---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/23/04: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:40 AM - Re: First Timer Question (Bob Miller) 2. 05:45 AM - Re: First Timer Question (Scott Laughlin) 3. 06:19 AM - Re: First Timer Question (Bill Howerton) 4. 08:37 AM - Re: First Timer Question (caspainhower@aep.com) 5. 09:35 AM - Re: First Timer Question (Jack Russell) 6. 10:10 AM - CH601 Brake pads (Richard McLachlan) 7. 11:35 AM - Re: CH601 Brake pads (Mike Fothergill) 8. 02:05 PM - Re: First Timer Question (Monty Graves) 9. 02:13 PM - Fuel Cap Engraving, Labeling, Indentifying (Wayne Cahoon @ Aircraft Engravers) 10. 04:06 PM - Re: First Timer Question (Chesterman Family) 11. 04:21 PM - One more "first-timer" suggestion -- (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 12. 04:41 PM - Prospect and Engine ? (Dan Sherburn) 13. 05:15 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (wizard-24@juno.com) 14. 05:20 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Larry McFarland) 15. 05:25 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Phil Maxson) 16. 05:34 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Jack Russell) 17. 05:38 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Tim & Diane Shankland) 18. 05:38 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Jack Russell) 19. 05:49 PM - Re: First Timer Question (MXSportPilot@aol.com) 20. 05:54 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (ronnie wehba) 21. 06:10 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Dan Sherburn) 22. 07:31 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Daniel Vandenberg) 23. 08:04 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Robert Hillebrand) 24. 09:41 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Kevin W Bonds) 25. 10:22 PM - Re: Prospect and Engine ? (Brett Ray) 26. 11:18 PM - Re: First Timer Question (Robin Gould) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:47 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Jack, It's funny what is encouraging. The one thing that detracts from my enjoyment of this project is my tendency to think I must be the only one who makes lots of mistakes and has to redo them. Reading your admission of many mistakes and how you've "remade half the plane" makes me feel much better about going out and getting started correcting the last one! Thanks, Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > > Mick wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mick > > I'm about to start ordering sections and tools to start building an XL. Any tips before I start? > > > Mick: One word - clecos. Order lots of clecos. Ok, maybe more than one word. I don't know how many I bought from ZAC (whatever was recommended) but I had to order about 200 more 1/8" from aircraft spruce. It seems I am always running out. > > Other tools which I could not live without are: > > Drill Press- Could be done without but I wouldn't want to. > > Air compressor -I love the sound of air tools because they sound so professional. The air drill is smaller and lighter than electric. I also have a right angle air drill. > > Jig saw- small cuts. Make sure you rig a way to hold the work down to the table. I use my table saw for long cuts even on thin work by clamping a board at the front of the blade and feeding the stock under the board. It keeps the thin piece from chattering. > > 40" bending brake from harbor- I started with a 30 and found it to small. I have made many mistakes and have remade parts with this brake. Which by the way, I you buy the complete kit, ZAC throws in enough scrap aluminum to build a second XL which is nice since I have probably remade half of the plane! > > Rivet spacing tool- handy > > Bench- I built 2 4x8 benchs that mate together with a inch overlap on the top plywood. I worked well to build the rear fuselage then I split it in the center to install the landing gear and front fuselage. It just seemed easier than the steel setup that ZAC shows. Then I put it back together to get started on the wings. > > Sharpie- Splurge and get a whole box. I think I am on my second. > > Angle Gage- One of those circle angle gages with a magnet on the bottom from Harbor that shows the degree of angle. I used this a lot but I can't seem to get it to stick to the aluminum. Must be something defective. > > Lots of different files: Chain saw files are also handy. And the best thing I found for smoothing a edge after cutting with hand cutter is the kind of knife sharpener with the V notch. > > 1/2" drill bit: After using all the deburring methods in the world I keep going back to the drill bit with a half twist by hand. Fast and I don't see that it cuts into the aluminum at all. It is a old dull one though. > > One other thing which you will need is a good vocabulary of profanity. > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:21 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Jack: That was a great post. It was better than a "first timer" answer! I've been building for one year and I benefited from the post! The tip on the knife sharpener is brilliant! I'll try that tonight. Just last night I was de-burring parts for my landing lights having fits with it. A pass with the knife sharpener followed by a file would have made quick work of it. Thanks! Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Mick wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mick I'm about to start ordering sections and tools to start building an XL. Any tips before I start? Mick: One word - clecos. Order lots of clecos. Ok, maybe more than one word. I don't know how many I bought from ZAC (whatever was recommended) but I had to order about 200 more 1/8" from aircraft spruce. It seems I am always running out. Other tools which I could not live without are: Drill Press- Could be done without but I wouldn't want to. Air compressor -I love the sound of air tools because they sound so professional. The air drill is smaller and lighter than electric. I also have a right angle air drill. Jig saw- small cuts. Make sure you rig a way to hold the work down to the table. I use my table saw for long cuts even on thin work by clamping a board at the front of the blade and feeding the stock under the board. It keeps the thin piece from chattering. 