---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/17/03: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:10 AM - Re: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes (Bryan Martin) 2. 05:46 AM - Re: Weatherstrip adhesive (David Barth) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: Some updates... (Gary Liming) 4. 06:40 AM - Re: Some updates... (Michel Therrien) 5. 06:43 AM - Re: Weatherstrip adhesive (Michel Therrien) 6. 06:51 AM - Re: Cortec Primer (H. Robert Schoenberger) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: Kit Planes (Michel Therrien) 8. 07:03 AM - Re: New Completions - Kit Planes (Gig) 9. 07:19 AM - Re: New Completions - Kit Planes (Scott Laughlin) 10. 07:42 AM - Rv's vs 601's, comparison to automobiles (charles.long@gm.com) 11. 08:16 AM - Re: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 12. 11:04 AM - Re: Kit Planes (Don Honabach) 13. 11:06 AM - Re: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes (Don Honabach) 14. 11:35 AM - Re: Kit Planes (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 15. 12:13 PM - HDS spring gear (Brandon Tucker) 16. 12:14 PM - HDS spring gear (Brandon Tucker) 17. 01:10 PM - Re: Kit Planes (Philip Polstra) 18. 01:46 PM - Re: Kit Planes (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 19. 02:11 PM - Re: Kit Planes (Philip Polstra) 20. 02:11 PM - Re: Some updates... (Zodie Rocket) 21. 02:58 PM - Re: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes (Larry McFarland) 22. 03:16 PM - The movement of radiator and coolant (Larry McFarland) 23. 03:27 PM - Re: HDS spring gear (wizard-24@juno.com) 24. 03:29 PM - Re: Kit Planes (wizard-24@juno.com) 25. 03:46 PM - Re: Importing a Kit to Australia, cost,tax,gst,customs. (hans blohm) 26. 04:02 PM - Re: Some updates... (Frank Jones) 27. 04:38 PM - Re: HDS spring gear (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 28. 04:55 PM - Re: Kit Planes (No 6) 29. 05:01 PM - Re: Some updates... (CLOJAN@aol.com) 30. 05:38 PM - Re: Kit Planes (Ramperf@aol.com) 31. 05:38 PM - Drilling wing skins - 601 XL (Mark Stauffer) 32. 05:58 PM - Re: Some updates... (Rick Pitcher) 33. 06:34 PM - RV popularity... (Grant Corriveau) 34. 07:19 PM - Re: Drilling wing skins - 601 XL (Dave Alberti) 35. 10:15 PM - Re: RV popularity... (Dr. Perry Morrison) 36. 10:29 PM - Re:New Completions - Kit Planes (Brenton Battles) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 7/17/03 12:53 AM, randall true at randtrue@yahoo.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: randall true > > Frank, you bring up a question for me and my lack of > airport hangout exposure. If the predrilled holes are > so helpfull on an RV, why does it take a year or two > to build a zenith, and 4 to 8 years for an RV? Solid flush rivets. On the Vans, you still have to dimple all those holes and buck all those rivets. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Working on instrument panel, electrical and interior. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:41 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Weatherstrip adhesive --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Michel. I see you have got your call letters. I see you will always end with Quebec. How nice for you....living there and all. Congrats. I sense you will be flying soon. David --- Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > > Thanks Fred for those details... I bought and used > PolyZap. Much easier to use than the slow setting > Weatherstrip adhesive. > > Michel, oh yes.... C-GZGQ! > ===== David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder Currently making parts. Stab, elevator and Rudder waiting for skins. Flaps and ailerons ready for inspection. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:50 AM PST US From: Gary Liming Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Liming > >I also installed the labels for the switches and >placards on my inst. panel. I used the technique >described on the RV Journal and I'm very satisfied >with the result. This is shown on my instruments >panel finishing page. Hi Michel, What software did you use to make the labels? I've tried Word, since it knows the label numbers, but I can't seem to position the lettering like I'd like to. Gary ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:03 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I used Excel, but I did not use mailing labels. The 05665 sheet are full sheet stickers. --- Gary Liming wrote: > > Hi Michel, > > What software did you use to make the labels? I've > tried Word, since it > knows the label numbers, but I can't seem to > position the lettering like > I'd like to. > > Gary > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:27 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Weatherstrip adhesive --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I did not choose the letters as there was a fee for that (reserving assigned letters cost nothing...) I did'nt even notice the Quebec thing (as being the province I live in). I hope to complete the plane in August (but it seems to be a long shot!). do not archive --- David Barth wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > > Michel. I see you have got your call letters. I > see > you will always end with Quebec. How nice for > you....living there and all. Congrats. I sense you > will be flying soon. > David ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:08 AM PST US From: "H. Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cortec Primer --> Zenith-List message posted by: "H. Robert Schoenberger" List . . . I would be interested once the 373 vs. 374 issue is resolved. The correspondence I had with the company indicated the 373 should be topcoated with 386 aluminum coating, but I'm not sure what aluminum coating is. I'm not too interested in a two coat installation. If this stuff is as good as it appears, I should think Aircraft Spruce should be made aware of it so they can repackage it into quart cans. The zinc chromate (qt. size) I bought from them last year had the appearance of repackaging (no company label etc.). Cortec makes it in green accornding to their website, and I think this is much more preferable than the clear both for seeing where the primer has been applied and also for a traditional appearance. If offered through Aircraft Spruce, I think the demand throughout the kitbuilders world would be quite high. Hap Schoenberger 701 tail completed, working on right wing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall Thomure" Subject: Zenith-List: Cortec Primer > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randall Thomure" > > I got in contact with Cortec today about their primers. > They recommended the VpCI-374, instead of the 373. > The 373 needs to be top coated, where the 374 is OK without a top coat. > > Unfortunately they only sell the stuff in 5 gal and 55 gal drums. > > Would there be enough interest for them to stock the stuff in quarts? > > Ill try to get some price estimates for 5 gals and their price for smaller > lots. > > Your guess on demand would be appreciated. > > Randy Thomure > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:09 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien See below: --- Norman Turner wrote: > ... If the RV's builders or / and > flyers wish to comment on RV's then do it on your > web site not on the ZENITH site. I thought that the Matronics mailing lists were totally independent from the kit suppliers. This is NOT a Zenith site and everyone should be entitled to opinions independent from ZAC or Zenair's ideas, objectives, opinions or wishes. (IMO) >... st to Ali > to the owner, it is a job I do with pride and faith > in Zenith aircraft. This site is just great for > information on any subject on ZENITH aircraft , > wether it is to do with building or mods to your pet > zenith. >... My thoughts ,and I might add the ZAC factory > are always happy to answer any questions you may Yes it's very true but I don't think this is being questioned at all. I think that it's very fair that we discuss the value of our aircrafts vs other aircrafts. Zodiacs when compared with any other models have benefits and drawbacks.... after all, nothing is perfect. For example, the fact that I won't recuperate my investment should I sell the plane is quite disturbing to me. Is showing that Zenair got some competion a bad thing? I'm not sure as this demonstrates that nothing is perfect and it welcomes improvements and re-design. It should also motivate ZAC and Zenair to make better manuals and more accurate plans. Michel do not archive ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:43 AM PST US From: Gig Subject: Zenith-List: Re: New Completions - Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig I have too noticed that I don't see many completion photos of Zeniths in any of the mags. I have meant to say something because since September when I started both building and reading this list I know I've counted at least 5 or six completions. Come on guys. When you finish send the photos to the magazines. I know I'll be sending one in days after completion. (When that day finaly comes.) It's good for Zenith which means it's good for us. W.R. "Gig" Giacona Zenith 601XL http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR PP-SEL RH ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:11 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Completions - Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Brad: I have posted a photo of the chuckbird completion on my website at: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/OTHERSTUFF/Chuckbird.jpg I'm all for talking about other aircraft projects. This just reinforces my decision to build a Zenith aircraft. I did lots of research before starting my 601XL and the more I read, the more I'm happy with my decision. I review RV builders sites and other aircraft builder sites often to get ideas and tips on building parts. Being a plans builder, this type of research is a really helpful. Of course if you were not a builder (like someone who posted a reply to this message yesterday), but just a flyer then you wouldn't be interested in most of the building discussions we have on this site anyway. May all of your rivet lines be straight. Enjoy, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Brad Johnston" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Completions - Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brad Johnston" Hey cool! Which issue had the Chuckbird in it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Zenith-List: New Completions - Kit Planes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" > > Fellow Zenith Listers: > > I have a subscription to "KitPlanes" magazine. Every month I get my new > copy and skim through once quickly and find myself near the end usually > around page 71. This is where KitPlanes shows photographs and a paragraph > or two of Completions. I see Vans RV-9s, KR2s, RV-6s, RVs, and more > RVs and even a Texas Chuckbird for goodness sake. Why dont we see any > completed Zenith aircraft in this magazine? OK, Im only 6 months new to > this, so maybe there were some before my time, but it is time for some new > completions to be published. > > I know some of you are nearing completion and several of you have just > finished and are flying. Send your photos to KitPlanes and get our name out > there! Maybe some of you already have and I patiently wait each month to > see a Zenith aircraft on Page 71 or 72 of Kitplanes Magazine! > > Scott Laughlin > www.cooknwithgas.com > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Rv's vs 601's, comparison to automobiles From: charles.long@gm.com 07/17/2003 10:41:35 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com . . . My opinion, comparing the two is similar to comparing a Volkswagen to a Ford Mustang. I would like to take exception to this statement. In my opinion, both aircraft are sports cars in a sense. From a climb and handling standpoint, they're both superb, a hoot to fly; far better than most certified aircraft (I've flown both designs as well as many other certificed aircraft). Remember, the HP - Weight ratio on a lightly built / 100 hp 601 is not that much less than a corvette. A Volkswagen doesn't even come close performance wise. Not trying to minimize RV's other strong points. From a top speed standpoint, the RV leaves the 601 in the dust and it's also aerobatic. All depends what kind of flying you do. If you like to drive the winding roads with the top down, a top end of a 130 mph takes nothing away from the experience. Handling is what counts. If you honestly do a lot of cross crounty (most of us hate to admit we don't), the extra 50 kts is nice to have. But there again, if I'm trying to go somewhere and I'm in a hurry, I like to file IFR. In talking to the RV guys, they don't feel their airplanes are all that good an IFR platform (like the 601, too light on the controls). My pick for a useful CC plane would be a Mooney 201 or Cessna 210, even though they both drive more like trucks than sportscars! Hope I haven't touched any nerves out there, just trying to provide another perspective on why we fly airplanes. Chuck Long, CFI ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:33 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" I think part of what you are seeing is the natural variation in how long it takes to build planes in general, i.e there are a number of folks who have spent 4 years building a zodie. I have a friend who had his RV8 kit done minus engine in 6 months... RV's probably take longer overall because of the solid rivets...and there is probably more rivets, I.e the RV is usually aerobatic and is therefore a stronger airframe. I have a friend with an RV 7...said it took 1200 hours...my HDS took 950 Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: randall true [mailto:randtrue@yahoo.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: randall true Frank, you bring up a question for me and my lack of airport hangout exposure. If the predrilled holes are so helpfull on an RV, why does it take a year or two to build a zenith, and 4 to 8 years for an RV? Those seem to me to be typical numbers under the completion pictures in my years of back issues of Kitplane. Randall --- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK > (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > I too have seen several RV's built. The quality of > the kits is almost beyond > belief, especially the quickbuilds. You don't even > need a flat table, all > the holes are predrilled and line up perfectly. The > only holes that do NOT > line up on my plane are the ones ZAC drilled! > > There are now a number of automotive conversions > available for RV's too, > although they tend to be unpopular, probably does > not help the resale value. > > Lets face it even the slowest RV9 with a 118HP > engine is about 50mph faster > than any zodiac (at least excluding the XL). > > I have a friend who has built 3 RV's. Makes money on > every one (excluding > his labour). > > However, if your happy at cruising at 105 to 110mph > on 4.8 GPH, the amount > of gear you can get in a ZAC far outstrips any of > the RV's. This is very > important to me. > > Now if I could sell it for what I put into it I > might build another plane. > > FWIW > > Frank > > Do not archive > > > Mr. Laughlin: > > I, too, have made the same observation regarding > what appears to be the > greater popularity of the RV airplane over that of > the Zenith line. It would > appear to the outside observer that the RV line has > something going for it > that Zenith doesn't and I wish I knew what that > "something" was. It > certainly isn't cost and I say this because it is my understanding > that building an RV is more expensive, overall, than > building a Zenith. I don't > think it is ease of construction for I have been > told, by those who should > know, that building an RV is more difficult. All > this makes me wonder if the > RV's popularity has to do with a belief that it is a > better engineered > airplane, with greater quality, when it comes to the > parts and materials > that make up the airplane? Or could it be that the > RV line simply has more > models available for sale than that of Zenith? All > this is pure speculation > on my part. However, it is very apparent that the RV > is more popular as a > kitplane given the numbers ou! t there and the > "cottage industries" that > have come into existence that provide after-market > accessories for RV > aircraft. In any case, it is to be sure that there > must be some solid > reasons for its popularity. I wish I knew what they > are. > > D.J. Dormer > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > Share: Share photos & files with other List > members. > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" >> the fact that I won't recuperate my investment should I sell the plane is quite disturbing to me. I've always gotten