Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:24 AM - CH 701 Fuel Management (Lowell Metz)
2. 05:19 AM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Hal Rozema)
3. 06:24 AM - Re: MAC Wing Walk (Brenton Battles)
4. 06:24 AM - Rivets (Carlos Sa)
5. 06:33 AM - Re: revits (Gig)
6. 06:52 AM - Re: revits (Scott Laughlin)
7. 06:58 AM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Johann)
8. 07:04 AM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Doon47@aol.com)
9. 07:09 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Bill Howerton)
10. 08:03 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Scott Laughlin)
11. 08:09 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Jack Russell)
12. 08:42 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Bill Howerton)
13. 09:28 AM - Re: revits (Leo J. Corbalis)
14. 09:59 AM - Re: engines (ALEMBIC7@aol.com)
15. 10:25 AM - Re: revits (keith.maloney@comcast.net)
16. 10:33 AM - Re: engines (Trudy Ettelson)
17. 11:46 AM - Re: engines (Winston Ellis)
18. 12:48 PM - XL Wing Tip Curves (Scott Laughlin)
19. 01:45 PM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Chuck Deiterich)
20. 02:09 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (Carlos Sa)
21. 04:07 PM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
22. 04:39 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (Rico Voss)
23. 05:48 PM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Mark Townsend)
24. 06:12 PM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (ronnie wehba)
25. 06:26 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (JERICKSON03E@aol.com)
26. 06:31 PM - Re: 601 fairings under hstab (Frank Jones)
27. 07:21 PM - Re: revits (Tim & Diane Shankland)
28. 07:42 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (B K Johnson)
29. 07:55 PM - CH 701 Fuel Management (Carl Bertrand)
30. 09:00 PM - 701 Fuel Problem (Bill Martin)
31. 11:46 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (Brett Ray)
Message 1
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| Subject: | CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was caused
by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed my header
tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the header tank to
vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then shut the wing
tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned off. Repeat the
refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks are no longer filling
the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the top
of the header tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of the
seat, and then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened
fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ).
My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all the time
and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only having to watch
the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to drop in the
stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left. It doesn't
seem to work.
Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I pressurize
( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start flowing. It continues
then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a siphon Hummmm.
Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which is low on
the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header and then
the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm .
I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for restrictions. None...
I know this sounds like a venting problem but the vent line is free of
obstructions so something else must be going on and I am not taking my first flight
until I am sure that is no problem.
Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually feed the
header rather than manually managing the level in the header?
Lowell Metz
Venice FL.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Sounds like the same thing that the factory found with their demonstrator. I'd
ask Nick at Mexico.
That was one reason they did away with the header tank set up.
Hal Rozema
VSTOL701/3300
Phoenix
Lowell Metz wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
>
> For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was caused
by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed my header
tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the header tank
to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then shut the wing
tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned off. Repeat the
refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks are no longer filling
the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the
top of the header tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of
the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened
fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ).
> My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all the time
and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only having to
watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to drop in
the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left. It doesn't
seem to work.
>
> Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I pressurize
( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start flowing. It continues
then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a siphon Hummmm.
>
> Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which is low
on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header and then
the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm .
>
> I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for restrictions.
None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but the vent line is free of
obstructions so something else must be going on and I am not taking my first
flight until I am sure that is no problem.
>
> Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually feed the
header rather than manually managing the level in the header?
>
> Lowell Metz
> Venice FL.
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: MAC Wing Walk |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brenton Battles <brentbattles@charter.net>
I used non-skid sheeting from a marine supply store. It has worked
fine for almost 4 years with lots
of traffic (447 hours, 628 flights - including 196 passenger flights).
Brent Battles N16BZ
http://www.flappingpappy.com/zodiac/hangar.html
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Hi,
You can find some information on rivets here: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html
You will also find a number of postings on this subject in the archives.
Go to the search page (URL below) and enter combinations of "avdel", "textron"
and "rivet".
Be sure to set the list to "Zenith" - the default is "RV".
http://www.matronics.com/search/
Carlos
--- ronnie wehba <rwehba@wtxs.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
> just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing
> something here???, thanks ron in tx.
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
> just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing
> something here???, thanks ron in tx.
