Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:20 AM - Water Cooled Solutions (Larry McFarland)
2. 07:30 AM - Data plate question (Larry McFarland)
3. 08:04 AM - Re: Data plate question (Gary Liming)
4. 08:04 AM - Re: Data plate question (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: Data plate question (Dave Alberti)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: Data plate question (Brett Ray)
7. 10:05 AM - fuel shut off valves (Jack Russell)
8. 10:31 AM - Re: fuel shut off valves (wizard-24@juno.com)
9. 11:56 AM - 701 Fwd. fuselage to Rear Fuselage (LARRY BOHANNON)
10. 12:36 PM - Re: Cortec primer question (Robert Schoenberger)
11. 12:51 PM - Re: Cortec primer question (Jon Croke)
12. 01:01 PM - Re: 701 Fwd. fuselage to Rear Fuselage (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
13. 01:04 PM - Re: fuel shut off valves (Jack Russell)
14. 01:10 PM - Re: 701 Fwd. fuselage to Rear Fuselage (Benford2@aol.com)
15. 02:39 PM - Re: fuel shut off valves (Bryan Martin)
16. 03:37 PM - Re: fuel shut off valves (Jack Russell)
17. 04:11 PM - Re: Need a prop (Jeff Reuschle)
18. 04:18 PM - Re: Cortec primer question (Aaron)
19. 04:35 PM - Re: fuel shut off valves (Frank Jones)
20. 05:39 PM - Re: Prop (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
21. 07:00 PM - Re: fuel shut off valves (Jeffrey Davidson)
22. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: Prop (Brett Ray)
23. 11:40 PM - Re: fuel shut off valves (wizard-24@juno.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Water Cooled Solutions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Hi list,
Seems very quiet lately, probably because of the holidays
but I recieved a book that should be a must-read for the
Subaru user. It's Alternative Engines Volume 2 by Mick Myal and
it was ordered thru the Builders Bookstore. It covers a lot
of Subaru cooling solutions that run the total gamut.
It's very well illustrated and examines a multitude of homebuilt
aircraft as well as historical evolved wartime liquid cooled designs.
Of the automotive engines covered, a good many of the homebuilts
are Subaru. In wing radiators and the airflow results are shown
for a mulitude of variations from earliest to the latest modern applications.
Several VW Rabbit radiator installations are examined, discussed
and well illustrated for approaches that work best to improve cooling issues.
This book covers redrives, mounts and systems in detail. For $43.00, I think
it's a bargan and a very interesting read for the experimenter.
Happy Holidays,
Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Data plate question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Hi list,
My question is this;
The "Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft" placard that has
all the aircraft data, model, serial, engine type etc has a
date of manufacture on it and I'd like to know if that date is
tied to the final inspection date or some other milestone.
What have you done?
Would like to get it engraved and attached soon.
Larry McFarland
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Data plate question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
At 09:24 AM 12/20/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
>Hi list,
>My question is this;
>
>The "Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft" placard that has
>all the aircraft data, model, serial, engine type etc has a
>date of manufacture on it and I'd like to know if that date is
>tied to the final inspection date or some other milestone.
>
>What have you done?
Hi Larry,
You can pretty much put whatever date you want there, since as the
manufacturer, you can declare any date to be the "done" date. (When is it
ever really done??)
One consideration about this date is if you live in a state that has
personal property taxes on airplanes. This date MAY be used to determine
when the taxable value changed from a pile of sheet metal to one of a
functional aircraft. Id this is the case, you might want to postpone the
date as log as possible (After phase 1?), but the DAR will probably want to
see something there.
Having said that, if you're that close to completion, you really should
talk to the guy who will be your DAR about that ahead of time just to avoid
any issues he may have. I've seen that some DAR's have particular issues
they home in on - some insist that ELT be mounted in the rear fuse since
forward ones don't survive a crash very well, some are particular on the
lettering used for placards and markings, etc. Ask him is there is
anything he looks especially for.