a kick out of the thinking that Aircraft are investments. No one assumes a car is an investment. It is true the some folks make money on their planes, but no one is really making money once you put time, tools, etc. into the equation. The fact that there is a substainal resale value for a homebuilt aircraft is actually pretty amazing. I also think the reasons the RVs tend to sell for more than the base cost is because there isn't any current inexpensive ceritifed birds that have similar performance and cost numbers. So a non-builder can pick up a RV aircraft that is much faster than most of the SPAM cans out there for the same or a lot less than a typical SPAM can. With the Zodiac being relatively slow and using engines that are typically less popular it's harder for the buyer to justify not just buying a used C152 or whatever with similar performance figures and getting a certificated engine as well. Don Honabach ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes From: "Don Honabach" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Frank, >> I think part of what you are seeing is the natural variation in how long it takes to build planes in general, i.e there are a number of folks who have spent 4 years building a zodie. I'm going on year 6 and still have at least another 6 to 12 months to go. Sometimes life just gets in the way :) Don ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:07 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Good point Don, In fact considering that a good used 152 can be had for less than $20k, Vs $30+ for the 601 and it gets real hard. Mind you, with 100Hp the 152/172 owners think we have rocket ships when they watch us take off! Can hardly wait for my 135hp Soob conversion...:) Frank 601HDS 300hours soob Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Don Honabach [mailto:don@pcperfect.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" >> the fact that I won't recuperate my investment should I sell the plane is quite disturbing to me. I've always gotten a kick out of the thinking that Aircraft are investments. No one assumes a car is an investment. It is true the some folks make money on their planes, but no one is really making money once you put time, tools, etc. into the equation. The fact that there is a substainal resale value for a homebuilt aircraft is actually pretty amazing. I also think the reasons the RVs tend to sell for more than the base cost is because there isn't any current inexpensive ceritifed birds that have similar performance and cost numbers. So a non-builder can pick up a RV aircraft that is much faster than most of the SPAM cans out there for the same or a lot less than a typical SPAM can. With the Zodiac being relatively slow and using engines that are typically less popular it's harder for the buyer to justify not just buying a used C152 or whatever with similar performance figures and getting a certificated engine as well. Don Honabach advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:57 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: HDS spring gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker List, Have any HD or HDS builders looked into using an XL type aluminum spring gear? I am not a big proponent of modifying from original designs, but it seems like a considerably cleaner and easier installation. Any idea about the weight difference between the two? Ground handling characteristics? Mounting location and airframe modifications? I have read about some of the difficulties of the "bungee box" installation on some of your websites, and wondered how difficult it would be. -Just thinking aloud. Brandon Tucker --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:10 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: HDS spring gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker List, Have any HD or HDS builders looked into using an XL type aluminum spring gear? I am not a big proponent of modifying from original designs, but it seems like a considerably cleaner and easier installation. Any idea about the weight difference between the two? Ground handling characteristics? Mounting location and airframe modifications? I have read about some of the difficulties of the "bungee box" installation on some of your websites, and wondered how difficult it would be. -Just thinking aloud. Brandon Tucker --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:12 PM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" >In fact considering that a good used 152 can be had for less than $20k, Vs >$30+ for the 601 and it gets real hard. >Mind you, with 100Hp the 152/172 owners think we have rocket ships when they >watch us take off! You can't even compare a CH601HDS or a CH601XL to a clunky old Cessna. Faster climb, cruise, better payload, and half the fuel load, not to mention more comfort. That's why I'm selling shares in the CH601XL, Alarus CH2000, and CH640 at my flight school, but not in a Cessna. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:35 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Faster cruise?...Are you sure about that? Its been a while since I flew a 152 but I thought it did a little better than the 110mph of the HDS (well of MY HDS anyway). Even if it is faster, the point is its is similar (on paper at least) at less money and the 152 does not APPEAR to lose value as fast. At 2/3rds the price (and zero building time) it makes the 601 a tough financial choice to many folks. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Philip Polstra [mailto:ppolstra@mindspring.com] Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" --> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" >In fact considering that a good used 152 can be had for less than $20k, >Vs $30+ for the 601 and it gets real hard. Mind you, with 100Hp the >152/172 owners think we have rocket ships when they >watch us take off! You can't even compare a CH601HDS or a CH601XL to a clunky old Cessna. Faster climb, cruise, better payload, and half the fuel load, not to mention more comfort. That's why I'm selling shares in the CH601XL, Alarus CH2000, and CH640 at my flight school, but not in a Cessna. advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:40 PM PST US From: "Philip Polstra" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" >Faster cruise?...Are you sure about that? >Its been a while since I flew a 152 but I thought it did a little better >than the 110mph of the HDS (well of MY HDS anyway). I've got hundreds of hours in 152's. They normally only cruise at 90 kts, or 105 mph. So even if your HDS is a bit slower than mine was (120-130 mph) it will still beat the 152. >Even if it is faster, the point is its is similar (on paper at least) at >less money and the 152 does not APPEAR to lose value as fast. That's only because all 152's are old and have already depreciated away most of their value. A later model 152 can run you over $30k, and it is still 20 years old. >At 2/3rds the price (and zero building time) it makes the 601 a tough >financial choice to many folks. It depends on how old you go on the 152. In order to get something below $20k, you are most likely looking at a 150, or a 152 with nasty radios and/or high time engine. I would never recommend anyone to build an airplane soley to save money. You can't buy a new 152, but you can buy a new factory built CH601XL if you don't have the time or desire to build. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:59 PM PST US From: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Zodie Rocket" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Cowling looks great Michel Kinda the Rollie - Pollie - Ollie - Zodie I Love it. Mark Townsend 601XL EA-82 MPFI Turbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien Subject: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien do not archive A few things. I successfully made the openings on my cowling this week. The process is shown on my updated web site for those of you who are interested. Thanks to all that provided ideas for this! I also installed the labels for the switches and placards on my inst. panel. I used the technique described on the RV Journal and I'm very satisfied with the result. This is shown on my instruments panel finishing page. About the cowling and canopy... I'm finishing the cowling (put micro balloon on it today) and the canopy... ordered additional weatherstrip from ZAC after a mistake I've made practicing the glueing techniques... I don't know when I'll update the web site with the associated details. Thanks again to all who helped me on these things! Michel ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:14 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fw: New Completions - Kit Planes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" > > Frank, > > >> I think part of what you are seeing is the natural variation in how > long it takes to build planes in general, i.e there are a number of > folks who have spent 4 years building a zodie. > > I'm going on year 6 and still have at least another 6 to 12 months to > go. Sometimes life just gets in the way :) > > Don > Frank and Don, Life should get in the way, just as moving too fast on a project just takes the joy out of it. The 601 is an ideal aircraft construction for either kit or scratch builder. I know of some RV builders having to make more than one to be able to keep the last one without a mortgage. That philosophy plays into a rush to get there and they soon tire of the intense effort. I'm going into 4th year of 601 construction and still look forward to each process and progress. Larry McFarland ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:20 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: The movement of radiator and coolant --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" List, We've discussed aspects of the radiators being placed back where perhaps they should be, but has anyone slowed down the coolant to get a reading on the engine temps after actually doing it? The thermostat has some part to play in this, but is there any data that suggests slower coolant is more effective at the Cyl Head Temps? Larry McFarland - Stratus Subaru - 601 hds ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS spring gear From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > Have any HD or HDS builders looked into using an XL type > aluminum spring gear? > Any idea about the weight difference between the two? The only thing I can speak to is the weight issue, being that I'm building an XL. And I'll tell you - I was surprised at how much that spring gear weighs! It's a monster. I suppose it has to be in order to be structurally sound -- but lifting that thing in place -- it almost seems to weight as much as the empty fuselage itself. I could be wrong -- but it's heavy! Mike Fortunato 601XL The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit Planes From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > $30+ for the 601 Sorry -- couldn't let that slip by! You sure about that? Mike Fortunato 601XL (hoping it'll be worth that much, even though it's not for sale) do not archive The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:33 PM PST US From: hans blohm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Importing a Kit to