Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:28 AM - Re: 912 break-in (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
2. 05:38 AM - cold-weather building (Steve Mineart)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: 912 break-in (Daniel Vandenberg)
4. 07:23 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Thomas F Marson)
5. 08:59 AM - Re: New 912 prices! (Dave Pepper)
6. 09:57 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Grant Corriveau)
7. 10:49 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Larry McFarland)
8. 11:45 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Jim Frisby)
9. 12:04 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Frank Stutzman)
10. 12:15 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Dave Pepper)
11. 01:43 PM - Re: cold-weather building ()
12. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: 912 break-in (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
13. 06:43 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Benford2@aol.com)
14. 07:19 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Dave Alberti)
15. 08:26 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Steve Dixon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 912 break-in |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
The factory school series taught by Eric Tucker explains how the 912/914
rngines are tested at the factory.
It is a bit early in the day for me to dig out school notes and handouts, but
if memory serves correctly, both the big boys are run 15 minutes WIDE OPEN.
This is done using propane as fuel, and no muffler.
I do recall the look of amazement of all attendees when Tucker shared this
bit of info with the class.
So, in answer to the original question as to a "break-in" period, unless some
other lister says otherwise, I do not recall such an animal. I would change
the oil after the first hour, then the next hour, then per your own schedule
after that.
Zed Smith/701/R912/90%
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 2
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| Subject: | cold-weather building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" <smineart@kdsi.net>
Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my
wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in
the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins to
install them sometimes.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 912 break-in |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63@yahoo.com>
Zed...
Perhaps I could mine your experience at the Rotax course for one more thing. Did
yo get much exposure to the 914 at the course? Could you comment on your
impressions of installation, maintenance, & operating workload/headaches of the
914 as opposed to the 912/912S? Thanks.
Dan
ZSMITH3rd@aol.com wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
The factory school series taught by Eric Tucker explains how the 912/914
rngines are tested at the factory.
It is a bit early in the day for me to dig out school notes and handouts, but
if memory serves correctly, both the big boys are run 15 minutes WIDE OPEN.
This is done using propane as fuel, and no muffler.
I do recall the look of amazement of all attendees when Tucker shared this
bit of info with the class.
So, in answer to the original question as to a "break-in" period, unless some
other lister says otherwise, I do not recall such an animal. I would change
the oil after the first hour, then the next hour, then per your own schedule
after that.
Zed Smith/701/R912/90%
DO NOT ARCHIVE
---------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: cold-weather building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Good point Steve. I might be a good idea to heat the skins as you do
functions that will end up in riveting locations. For example heat them as
you locate rivet holes. What does the factory say about this. They have to
have an opinion. Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mineart" <smineart@kdsi.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: cold-weather building
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" <smineart@kdsi.net>
>
> Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my
> wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in
> the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins
to
> install them sometimes.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New 912 prices! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Bombardier sold off their most profitable divisions to gain some cash
reserves to invest in their aircraft/train divisions, as I understand it.
They still hold 30% ownership in Rotax, the remainder bought by a Quebec
government credit union. I doubt the sale has anything to do with the price
of engines.
Dave
> List . . . I don't know if this is the reason, but I read that Bombardier
> has recent sold their sports divisions (ski doo, Rotax, etc.) and going to
> concentrate on the heavy iron (planes and trains).
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: cold-weather building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
I built mine in a marginally heated basement shop -- usually about 50F. No
difference noted during summer 90F days. Wing skins don't seem any tighter
or looser than others I've seen. There's always a little bulge up in flight
- but that's so even on a Piper aircraft with heavier duty wings.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" <smineart@kdsi.net>
>>
>> Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my
>> wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in
>> the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins
> to
>> install them sometimes.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: cold-weather building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
> Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my
> wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in
> the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins
to
> install them sometimes.
>
The coefficient of thermal expansion for 6061-T6 is .0000135"/in x (in x
degrees F) or
if it warms up 40 degrees F there is less than a 1/16" change in length for
a 96" piece of aluminum.
The parts the skin attaches to are also affected so one could only get in
trouble by playing with
a significant temperature difference between skins and structure.
Larry McFarland 601hds at www.macsmachine.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: cold-weather building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Frisby" <marslander@hotmail.com>
Don't the spars, skins,ribs all shrink/expand about the same rate? If you
needed to heat the skins to get them right for cold weather, you'd have to
heat them hotter for hot weather. What am I missing here?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: New 912 prices! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman <stutzman@stutzman.com>
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Dave Pepper wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> And this is because everyone is so ready and willing to pay too much for
> everything "aviation." We all need to just refuse to pay.....then watch
> prices drop. When I bought my 912S from Zenith, they wanted $12,500! I said
> "no way", I'm not paying that price for old technology. They emailed me a
> day later, and said I could have it for $11,680 (still very overpriced)!!!!
> Go figure that one out! Now, if we refused collectively to pay exhorbitant
> prices, they would drop dramatically.
Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines
at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them
to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all. They
have enough other places to make a buck without dealing with high
liability markets like homebuilt aircraft.
Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new
from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker.
Aviation isn't cheap.
Frank Stutzman
Hood River, OR
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: New 912 prices! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines
> at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them
> to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all.
Oh Bombardier will continue to sell the 914.....which, I understand, is the
engine that powers the unmanned drone that goes around the world firing
missiles at people that Bush doesn't like! And we all know the military
overpays for everything because the taxpayer gets to foot the bill for every
little toy the military wants, so this is gold mine for Bombardier. The 912
is the smaller brother of the 914, so why not keep homebuilt market wrapped
up along with the military.
> Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new
> from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker.
True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a
snowmobile engine maker.
