Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:34 AM - Re: Zodiac xl (Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM)
2. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac xl (Larry McFarland)
3. 06:13 AM - Roll-Bar (Bob Miller)
4. 07:10 AM - Re: Roll-Bar (Philip Polstra)
5. 10:01 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac xl (_ SL _)
6. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Zodiac xl (B K Johnson)
7. 12:59 PM - Re: Roll-Bar (Bryan Martin)
8. 02:15 PM - Re: Full lotus for 701? (jnbolding1)
9. 02:23 PM - revits (ronnie wehba)
10. 02:47 PM - Re: rivets (Bryan Martin)
11. 03:39 PM - Re: rivets (ronnie wehba)
12. 04:04 PM - Re: Roll-Bar (Ron DeWees)
13. 06:06 PM - Re: revits (Jarek M. Walter)
14. 06:09 PM - Re: Full lotus for 701? (Ken Szewc)
15. 06:30 PM - Re: Roll-Bar (Philip Polstra)
16. 07:03 PM - Re: Roll-Bar (Bob Miller)
17. 07:03 PM - Re: Roll-Bar & Stumps (Bob Miller)
18. 07:10 PM - Re: Roll-Bar & Stumps (Philip Polstra)
19. 09:01 PM - Re: Roll-Bar (Gary Gower)
20. 11:41 PM - Re: Roll-Bar (Thomas F Marson)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns@pol.net>
I am considering a Zodiac XL to be built in a basement. Does anyone
have measurements on the completed components, so I can see if they can
go up the stairs and out the door? Thanks.
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> I am considering a Zodiac XL to be built in a basement. Does anyone
> have measurements on the completed components, so I can see if they can
> go up the stairs and out the door? Thanks.
Joe,
I believe your worst problem will be the fuselage which is going to be
approx
44" wide not counting the entry steps each side, 34" tall and a hair over
14' long.
The wings, with a root length of 48" and if you have open stairs without
sidewalls at the bottom, would likely
make the joggle with a few extra hands if you're careful.
Good luck,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS @ www.macsmachine.com
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Nick Heintz has given me permission to publish to the list
my following questions about roll-bars along with his responses.
> [For a 601HD] It seems to me that the most likely nose-over situation would occur
> at a fairly slow speed after an emergency landing in a field with
> hidden rocks or holes. In such a case, perhaps a roll-bar might
> provide head protection. Would it be ok to make a roll-bar such
> that the sides extended down into the fuselage just behind the
> seatbacks, attaching to the upper and lower longerons? If so,
> should the rollbar attach directly to the longerons, or should some
> sort of rubber cushion be incorporated to allow some flexing of the
> airframe? If these cushions are needed, how much flexing should be
> allowed?
Difficult to say, especially with the forward opening canopy:
replacing the aft tube frame with a more substantial structure will
create a change in the geometery of how the canopy is hinged (there
is not a common hinge point for the left and right canopy side frame,
the left and right pivot points are squre to the longer instead of
square to the aircraft center line)
> Alternatively, do you think such a roll-over would be unlikely?
By design the rudder will be quite effective to
dampen some of the impact. Also, this raises some concern reference
shoulder harness which will keep the pilot in an upright position in
the event of roll-over.
Nick Heintz
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
I can't speak about constructing a rollbar. I can say that when I had to
land my 601 in a clearcut area with all the stumps, it didn't roll over even
when I was going down a sharp incline and hitting several stumps.
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "_ SL _" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Joseph:
I have been working on a Zodiac XL for one year now. Everything I have
built could have been built in a non-walkout basement except assembly of the
wings. I'm plans-building, so I spend a lot of time making parts and the
warm basement is perfect in the winter. If you don't have a walk-out
basement, it would be a challenge to get a 12' long wing up the stairs and
through the house, but by the time you get to wing assembly, you may have
another place to assemble the large parts. I built my entire tail section in
the basement.
ZAC's website has an excellent drawing of the airplane components with
dimensions at:
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/performance-sp.html
Good luck,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine.
http://wine.msn.com
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: B K Johnson <wa7dvd@comcast.net>
I have been building a 601 XL in my basement for about a year now. The empenage
and
wing control surfaces are small enough to get out of most any room. To get the
wings
out you must have enough room to move a 4 x 12 item without bending it. I have
stairs
to go up and down, but it is a straight shot to the back yard and the wings will
go
out with about 6" to spare at the top and bottom. Nick suggested building the
fuselage using many clecos and then moving it outside to do the riveting.
Bruce Johnson
N601BK (reserved)
"Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joseph Kearns, DO,MPH,FACOEM" <Kearns@pol.net>
>
> I am considering a Zodiac XL to be built in a basement.
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
A recently completed 601 XL in my area suffered just such an accident. An
oil cooler line came loose in flight and the Jabiru engine seized before the
pilot could make it back to the airport. He make an forced landing in a
field and got it almost stopped when the nose wheel dropped into a hole and
the plane flipped over. The pilot walked away with only minor injuries.