Also, be advised there is a new application for airworthiness form that you
will need, not one that you got out of a 2 year old packet. One DAR even
insisted it be on a single sheet (both sides printed) instead of printed
out from the web site on two sheets. You can go the faa website to see if
yours is te current one, or contact your FSDO for a copy.
Sometimes they want some things that are not in the regs, and you have a
choice to challenge them or just give in. Usually, giving in the best idea
since it is usually founded on a safety issue, and many things this way can
be taken care of right away.
If you want it to pass first time, though, I think the best thing to
prepare is to talk to your DAR and ask how you can make sure you will have
everything he wants to see. Ask him what things he made other builders
change, and that will give you some idea.
Hope this helps,
Gary Liming
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Data plate question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
Larry,
In 1999 I dated one in November, but the final inspectiopn was in December.
Probably doesn't make much difference as long as manufacture date is prior to
inspection date.
Zed Smith/701/R912/90% w/99% to go
Message 5
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| Subject: | Data plate question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
When you say it's done it's done. That's it.
-----Original Message-----
Hi list,
My question is this;
The "Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft" placard that has
all the aircraft data, model, serial, engine type etc has a
date of manufacture on it and I'd like to know if that date is
tied to the final inspection date or some other milestone.
What have you done?
Would like to get it engraved and attached soon.
Larry McFarland
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Data plate question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
The date that is on mine is about a month befor the inspection. I
think it is what ever you make it.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
<larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Hi list,
> My question is this;
>
> The "Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft" placard that has
> all the aircraft data, model, serial, engine type etc has a
> date of manufacture on it and I'd like to know if that date is
> tied to the final inspection date or some other milestone.
>
> What have you done?
>
> Would like to get it engraved and attached soon.
>
> Larry McFarland
>
>
> _-
=======================================================================
=
> _-
=======================================================================
=
> _-
=======================================================================
=
> _-
=======================================================================
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
-- Thanks
Brett Ray
owner Hog Air
Message 7
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| Subject: | fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Can anyone tell me if the 2 wing shut off valves are required at the wing root
if I am using a center right/left/both/off valve on the center console. I want
to run the flexible fuel line directly to this center valve and avoid any other
possible leaks with fittings. I can't think of any safety issues by not using
them unless you are planning to rip the wings off in a crash and even then
I am not sure I would have remembered to turn off the valves. Thanks in advance.
Jack Russell -Clovis CA
601 XL Jabiru 3300
Progress update at:
http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> Can anyone tell me if the 2 wing shut off valves are required at the
> wing root if I am using a center right/left/both/off valve on the
> center console.
Nope, you don't need those other valves -- they're provided in the event
you don't choose to use a center console mounted valve.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Message 9
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| Subject: | 701 Fwd. fuselage to Rear Fuselage |
Seal-Send-Time: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:55:53 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LARRY BOHANNON" <lbohannon1@msn.com>
Hi list,
I'm just finishing up drilling and clecoing the Fwd. fuselage Cabin Sides (Section
9 Fuselage, in photo manual).I'm now ready to rivet.
Question 1. Is it best to rivet the normal way from the outside and just let the
rivet "tail" protrude into the cabin area floor or let the head be inside the
cabin and the tail protrude into the outside bottom?
Question 2. The next section 10 calls for leveling the rear fuselage along Ref.
line A-E. Since the ref. line is a few mm below the top of Fuselage do you just
use a string stretched along the side with maybe a line "string" level ?
Thanks in advance for any help/opinions.
Regards,
Larry Bohannon
701SP
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Cortec primer question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
Jon . . . My Cortec (undiluted) brushes on fine, but the end product is not
smooth. Brushmarks are visible. The product is definitely not self
leveling. I diluted a small sample and was not satisfied with the result at
all. Another builder, Larry Bohannon, I believe, said to barely touch the
tip of the brush into the Cortec. I do this and then spot the area to be
coated in two or three places and then brush like crazy. This works fine
for me. I made the mistake of putting it on too heavy in the beginning.
The product literature talks of a coating a few mills thick.
