---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/07/04: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:24 AM - CH 701 Fuel Management (Lowell Metz) 2. 05:19 AM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Hal Rozema) 3. 06:24 AM - Re: MAC Wing Walk (Brenton Battles) 4. 06:24 AM - Rivets (Carlos Sa) 5. 06:33 AM - Re: revits (Gig) 6. 06:52 AM - Re: revits (Scott Laughlin) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Johann) 8. 07:04 AM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Doon47@aol.com) 9. 07:09 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Bill Howerton) 10. 08:03 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Scott Laughlin) 11. 08:09 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Jack Russell) 12. 08:42 AM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Bill Howerton) 13. 09:28 AM - Re: revits (Leo J. Corbalis) 14. 09:59 AM - Re: engines (ALEMBIC7@aol.com) 15. 10:25 AM - Re: revits (keith.maloney@comcast.net) 16. 10:33 AM - Re: engines (Trudy Ettelson) 17. 11:46 AM - Re: engines (Winston Ellis) 18. 12:48 PM - XL Wing Tip Curves (Scott Laughlin) 19. 01:45 PM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (Chuck Deiterich) 20. 02:09 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (Carlos Sa) 21. 04:07 PM - Re: CH 701 Fuel Management (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 22. 04:39 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (Rico Voss) 23. 05:48 PM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (Mark Townsend) 24. 06:12 PM - Re: build order wings or fuselage (ronnie wehba) 25. 06:26 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 26. 06:31 PM - Re: 601 fairings under hstab (Frank Jones) 27. 07:21 PM - Re: revits (Tim & Diane Shankland) 28. 07:42 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (B K Johnson) 29. 07:55 PM - CH 701 Fuel Management (Carl Bertrand) 30. 09:00 PM - 701 Fuel Problem (Bill Martin) 31. 11:46 PM - Re: XL Wing Tip Curves (Brett Ray) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:56 AM PST US From: "Lowell Metz" Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ). My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all the time and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only having to watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to drop in the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left. It doesn't seem to work. Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I pressurize ( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start flowing. It continues then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a siphon Hummmm. Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which is low on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header and then the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm . I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for restrictions. None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but the vent line is free of obstructions so something else must be going on and I am not taking my first flight until I am sure that is no problem. Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually feed the header rather than manually managing the level in the header? Lowell Metz Venice FL. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:12 AM PST US From: Hal Rozema Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema Sounds like the same thing that the factory found with their demonstrator. I'd ask Nick at Mexico. That was one reason they did away with the header tank set up. Hal Rozema VSTOL701/3300 Phoenix Lowell Metz wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" > > For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ). > My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all the time and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only having to watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to drop in the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left. It doesn't seem to work. > > Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I pressurize ( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start flowing. It continues then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a siphon Hummmm. > > Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which is low on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header and then the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm . > > I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for restrictions. None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but the vent line is free of obstructions so something else must be going on and I am not taking my first flight until I am sure that is no problem. > > Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually feed the header rather than manually managing the level in the header? > > Lowell Metz > Venice FL. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: MAC Wing Walk From: Brenton Battles --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brenton Battles I used non-skid sheeting from a marine supply store. It has worked fine for almost 4 years with lots of traffic (447 hours, 628 flights - including 196 passenger flights). Brent Battles N16BZ http://www.flappingpappy.com/zodiac/hangar.html ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:51 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hi, You can find some information on rivets here: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html You will also find a number of postings on this subject in the archives. Go to the search page (URL below) and enter combinations of "avdel", "textron" and "rivet". Be sure to set the list to "Zenith" - the default is "RV". http://www.matronics.com/search/ Carlos --- ronnie wehba wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" > > just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing > something here???, thanks ron in tx. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:06 AM PST US From: Gig Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" > > just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing > something here???, thanks ron in tx. Zenith sells the ones made in England. At some point CH did some testing and these tested better. I believe sheer strength was the issue. Gig Giacona www.peoamerica.net/N601WR DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:06 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" From the Zenithair Website: "Note: It is obvious that the notch depth in the stem is directly related to the breaking load. The Avex rivets (from Textrons Avdel division) manufactured in the state of New York and in Brazil do not have the consistency of those manufactured in the UK and should not be used on aircraft. Zenith Aircraft imports Avex rivets from England and makes a systematic test on every lot received, thus guaranteeing the correct quality. The FAA type-certificated ZENITH CH 2000 aircraft uses these same rivets." This information and LOTS more can be found at: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-87-1.html This information may be a little outdated, so do your own research. Good luck with your project, Scott Laughiln www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Gig Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" > > just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing > something here???, thanks ron in tx. Zenith sells the ones made in England. At some point CH did some testing and these tested better. I believe sheer strength was the issue. Gig Giacona www.peoamerica.net/N601WR DO NOT ARCHIVE Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine. http://wine.msn.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:20 AM PST US From: "Johann" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann" Hello Lowell. My plan is to do the same as you are doing, use the tanks in the wing to fill the header tank, with separate fuel pumps for each wing tank. Then use a fuel gauge in the header tank and fuel flow meter in the Stratomaster monitor. http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/E2/e2.html The final thing to do is to get an auto shut off valve in the header tank to shut off the fuel pumps in the wings, when the header tank is almost full. I think this could be quite easy make from a car engine oil censor or something simular. No return line to the wings. I think that is your main reason for the system to act up on you. Use vented fuel caps on the wings or a vent line from the wing tanks. This is just my idea gathered from the list members through the years of building. I have not tried this setup yeat, but please take this as an idea to try to solve your problem. Best regards, Johann G. Iceland. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ). My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all the time and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only having to watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to drop in the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left. It doesn't seem to work. Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I pressurize ( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start flowing. It continues then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a siphon Hummmm. Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which is low on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header and then the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm . I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for restrictions. None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but the vent line is free of obstructions so something else must be going on and I am not taking my first flight until I am sure that is no problem. Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually feed the header rather than manually managing the level in the header? Lowell Metz Venice FL. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:39 AM PST US From: Doon47@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: Doon47@aol.com LOWELL - Dave and I have been debating about how to vent the header tank. I told him how you had set yours up and he thought vented fuel would lay in the vent hose at its low point beneath the seat and that it would prevent air from coming through the vent and into the header tank. We had been thinking about routing the vent hose under the cabin skin (foreskin) and up the side of the cabin frame to the wing so there would be no belly of fuel in the line to prevent airflow to the header tank. Of course I'm very interested to hear how you resolve this serious problem. CHIP ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:06 AM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" I agree and I disagree with Bryan. The wings kit does indeed contain the wing spar which you will need to complete the fuse, they also contain the crimping tool that you will also need. In addition to that, you will also need many parts from both the gear and the controls kits to finish the fuselage. So it would seem that Bryan makes a good and compelling argument that you should order the wings first - perhaps along with the controls kit; get them finished, then order your fuselage and gear kits. However, I did the opposite, and ordered my fuselage first I talked it over with Nick at ZAC, and he told me that it really didn't matter which kit you ordered first. ZAC allowed me to order my wing spar separately, and they will