was also vibrating right above your head and will investigate making this more rigid (thicker material maybe). Also, the lexan on the doors 'may' also have been a culprit -- I bet those new bubble doors would solve that ($$$$ always solves problems!) In summary, I dont think wasting too much time, money on soundproofing the aft fuselage will reap rewards as much as concentrating on the structure immediately around the pilot's ears. My 2 cents and worth every penny Jon the aluminum butcher of Brussels , Wi 95% done removing nearly every rivet and building inventory of good parts! Bad parts are serving as templates for new parts 912 at repair station - next week to get word on damage from prop strike! (3 hr flat rate charge) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Szewc" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Szewc" > > Tony, > I am building a 701 also and plan on using quiet cote on parts of the > interior of the fuselage. It is a FAA approved roll on sound it's > waterbased, nontoxic, non flammable and FAA approved. I have a quart of this > and plan on just using enough to quiet down the problem areas. > > Here is the URL http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/qulida.html > > Ken > 701SP 912S > Engine installed working on the wiring. > Just received the new bubble doors today > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:40 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Ken, Do you know the "installed weight" of this product... How much weight a gallon, dryed in the aluminum, will add to the plane? Just curious, first time read about it. Saludos Gary Gower. --- Ken Szewc wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Szewc" > > Tony, > I am building a 701 also and plan on using quiet cote on parts of the > interior of the fuselage. It is a FAA approved roll on sound it's > waterbased, nontoxic, non flammable and FAA approved. I have a quart > of this > and plan on just using enough to quiet down the problem areas. > > Here is the URL http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/qulida.html > > Ken > 701SP 912S > Engine installed working on the wiring. > Just received the new bubble doors today > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > > > > > I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the > rear > fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be > riveted > to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo > gallery > shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would > appreciate > feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil > canning' > is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > > > Thanks, > > Tony Pierce > > 701TJ #5188 > > > > > > _-> > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:34 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Jon, Is great to read that you are rebuilding... Good luck and patience, it will be ready to fly soon. Saludos Gary Gower Beguining work on the second 701 (tail feathers), meanwhile the instruments are installed in the first one. Do not archive. --- Jon Croke wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" > > > During my last and only 2 hrs in the 701, I was keenly aware of the > 'noise' > in the cockpit. It was a bit noisier than I would have liked, and I > think > the noise I heard was coming from the cabin and luggage area ONLY. I > have > to believe that if the fuselage (way back there) was making noise, it > was of > little concern to me. I did have the L stringers that make a bunch of > Z's > installed. > > I recall that I found the noise coming mainly from that big metal box > we > call the luggage area, and as I rebuild I will definitely pay some > attention > to soundproofing this area using the ideas recently described. I > also > noticed that the thin lexan roof was also vibrating right above your > head > and will investigate making this more rigid (thicker material maybe). > Also, > the lexan on the doors 'may' also have been a culprit -- I bet those > new > bubble doors would solve that ($$$$ always solves problems!) > > In summary, I dont think wasting too much time, money on > soundproofing the > aft fuselage will reap rewards as much as concentrating on the > structure > immediately around the pilot's ears. > > My 2 cents and worth every penny > > Jon > the aluminum butcher of Brussels , Wi > 95% done removing nearly every rivet and building inventory of good > parts! > Bad parts are serving as templates for new parts > 912 at repair station - next week to get word on damage from prop > strike! (3 > hr flat rate charge) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ken Szewc" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Szewc" > > > > Tony, > > I am building a 701 also and plan on using quiet cote on parts of > the > > interior of the fuselage. It is a FAA approved roll on sound it's > > waterbased, nontoxic, non flammable and FAA approved. I have a > quart of > this > > and plan on just using enough to quiet down the problem areas. > > > > Here is the URL http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/qulida.html > > > > Ken > > 701SP 912S > > Engine installed working on the wiring. > > Just received the new bubble doors today > > > > > > > > _-> > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:19 