Australia, cost,tax,gst,customs. --> Zenith-List message posted by: hans blohm I imported a 601XL complete kit to Sydney 18 months ago. I used a transport company I found in Airsport (CH Freight). You wont have to pay import duty or bother with quarantine, but there are plenty of other expenses. After several months waiting for ZAC to complete the kit the shipment took 3 weeks to Sydney. Then another 7 days through customs before they would let me have it. You will probably pay several thousand for transport and insurance. When it gets here the government will want 10% of whatever you paid for the kit for GST. You can't get aroud this as customs won't clear it until you do. Then you will have to hire a truck to transport the crate from customs to you. If you buy the complete kit, it will arrive in a very large crate (8' x 4' x 4') weighing about 900lbs. You will need a large truck and possibly a crane to unload it at your place. In Sydney these trucks are hard to hire, they don't like picking up from customs because they have to wait around all day, and they are expensive. In my case the truck wouldn't fit down the driveway so I had the driver leave the crate on the footpath. It took several hours to unpack and carry everything into the workshop. It's an expensive exercise, but once it arrives you soon forget about the money. Halfway there. -- Hans Blohm Control Electronics 79 Alan Road Berowra Heights NSW 2082 Phone: 02 9456 0736 Email: hansblohm@controlelectronics.com.au On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:53 am, abc abc wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: abc abc > > Has anyone had experience importing a kit to Australia?. > I am thinking about the handling charges ,customs,import duty, sales tax, > storage, quarantine, gst, shipping time. Did you have a broker?, Cost? and > Problems?. > Any sites that may be useful?. > Many thanks > Tony > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:30 PM PST US From: "Frank Jones" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" FYI, I used Visio to do my panel labels with these stickers and was very happy. Visio give you a CAD like capability to layout the lables so one sticker can have many labels. This is particularly good when you have a bank of switches close together. You can see what I mean in this picture of my panel: http://www.iprules.com/plane/insideview.jpg ______________________ Frank Jones C-GYXQ ______________________ -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I used Excel, but I did not use mailing labels. The 05665 sheet are full sheet stickers. --- Gary Liming wrote: > > Hi Michel, > > What software did you use to make the labels? I've > tried Word, since it > knows the label numbers, but I can't seem to > position the lettering like > I'd like to. > > Gary > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:25 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HDS spring gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Yes they are, I was at arlington this last W/E and picked up a Cessna spring gear...Almost got a hernia. Now this company was offering titanium gears which are about 2/3rds the weight. Still heavy though. I'm doubtful the spring gear saves weight over the old bungee cord design. I think they are used more for simplicity and reduced factory labour time. I can also tell you the old style works very well. I landed on a runway consisting of ploughruts and BIG rocks. At almost gross weight the little ZAC just skipped right over them. I have noticed some wear on the gearbox lowers though, probably just my nylon spacer worn out. Frank -----Original Message----- From: wizard-24@juno.com [mailto:wizard-24@juno.com] Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS spring gear --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > Have any HD or HDS builders looked into using an XL type > aluminum spring gear? > Any idea about the weight difference between the two? The only thing I can speak to is the weight issue, being that I'm building an XL. And I'll tell you - I was surprised at how much that spring gear weighs! It's a monster. I suppose it has to be in order to be structurally sound -- but lifting that thing in place -- it almost seems to weight as much as the empty fuselage itself. I could be wrong -- but it's heavy! Mike Fortunato 601XL The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! advertising on the Matronics Forums. Share: Share photos & files with other List members. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:30 PM PST US From: "No 6" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "No 6" The RV bunch are jealous of the Zodiac which is a better plane in many ways and a fraction the cost. Keep them OUT! ----Original Message Follows---- From: Norman Turner Subject: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Norman Turner Hi all on the list, Hey girls and guys lets keep the ZENITH LIST for all of us who are flying or building ZENITH aircraft . If the RV's builders or / and flyers wish to comment on RV's then do it on your web site not on the ZENITH site. It is in my personal opinion that this site is for the builders and flyers of ZENITHS benefit that we all communicate on this site to better our knowledge and ensure that others who follow in our footsteps learn by our experiences and not try to re-invent the wheel, Just my opinion! I personally have met many new friends from this site and have learned so much the my little brain is working overtime continually. At the first chance I get, this bucket of electrons is turned on so I can read the latest news on zenith tips and how to doo's and not to doo's . All I can say