Zenith sells the ones made in England. At some point CH did some testing
and these tested better. I believe sheer strength was the issue.
Gig Giacona
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
From the Zenithair Website:
"Note: It is obvious that the notch depth in the stem is directly related to
the breaking load. The Avex rivets (from Textrons Avdel division)
manufactured in the state of New York and in Brazil do not have the
consistency of those manufactured in the UK and should not be used on
aircraft. Zenith Aircraft imports Avex rivets from England and makes a
systematic test on every lot received, thus guaranteeing the correct
quality. The FAA type-certificated ZENITH CH 2000 aircraft uses these same
rivets."
This information and LOTS more can be found at:
http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html
This information may be a little outdated, so do your own research.
Good luck with your project,
Scott Laughiln
www.cooknwithgas.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Gig <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
> just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing
> something here???, thanks ron in tx.
Zenith sells the ones made in England. At some point CH did some testing
and these tested better. I believe sheer strength was the issue.
Gig Giacona
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine.
http://wine.msn.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann" <johann@gi.is>
Hello Lowell.
My plan is to do the same as you are doing, use the tanks in the wing to
fill the header tank, with separate fuel pumps for each wing tank. Then
use a fuel gauge in the header tank and fuel flow meter in the
Stratomaster monitor.
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/E2/e2.html
The final thing to do is to get an auto shut off valve in the header
tank to shut off the fuel pumps in the wings, when the header tank is
almost full. I think this could be quite easy make from a car engine oil
censor or something simular.
No return line to the wings. I think that is your main reason for the
system to act up on you. Use vented fuel caps on the wings or a vent
line from the wing tanks.
This is just my idea gathered from the list members through the years of
building. I have not tried this setup yeat, but please take this as an
idea to try to solve your problem.
Best regards,
Johann G.
Iceland.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz"
<lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think
was caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am
to feed my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks
allowing the header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is
about full, then shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header
tank volume is burned off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and
note when the wing tanks are no longer filling the header which will
indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the top of the header
tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of the seat, and
then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened
fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ).
My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all
the time and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks ,
only having to watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the
fuel started to drop in the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a
half of fuel left. It doesn't seem to work.
Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I
pressurize ( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start
flowing. It continues then to flow until the header is full. This acts
like a siphon Hummmm.
Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which
is low on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the
header and then the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm
.
I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for
restrictions. None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but
the vent line is free of obstructions so something else must be going on
and I am not taking my first flight until I am sure that is no problem.
Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually
feed the header rather than manually managing the level in the header?
Lowell Metz
Venice FL.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Doon47@aol.com
LOWELL - Dave and I have been debating about how to vent the header tank. I
told him how you had set yours up and he thought vented fuel would lay in the
vent hose at its low point beneath the seat and that it would prevent air from
coming through the vent and into the header tank. We had been thinking about
routing the vent hose under the cabin skin (foreskin) and up the side of the
cabin frame to the wing so there would be no belly of fuel in the line to
prevent airflow to the header tank. Of course I'm very interested to hear how you
resolve this serious problem. CHIP
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: build order wings or fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
I agree and I disagree with Bryan. The wings kit does indeed contain the
wing spar which you will need to complete the fuse, they also contain the
crimping tool that you will also need. In addition to that, you will also
need many parts from both the gear and the controls kits to finish the
fuselage. So it would seem that Bryan makes a good and compelling argument
that you should order the wings first - perhaps along with the controls kit;
get them finished, then order your fuselage and gear kits.
However, I did the opposite, and ordered my fuselage first I talked it over
with Nick at ZAC, and he told me that it really didn't matter which kit you
ordered first. ZAC allowed me to order my wing spar separately, and they
will give me credit for the spar when I finally order the rest of the wings
kit (probably in late spring). One note: the wing spar is far and away THE
most expensive component - it is more than $2000 USD... more than half the
cost of the entire kit. My thinking was that it would be easier for me to
work on my fuse, get it on its gear, then roll it out of my garage, and into
the backyard (protected from the elements of course) then could work on my
wings last. I was more afraid that the wings would get damaged being stored
somewhere than would the fuse.
it's really up to you....