A roll bar for the 601 probably wouldn't have to be very substantial to be
effective in this sort of accident. You might want to carry a hatchet on
board to hack your way out though.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Nearly done.
do not archive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Full lotus for 701? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Tebenkof@aol.com
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
>
>Any 701 float flyers out there who have mounted (or considered) Full Lotus
>floats as an aternative to the Czech Aluminum? I would like to build my 701 as
>a taildragger, convertible to amphibs. The full lotus seem to be available
>with an amphibious float version not requiring the Zenith nosewheel for
>steering. Any ideas about strengths, weaknesses, mounting issues, or whether
this is
>just a plane crazy idea?
>
>Jim Greenough
>701 20%/Tualatin OR
Jim All I've ever flown in 40 yrs of flying off the beach, dirt roads , cow pastures
and friends back yards have been taildraggers. 170, 180, Pacer, Seabee,
RV3,glasair,Legal Eagle and a Champ. HOWEVER When I saw Grant Rappe demo
Skyshops 701 at Oshkosh last year I forgot about all my reservations about building
a nosedragger. I'm scratch building the plane as well as the Zenith 1150
amphibs (in the middle of those now). I MIGHT put in the fittings to make it
a taildragger if it ever comes off the floats but after I watched Grant taxi
around with the nose wheel in the air it's doubtful. Stay in touch LOW&SLOW
John Bolding Baytown Tx
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
been looking for a good buy on the blind revits,avdel avex, is this a brand name
or type?, found avdel but what is AVEX? and the a4 and a5 on the 701 mat.list
is that there way of sizing?, thanks guys
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 1/4/04 5:17 PM, ronnie wehba at rwehba@wtxs.net wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
> been looking for a good buy on the blind revits,avdel avex, is this a brand
> name or type?, found avdel but what is AVEX? and the a4 and a5 on the 701
> mat.list is that there way of sizing?, thanks guys
Avdel is the manufacturer, a division of Textron. Avex is the brand name. A4
rivets are 1/8 inch diameter (3.2 mm) (A4 = 4/32) and A5 are 5/32 inch
diameter (4 mm). There are also A6 rivets which are 3/16 inch.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Nearly done.
do not archive.
Message 11
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required 5, BAYES_00)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
thanks byran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> on 1/4/04 5:17 PM, ronnie wehba at rwehba@wtxs.net wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
> >
> > been looking for a good buy on the blind revits,avdel avex, is this a
brand
> > name or type?, found avdel but what is AVEX? and the a4 and a5 on the
701
> > mat.list is that there way of sizing?, thanks guys
>
> Avdel is the manufacturer, a division of Textron. Avex is the brand name.
A4
> rivets are 1/8 inch diameter (3.2 mm) (A4 = 4/32) and A5 are 5/32 inch
> diameter (4 mm). There are also A6 rivets which are 3/16 inch.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Airframe construction complete.
> Panel and engine installed.
> Nearly done.
> do not archive.
>
>
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the first hand report on the unplanned landing. Could you
comment on the shoulder and lap belt attachments and any changes you would
suggest? THe shoulder attachment looks weak to me.
Thanks
Ron DeWees
Zenair 601 HDS/TD and Jan 3300 in progress
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Roll-Bar
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra"
<ppolstra@mindspring.com>
>
> I can't speak about constructing a rollbar. I can say that when I had to
> land my 601 in a clearcut area with all the stumps, it didn't roll over
even
> when I was going down a sharp incline and hitting several stumps.
>
>
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jarek M. Walter" <jarek.walter@sympatico.ca>
Check the www.rivetsplus.com. They seem to have a good price if you are
buying more than 600.
Jarek
CH701, forming parts
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: revits
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
> been looking for a good buy on the blind revits,avdel avex, is this a
brand name or type?, found avdel but what is AVEX? and the a4 and a5 on the
701 mat.list is that there way of sizing?, thanks guys
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Full lotus for 701? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Szewc <szewc@direcway.com>
Hi John,
I am almost finished with my 701 and am interested in scratch building the
amphib floats. Where do you get the plans for the amphib floats? All I see
on ZACs website is a redirect to Czech aircraft.
Thanks
Ken Szewc
701, 912S almost done.
PS Jim, I will be flying out of Merlin Oregon
----- Original Message -----
From: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Full lotus for 701?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" <jnbolding1@mail.ev1.net>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: Tebenkof@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:44:56 EST
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
> >
> >Any 701 float flyers out there who have mounted (or considered) Full
Lotus
> >floats as an aternative to the Czech Aluminum? I would like to build my
701 as
> >a taildragger, convertible to amphibs. The full lotus seem to be
available
> >with an amphibious float version not requiring the Zenith nosewheel for
> >steering. Any ideas about strengths, weaknesses, mounting issues, or
whether this is
> >just a plane crazy idea?