I considered using the foam brush, but was worried that the foam would soak
up too much product. Assuming the corrosion protection is as good, this
surely beats working with ZnChr. Robert Schoenberger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Cortec primer question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
>
> Is anyone that is using the Coretc primer having a problem similar to
mine?
>
> It seems that upon application (using a brush) that the wet coating beads
up
> and leaves a less than uniform coating on the aluminum. Using a brush to
> redistribute when still wet doesnt seem to help much. I have tried
different
> degrees of thinning and cant seem to improve the situation.
>
> What is your experience using this product?
>
> Jon
> 701US rear fuselage almost done
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Cortec primer question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Robert,
You are right... even with all of my complaining, I also like using it
compared to working with the ZnChr... tho, am still getting used to its
clear color... beginning to like that too -- no worry about over brushing
and making a green mess!
You may be using a better bristle brush than I was... the foam pad really
does a better job for me at covering compared to my cheap brush.
starting to get cold in Green Bay... good time to be building!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger"
<hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
> Jon . . . My Cortec (undiluted) brushes on fine, but the end product is
not
> smooth. Brushmarks are visible. The product is definitely not self
> leveling. I diluted a small sample and was not satisfied with the result
at
> all. Another builder, Larry Bohannon, I believe, said to barely touch the
> tip of the brush into the Cortec. I do this and then spot the area to be
> coated in two or three places and then brush like crazy. This works fine
> for me. I made the mistake of putting it on too heavy in the beginning.
> The product literature talks of a coating a few mills thick.
>
> I considered using the foam brush, but was worried that the foam would
soak
> up too much product. Assuming the corrosion protection is as good, this
> surely beats working with ZnChr. Robert Schoenberger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Cortec primer question
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
> >
> > Is anyone that is using the Coretc primer having a problem similar to
> mine?
> >
> > It seems that upon application (using a brush) that the wet coating
beads
> up
> > and leaves a less than uniform coating on the aluminum. Using a brush
to
> > redistribute when still wet doesnt seem to help much. I have tried
> different
> > degrees of thinning and cant seem to improve the situation.
> >
> > What is your experience using this product?
> >
> > Jon
> > 701US rear fuselage almost done
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Fwd. fuselage to Rear Fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
I have some of both: It just depended on where the rivet was located, like
was it near an area where feet might be in flight. Otherwise I did whatever
seemed best. Some rivets cannot be pulled with the fuselage sitting on a work
table. You have to scoot it over the edge or turn it upsidedown. Therefore,
the reason for my mixture since I don't have anyone to help manhandle the
thing.
As to the "Line A-B" business: I established that line per the drawings,
lots of looking, measuring, etc. Since I had the whole thing up on a level table
I also measured from the table top up to the "A: & "B" points just to check
my string.
I have one of those digital "smart levels" that I then used to measure
several points and record them with a Marks-A-Lot right there on the spot. My
floor, between the front of the seat and the rudder pedals is "plus 6 degrees".
This made it much easier to rock the fuselage back in order to rivet under it
and then return to the "A-B" level position.......simply rock it to +6 and
move on.
Hope this might be helpful.
Zed Smith/701/R912/do not archive/a Ho-Ho-Ho to all
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Thanks for reinforcing my opinon Mike. The next question is should I use the "C"
holes in nose ribs 1-4 to bring the fuel line into the cockpit at floor level
instead of the layout the drawings show which will bring the line in half way
up on the center spar? I see there is a protection channel they provide to run
the fuel lines on the floorboard. Thanks.
wizard-24@juno.com wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> Can anyone tell me if the 2 wing shut off valves are required at the
> wing root if I am using a center right/left/both/off valve on the
> center console.
Nope, you don't need those other valves -- they're provided in the event
you don't choose to use a center console mounted valve.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Jack Russell -Clovis CA
601 XL Jabiru 3300
Progress update at:
http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Fwd. fuselage to Rear Fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 12/20/2003 12:57:29 PM Mountain Standard Time,
lbohannon1@msn.com writes:
>
>
> Hi list,
> I'm just finishing up drilling and clecoing the Fwd. fuselage Cabin Sides
> (Section 9 Fuselage, in photo manual).I'm now ready to rivet.