Bill Howerton - N714BH
601XL Corvair
Tail done, fuse 85%,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> on 1/7/04 12:58 AM, Eric Tauch at erictauch@comcast.net wrote:
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eric Tauch" <erictauch@comcast.net>
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should
order the
> > fuselage or the wings next?
> >
> > Does the order matter, or should one be done before the other?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Eric
> >
>
> If you are building the 601XL, you will need to order the wings next. The
> wing spar cary-though comes with the wings and is match drilled with the
> wing spars. You need this section to complete the fuselage anyway.
Besides,
> the wings are easier to build and can be more easily stored out of the way
> while you are working on the fuselage. It's much harder to get the
fuselage
> out of the way to make room for the construction of the wings if you have
> limited space.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Airframe construction complete.
> Panel and engine installed.
> Nearly done.
> do not archive.
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: build order wings or fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Bill and Eric:
I want to add my 2-cents about building the fuselage before the wings. The
wing spar consist of three pieces as you know. One for each wing, then the
center spar. Since all three are match drilled, then reamed for a perfect
fit, I don't see how you are going to get a good fit without having all
three pieces before installing the center spar in the fuselage. Maybe I'm
missing something, but by ordering the center spar alone, you are taking a
chance that the ZAC jig will change a little and not match your center spar.
It will be next to impossible (I think) to drill the wing spars to match
after the center spar is installed. I have not seen the center spar
installed in the fuselage, so I may be speaking out of school here.
Bill, is your center spar drilled with the 12 holes (6 on each side)?
Eric and Bill - take a look at this photo to see what I mean about
match-drilling the spars:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_20_03_Attach.jpg
The bigger photo with the bolts installed is here:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_24_03_Dihedral.JPG
The holes are also reamed while clamped together for a perfect fit once they
are drilled. The aluminum things you see in the photo are pins that I
machined to hold everything in place while drilling the next hole. Jason
Isley gave me this tip.
This is all done at the factory normally, but my spars were built by Jason
Isley without the holes drilled, so I had to drill and ream them. If I had
just built the center spar and started on the fuselage, I don't know how I
would have drilled and reamed the holes to match the wing spars.
Is all this clear as mud? I hope it gives you (Eric) a better idea of what
to expect. I'm building the wings first.
I hope this doesn't confuse anyone. If you want more details, email me
directly and I can send more photos, explanation, etc.
Scott Laughlin
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Z-601XL / Corvair
Archive if you want to.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: build order wings or fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
Eric Tauch <erictauch@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eric Tauch"
I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should order the
fuselage or the wings next?
Eric: I had the entire kit and when this decision came I went for the fuselage
only because I was tired of looking at pieces and wanted something more like a
plane in my shop. Space was not a problem.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: build order wings or fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
1. You're right Scott. The center spar IS matched with the other two. You
can't even get the center one by itself -- That's why it was so expensive.
2. Yes, it came predrilled with the 6 5/16" holes on each side that matched
the holes in the spar extensions.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Bill and Eric:
>
> I want to add my 2-cents about building the fuselage before the wings.
The
> wing spar consist of three pieces as you know. One for each wing, then
the
> center spar. Since all three are match drilled, then reamed for a perfect
> fit, I don't see how you are going to get a good fit without having all
> three pieces before installing the center spar in the fuselage. Maybe I'm
> missing something, but by ordering the center spar alone, you are taking a
> chance that the ZAC jig will change a little and not match your center
spar.
> It will be next to impossible (I think) to drill the wing spars to match
> after the center spar is installed. I have not seen the center spar
> installed in the fuselage, so I may be speaking out of school here.
>
> Bill, is your center spar drilled with the 12 holes (6 on each side)?
>
> Eric and Bill - take a look at this photo to see what I mean about
> match-drilling the spars:
>
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_20_03_Attach.jpg
>
> The bigger photo with the bolts installed is here:
>
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_24_03_Dihedral.JPG
>
> The holes are also reamed while clamped together for a perfect fit once
they
> are drilled. The aluminum things you see in the photo are pins that I
> machined to hold everything in place while drilling the next hole. Jason
> Isley gave me this tip.
>
> This is all done at the factory normally, but my spars were built by Jason
> Isley without the holes drilled, so I had to drill and ream them. If I
had
> just built the center spar and started on the fuselage, I don't know how I
> would have drilled and reamed the holes to match the wing spars.
