Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:42 AM - Re: Carbs on a 912S popping off (Phil & Michele Miller)
2. 01:51 AM - Re: Engines: 701 80hp or 100hp ???? (Phil & Michele Miller)
3. 03:29 AM - Primer question - simple solution ()
4. 04:47 AM - Re: Engines: 701 80hp or 100hp ???? (Benford2@aol.com)
5. 05:01 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (Beckman, Rick)
6. 05:37 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
7. 06:08 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (Larry McFarland)
8. 07:23 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 01/26/04 (John M. Goodings)
9. 07:51 AM - Re: Re: 701 80 or 100 HP? (Chuck Deiterich)
10. 07:59 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (David Barth)
11. 08:32 AM - Re: Primer question - simple solution (Leo J. Corbalis)
12. 08:33 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (Rick Pitcher)
13. 08:36 AM - Re: Primer question (Dave Austin)
14. 08:40 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (Rick Pitcher)
15. 10:00 AM - Low Speed - Big Prop... (Bima, Martin)
16. 10:29 AM - Re: Primer question - simple solution ()
17. 10:31 AM - Re: First Flight 601XL (Beckman, Rick)
18. 11:34 AM - Re: Carbs on a 912S popping off (Dave Alberti)
19. 11:41 AM - Carbs Popping off (Lowell Metz)
20. 11:46 AM - Re: VW engines (Jarek M. Walter)
21. 01:26 PM - Re: Carbs Popping off (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
22. 03:43 PM - heavy left wing - some possible solutions (Jeff Small)
23. 05:12 PM - Re: First Flight 601 XL (Chris Weber)
24. 05:17 PM - Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions (The Meiste's)
25. 05:33 PM - Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions (Don Walker)
26. 06:34 PM - Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
27. 06:38 PM - Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions (The Meiste's)
28. 09:56 PM - Re: First Flight 601XL (barry mayne)
29. 10:41 PM - Upholstery recommendations likes and dislikes (Bill Howerton)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Carbs on a 912S popping off |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Lowell,
Refer my recent post on 80hp vs: 100hp. The higher compression of the
912S makes it very harsh in startup and shutdown. I strongly recommend
the use of the Rotax factory airbox which effectively ties the two carbs
together and supports them back to the engine.
Dave Alberti mentioned that he has braced his airbox back to the
firewall - this sounds like a recipe for disaster as the engine moves
independently of the airframe on its rubber mounts.
Cheers,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
701/912S
Original Message
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz"
--> <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
List,
I've spent the morning tuning in the correct pitch of my Warp
Drive three blade prop to my 912S. I have a problem I hope some of can
answer. Five different times the carbs popped out of the rubber boot.
I had attended a seminar where Phil Lockwood made special note of
insuring the clamp ring on the boot must not be tightened more than 7mm
distance between the two flanges on the clamp. I made a special little
tool 7mm wide just for the purpose of getting the gap right. I've
cleaned the carb neck and the boot ID real well and everything seems
great but sometimes the carb pops out on start-up and sometimes it pops
out when I shut the engine down.
What have others done?
Lowell Metz
Venice
Message 2
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| Subject: | Engines: 701 80hp or 100hp ???? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller" <millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Ben,
I should mention that I also had a problem of hard starting on my 912S.
From what I understand from others, this is not too uncommon. The
harshness of the 912S on startup and shutdown was causing movement in
the horizontal stab mounts. I grounded my plane voluntarily when I found
a crack in the front, left stab mount. When I emailed ZAC about a fix
they didn't comment on the cause of the cracking, only on the fix I was
proposing.
By the way, I also found a crack in one of the engine mount tubes.
Cheers,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
701 912S
-----Original Message-----
Please tell us more about these cracked mounting brackets. This is
rather
troublesome to understand how a higher compression engine could do that.
What did
Cris Heinz say about those cracked mounts?
Ben Haas N801BH.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Primer question - simple solution |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ext Mick
> Sent: 28 January, 2004 04:15
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: Primer question
> Zenith-List message posted by: Mick <mickrobertss@yahoo.com>
> How many clean and prime each piece before assembly? Is this necessary?