> Question 1. Is it best to rivet the normal way from the outside and just let
> the rivet "tail" protrude into the cabin area floor or let the head be
> inside the cabin and the tail protrude into the outside bottom?
> Question 2. The next section 10 calls for leveling the rear fuselage along
> Ref. line A-E. Since the ref. line is a few mm below the top of Fuselage do
> you just use a string stretched along the side with maybe a line "string" level
> ?
> Thanks in advance for any help/opinions.
>
>
Let the tail end up inside the cockpit. The floor covering will hide these..
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 12/20/03 4:04 PM, Jack Russell at clojan@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Thanks for reinforcing my opinon Mike. The next question is should I use the
> "C" holes in nose ribs 1-4 to bring the fuel line into the cockpit at floor
> level instead of the layout the drawings show which will bring the line in
> half way up on the center spar? I see there is a protection channel they
> provide to run the fuel lines on the floorboard. Thanks.
It's best to run the fuel lines downhill from the tanks to the gascolater
with no local low spots where water and sediments can settle out in the
lines. The wing dihedral helps with this as the bottom of the tanks are
higher than the cabin floor. My fuel lines run downhill all the way to the
gascolater and then uphill all the way to the carbs. That way I only need to
drain water at the gascolater and at each tank.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Almost done.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Bryan: I can agree with this execpt with the center shut off valve on the center
console (8 to 10" above the floor) the fuel will have to run uphill before the
gascolator unless you use 2 gascolators on each side. I was planning on the
gascolator on the firewall. I would think that the flow of fuel would carry any
water to sediments to the gascolator.Thanks Jack
Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:It's best to run the fuel lines downhill
from the tanks to the gascolater
with no local low spots where water and sediments can settle out in the
lines. The wing dihedral helps with this as the bottom of the tanks are
higher than the cabin floor. My fuel lines run downhill all the way to the
gascolater and then uphill all the way to the carbs. That way I only need to
drain water at the gascolater and at each tank.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Almost done.
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Reuschle" <jreuschle@mindspring.com>
The three blade prop is 60 inch. I also have a two blade Warp Drive Taper
prop that is 66 inch.
Jeff Reuschle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Need a prop
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
>
> I will measure the bolt pattern tomorrow and get back to you. What
> size is the prop?
> And thanks for the wep site for checking the prop.
>
> Brett
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Reuschle"
> <jreuschle@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Brett,
> >
> > I have a three blade IVO Ground Adustable prop in new condition for
> a Rotax
> > 2 Cycle Engine. I don't know if it fits the Rotax 4 Cycle
> configuration.
> >
> > I would sell it for $ 200.00.
> >
> > Jeff Reuschle
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
> > To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Zenith-List: Need a prop
> >
> >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > I am looking for a new prop for testing. I need something smaller
> > > around 60 or 62 in. ground adjustable. I want to turn more RPM on
> the
> > > motor than is safe to do with the big prop. I also need the Rotax
> bolt
> > > pattern. Anybody have one for sale?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _-
> =======================================================================
> > > _-
> =======================================================================
> > > _-
> =======================================================================
> > > _-
> =======================================================================
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> -- Thanks
> Brett Ray
> owner Hog Air
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Cortec primer question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Aaron" <agustafson@chartermi.net>
I use zinc chromate applied with bandage gauze held in a spring clothes pin
w/ extension. Thinned, it goes on smooth and even and looks professional.
When I'm done I just drop the gauze in the garbage, no cleaning, no mess.
Works great and its cheep.
Aaron 601HDTD
Message 19
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| Subject: | fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" <fjones@sympatico.ca>
>Bryan: I can agree with this execpt with the center shut off valve on
the >center console (8 to 10" above the floor) the fuel will have to run
uphill >before the gascolator unless you use 2 gascolators on each side.
I was >planning on the gascolator on the firewall. I would think that
the flow of >fuel would carry any water to sediments to the
gascolator.Thanks Jack
My two cents on this. I'd go with a L/R/OFF and not have a BOTH valve.