40" bending brake from harbor- I started with a 30 and found it to small. I have made many mistakes and have remade parts with this brake. Which by the way, I you buy the complete kit, ZAC throws in enough scrap aluminum to build a second XL which is nice since I have probably remade half of the plane! Rivet spacing tool- handy Bench- I built 2 4x8 benchs that mate together with a inch overlap on the top plywood. I worked well to build the rear fuselage then I split it in the center to install the landing gear and front fuselage. It just seemed easier than the steel setup that ZAC shows. Then I put it back together to get started on the wings. Sharpie- Splurge and get a whole box. I think I am on my second. Angle Gage- One of those circle angle gages with a magnet on the bottom from Harbor that shows the degree of angle. I used this a lot but I can't seem to get it to stick to the aluminum. Must be something defective. Lots of different files: Chain saw files are also handy. And the best thing I found for smoothing a edge after cutting with hand cutter is the kind of knife sharpener with the V notch. 1/2" drill bit: After using all the deburring methods in the world I keep going back to the drill bit with a half twist by hand. Fast and I don't see that it cuts into the aluminum at all. It is a old dull one though. One other thing which you will need is a good vocabulary of profanity. Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software optimizes dial-up to the max! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:54 AM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" Mick, Fist off let me welcome you to our little fraternity here! It's a pretty select group that you've chosen to join. It takes a fairly large set of brass balls to make the plunge both financially and notionally to build your own airplane with the stated intention of setting yourself into the cockpit that you've built, then taking that airplane into the sky. Congrats and Welcome! Second, let me suggest: 1. Get a GOOD set of aviation snips - you'll be using them allot 2. Find a good all-metal metrics ruler - you'll be using that allot too. 3. Get a good 90-degree drill\, and be prepared to buy LOTS of #40, #30 and #20 drill bits 4. Get a good riveter with a machined head (I've both ordered the ZAC ones and I've made my own) 5. Get a good set of bench-mounted tools (grinder, vice, saw and belt/disc sander) 6. You suggested you were a kit builder, so comments about bending brakes and welding techniques do not apply to you 7. make yourself a nice LEVEL table 4'X12' is the size I recommend- I also suggest putting onto it some hashmarks spaced at 1 inch - take a look at mine at http://bill.howerton.com/zodiac/zodiac_main.htm 8. Prepare to READ, READ READ and then when your done, READ some more. - I had no idea just how much study would go into this project, nor did I have any idea how many different subjects I would gain an expertise in - everything from sheetmetal construction techniques to aircraft fasteners to engine design and electrical systems theory. You will probably spend more time reading and studying than you will actually building. Notice that my thread had a common theme. Get GOOD tools! There are times that scrimping is OK, and others where it is not. Your tools purchase should definitely be listed in the not ok category. Finally, and perhaps this is the most impotent point, prepare to take your time have and fun. This essentially is a hobby - enjoy it! You're gonna hear from guys that say they built their airplane in 450 hours - more power to them. I personally have no idea how many hours I've been working on my plane, and I don't want to know. I go out to the garage, and start working, and the hours just melt away. Issues at work suddenly don't exist, other strifes from my life take a back-seat, and the only thing that is important doing a good job machining my seat-belt fastener. Again, Welcome! Bill Howerton N714BH - 601XL Corvair Colorado Springs, Co ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick" Subject: Zenith-List: First Timer Question > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mick > > I'm about to start ordering sections and tools to start building an XL. Any tips before I start? > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question From: caspainhower@aep.com 01/23/2004 11:36:33 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com >I'm about to start ordering sections and tools to start building an XL. Any tips before I start? Harbor Freight. I got a pnuematic riveter from ZAC and it died recently. I picked up the lightweight aircraft riveter from Harbor freight and it is faster, lighter and does a better job (a little less expensive too). The ZAC nose pieces work with it too. They have numerous styles of clamps there too, I got a selection of plastic spring clamps and some miniature c-clamps. Buy the best titanium coated drill bits you can get, I bought a set of DeWalt and couldn't be happier. Don't buy aviation sheers there though, the type ZAC sells work great. That's my 2-cents. Craig S. 601 XL, N601XS Lyc 0-235 This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:14 AM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Bill Howerton wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" You're gonna hear from guys that say they built their airplane in 450 hours - more power to them. I personally have no idea how many hours I've been working on my plane, and I don't want to know. I go out to the garage, and start working, and the hours just melt away. Issues at work suddenly don't exist, other strifes from my life take a back-seat, and the only thing that is important doing a good job machining my seat-belt fastener. Bill: Good point. I think all first timers need to be aware of this. I have posted this before but here it is again. The 500 hr build time was a big part of what sold the plane to me. Well, the 500 mark has come and gone and it doesn't really matter to me anymore. The important thing is the journey now.