give me credit for the spar when I finally order the rest of the wings kit (probably in late spring). One note: the wing spar is far and away THE most expensive component - it is more than $2000 USD... more than half the cost of the entire kit. My thinking was that it would be easier for me to work on my fuse, get it on its gear, then roll it out of my garage, and into the backyard (protected from the elements of course) then could work on my wings last. I was more afraid that the wings would get damaged being stored somewhere than would the fuse. it's really up to you.... Bill Howerton - N714BH 601XL Corvair Tail done, fuse 85%, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin > > on 1/7/04 12:58 AM, Eric Tauch at erictauch@comcast.net wrote: > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eric Tauch" > > > > Greetings, > > > > I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should order the > > fuselage or the wings next? > > > > Does the order matter, or should one be done before the other? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eric > > > > If you are building the 601XL, you will need to order the wings next. The > wing spar cary-though comes with the wings and is match drilled with the > wing spars. You need this section to complete the fuselage anyway. Besides, > the wings are easier to build and can be more easily stored out of the way > while you are working on the fuselage. It's much harder to get the fuselage > out of the way to make room for the construction of the wings if you have > limited space. > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. > Airframe construction complete. > Panel and engine installed. > Nearly done. > do not archive. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:11 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Bill and Eric: I want to add my 2-cents about building the fuselage before the wings. The wing spar consist of three pieces as you know. One for each wing, then the center spar. Since all three are match drilled, then reamed for a perfect fit, I don't see how you are going to get a good fit without having all three pieces before installing the center spar in the fuselage. Maybe I'm missing something, but by ordering the center spar alone, you are taking a chance that the ZAC jig will change a little and not match your center spar. It will be next to impossible (I think) to drill the wing spars to match after the center spar is installed. I have not seen the center spar installed in the fuselage, so I may be speaking out of school here. Bill, is your center spar drilled with the 12 holes (6 on each side)? Eric and Bill - take a look at this photo to see what I mean about match-drilling the spars: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_20_03_Attach.jpg The bigger photo with the bolts installed is here: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_24_03_Dihedral.JPG The holes are also reamed while clamped together for a perfect fit once they are drilled. The aluminum things you see in the photo are pins that I machined to hold everything in place while drilling the next hole. Jason Isley gave me this tip. This is all done at the factory normally, but my spars were built by Jason Isley without the holes drilled, so I had to drill and ream them. If I had just built the center spar and started on the fuselage, I don't know how I would have drilled and reamed the holes to match the wing spars. Is all this clear as mud? I hope it gives you (Eric) a better idea of what to expect. I'm building the wings first. I hope this doesn't confuse anyone. If you want more details, email me directly and I can send more photos, explanation, etc. Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Z-601XL / Corvair Archive if you want to. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:20 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Eric Tauch wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Eric Tauch" I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should order the fuselage or the wings next? Eric: I had the entire kit and when this decision came I went for the fuselage only because I was tired of looking at pieces and wanted something more like a plane in my shop. Space was not a problem. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:54 AM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" 1. You're right Scott. The center spar IS matched with the other two. You can't even get the center one by itself -- That's why it was so expensive. 2. Yes, it came predrilled with the 6 5/16" holes on each side that matched the holes in the spar extensions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" > > Bill and Eric: > > I want to add my 2-cents about building the fuselage before the wings. The > wing spar consist of three pieces as you know. One for each wing, then the > center spar. Since all three are match drilled, then reamed for a perfect > fit, I don't see how you are going to get a good fit without having all > three pieces before installing the center spar in the fuselage. Maybe I'm > missing something, but by ordering the center spar alone, you are taking a > chance that the ZAC jig will change a little and not match your center spar. > It will be next to impossible (I think) to drill the wing spars to match > after the center spar is installed. I have not seen the center spar > installed in the fuselage, so I may be speaking out of school here. > > Bill, is your center spar drilled with the 12 holes (6 on each side)? > > Eric and Bill - take a look at this photo to see what I mean about > match-drilling the spars: > > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_20_03_Attach.jpg > > The bigger photo with the bolts installed is here: > > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/10_24_03_Dihedral.JPG > > The holes are also reamed while clamped together for a perfect fit once they > are drilled. The aluminum things you see in the photo are pins that I > machined to hold everything in place while drilling the next hole. Jason > Isley gave me this tip. > > This is all done at the factory normally, but my spars were built by Jason > Isley without the holes drilled, so I had to drill and ream them. If I had > just built the center spar and started on the fuselage, I don't know how I > would have drilled and reamed the holes to match the wing spars. > > Is all this clear as mud? I hope it gives you (Eric) a better idea of what > to expect. I'm building the wings first. > > I hope this doesn't confuse anyone. If you want more details, email me > directly and I can send more photos, explanation, etc. > > Scott Laughlin > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ > Z-601XL / Corvair > > > Archive if you want to. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:51 AM PST US From: "Leo J. Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" From: "Gig" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits I bought some round headed rivets with some extra aluminum because I only needed a few to hold the skin over the instrument panel. BAD MOVE ! I had to remove some and found that the mandrel breaks much higher in the rivet. With the regular rivets, using the same drill bit you can gently drill the head off the rivet easily. With the round head rivets, you hit the mandrel and the drill bit goes off on its own digging for aluminum out of the skin. Leo Corbalis ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:24 AM PST US From: ALEMBIC7@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com Rob, Do you have a handle on how much the Raven-Geo will weigh FWF as compared to the 912S? Anyone? AZ Steve 701 Rudder ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:13 AM PST US From: keith.maloney@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits --> Zenith-List message posted by: keith.maloney@comcast.net Funny, this quality thing about rivets from the UK. I asked Chris Heintz directly about the difference between UK and US made Avix rivets at Oshkosh in 2003. He said there is no difference as they are both made to the same AN standard. This was during a talk he gave on Avix rivets at AirVenture, Im sure someone else on this list must have been there to hear it. Keith > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" > > > > just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing > > something here???, thanks ron in tx. > > Zenith sells the ones made in England. At some point CH did some testing > and these tested better. I believe sheer strength was the issue. > > Gig Giacona > www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:59 AM PST US From: "Trudy Ettelson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trudy Ettelson" ** Reply Requested When Convenient ** Please remove me from your blind copy list; I don't know how I got on it, but I am an English professor at DeVry University and don't appreciate the thousands of emails I have to delete from my desktop. Thanks for your help. Trudy >>> ALEMBIC7@aol.com 01/07/04 09:53AM >>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com Rob, Do you have a handle on how much the Raven-Geo will weigh FWF as compared to the 912S? Anyone? AZ Steve 701 Rudder ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:53 AM PST US From: Winston Ellis Subject: Re: Zenith-List: engines --> Zenith-List message posted by: Winston Ellis My 1.3L Suzuki weighs a little less than 170 lbs with Raven redrive but without radiator. Winston Ellis Ketchum, Idaho CH701/Suzuki ALEMBIC7@aol.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com > > Rob, > Do you have a handle on how much the Raven-Geo will weigh FWF as compared to > the 912S? Anyone? > AZ Steve > 701 Rudder > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:41 PM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Zenith-List: XL Wing Tip Curves --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Fellow Builders: I have a question for those with at least one completed XL wing. I'm trying to plot the correct wing tip curves (for trimming my wings). I'm using VISIO, so I can draw the curve very accurately. When using the data points from 6-W-9, there's almost no way to make a smooth curve. The note on the drawing says: "Wing tip is a smooth curve between the end of 6-W-5-1 and 6-W-7-1" This is impossible with the dimensions given. For example, see this plot: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit1.jpg An alternate and less desirable fit: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit2.jpg Any body else run into this problem? The top is not just right either, but it is closer. Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:49 PM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Lowell I have two 10 gallon factory wing tanks in my 701 but no header tank. They really hold about 10.5 gal each. With my Jabiru 2200 getting using a little less than 4 gal/hr (about the same as a Rotax 912) I could get way over 4 hours of flight time. I did not use a header tank as it has weight, takes up room behind the panel, puts lots of gas in the cabin and requires attention more often. With the heavier Rotax it also adds weight to the front. My batteries (two 6volt in series) are on the fire wall shelf, most with Rotax have to put the battery behind the seat to get a good center of gravity. I have a fuel valve where each fuel line exits the wing into the cabin and use one tank at a time. There probably is enough gravity feed to get by, if the fuel pump fails (the Bing carb on the Jabiru is under the engine) (I also have a Faucet boost pump). You can see my fuel set up at: http://members.thegateway.net/cfd. Look at Fuel System under Airplane. Chuck D. N701TX ----- Original Message ----- From: Lowell Metz Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" > > For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage , up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of the wing tank ). sure that is no problem. > Lowell Metz > Venice FL. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:14 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Tip Curves --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, Scott I don't have much experience with Visio, but here is what I could do. It seems to me that the point at (200, 380) needs to be moved to (200, ~377). If you do that, then the red line is "it". I suggest you try that of cardboard first... Cheers Carlos --- Scott Laughlin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" > > Fellow Builders: > > I have a question for those with at least one completed XL wing. I'm trying > to plot the correct wing tip curves (for trimming my wings). I'm using > VISIO, so I can draw the curve very accurately. When using the data points > from 6-W-9, there's almost no way to make a smooth curve. The note on the > drawing says: > > "Wing tip is a smooth curve between the end of 6-W-5-1 and 6-W-7-1" > > This is impossible with the dimensions given. For example, see this plot: > > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit1.jpg > > An alternate and less desirable fit: > > http://www.cooknwithgas.com/BottomFit2.jpg > > Any body else run into this problem? The top is not just right either, but > it is closer. > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:52 PM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com First, lets keep this one going until all are satisfied that your problem has been definitely identified. Secondly, like many builders, I have opted to omit the header tank because of the space-behind-the-panel issue as well as CG / W&B concerns. Next problem I have is that my kit, #4433, was just at the time (spring 2001) when ZAC transitioned from the old hand-drawn drawings to the first CAD drawings. Wing tanks were listed as "WTO" (wing tank option), the header is a "D" tank (which is for sale), the wing tanks have no, repeat, no senders. The 912 is an addendum to the drawings. I have a LOT of addendums & supplements. Yes, I do have updated CAD drawings, where I can point out numerous contradictions with reality. Now I have the compliance issue (fuel quanity indicator). I may be forced to remove the wing tank covers, cut holes in the tanks and install the capacitance-type solid-state Westach senders. All was going well until I read Fuel Management 101. Who wants to jump into this? Looks like we need some help mixed in with the snipes. Thanks, Zed Smith/701/912/air-to-air refueling? do not archive Hello, Jon Croke!! ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:11 PM PST US From: Rico Voss Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Tip Curves --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss > When using the data points > > from 6-W-9, there's almost no way to make a smooth > curve. The note on the > > drawing says: > > > > "Wing tip is a smooth curve between the end of > 6-W-5-1 and 6-W-7-1" You is right, Scott, the numbers just don't jive -- doesn't matter how powerful a computer you use. Just use the points as estimates and run your line thru the middle of them. I used a cardboard template on the leading edge, like Carlos said. For the top surface, I used a thin wooden dowel to fair the line from rear channel, around the spar tip, and up to the leading edge. Suggestion: Have a beer or two, step back about 3 feet, juggle things around till it "looks right". --Rico, XL fuse, bogged down in holidays/work. __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:51 PM PST US From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Wings first so that they can be stored out of the way ! Fuselage first if you want the wife to give you more time to work on the plane and get it the hell out of the garage. Mark Townsend 601XL EA-82MPFI Turbo Alma, Ontario I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should order the fuselage or the wings next? Does the order matter, or should one be done before the other? Thanks, Eric ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:01 PM PST US From: "ronnie wehba" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage required 5, BAYES_00) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" ok mark,,i'll tell my wife that!!--and i ain't even ordered the 701 plans yet "next week" don't tell her thou'.got to sell my kolb first ,,,but keppin my minimax!! maybe she will tell me to just build a shop out back??"sniff'' whine'' ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: build order wings or fuselage > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > Wings first so that they can be stored out of the way ! Fuselage first > if you want the wife to give you more time to work on the plane and get > it the hell out of the garage. > > > Mark Townsend > 601XL EA-82MPFI Turbo > Alma, Ontario > > > I have recently finished the empennage, and am wondering if I should > order the fuselage or the wings next? > > Does the order matter, or should one be done before the other? > > Thanks, > > Eric > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:15 PM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Tip Curves --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com For laying out the curves on my 701 wings, a length of 14 GA, two with ground, romex type cable will be taped in place to describe the curves for final marking. The cable lays flat, will hold shape, and will accept the slight curves necessary. And it will form around the nose skin too. Hope this helps. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:33 PM PST US From: "Frank Jones" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 fairings under hstab --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Frank Jones" Thanks to everyone for all the help. Should be pretty straighforward to implement that fairing. I wonder if I'll notice any performance impact? Every little bit helps! Frank ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:20 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland Ron, The best I can tell, the price. Tim Shankland ronnie wehba wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" > >just what makes the revits in the zenith A/C so special?, or am i missing >something here???, thanks ron in tx. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim & Diane Shankland" >To: >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: revits > > > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland >> >> > > > >>A little aside to the English made rivet business. When I bought mine >>from a local distributor and asked about where they were made he >>informed me that Textron had outsourced all their production the England >>so any of them you buy are made in the English plant. >> >>Tim Shankland >> >>Monty Graves wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves >>> >>>Here is a post by our own Carlos Sa back in Dec 01 on the Matronics list. >>>I Ordered my rivets from this source which are the same English made >>> >>> >rivets > > >>>Zenith sells and advocates in their kits. Last year, and with the $30+ >>>UPS import fee, they were still around 3.5 cents per rivet in US >>> >>> >currency. > > >>>They took my credit card order, and shipped UPS... The exchange rate, >>> >>> >will > > >>>of course vary. They will ask you if you have contacted the Textron >>> >>> >Div > > >>>in the US, and SAY YES, but they wont sell the English rivets. Which >>> >>> >they > > >>>don't. No hassle no fuss. On 8000 rivets thats a savings of around >>> >>> >$500 > > >>>Thank you Carlos Sa for posting this info... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>http://www.avdel.textron.com/brochures/breakstem/html_tables/avex_1604.htm >> >> >>>Monty >>>===================== >>> >>>Date: >>> Dec 11, 2001 >>> >>>From: >>> Carlos Sa >>> >>>Subject: >>> Re: Avdel Rivets >>> >>> >>> > BTW does anyone have a link for more rivets cheap? >>> >>> I ordered by phone from Avdel: >>> Avdel Division of Textron Canada Limited >>> 87 Disco Road >>> Rexdale, Ontario M9W 1M3 >>> Telephone: 1-800-268-9947 or (416) 679-0622 >>> Facsimile: 1-800-594-7661 or (416) 679-0678 >>> sales@avdeltextron.ca >>> >>> You will need the part numbers: >>> A4 (1/4") 01604-00412 >>> A5 (5/32") 01604-00514 >>> >>> prices for 1000: >>> A4 CDN$46.32 >>> A5 CDN$56.10 >>> >>> Carlos >>> >>> >>>========================================== >>> >>> >>>At 09:05 PM 1/4/04 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jarek M. Walter" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Check the www.rivetsplus.com. They seem to have a good price if you are >>>>buying more than 600. >>>>Jarek >>>>CH701, forming parts >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "ronnie wehba" >>>>To: >>>>Subject: Zenith-List: revits >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" >>>>> >>>>>been looking for a good buy on the blind revits,avdel avex, is this a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>brand name or type?, found avdel but what is AVEX? and the a4 and a5 on >>>> >>>> >the > > >>>>701 mat.list is that there way of sizing?, thanks guys >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:43 PM PST US From: B K Johnson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Tip Curves --> Zenith-List message posted by: B K Johnson Hi, I had the same problem for my XL. I plotted the curve using Turbo Cad, and then cut out templates from poster board. It took a little tweaking, but I got a smooth curve that fits and the template can be reversed to do the left tip when I get there. Bruce Johnson N601BK (reserved) Scott Laughlin wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" > > Fellow Builders: > > I have a question for those with at least one completed XL wing. I'm trying > to plot the correct wing tip curves (for trimming my wings). I'm using ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:28 PM PST US From: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management > Hi Lowell. > Welcome to 701s with fuel feed problems. I started with the configuration > you described and gradually modified to removing the header and replacing it > with a small collector attached to the rear of the rear wall of the baggage > compartment. > I've gone to this configuration for various reasons, one being fuel feed > problems from the wing tanks with the original set-up. They never actually > failed to feed but were sometimes slow to start. Most of the problems > disappeared when I welded forward facing vents on the fuel caps. However, > identifying the real cause (s) is something else. > For a while I suspect that as someone has already posted, the problem was > fuel in the vent line sitting in a low spot. For some reason, the fuel acts > as a plug and until sufficient air pressure builds up to push it out, fuel > refuses to feed from the wings. I have not ruled it out completely, as it > may explain why fuel would not start to feed even when the a/c was at rest. > In the air I believe air pressure is the main culprit. The fuel caps are > located near the centre of lowest pressure