---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/17/03: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:28 AM - Re: 912 break-in (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 2. 05:38 AM - cold-weather building (Steve Mineart) 3. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: 912 break-in (Daniel Vandenberg) 4. 07:23 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Thomas F Marson) 5. 08:59 AM - Re: New 912 prices! (Dave Pepper) 6. 09:57 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Grant Corriveau) 7. 10:49 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Larry McFarland) 8. 11:45 AM - Re: cold-weather building (Jim Frisby) 9. 12:04 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Frank Stutzman) 10. 12:15 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Dave Pepper) 11. 01:43 PM - Re: cold-weather building () 12. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: 912 break-in (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 13. 06:43 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Benford2@aol.com) 14. 07:19 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Dave Alberti) 15. 08:26 PM - Re: New 912 prices! (Steve Dixon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:40 AM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 912 break-in --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com The factory school series taught by Eric Tucker explains how the 912/914 rngines are tested at the factory. It is a bit early in the day for me to dig out school notes and handouts, but if memory serves correctly, both the big boys are run 15 minutes WIDE OPEN. This is done using propane as fuel, and no muffler. I do recall the look of amazement of all attendees when Tucker shared this bit of info with the class. So, in answer to the original question as to a "break-in" period, unless some other lister says otherwise, I do not recall such an animal. I would change the oil after the first hour, then the next hour, then per your own schedule after that. Zed Smith/701/R912/90% DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:35 AM PST US From: "Steve Mineart" Subject: Zenith-List: cold-weather building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins to install them sometimes. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:40 AM PST US From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 912 break-in --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Zed... Perhaps I could mine your experience at the Rotax course for one more thing. Did yo get much exposure to the 914 at the course? Could you comment on your impressions of installation, maintenance, & operating workload/headaches of the 914 as opposed to the 912/912S? Thanks. Dan ZSMITH3rd@aol.com wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com The factory school series taught by Eric Tucker explains how the 912/914 rngines are tested at the factory. It is a bit early in the day for me to dig out school notes and handouts, but if memory serves correctly, both the big boys are run 15 minutes WIDE OPEN. This is done using propane as fuel, and no muffler. I do recall the look of amazement of all attendees when Tucker shared this bit of info with the class. So, in answer to the original question as to a "break-in" period, unless some other lister says otherwise, I do not recall such an animal. I would change the oil after the first hour, then the next hour, then per your own schedule after that. Zed Smith/701/R912/90% DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:01 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cold-weather building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Good point Steve. I might be a good idea to heat the skins as you do functions that will end up in riveting locations. For example heat them as you locate rivet holes. What does the factory say about this. They have to have an opinion. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Mineart" Subject: Zenith-List: cold-weather building > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" > > Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my > wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in > the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins to > install them sometimes. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:21 AM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Bombardier sold off their most profitable divisions to gain some cash reserves to invest in their aircraft/train divisions, as I understand it. They still hold 30% ownership in Rotax, the remainder bought by a Quebec government credit union. I doubt the sale has anything to do with the price of engines. Dave > List . . . I don't know if this is the reason, but I read that Bombardier > has recent sold their sports divisions (ski doo, Rotax, etc.) and going to > concentrate on the heavy iron (planes and trains). ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cold-weather building From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau I built mine in a marginally heated basement shop -- usually about 50F. No difference noted during summer 90F days. Wing skins don't seem any tighter or looser than others I've seen. There's always a little bulge up in flight - but that's so even on a Piper aircraft with heavier duty wings. -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" >> >> Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my >> wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in >> the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins > to >> install them sometimes. >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:24 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cold-weather building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building my > wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy sitting out in > the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV builders heat their skins to > install them sometimes. > The coefficient of thermal expansion for 6061-T6 is .0000135"/in x (in x degrees F) or if it warms up 40 degrees F there is less than a 1/16" change in length for a 96" piece of aluminum. The parts the skin attaches to are also affected so one could only get in trouble by playing with a significant temperature difference between skins and structure. Larry McFarland 601hds at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:14 AM PST US From: "Jim Frisby" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cold-weather building --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Frisby" Don't the spars, skins,ribs all shrink/expand about the same rate? If you needed to heat the skins to get them right for cold weather, you'd have to heat them hotter for hot weather. What am I missing here? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:52 PM PST US From: Frank Stutzman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Dave Pepper wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > And this is because everyone is so ready and willing to pay too much for > everything "aviation." We all need to just refuse to pay.....then watch > prices drop. When I bought my 912S from Zenith, they wanted $12,500! I said > "no way", I'm not paying that price for old technology. They emailed me a > day later, and said I could have it for $11,680 (still very overpriced)!!!! > Go figure that one out! Now, if we refused collectively to pay exhorbitant > prices, they would drop dramatically. Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all. They have enough other places to make a buck without dealing with high liability markets like homebuilt aircraft. Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker. Aviation isn't cheap. Frank Stutzman Hood River, OR ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:28 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines > at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them > to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all. Oh Bombardier will continue to sell the 914.....which, I understand, is the engine that powers the unmanned drone that goes around the world firing missiles at people that Bush doesn't like! And we all know the military overpays for everything because the taxpayer gets to foot the bill for every little toy the military wants, so this is gold mine for Bombardier. The 912 is the smaller brother of the 914, so why not keep homebuilt market wrapped up along with the military. > Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new > from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker. True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a snowmobile engine maker. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:55 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: cold-weather building --> Zenith-List message posted by: Guys, Remember that the rest of the wing will shrink the same amount at the lower temperature.. Jerry Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grant Corriveau Subject: Re: Zenith-List: cold-weather building --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau I built mine in a marginally heated basement shop -- usually about 50F. No difference noted during summer 90F days. Wing skins don't seem any tighter or looser than others I've seen. There's always a little bulge up in flight - but that's so even on a Piper aircraft with heavier duty wings. -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 >> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Mineart" >> --> >> >> Maybe some of you northerners can answer this: if I press on building >> my wings in my 40-degree garage, will my wing skins look saggy >> sitting out in the 100-degree heat some day? I notice that RV >> builders heat their skins > to >> install them sometimes. >> >> > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:43 PM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 912 break-in --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com In answer to the question about the 914 at the Rotax school: As I recall, and remember that the school was in 1997, the 912 was the main event. We, the students completely disassembled and then re-assembled a 912. Tucker then went into the obvious differences, additions, operational aspects, of the 914 as opposed to the 912. I do not remember that there was a complete 914 present. The particular school I addended was at the old "Leading Edge AirFoils" (LEAF) while it was still in Colorado Springs. However, should anybody get the opportunity to make one of these schools, especially where Tucker is the instructor, do it. You may not be a mechanic when it is over, but you will know where all the parts are on your engine. And you can change spark plugs by yourself. Zed Smith DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:03 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 11/17/2003 1:17:22 PM Mountain Standard Time, rockinrimranch@earthlink.net writes: > > True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a > snowmobile engine maker. > > And a DAMN good one at that. !!!! Wanna Race ???? Ben Haas. N801BH, and of course a PolTax racer. do not archive for sure.. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:05 PM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" With the general misinformation floating about on the list I thought I would pass on a few facts. 1. The 912 and 914 are the smaller of the 912 series of AIRCRAFT PURPOSE BUILT engines. The 912S has a larger displacement and higher compression than the others. The 914 generates more horsepower with the addition of the turbocharger. 2. There is nothing similar between the Rotax snowmobile engines and the Rotax engines specified by Zenith for installation in the 601 family of aircraft. 3. They (Rotax) offer a certificated version of each type, if you care to spend as much as they charge for a Continental or Lycoming Engine (There is no difference in the parts or manufacturing process). 4. Bombardier, which is based in Montreal, reached an agreement to sell the Recreational Products Division to a corporation formed by entities including Bain Capital and members of its founding Bombardier family for 1.23 billion Canadian dollars, or $879.1 million. Bain Capital will hold 50 percent interest in the acquiring corporation, and the Bombardier family will hold 35 percent interest. The Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec, a financial institution that manages funds for public and private pension and insurance plans, will hold a 15 percent stake. 5. It's the innovation of companies like Rotax and Jabaru and some of the auto conversions that make building reliable homebuilts more affordable. 6. And yes, they still need to make a profit too! That's economics. Dave do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Pepper Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines > at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them > to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all. Oh Bombardier will continue to sell the 914.....which, I understand, is the engine that powers the unmanned drone that goes around the world firing missiles at people that Bush doesn't like! And we all know the military overpays for everything because the taxpayer gets to foot the bill for every little toy the military wants, so this is gold mine for Bombardier. The 912 is the smaller brother of the 914, so why not keep homebuilt market wrapped up along with the military. > Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new > from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker. True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a snowmobile engine maker. do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:12 PM PST US From: "Steve Dixon" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Dixon" But......they (912) only last half as long (1000 hr,). Does that mean they effectively cost TWICE as much?? Hey, I just had to say that. Steve Dixon (0-200/701) DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" > > With the general misinformation floating about on the list I thought I would > pass on a few facts. > > 1. The 912 and 914 are the smaller of the 912 series of AIRCRAFT PURPOSE > BUILT engines. The 912S has a larger displacement and higher compression > than the others. The 914 generates more horsepower with the addition of the > turbocharger. > > 2. There is nothing similar between the Rotax snowmobile engines and the > Rotax engines specified by Zenith for installation in the 601 family of > aircraft. > > 3. They (Rotax) offer a certificated version of each type, if you care to > spend as much as they charge for a Continental or Lycoming Engine (There is > no difference in the parts or manufacturing process). > > 4. Bombardier, which is based in Montreal, reached an agreement to sell the > Recreational Products Division to a corporation formed by entities including > Bain Capital and members of its founding Bombardier family for 1.23 billion > Canadian dollars, or $879.1 million. Bain Capital will hold 50 percent > interest in the acquiring corporation, and the Bombardier family will hold > 35 percent interest. The Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec, a financial > institution that manages funds for public and private pension and insurance > plans, will hold a 15 percent stake. > > 5. It's the innovation of companies like Rotax and Jabaru and some of the > auto conversions that make building reliable homebuilts more affordable. > > 6. And yes, they still need to make a profit too! That's economics. > > Dave > do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Pepper > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New 912 prices! > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > > > > > > Could be the only reason that Bombardier sees a market for these engines > > at all is because they can get a high profit margin on them. Force them > > to drop their prices and they might decide not to sell them at all. > > Oh Bombardier will continue to sell the 914.....which, I understand, is the > engine that powers the unmanned drone that goes around the world firing > missiles at people that Bush doesn't like! And we all know the military > overpays for everything because the taxpayer gets to foot the bill for every > little toy the military wants, so this is gold mine for Bombardier. The 912 > is the smaller brother of the 914, so why not keep homebuilt market wrapped > up along with the military. > > > > Bought a new engine from Lycoming or Continental lately? An O-200 new > > from Continental is $19K. Kinda makes Rotax look like a piker. > > True, but Continental is a real aircraft engine, whereas Rotax is a > snowmobile engine maker. > > do not archive > >