is I'm a ZODIAC 601 HDS flyer (not builder) and I am very proud of it,I have also been the test person for a kit built 701 built in W.A. Australia then flew it across the dese! st to Ali to the owner, it is a job I do with pride and faith in Zenith aircraft. This site is just great for information on any subject on ZENITH aircraft , wether it is to do with building or mods to your pet zenith. My thoughts ,and I might add the ZAC factory are always happy to answer any questions you may have no matter how silly you may think they are ( boy!!! have I asked some stupid questions in the past) and received very constructive answers( with no malice), Cheers to all from a very happy zodiac 601 hds rotax 912/ 232hrs flyer @ 16 lph fuel consumption and 90kts thanks ZAC. Norm Turner CFI Top End Ultralight Club Northern Territory Australia. Do not archive. Surf the net and talk on the phone with Xtra Jetstream @ http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html ! ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:43 PM PST US From: CLOJAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: CLOJAN@aol.com Cowling looks great Michel Kinda the Rollie - Pollie - Ollie - Zodie I Love it. Ever see the cartoon "JJ the jet plane". Paint a couple of eyebrows on it and you will have one of the characters. My wife loved it! Jack Russell Clovis CA ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:29 PM PST US From: Ramperf@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Kit Planes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ramperf@aol.com Frank I take it your guides didn't fall out? Ron ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:29 PM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling wing skins - 601 XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Fellow listers, I'm to the point of drilling my wing skins.... finally! I have clamped the top rear skin flush with the rear channel. I have drilled and clecoed the pilot holes through the rear channel. The manual says to work from rear to front. Question: Do I A. Work span wise e.g. drill RR1 - hole 1; RR2 - hole 1; RR3 - hole 1; etc or B: Drill all of RR1 then RR2, RR3, RR4, etc. In the manual, 6-W-8 pg 7 (Revision 3 - 1/22/03) they tell you to work span wise on the bottom rear skin. Just wondering if I should do the same with the top rear skin. Thanks for any advice. Mark Stauffer 601 XL N996XL (Reserved) Tail completed, aileron and flaps completed. Working on the hard wing!! ;-) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:00 PM PST US From: Rick Pitcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Some updates... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher I'm right behind you on the panel Michel. Should be printing my decals in the next week or two. Thanks for the tip : ) http://www.lightflyers.com/wires.jpg Rick P. Michel Therrien wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien > > I used Excel, but I did not use mailing labels. The > 05665 sheet are full sheet stickers. > > --- Gary Liming wrote: > >>Hi Michel, >> >>What software did you use to make the labels? I've >>tried Word, since it >>knows the label numbers, but I can't seem to >>position the lettering like >>I'd like to. >> >>Gary >> >> > > > ===== > ---------------------------- > Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ > http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 > http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby > http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:14 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: RV popularity... From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" .. > Lets face it even the slowest RV9 with a 118HP engine is about 50mph faster > than any zodiac (at least excluding the XL). I suspect the speed is a big factor that makes people lean towards the RV. I also suspect that many recreational pilots buy more airplane than they can comfortably handle. A friend and professional pilot at the local airport keeps his hand into instructing and checking out people on various aircraft, and last summer he checked out two guys who'd finished their RVs. One took a few hours but eventually was considered safe to let loose (he had been flying a C-170 tailwheeler while building so was still pretty current). The other fellow hadn't been flying, was getting on in years (hey - I have gray hair too and I'm discovering how the carbon-based computer between my ears slows down when least desired! ;-). After several hours of checking, my colleague still didn't consider him competent to send solo. Any lapse of attention during a circuit would see the aircraft rapidly loosing altitude and building speed in the beginnings of a spiral -- it's a very clean aircraft aerodynamically! I haven't heard the latested update on this one yet... My point is simply this - most recreational pilots only fly a few hours a year - life is busy - we never get as much flying time as we dream we're going to. AND WE AIN'T GETTIN' ANY YOUNGER! I know way too many who scare themselves (and bystanders !) when the take their annual flight on aircraft that are just too much for them. The beauty of the 601 and 701, is that by keeping it simple, there is still a wonderful tradeoff of performace (speed or STOL) versus ease of handling. I suspect that the average Zenair builder will get a lot more fun and fewer frights from his finished aircraft. Just my suspicion! NOTE: this is IN NO WAY MEANT TO SLAM all the highly-qualified, professionally-oriented recreational pilots on this list!!! ;-). -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:54 PM PST US From: "Dave Alberti" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Drilling wing skins - 601 XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" I worked from the center out to minimize the oil caning or puckering. Dave Airworthiness Certification issued on 7/14/03. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer Subject: Zenith-List: Drilling wing skins - 601 XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" Fellow listers, I'm to the point of drilling my wing skins.... finally! I have clamped the top rear skin flush with the rear channel. I have drilled and clecoed the pilot holes through the rear channel. The manual says to work from rear to front. Question: Do I A. Work span wise e.g. drill RR1 - hole 1; RR2 - hole 1; RR3 - hole 1; etc or B: Drill all of RR1 then RR2, RR3, RR4, etc. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:40 PM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RV popularity... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Grant, I think some self-examination is useful in any major life "commitment" whether it's career, house or the aircraft you're going to spend several years building. Too much aviation is dream driven. Dreams are great unless reality turns them into nightmares. Unfortunately, most of us don't confront our own realities enough because it can be a bit of a disappointment. But it's still essential nonetheless. A lot of the RV crowd see themselves doing long trips all the time with an aviation mad spouse or SO in the right seat while they spend their well financed retirement flitting from one exotic location to the next. Quite often the build time stretches to eternity, the spouse never catches the flying fever needed for the right hand seat, money gets tight as other demands beckon. Even when it's built, it's hard to find the time for long trips. Money issues make pressing the starter button a painful experience and a quick calculation of the opportunity cost of having THAT much capital tied up in an RV that only YOU fly on the occasional weekend makes you blanche. Its worse if the plane you sacrificed so much for turns out to be one that you can't fly or just never fly because it doesn't fit in with the rest of your life either timewise or moneywise or both. Of course, if you have money by the truckload, then none of this matters a toss. But if you don't, then it's a genuine tragedy. So, yes I agree that people can buy "too much airplane", but this is just one aspect of poor self examination. At the end of the day, flying a plane that's 50% of your dream is a helluva lot better than having nothing but 100% of the same old dream or even worse, a dream that turned into a nightmare all by itself. Best Perry Morrison Grant Corriveau wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" .. > Lets face it even the slowest RV9 with a 118HP engine is about 50mph faster > than any zodiac (at least excluding the XL). I suspect the speed is a big factor that makes people lean towards the RV. I also suspect that many recreational pilots buy more airplane than they can comfortably handle. A friend and professional pilot at the local airport keeps his hand into instructing and checking out people on various aircraft, and last summer he checked out two guys who'd finished their RVs. One took a few hours but eventually was considered safe to let loose (he had been flying a C-170 tailwheeler while building so was still pretty current). The other fellow hadn't been flying, was getting on in years (hey - I have gray hair too and I'm discovering how the carbon-based computer between my ears slows down when least desired! ;-). After several hours of checking, my colleague still didn't consider him competent to send solo. Any lapse of attention during a circuit would see the aircraft rapidly loosing altitude and building speed in the beginnings of a spiral -- it's a very clean aircraft aerodynamically! I haven't heard the latested update on this one yet... My point is simply this - most recreational pilots only fly a few hours a year - life is busy - we never get as much flying time as we dream we're going to. AND WE AIN'T GETTIN' ANY YOUNGER! I know way too many who scare themselves (and bystanders !) when the take their annual flight on aircraft that are just too much for them. The beauty of the 601 and 701, is that by keeping it simple, there is still a wonderful tradeoff of performace (speed or STOL) versus ease of handling. I suspect that the average Zenair builder will get a lot more fun and fewer frights from his finished aircraft. Just my suspicion! NOTE: this is IN NO WAY MEANT TO SLAM all the highly-qualified, professionally-oriented recreational pilots on this list!!! ;-). -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd +61 08 89 88 4617 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________ ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:29 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re:New Completions - Kit Planes From: Brenton Battles --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brenton Battles You don't have to be a Kitplanes subscriber to have your airplane appear in the completions pages. I had mine published in late 2000 as I recall and all they wanted was a brief text entry and either 2 or 3 different non-returnable photographs among which they would select the one for publication. My motivation for submitting - beyond Nicholas's suggestion to do so - was based largely on getting the word out about Zodiacs and spreading my enthusiasm. Regards, Brent Battles N16BZ 601HD Rotax 912 By the way, I have a new website with a domain name supplied by my daughter: http://www.flappingpappy.com/zodiac/hangar.html