Message 11
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| Subject: | cold-weather building |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jensenm33@sbcglobal.net>
Guys, Remember that the rest of the wing will shrink the same amount at the
lower temperature..
Jerry Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant Corriveau
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cold-weather building
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
I built mine in a marginally heated basement shop -- usually about 50F. No
difference noted during summer 90F days. Wing skins don't seem any tighter
or looser than others I've seen. There's always a little bulge up in flight
- but that's so even on a Piper aircraft with heavier duty wings.
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart"
>> --> <smineart@kdsi.net>
>>
>> Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building
>> my wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy
>> sitting out in the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV
>> builders heat their skins
> to
>> install them sometimes.
>>
>>
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 912 break-in |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
In answer to the question about the 914 at the Rotax school:
As I recall, and remember that the school was in 1997, the 912 was the main
event.
We, the students completely disassembled and then re-assembled a 912.
Tucker then went into the obvious differences, additions, operational
aspects, of the 914 as opposed to the 912.
I do not remember that there was a complete 914 present. The particular
school I addended was at the old "Leading Edge AirFoils" (LEAF) while it was still
in Colorado Springs.
However, should anybody get the opportunity to make one of these schools,
especially where Tucker is the instructor, do it. You may not be a mechanic
when it is over, but you will know where all the parts are on your engine. And
you can change spark plugs by yourself.
Zed Smith
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: New 912 prices! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 11/17/2003 1:17:22 PM Mountain Standard Time,
rockinrimranch@earthlink.net writes:
>
> True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a
> snowmobile engine maker.
>
>
And a DAMN good one at that. !!!! Wanna Race ????
Ben Haas. N801BH, and of course a PolTax racer.
do not archive for sure..
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
With the general misinformation floating about on the list I thought I would
pass on a few facts.
1. The 912 and 914 are the smaller of the 912 series of AIRCRAFT PURPOSE
BUILT engines. The 912S has a larger displacement and higher compression
than the others. The 914 generates more horsepower with the addition of the
turbocharger.
2. There is nothing similar between the Rotax snowmobile engines and the
Rotax engines specified by Zenith for installation in the 601 family of
aircraft.
3. They (Rotax) offer a certificated version of each type, if you care to
spend as much as they charge for a Continental or Lycoming Engine (There is
no difference in the parts or manufacturing process).
4. Bombardier, which is based in Montreal, reached an agreement to sell the
Recreational Products Division to a corporation formed by entities including
Bain Capital and members of its founding Bombardier family for 1.23 billion
Canadian dollars, or $879.1 million. Bain Capital will hold 50 percent
interest in the acquiring corporation, and the Bombardier family will hold
35 percent interest. The Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec, a financial
institution that manages funds for public and private pension and insurance
plans, will hold a 15 percent stake.
5. It's the innovation of companies like Rotax and Jabaru and some of the
auto conversions that make building reliable homebuilts more affordable.
6. And yes, they still need to make a profit too! That's economics.
Dave
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines
> at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them
> to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all.
Oh Bombardier will continue to sell the 914.....which, I understand, is the
engine that powers the unmanned drone that goes around the world firing
missiles at people that Bush doesn't like! And we all know the military
overpays for everything because the taxpayer gets to foot the bill for every
little toy the military wants, so this is gold mine for Bombardier. The 912
is the smaller brother of the 914, so why not keep homebuilt market wrapped
up along with the military.
> Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new
> from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker.
True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a
snowmobile engine maker.
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: New 912 prices! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Dixon" <dix39@charter.net>
But......they (912) only last half as long (1000 hr,). Does that mean they
effectively cost TWICE as much??
Hey, I just had to say that.
Steve Dixon (0-200/701)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New 912 prices!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
>
> With the general misinformation floating about on the list I thought I
would
> pass on a few facts.
>
> 1. The 912 and 914 are the smaller of the 912 series of AIRCRAFT PURPOSE
> BUILT engines. The 912S has a larger displacement and higher compression
> than the others. The 914 generates more horsepower with the addition of
the
> turbocharger.
>
> 2. There is nothing similar between the Rotax snowmobile engines and the
> Rotax engines specified by Zenith for installation in the 601 family of
> aircraft.
>
> 3. They (Rotax) offer a certificated version of each type, if you care to
> spend as much as they charge for a Continental or Lycoming Engine (There
is
> no difference in the parts or manufacturing process).
>
> 4. Bombardier, which is based in Montreal, reached an agreement to sell
the
> Recreational Products Division to a corporation formed by entities
including
> Bain Capital and members of its founding Bombardier family for 1.23
billion
> Canadian dollars, or $879.1 million. Bain Capital will hold 50 percent
> interest in the acquiring corporation, and the Bombardier family will hold
> 35 percent interest. The Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec, a
financial
> institution that manages funds for public and private pension and
insurance
> plans, will hold a 15 percent stake.
>
> 5. It's the innovation of companies like Rotax and Jabaru and some of the
> auto conversions that make building reliable homebuilts more affordable.
>
> 6. And yes, they still need to make a profit too! That's economics.
>
> Dave
> do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices!
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
>
> >
> > Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines
> > at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them
> > to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all.
>
> Oh Bombardier will continue to sell the 914.....which, I understand, is
the
> engine that powers the unmanned drone that goes around the world firing
> missiles at people that Bush doesn't like! And we all know the military
> overpays for everything because the taxpayer gets to foot the bill for
every
> little toy the military wants, so this is gold mine for Bombardier. The
912
> is the smaller brother of the 914, so why not keep homebuilt market
wrapped
> up along with the military.
>
>
> > Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new
> > from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker.
>
> True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a
> snowmobile engine maker.
>
> do not archive
>
>
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