>
> Is all this clear as mud? I hope it gives you (Eric) a better idea of
what
> to expect. I'm building the wings first.
>
> I hope this doesn't confuse anyone. If you want more details, email me
> directly and I can send more photos, explanation, etc.
>
> Scott Laughlin
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
> Z-601XL / Corvair
>
>
> Archive if you want to.
>
>
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
From: "Gig" <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits
I bought some round headed rivets with some extra aluminum because I only
needed a few to hold the skin over the instrument panel. BAD MOVE ! I had
to remove some and found that the mandrel breaks much higher in the rivet.
With the regular rivets, using the same drill bit you can gently drill the
head off the rivet easily. With the round head rivets, you hit the mandrel
and the drill bit goes off on its own digging for aluminum out of the skin.
Leo Corbalis
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com
Rob,
Do you have a handle on how much the Raven-Geo will weigh FWF as compared to
the 912S? Anyone?
AZ Steve
701 Rudder
Message 15
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: keith.maloney@comcast.net
Funny, this quality thing about rivets from the UK. I asked Chris Heintz directly
about the difference between UK and US made Avix rivets at Oshkosh in 2003.
He said there is no difference as they are both made to the same AN standard.
This was during a talk he gave on Avix rivets at AirVenture, Im sure someone
else on this list must have been there to hear it.
Keith
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
> >
> > just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing
> > something here???, thanks ron in tx.
>
> Zenith sells the ones made in England. At some point CH did some testing
> and these tested better. I believe sheer strength was the issue.
>
> Gig Giacona
> www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trudy Ettelson" <tettelso@socal.devry.edu>
** Reply Requested When Convenient **
Please remove me from your blind copy list; I don't know how I got on
it, but I am an English professor at DeVry University and don't
appreciate the thousands of emails I have to delete from my desktop.
Thanks for your help. Trudy
>>> ALEMBIC7@aol.com 01/07/04 09:53AM >>>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com
Rob,
Do you have a handle on how much the Raven-Geo will weigh FWF as
compared to
the 912S? Anyone?
AZ Steve
701 Rudder
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Winston Ellis <w1mdi@cox-internet.com>
My 1.3L Suzuki weighs a little less than 170 lbs with Raven redrive but without
radiator.
Winston Ellis
Ketchum, Idaho
CH701/Suzuki
ALEMBIC7@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com
>
> Rob,
> Do you have a handle on how much the Raven-Geo will weigh FWF as compared to
> the 912S? Anyone?
> AZ Steve
> 701 Rudder
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | XL Wing Tip Curves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Fellow Builders:
I have a question for those with at least one completed XL wing. I'm trying
to plot the correct wing tip curves (for trimming my wings). I'm using
VISIO, so I can draw the curve very accurately. When using the data points
from 6-W-9, there's almost no way to make a smooth curve. The note on the
drawing says:
"Wing tip is a smooth curve between the end of 6-W-5-1 and 6-W-7-1"
This is impossible with the dimensions given. For example, see this plot:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit1.jpg
An alternate and less desirable fit:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit2.jpg
Any body else run into this problem? The top is not just right either, but
it is closer.
Scott Laughlin
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
Lowell
I have two 10 gallon factory wing tanks in my 701 but no header tank. They
really hold about 10.5 gal each. With my Jabiru 2200 getting using a little
less than 4 gal/hr (about the same as a Rotax 912) I could get way over 4
hours of flight time.
I did not use a header tank as it has weight, takes up room behind the
panel, puts lots of gas in the cabin and requires attention more often.
With the heavier Rotax it also adds weight to the front. My batteries (two
6volt in series) are on the fire wall shelf, most with Rotax have to put the
battery behind the seat to get a good center of gravity.
I have a fuel valve where each fuel line exits the wing into the cabin and
use one tank at a time. There probably is enough gravity feed to get by, if
the fuel pump fails (the Bing carb on the Jabiru is under the engine) (I
also have a Faucet boost pump). You can see my fuel set up at:
http://members.thegateway.net/cfd. Look at Fuel System under Airplane.
Chuck D.