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Super sound proofing foam is FAR compliant, Wicks aircraft is $12.00 for 4 feet square, may be fastened with contact cement to wood or aluminum or fiberglass. Various thickness are available the above price is for 1/2 inch thick. Page 54 in 2003 catalog. I have used lots of it in aircraft and it works very well. The paint on and roll on may be fine but it may also dry out and crack and fall off. How much actual sound deadning excellent or poor---- who knows It is a new product I think. Low cost-----heck no at 90 dollars a gallon and 35 dollars a quart. If it were me I would go with a sure thing. I will definitly use the Foam I have used before as it works very well in the Zodiac 601 XL that I plan to start soon. Tom Marson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Szewc" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Szewc" > > Tony, > I am building a 701 also and plan on using quiet cote on parts of the > interior of the fuselage. It is a FAA approved roll on sound it's > waterbased, nontoxic, non flammable and FAA approved. I have a quart of this > and plan on just using enough to quiet down the problem areas. > > Here is the URL http://store.yahoo.com/soundproofing/qulida.html > > Ken > 701SP 912S > Engine installed working on the wiring. > Just received the new bubble doors today > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" > > > > > I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the rear > fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be riveted > to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo gallery > shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would appreciate > feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' > is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > > > Thanks, > > Tony Pierce > > 701TJ #5188 > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:33 PM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Tony, I bent some L's out of .016 (very light) and put them diagonally on the sides between the frames. Made them for the long diagonal distance between the frames. After finishing the rear fuselage and joining the front and rear halves, I put the fuselage bottom on some cushion, laid a piece of foam inside and crawled in. Once in, I used fluteing pliers to put flutes every 2 inches or so on the .016 diagonal L's and the .025 frame L's (side, top and bottom frames). This causes the sides to bow out a bit and stiffens the skin and stopping oil canning. I did not put diagonals on the bottom and the first bottom panel behind the big inspection cover started to oil can. I bent a "V" in some aluminum foil tape and put a "+" on this panel and it stopped the rattle. ZAC has diagonal L's on the factory 701 sides. One caution about putting foam on the skin is if it gets moisture between it and the aluminum it could cause corrosion. Chuck D. N701TX > I am building a 701 with another co-owner. We are working on the rear fuselage and are trying to discover whether additional L's should be riveted to the skins to prevent 'oil canning'. The 701 in the Zenith photo gallery shows X's between each frame, but this seems excessive. We would appreciate feedback from those of you flying the 701 as to how severe the 'oil canning' is, and what you have done to mitigate it. > > Thanks, > Tony Pierce > 701TJ #5188 > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:32 PM PST US From: "Ken Szewc" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ken Szewc" > > Ken, > > Do you know the "installed weight" of this product... How much weight > a gallon, dryed in the aluminum, will add to the plane? Just curious, > first time read about it. > > Saludos > Gary Gower. Not sure of the installed weight, although I don't believe it will be that much. Tom is right it is a new product however I used similar material used in ducting and it works well and doesn't seem to crack or peel over time. I am waiting until weight and balance, and getting it airborne a few times before applying it. I only want to apply it to areas that generate noise. The nice thing about this is you can put as little or as much as needed and get to tough spots very easy. The typical rule in sound proofing is the higher the density (weight) of the material the better sound absorbtion. It is best to stop sound as close to the source as possible. It usually takes less material than trying to stop it farther away from the source. One option to consider is the new double sided VHB tapes provided by 3M. They are made to put in permanent structure without rivets or spot welds. It would be easy to put in internal L supports with no visible external rivets (drag). These tapes are made to be applied and painted over or applied on painted surfaces. Since sound prevention L brackets are not structural to flight it seems like this would work well. http://www.3m.com/us/mfg_industrial/adhesives/vhb/ Just a thought Ken ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:44 PM PST US From: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Tony & Peggy Pierce" Thanks for all the response to my 'oil canning' question...we now have several things to consider. It's really great to have this resource for obtaining timely information as we build this airplane. Thanks, Tony