(sounds corny) I am almost afraid to finish because I think I will miss the process. Oh well, I guess their will be another plane to build. Right, Carlos in Mexico! jack do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:57 AM PST US From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 Brake pads --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" We have a CH601HDS that was the first one built in the UK. We need a new set of brake pads for it. As we did not build it ourselves, we do not have any of the original plans or documentation. I know the wheels come from came from Matco but I have no other information. Can anybody help with a part number so we can obtain some new ones? Thanks Richard McLachlan CH601/R22 landing site details at www.rodsley.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:11 AM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 Brake pads --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill Hi; The brake pads are a standard type that can be obtained from Aircraft Spruce P/N RA-106 or you can order them from Matco. Mike UHS Spinners Richard McLachlan wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > We have a CH601HDS that was the first one built in the UK. We need a new set > of brake pads for it. As we did not build it ourselves, we do not have any > of the original plans or documentation. I know the wheels come from came > from Matco but I have no other information. > > Can anybody help with a part number so we can obtain some new ones? > > Thanks > > Richard McLachlan > > CH601/R22 > > landing site details at www.rodsley.net > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:11 PM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves I will only add that the 2 best snips I have ever seen or owned. And I recommend highly. "Pro Snips" Brand, deep offset, red color handles if you are right handed. Green if you are a lefty. I saw the local Home Depot is handling them now. These offset snips are better than WISS aviation snips or any other brand for that matter. They don't have seerated edges, that leave riser marks when they cut that have to be removed. The deep offset ones cut either strait or curved. You won't need both colors, buy either red or green. Buy these before any others. You won't be sorrry. The other set of snips I recommend are made by Masco, which I own a 14 inch pair from Lowes... or a simalar brand is ANDY Snips, and can be found in the vinyl or alum siding dept of Lowes or Home Depot. They have replaceable blades, and do a great job of long strait cuts or large curves. The also don't leave any riser marks. The YARD in KS is the best place to buy Clecos, about 35 cents.PN:11011 And drill bits too. And the dog leg speed deburr tool PN : 14031 that every alum builder should own. And vixen files. and ... and.... http://www.yardstore.com/tools.htm Monty ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:08 PM PST US From: "Wayne Cahoon @ Aircraft Engravers" , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel Cap Engraving, Labeling, Indentifying --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wayne Cahoon @ Aircraft Engravers" Have your Fuel Caps engraved, it's permanent and easy to read. Aircraft Engravers has been engraving fuel caps for over 14 years. You can see our web page at http://engravers.net/aircraft/fuel_caps.htm Other types of engraving jobs can be viewed at http://engravers.net/main/ac_products.htm There are a few sets of loaner fuel caps for the more common styles if your tanks are wet. FREE shipping by USPS Priority mail for all fuel cap engraving orders in the month of February. Wayne Cahoon Aircraft Engravers (860) 653-2780 (860) 653-7324 Fax http://engravers.net/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:20 PM PST US From: Chesterman Family Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chesterman Family Don't worry about being finished. After flying my 701 for 6 yrs and 220 hrs mine is still not finished. dave c 701 really matter to me anymore. The important thing is the journey now.(sounds corny) I am almost afraid to finish because I think I will miss the process. Oh well, I guess their will be another plane to build. Right, Carlos in Mexico! > > jack ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:41 PM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: One more "first-timer" suggestion -- --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Get a really GOOD pair of shoes. The kind that train easily, because as you walk 'round and 'round your work table pondering the improbable you don't need to waste good brain cell capacity directing your feet to move in a given direction. Get shoes that know where to walk with minimal coaching, because you WILL devote an appreciable amount of your time walking 'round and 'round and 'round.........etc, until some small detail jumps out to grab you. At this point these good shoes need to automatically propel you to the beer cooler to celebrate another conquest of the instructions and drawings! As others have so aptly suggested, tools, tools and more tools will be one of your best investments. ZAC photo guides are extremely helpful. And lastly, this List-Of-Last-Resort will get you the Right Stuff (with some leg-pulling thrown in). I think someone even mentioned the famous "Brass Spheres" as being required. Welcome ! Zed Smith/701/R912/90% do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:22 PM PST US From: "Dan Sherburn" Subject: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" Hi, I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost of ownership got too expensive. I've started to research the Homebuilt industry and am fairly excited by what I see, especially within the Zenith offering. I would love the prospect of building and being able to design the panel and interior of my airplane. Being able to do my own maintenance would be a big plus, as I love doing those things. The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended engines. The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the Rotax 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, etc. Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 figure, I may have to consider an old C150. Great list....thanks in advance for the information and opinions! Dan Sherburn Spring Lake, MI ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended > engines. The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the > Rotax 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, > etc. Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? Ok, I'll be the first to ring in on this one....check out the possibility of the Corvair conversion. Should cost you less than $5K for everything firewall forward, assuming you can work on engines. In fact, if my guess is correct a FWF offering probably isn't that far off in the future. Check out http://www.corvaircraft.com/ where you can, among other things, join the corvair email list (lots of good folks there). There's also a link somewhere to William Wynne's site. Assuming you don't want to tinker with engines, then you're left with spending lots more bucks. In fact, I was settled on the jabiru 3300 ($15K+ for everything), but ultimately decided that the $10K+ of savings was worth giving the Corvair a shot. There are lots of good choices (which I suppose is one of the benefits of the 601) ranging from auto conversions to fully certified aircraft engines -- it just depends on your budget. Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:07 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > > Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything > unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 > figure, I may have to consider an old C150. > Dan, Don't give in to dispare. There are lots of alternatives to the new engines. Someone in our chapter always seems to have an engine, either Continental 75, 85 or 0-200 on the block. They don't need to be new, just servicable. I'm using a Subaru EA-81 because I like water cooled engines, but there are used Rotax 912s and Jabarus, all in easier reach than the $15000 you mention. The C-150 will have ADs and costs that are much higher in the long run than one of the Zenith types so hang in there. Try a Google search or eBay and check in with your local EAA Chapter to let them know what you're trying to find. Help is out there. Good luck Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:12 PM PST US From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" There are many auto conversion engines that are much cheaper. Many on the list are converting and rebuilding their own Corvair based engines, which is what I'm doing. Direct drive, 100 h.p., air cooled. Check out http://www.flycorvair.com/ http://corvaircraft.com/ The final costs of the finished project depends on your choice of engine and avionics. If you want to trade cost for time, you could build all or parts of the plane from plans. Once you get started the building is a lot of fun. Phil Maxson 601XL/Corvair Fuselage 90%, Starting Engine rebuild >From: "Dan Sherburn" >Subject: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? >Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:35:05 -0500 > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > >Hi, >I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private >pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost >of ownership got too expensive. > >Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want >anything >unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 >figure, I may have to consider an old C150. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:11 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Dan: Do be discouraged but I will be between $35-40k with the complete kit and options and Jabiru engine, paint and uph. Some of the smarter guys on this list can show your how to do it less expensive. You could build from scratch, use auto engines, or get a partner. Jack Russell do not archive Dan Sherburn wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" Hi, I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost of ownership got too expensive. I've started to research the Homebuilt industry and am fairly excited by what I see, especially within the Zenith offering. I would love the prospect of building and being able to design the panel and interior of my airplane. Being able to do my own maintenance would be a big plus, as I love doing those things. The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended engines. The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the Rotax 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, etc. Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 figure, I may have to consider an old C150. Great list....thanks in advance for the information and opinions! Dan Sherburn Spring Lake, MI ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:01 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland Dan, There are as many engine options as there are engines. I have a Stratus Suburu about $8K. If necessary parts can be bought at Auto Zone( I know they sell the same fuel pump that came with my engine). I think as you pointed out the big savings is not in acquiring an airplane, but keeping it. I too owned a certified airplane with a couple of others fellows, and the cost of upkeep can make you broke. Tim Shankland Dan Sherburn wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > >Hi, >I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private >pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost >of ownership got too expensive. > >I've started