N701TX
----- Original Message -----
From: Lowell Metz <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz"
<lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
>
> For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was
caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed
my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the
header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then
shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned
off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks
are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I
routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage ,
up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing
skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of the
wing tank ).
sure that is no problem.
>
Lowell Metz
> Venice FL.
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Tip Curves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa <carlosfsa@yahoo.com>
Hello, Scott
I don't have much experience with Visio, but here is what I could do.
It seems to me that the point at (200, 380) needs to be moved to (200, ~377).
If you do that, then the red line is "it".
I suggest you try that of cardboard first...
Cheers
Carlos
--- Scott Laughlin <cookwithgas@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Fellow Builders:
>
> I have a question for those with at least one completed XL wing. I'm trying
> to plot the correct wing tip curves (for trimming my wings). I'm using
> VISIO, so I can draw the curve very accurately. When using the data points
> from 6-W-9, there's almost no way to make a smooth curve. The note on the
> drawing says:
>
> "Wing tip is a smooth curve between the end of 6-W-5-1 and 6-W-7-1"
>
> This is impossible with the dimensions given. For example, see this plot:
>
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit1.jpg
>
> An alternate and less desirable fit:
>
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit2.jpg
>
> Any body else run into this problem? The top is not just right either, but
> it is closer.
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
First, lets keep this one going until all are satisfied that your problem has
been definitely identified.
Secondly, like many builders, I have opted to omit the header tank because of
the space-behind-the-panel issue as well as CG / W&B concerns.
Next problem I have is that my kit, #4433, was just at the time (spring 2001)
when ZAC transitioned from the old hand-drawn drawings to the first CAD
drawings.
Wing tanks were listed as "WTO" (wing tank option), the header is a "D" tank
(which is for sale), the wing tanks have no, repeat, no senders.
The 912 is an addendum to the drawings. I have a LOT of addendums &
supplements.
Yes, I do have updated CAD drawings, where I can point out numerous
contradictions with reality.
Now I have the compliance issue (fuel quanity indicator). I may be forced to
remove the wing tank covers, cut holes in the tanks and install the
capacitance-type solid-state Westach senders.
All was going well until I read Fuel Management 101.
Who wants to jump into this? Looks like we need some help mixed in with the
snipes.
Thanks,
Zed Smith/701/912/air-to-air refueling?
do not archive
Hello, Jon Croke!!
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Tip Curves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
> When using the data points
> > from 6-W-9, there's almost no way to make a smooth
> curve. The note on the
> > drawing says:
> >
> > "Wing tip is a smooth curve between the end of
> 6-W-5-1 and 6-W-7-1"
You is right, Scott, the numbers just don't jive --
doesn't matter how powerful a computer you use. Just
use the points as estimates and run your line thru the
middle of them.
I used a cardboard template on the leading edge, like
Carlos said. For the top surface, I used a thin
wooden dowel to fair the line from rear channel,
around the spar tip, and up to the leading edge.
Suggestion: Have a beer or two, step back about 3
feet, juggle things around till it "looks right".
--Rico, XL fuse, bogged down in holidays/work.
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
Message 23
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| Subject: | build order wings or fuselage |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Wings first so that they can be stored out of the way ! Fuselage first
if you want the wife to give you more time to work on the plane and get
it the hell out of the garage.
Mark Townsend
601XL EA-82MPFI Turbo
Alma, Ontario
I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should
order the fuselage or the wings next?
Does the order matter, or should one be done before the other?
Thanks,
Eric
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: build order wings or fuselage |
required 5, BAYES_00)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
ok mark,,i'll tell my wife that!!--and i ain't even ordered the 701 plans
yet "next week" don't tell her thou'.got to sell my kolb first ,,,but keppin
my minimax!! maybe she will tell me to just build a shop out back??"sniff''
whine''
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
>
> Wings first so that they can be stored out of the way ! Fuselage first
> if you want the wife to give you more time to work on the plane and get
> it the hell out of the garage.
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> 601XL EA-82MPFI Turbo
> Alma, Ontario
>
>
> I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should
> order the fuselage or the wings next?
>
> Does the order matter, or should one be done before the other?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eric
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Tip Curves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
For laying out the curves on my 701 wings, a length of 14 GA, two with
ground, romex type cable will be taped in place to describe the curves for final
marking.