> >
> >Jim Greenough
> >701 20%/Tualatin OR
>
> Jim All I've ever flown in 40 yrs of flying off the beach, dirt roads ,
cow pastures and friends back yards have been taildraggers. 170, 180,
Pacer, Seabee, RV3,glasair,Legal Eagle and a Champ. HOWEVER When I saw
Grant Rappe demo Skyshops 701 at Oshkosh last year I forgot about all my
reservations about building a nosedragger. I'm scratch building the plane
as well as the Zenith 1150 amphibs (in the middle of those now). I MIGHT put
in the fittings to make it a taildragger if it ever comes off the floats but
after I watched Grant taxi around with the nose wheel in the air it's
doubtful. Stay in touch LOW&SLOW John Bolding Baytown Tx
>
>
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
The shoulder attach point actually held in my crash. The outside lapbelt
attach point failed. The metal was literally torn. The bolt didn't tear
through the hole, and the part didn't fail at a rivet hole either. I was
told that the attach point is designed for 14g's. I could have exceeded
that with a solid hit of a big stump on the left main at say 50 mph.
The only thing I could recommend different would be a thicker piece of
metal. Even when the attach point failed, I didn't go too far. The
inclined seating position helped out. I did put my left knee through my
tach, and bruised my right knee on the panel as well. I can't say for
certain if a stronger attach point is desirable. At some level you are
going to hurt yourself more on the belt than if it eventually gave.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Thanks for the first hand report on the unplanned landing. Could you
comment on the shoulder and lap belt attachments and any changes you would
suggest? THe shoulder attachment looks weak to me.
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Well, from a cost/benefit perspective, that's the most persuasive argument
so far. I think I'll forego the rollbar.
Here's hoping you're ok. Thanks for the post.
BobMiller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Roll-Bar
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra"
<ppolstra@mindspring.com>
>
> I can't speak about constructing a rollbar. I can say that when I had to
> land my 601 in a clearcut area with all the stumps, it didn't roll over
even
> when I was going down a sharp incline and hitting several stumps.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Roll-Bar & Stumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Incidentally, Philip, was yours a tail-dragger or trike, and do you think
that made a difference?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Roll-Bar
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra"
<ppolstra@mindspring.com>
>
> I can't speak about constructing a rollbar. I can say that when I had to
> land my 601 in a clearcut area with all the stumps, it didn't roll over
even
> when I was going down a sharp incline and hitting several stumps.
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Roll-Bar & Stumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Polstra" <ppolstra@mindspring.com>
It was a trike. I think that having a taildragger would have helped to keep
me in the seat better, but would also make a roll-over more likely when I
hit a stump with the main. The nosegear was completely bent back up into
the bottom of the fuselage.
I have pictures of the nosegear, and also the failed attach point I can
e-mail to anyone interested.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
<drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Incidentally, Philip, was yours a tail-dragger or trike, and do you think
that made a difference?
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
I think that the most important thing is how "we fly" the airplane down
in the emergency... If a good emergency landing ends in bumpy land, a
roll over is slow with low (if any) harm to both aircraft or pilot.
If fast, hard and (we could say) out of pilots control, the G's from
the crash landing in the pilot body will kill him or cause severe harm,
rol bar or not... There are two subjects important in flying training
(all of our pilots life):
1.- (Know the) Weather
2.- Emergency landing training.
# 1 Should be our everyday practice, flying or not, # 2 Should be a
constant practice when ever we dont have any place to go, instead of
just flying around, do some stall "feeling" and landings to the mark
with engine (at least) in idle, without engine "help" when ever
possible and safe.
Something very common and required here for ultralights pilots (mainly
in 2 cycle engines), I know several of you never have flown an
ultralight with 2 cycle engine, but any plane, even the Shuttle, has
the potential of a failure, hopely never will happen to us, but...
Knowing our limits and where we need to improve is beeing responsible
of our own life.
Just my point of view.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
--- Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> A recently completed 601 XL in my area suffered just such an
> accident. An
> oil cooler line came loose in flight and the Jabiru engine seized
> before the
> pilot could make it back to the airport. He make an forced landing in
> a
> field and got it almost stopped when the nose wheel dropped into a
> hole and
> the plane flipped over. The pilot walked away with only minor
> injuries.
>
> A roll bar for the 601 probably wouldn't have to be very substantial
> to be
> effective in this sort of accident. You might want to carry a hatchet
> on
> board to hack your way out though.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Airframe construction complete.
> Panel and engine installed.
> Nearly done.
> do not archive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
http://companion.yahoo.com/
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
A highly experienced member of he Eagles aerobatic team flew with them from
the beginning until the act broke up after 25 years. Next year he was
flying a Seafury that he had outfitted for his new airshow act.
A normal landing and the right brake locked up. The plane flipped over in
slowmotion and landed upside down.
He had taken the roll bar out previously. The canopy and the tail assy
were not enough to save him. He was held ok in his seat belt and shoulder
belt but he died because of the collapsed canopy and No rollover structure.
I would want one on any plane that had no substantial pilot protection
structure.
Tom Marson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Roll-Bar
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
<drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> Well, from a cost/benefit perspective, that's the most persuasive argument
> so far. I think I'll forego the rollbar.
> Here's hoping you're ok. Thanks for the post.
> BobMiller
>
>
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