to research the Homebuilt industry and am fairly excited >by what I see, especially within the Zenith offering. I would love the >prospect of building and being able to design the panel and interior of >my airplane. Being able to do my own maintenance would be a big >plus, as I love doing those things. > >The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended engines. >The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the Rotax >912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, etc. >Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything >unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 >figure, I may have to consider an old C150. > >Great list....thanks in advance for the information and opinions! > >Dan Sherburn >Spring Lake, MI > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:35 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Dan: Do be discouraged but I will be between $35-40k Sorry Dan this should have read Don't be discouraged. Funny that a couple of letters can change your whole point. jack do not archive Dan Sherburn wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" Hi, I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost of ownership got too expensive. I've started to research the Homebuilt industry and am fairly excited by what I see, especially within the Zenith offering. I would love the prospect of building and being able to design the panel and interior of my airplane. Being able to do my own maintenance would be a big plus, as I love doing those things. The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended engines. The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the Rotax 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, etc. Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 figure, I may have to consider an old C150. Great list....thanks in advance for the information and opinions! Dan Sherburn Spring Lake, MI ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:04 PM PST US From: MXSportPilot@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: MXSportPilot@aol.com In a message dated 1/23/2004 12:36:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, clojan@sbcglobal.net writes: > Well, the 500 mark has come and gone and it doesn't really matter to me > anymore. The important thing is the journey now.(sounds corny) I am almost > afraid to finish because I think I will miss the process. Oh well, I guess their > will be another plane to build. Right, Carlos in Mexico! > > jack > Howdy ya'all, talked to an older gentleman selling his 701 cause he lost his medical the other day...Would you believe he missed building more than giving up his airplane! Well maybe not that much, but he sure did miss the hell out of building! Hey, when you finish your Zenith and you need to build take a look at the Hummelbird designs...like the UltraCrusier Plus! That will be my 2nd! And my third! His and hers when we don't want to fly two up! Thats my dream anyway! Grin... ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:46 PM PST US From: "ronnie wehba" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? required 5, BAYES_00) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" What are you putting the sub on? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > > > > Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want > anything > > unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the > $30,000 > > figure, I may have to consider an old C150. > > > > Dan, > Don't give in to dispare. There are lots of alternatives to the new > engines. > Someone in our chapter always seems to have an engine, either > Continental 75, 85 or 0-200 on the block. They don't need to be new, > just servicable. I'm using a Subaru EA-81 because I like water cooled > engines, but there are used Rotax 912s and Jabarus, all in easier reach than > the $15000 you mention. The C-150 will have ADs and costs that are much > higher in the long run than one of the Zenith types so hang in there. > Try a Google search or eBay and check in with your local EAA Chapter > to let them know what you're trying to find. Help is out there. > > Good luck > Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:50 PM PST US From: "Dan Sherburn" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" Thanks to all the replies...I've been looking at the Corvair site. It even has a used engine for sale! I'll keep scouring the web. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Maxson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" > > There are many auto conversion engines that are much cheaper. Many on the > list are converting and rebuilding their own Corvair based engines, which is > what I'm doing. Direct drive, 100 h.p., air cooled. Check out > > http://www.flycorvair.com/ > http://corvaircraft.com/ > > The final costs of the finished project depends on your choice of engine and > avionics. If you want to trade cost for time, you could build all or parts > of the plane from plans. Once you get started the building is a lot of fun. > > Phil Maxson > 601XL/Corvair > Fuselage 90%, Starting Engine rebuild > > >From: "Dan Sherburn" > >Subject: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? > >Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:35:05 -0500 > > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > > > >Hi, > >I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private > >pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost > >of ownership got too expensive. > > > >Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want > >anything > >unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 > >figure, I may have to consider an old C150. > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:26 PM PST US From: Daniel Vandenberg Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Daniel Vandenberg Dan... You may know this but...depending on which Zenith model you are considering, there may be affordable auto-engine conversion