The cable lays flat, will hold shape, and will accept the slight curves
necessary. And it will form around the nose skin too.
Hope this helps.
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | 601 fairings under hstab |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" <fjones@sympatico.ca>
Thanks to everyone for all the help. Should be pretty straighforward to
implement that fairing. I wonder if I'll notice any performance impact?
Every little bit helps!
Frank
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@megsinet.net>
Ron,
The best I can tell, the price.
Tim Shankland
ronnie wehba wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
>just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing
>something here???, thanks ron in tx.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tim & Diane Shankland" <tshank@megsinet.net>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits
>
>
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland
>>
>>
><tshank@megsinet.net>
>
>
>>A little aside to the English made rivet business. When I bought mine
>>from a local distributor and asked about where they were made he
>>informed me that Textron had outsourced all their production the England
>>so any of them you buy are made in the English plant.
>>
>>Tim Shankland
>>
>>Monty Graves wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
>>>
>>>Here is a post by our own Carlos Sa back in Dec 01 on the Matronics list.
>>>I Ordered my rivets from this source which are the same English made
>>>
>>>
>rivets
>
>
>>>Zenith sells and advocates in their kits. Last year, and with the $30+
>>>UPS import fee, they were still around 3.5 cents per rivet in US
>>>
>>>
>currency.
>
>
>>>They took my credit card order, and shipped UPS... The exchange rate,
>>>
>>>
>will
>
>
>>>of course vary. They will ask you if you have contacted the Textron
>>>
>>>
>Div
>
>
>>>in the US, and SAY YES, but they wont sell the English rivets. Which
>>>
>>>
>they
>
>
>>>don't. No hassle no fuss. On 8000 rivets thats a savings of around
>>>
>>>
>$500
>
>
>>>Thank you Carlos Sa for posting this info...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>http://www.avdel.textron.com/brochures/breakstem/html_tables/avex_1604.htm
>>
>>
>>>Monty
>>>=====================
>>>
>>>Date:
>>> Dec 11, 2001
>>>
>>>From:
>>> Carlos Sa <wings1@videotron.ca>
>>>
>>>Subject:
>>> Re: Avdel Rivets
>>>
>>>
>>> > BTW does anyone have a link for more rivets cheap?
>>>
>>> I ordered by phone from Avdel:
>>> Avdel Division of Textron Canada Limited
>>> 87 Disco Road
>>> Rexdale, Ontario M9W 1M3
>>> Telephone: 1-800-268-9947 or (416) 679-0622
>>> Facsimile: 1-800-594-7661 or (416) 679-0678
>>> sales@avdeltextron.ca
>>>
>>> You will need the part numbers:
>>> A4 (1/4") 01604-00412
>>> A5 (5/32") 01604-00514
>>>
>>> prices for 1000:
>>> A4 CDN$46.32
>>> A5 CDN$56.10
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>>
>>>
>>>==========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>At 09:05 PM 1/4/04 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jarek M. Walter"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>><jarek.walter@sympatico.ca>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Check the www.rivetsplus.com. They seem to have a good price if you are
>>>>buying more than 600.
>>>>Jarek
>>>>CH701, forming parts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>>>>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>>>Subject: Zenith-List: revits
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>been looking for a good buy on the blind revits,avdel avex, is this a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>brand name or type?, found avdel but what is AVEX? and the a4 and a5 on
>>>>
>>>>
>the
>
>
>>>>701 mat.list is that there way of sizing?, thanks guys
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Tip Curves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: B K Johnson <wa7dvd@comcast.net>
Hi,
I had the same problem for my XL. I plotted the curve using Turbo Cad, and then
cut out templates from poster board. It took a little tweaking, but I got a
smooth curve that fits and the template can be reversed to do the left tip when
I
get there.
Bruce Johnson
N601BK (reserved)
Scott Laughlin wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Fellow Builders:
>
> I have a question for those with at least one completed XL wing. I'm trying
> to plot the correct wing tip curves (for trimming my wings). I'm using
Message 29
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| Subject: | CH 701 Fuel Management |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Bertrand" <cgbrt@mondenet.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management
> Hi Lowell.