over the wings and are therefore > in a bad location to act as vents. They are in a ideal location to act as > siphons. Depending on where the header vent line exits, you can actually end > up with a neutral or higher pressure at that exit than at the fuel cap > vents. This would explain why the wings are reluctant to feed. In this > regard, the old stand pipe vent to under the wing from ZAC make sense. > In my present system, the collector tank vent is connected to the top of the > right wing tank and is angled downwards throughout its travel. The advantage > being that the pressure is always the same in the collector vent line as in > the right tank. Because the line is clear plastic it has the added advantage > of telling me when the right thank is empty by filling with air. With this > configuration gravity does its magic and fuel feed has been very reliable > from both left and right wings over the last two years with the new system. > Hope this helps solve your problem. > Carl > 701/912 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lowell Metz" > To: "Zenith List" > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 7:24 AM > Subject: Zenith-List: CH 701 Fuel Management > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" > > > > > For those 701 drivers out there, I have a fuel systems problem I think was > caused by my outsmarting myself. According to the ZAC manual I am to feed > my header tank occasionally by valving from the wing tanks allowing the > header tank to vent into the cabin until the header tank is about full, then > shut the wing tanks off until about half of the header tank volume is burned > off. Repeat the refilling of the header tank and note when the wing tanks > are no longer filling the header which will indicate fuel remaining. I > routed a line from the top of the header tank back through the fuselage , > up along the back side of the seat, and then up to the top of the top wing > skin , ( terminating with a screened fitting at the height of the top of the > wing tank ). > > My thinking was that I then could leave the wing tanks flowing all the > time and the header would continually be fed by the wing tanks , only having > to watch the fuel gage stand pipe , knowing that once the fuel started to > drop in the stand pipe I would have about an hour and a half of fuel left. > It doesn't seem to work. > > > > Problem one.... I fill the wing tanks and the fuel sits there until I > pressurize ( blow into the filler neck ) causing the fuel to start flowing. > It continues then to flow until the header is full. This acts like a siphon > Hummmm. > > > > Problem two.... If I try to drain the header via the gascolator which is > low on the firewall , fuel only drains until a vacuum forms in the header > and then the flow stops. This indicates there is no vent... Hmmm . > > > > I have blown out all of the lines, and checked everywhere for > restrictions. None... I know this sounds like a venting problem but the > vent line is free of obstructions so something else must be going on and I > am not taking my first flight until I am sure that is no problem. > > > > Does anyone have a system or ideas to have the wing tanks continually feed > the header rather than manually managing the level in the header? > > > > Lowell Metz > > Venice FL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:45 PM PST US From: "Bill Martin" Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Fuel Problem --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Martin" Wow, after reading Lowell's problems with fuel management, and others with questions and answers about header tank removal....It sort of shakes your confidence in the ZAC. I am a potential buyer and I am reading the bb's about potential canidates for me to choose as a kit plane to build and now this about something as mundane as a fuel managemnt problem on the 701. So is this something that other builders have corrected on their own with no input from ZAC or a potential problem others just over look and always keep their fingers cossed by continually hoping their header tank collects enough fuel? Someone mentioned the header tank has been eliminated. If so what was the solution? Is it something as simple as a "cessna" type fuel selector switch, that is L-R-Both-Off? If a new kit were purchased today, are the plans - revisions already updated or am I looking at two years worth of revisions to the new CAD plans that would come with a newly purchased kit? I am not trying to stir something up, just trying to find the best bang for my buck. Bill in central Florida ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:46 PM PST US From: "Brett Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Wing Tip Curves --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" I just used those as general points took a black marker and drew a smooth line then cut it. After I put the wing tip in I did some slight triming. The whole thing took about half an hour. Don't over analize it just do it. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com > > For laying out the curves on my 701 wings, a length of 14 GA, two with > ground, romex type cable will be taped in place to describe the curves for final > marking. > > The cable lays flat, will hold shape, and will accept the slight curves > necessary. And it will form around the nose skin too. > > Hope this helps. > > > _- ======================================================================= = > _- ======================================================================= = > _- ======================================================================= = > _- ======================================================================= = > > > > > > -- Thanks Brett Ray owner Hog Air