alternatives available that significantly reduce the projected expense. For the 601, for example, consider the Corvair auto conversion...there are several 601 builders in a fairly advanced stage of this installation, including William Wynne, who is sort of the guru of this particular engine-conversion for experimental aviation applications. If you are considering the 601, peruse this site carefully as one alternative to an expensive Rotax or Jabiru or Lycoming: http://www.flycorvair.com/ Dan Vandenberg in Chicago...frequently in western Mich too Dan Sherburn wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" Hi, I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost of ownership got too expensive. I've started to research the Homebuilt industry and am fairly excited by what I see, especially within the Zenith offering. I would love the prospect of building and being able to design the panel and interior of my airplane. Being able to do my own maintenance would be a big plus, as I love doing those things. The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended engines. The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the Rotax 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, etc. Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 figure, I may have to consider an old C150. Great list....thanks in advance for the information and opinions! Dan Sherburn Spring Lake, MI --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:16 PM PST US From: Robert Hillebrand Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Robert Hillebrand Don't get started with building a kit unless you have that much money set aside for engine and instrument panel wizard-24@juno.com wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > TheAny only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended > engines. The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the > Rotax 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, > etc. Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? Ok, I'll be the first to ring in on this one....check out the possibility of the Corvair conversion. Should cost you less than $5K for everything firewall forward, assuming you can work on engines. In fact, if my guess is correct a FWF offering probably isn't that far off in the future. Check out http://www.corvaircraft.com/ where you can, among other things, join the corvair email list (lots of good folks there). There's also a link somewhere to William Wynne's site. Assuming you don't want to tinker with engines, then you're left with spending lots more bucks. In fact, I was settled on the jabiru 3300 ($15K+ for everything), but ultimately decided that the $10K+ of savings was worth giving the Corvair a shot. There are lots of good choices (which I suppose is one of the benefits of the 601) ranging from auto conversions to fully certified aircraft engines -- it just depends on your budget. Mike Fortunato 601XL --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:13 PM PST US From: "Kevin W Bonds" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kevin W Bonds" Dan I'm considering the Corvair. Alot of guys are using them in the zodies. William Winn "The Corvair Authority" himself is building an XL as a demo platform for his Corvair conversion. Kevin Bonds Nashville Tn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Sherburn" Subject: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > > Hi, > I just joined the list and the EAA. I'm an instrument rated private > pilot, but haven't flown in 9 years. I got out of the sport as the cost > of ownership got too expensive. > > I've started to research the Homebuilt industry and am fairly excited > by what I see, especially within the Zenith offering. I would love the > prospect of building and being able to design the panel and interior of > my airplane. Being able to do my own maintenance would be a big > plus, as I love doing those things. > > The only thing I'm worried about, is the cost of recommended engines. > The information kit I received from Zenith had pricing info. on the Rotax > 912 motor. I think it was almost $15,000 with accesories, motor, etc. > Is this the norm? Are there any lower cost alternatives? I don't want anything > unreliable, but if I total the kit price and motor are close to the $30,000 > figure, I may have to consider an old C150. > > Great list....thanks in advance for the information and opinions! > > Dan Sherburn > Spring Lake, MI > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:25 PM PST US From: "Brett Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Prospect and Engine ? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" Just pick a motor and go with it. One of the reasons I picked the 601 was because it seemed like no matter what you put in front it, it will still fly. And it flys good. Besides I always want to do things different. -- Thanks Brett Ray owner Hog Air ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:23 PM PST US From: Robin Gould Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Timer Question --> Zenith-List message posted by: Robin Gould Mick, I also suggest your table top over hang the bottom frame by 1.5 to 2 inches or so, to allow for a edge to clamp from ("C" clamps, spring clamps, etc.) very handy. Also might consider 2 sets of cleco pliers, one for each side of the work table (it seems like every time you want to use your cleco pliers, you have left them, in a unreachable spot, on the other side of the 12 foot table!) ;-) > >7. make yourself a nice LEVEL table 4'X12' is the size I recommend- I also >suggest putting onto it some hashmarks spaced at 1 inch - take a look at >mine at http://bill.howerton.com/zodiac/zodiac_main.htm > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mick" >To: >Subject: Zenith-List: First Timer Question > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mick >> >>I'm about to start ordering sections and tools to start building an XL. >> >Any tips before I start? >