> Welcome to 701s with fuel feed problems. I started with the configuration
> you described and gradually modified to removing the header and replacing
it
> with a small collector attached to the rear of the rear wall of the
baggage
> compartment.
> I've gone to this configuration for various reasons, one being fuel feed
> problems from the wing tanks with the original set-up. They never actually
> failed to feed but were sometimes slow to start. Most of the problems
> disappeared when I welded forward facing vents on the fuel caps. However,
> identifying the real cause (s) is something else.
> For a while I suspect that as someone has already posted, the problem was
> fuel in the vent line sitting in a low spot. For some reason, the fuel
acts
> as a plug and until sufficient air pressure builds up to push it out, fuel
> refuses to feed from the wings. I have not ruled it out completely, as it
> may explain why fuel would not start to feed even when the a/c was at
rest.
> In the air I believe air pressure is the main culprit. The fuel caps are
> located near the centre of lowest pressure over the wings and are
therefore
> in a bad location to act as vents. They are in a ideal location to act as
> siphons. Depending on where the header vent line exits, you can actually
end
> up with a neutral or higher pressure at that exit than at the fuel cap
> vents. This would explain why the wings are reluctant to feed. In this
> regard, the old stand pipe vent to under the wing from ZAC make sense.
> In my present system, the collector tank vent is connected to the top of
the
> right wing tank and is angled downwards throughout its travel. The
advantage
> being that the pressure is always the same in the collector vent line as
in
> the right tank. Because the line is clear plastic it has the added
advantage
> of telling me when the right thank is empty by filling with air. With this
> configuration gravity does its magic and fuel feed has been very reliable
> from both left and right wings over the last two years with the new
system.
> Hope this helps solve your problem.
> Carl
> 701/912
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowell Metz" <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
> To: "Zenith List" <Zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 7:24 AM
> Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz"
> <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
> >
> > For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think
was
> caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed
> my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the
> header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full,
then
> shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is
burned
> off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks
> are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I
> routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage ,
> up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing
> skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of
the
> wing tank ).
> > My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all
the
> time and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only
having
> to watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to
> drop in the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left.
> It doesn't seem to work.
> >
> > Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I
> pressurize ( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start
flowing.
> It continues then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a
siphon
> Hummmm.
> >
> > Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which
is
> low on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header
> and then the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm .
> >
> > I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for
> restrictions. None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but the
> vent line is free of obstructions so something else must be going on and I
> am not taking my first flight until I am sure that is no problem.
> >
> > Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually
feed
> the header rather than manually managing the level in the header?
> >
> > Lowell Metz
> > Venice FL.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | 701 Fuel Problem |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Martin" <allpro2@bellsouth.net>
Wow, after reading Lowell's problems with fuel management, and others with questions
and answers about header tank removal....It sort of shakes your confidence
in the ZAC. I am a potential buyer and I am reading the bb's about potential
canidates for me to choose as a kit plane to build and now this about something
as mundane as a fuel managemnt problem on the 701. So is this something
that other builders have corrected on their own with no input from ZAC or a potential
problem others just over look and always keep their fingers cossed by
continually hoping their header tank collects enough fuel? Someone mentioned
the header tank has been eliminated. If so what was the solution? Is it something
as simple as a "cessna" type fuel selector switch, that is L-R-Both-Off?
If a new kit were purchased today, are the plans - revisions already updated
or am I looking at two years worth of revisions to the new CAD plans that
would come with a newly purchased kit? I am not trying to stir something up, just
trying to find the best bang for my buck.
Bill in central Florida
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: XL Wing Tip Curves |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
I just used those as general points took a black marker and drew a
smooth line then cut it. After I put the wing tip in I did some slight
triming. The whole thing took about half an hour. Don't over analize
it just do it.
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
>
> For laying out the curves on my 701 wings, a length of 14 GA, two
with
> ground, romex type cable will be taped in place to describe the
curves for final
> marking.
>
> The cable lays flat, will hold shape, and will accept the slight
curves
> necessary. And it will form around the nose skin too.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
> _-
=======================================================================
=
> _-
=======================================================================
=
> _-
=======================================================================
=
> _-
=======================================================================
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
-- Thanks
Brett Ray
owner Hog Air
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