With low wing a/c if you have it set to BOTH and one wing tank is dry
you'll suck air and not get the benefit of the fuel in the other tank.
Also, on the gascolator. I'd work hard to keep it at the lowest point in
the fuel system. Putting the gascolator on the firewall means it isn't.
Also, running the lines up to the valve would leave low points in the
line that are undrainable. This is where sediment and water (frozen in
the winter) can accumulate. I kept my gascolator at the lowest point and
stuck my L/R/Off valve on the cabin floor. You can get an expensive
Andair valve with an extension that would allow you to keep the valve
low if you want the center console selector.
Frank
C-GYXQ 601XL 912S
Ottawa
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
I have a three-blade Warp Drive PUSHER currently on a 912.
Will be putting the engine on new 701 and won't need the prop.
Brett doesn't say which side of the Harley he's using, but we must assume he
needs a tractor prop.
Zed Smith/701/R912/ do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" <jeffrey.davidson@earthlink.net>
Frank wrote:
> My two cents on this. I'd go with a L/R/OFF and not have a BOTH valve.
> With low wing a/c if you have it set to BOTH and one wing tank is dry
> you'll suck air and not get the benefit of the fuel in the other tank.
I'd have to agree with Frank. Not because I know, but because I put this
question to Chris Heintz in the form of a diagram of my fuel system. The
concern is that some inspectors will require that the two tanks be vented
together if they are interconnected (via the BOTH position). That means you
may need a vent line between the two tanks. The concern is in the case
that one tank's vent line is blocked by an insect nest or similar. With the
interconnecting vent line in place, both tanks are vented by the other
tank's vent line allowing you to draw fuel from it. If you can't draw fuel
from either one, you have a situation similar to what Frank described. It
was clear to me that this advice was born of experience, not regulation.
This interconnection could be difficult to route through the fuselage after
the plane is finished if the DAR objects at inspection time. You might
check with your prospective inspector now to see what they think.
Jeff Davidson
CH601 HD
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
Yes its a tractor. And sitting behind it it turns Clock Wise or to the
right
I also need the H.P. rating for the prop.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
>
> I have a three-blade Warp Drive PUSHER currently on a 912.
> Will be putting the engine on new 701 and won't need the prop.
> Brett doesn't say which side of the Harley he's using, but we must
assume he
> needs a tractor prop.
>
> Zed Smith/701/R912/ do not archive
>
>
> _-
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>
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>
-- Thanks
Brett Ray
owner Hog Air
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: fuel shut off valves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> Bryan: I can agree with this execpt with the center shut off valve
> on the center console (8 to 10" above the floor) the fuel will have
> to run uphill before the gascolator unless you use 2 gascolators on
> each side.
Jack, the answers everyone has been giving you is all sound advice, but
I'm not sure everyone (including me) knows your exact set-up. Do you have
4 tanks, or just 2? Is the console-mounted selector valve a 4-way, which
means you can only select any one tank at a time? (no "both" setting?).
In my situation, I have two tanks in each wing, with separate fuel lines
for each one per ZAC's original XL plans. Because I installed them per
the original plans, the fuel lines in the wings run downhill to the cabin
floor...so I had to install 2 small gascolators on each side (instead of
the one large gascolator as shown on the plans, since the selector valve
would have to be after a single gascolator). From these small
gascolators, each fuel line runs uphill to the 4-way selector valve on
the center console, and from there on to the fuel pumps and carb.
If you install the fuel lines per the newer auxilliary tank drawing
6-WKO-1 (4/03), then you won't need the smaller gascolators since the
lines run a constant uphill in the nose ribs towards the fuel selector on
the center console. (You would also need the newer fuel tanks where the
inboard fuel tube is angled upward).
Hope some of this makes sense, but email me off list if it doesn't. It
shouldn't be this tough, if ZAC would have worked all this out looonnnggg
ago....
Mike Fortunato
601XL
wizard-24@juno.com
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