Mick, after studying the subject for some time I have adopted a super
simple approach even if I am building a floatplane that is to be used
in sea-water. It is based on the following assumptions.
(1) Using 6061-T6 aluminum is in itself almost good enough protection
(2) Cortec doesnt really need a clean surface for effective protection
(3) Some lightly sprayed Zink Cromate gives extra internal protection
No primer at all is applied on the outside of the plane, this will
be left to the professional painters applying topcoat.
Note that I always carefully clean mating (faying) surfaces, first with
a degreaser and then continuing with abrasive pads and water until the
surface is really clean and then just doing one additional solvent swipe
before applying the primer. This ralatively fast process will guarantee
that the Cortec 373 primer sticks well and cannot be scratched off.
Other internal surfaces are cleaned too, but not always so perfectly
and are very lightly coated with Cortec mixed with a suitable amount of
denaturated ethyl alcohol in order to make it flow out nicely. Later some
ZnCr primer is sprayed into dark corners just before closing the skins.
The advantage with Cortec is that it isnt toxic and doesnt fume but still
gives exellent protection for something like ten years. The advantage with
ZnCr is that it gives some remote protection, up to one inch. Steel parts
will get a better primer treatment and I also plan to use the classic
linseed oil inside all tubing.
I admit that my process is not the best priming method, rather a quick
and dirty solution, but it does the job without too much hassle.
regards
Max
701 builder in Helsinki
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engines: 701 80hp or 100hp ???? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:52:12 AM Mountain Standard Time,
millerpg@ps.gen.nz writes:
> Ben,
>
> I should mention that I also had a problem of hard starting on my 912S.
> From what I understand from others, this is not too uncommon. The
> harshness of the 912S on startup and shutdown was causing movement in
> the horizontal stab mounts. I grounded my plane voluntarily when I found
> a crack in the front, left stab mount. When I emailed ZAC about a fix
> they didn't comment on the cause of the cracking, only on the fix I was
> proposing.
>
> By the way, I also found a crack in one of the engine mount tubes.
>
> Cheers,
> Phil Miller
> New Zealand
The reason I asked about the cracked stab mount bracket is because a 801 in
California disintergrated in mid air last spring. Now these plane fly at 115
mph so all of us 801 builders are amazed that the wreckage was scattered over a
""2 MILE"" path. Whatever happened was a major failure. I did spaek to Chris,
Nick and Roger at Sun & Fun last year and they were tight lipped. Told me not
to worry... Ya right. What really has me concerned is in all the literature I
have from before I bought my kit it stated that the 801 was designed around
all different powerplants and the max firewall forward weight of the powerplant
is 440 lbs. Even on the 801 page they showed Lyc, LOM, Franklin, and auto
engine conversions as being acceptable. Well now the 801 page has beem modified
and it states only a 180 hp lyc is recommended. This is after I have I installed
my Ford all aluminum V-8 in mine. I am under the 440 limit and have detuned
it to make about 1/4 the horsepower it is capable of. They now have altered the
stated max weight to 400 lbs. It really looks like they know something and
are covering their ass. The NTSB has not released the final report on the
inflight breakup but most of us 801 builders who have chatted think the senerio
is
as follows. The guy was probably hot doggin the plane a little, the horizontal
stab broke off for whatever reason, that took out the rudder, that puts the
plane in a severe nose down attitude, this broke off both wings in a negative G
loading. Keep in mind this all happened in less then a second because the
tail feathers and both wings were found within a 200 foot area. The fuselage
without feathers attached proceded on like a dart for the other 1.9 miles. If
these brackets were the weak point I sure as hell want to know NOW!! Not when
ZAC
feels ready to tell us. Don't get me wrong, Nick, Roger and the crew have
been great during my build and helped me whenever I asked a question. It's the
way they are handling this failure that has me loosing sleep. Can you decribe
the cracks in these brackets in detail for us. Were they in compression,
tension, side load ????? Pictures would be even better. Thanks for the time you
spend enlighting us in advance.
Ben Haas N801BH Jackson Hole Wy. USA
Message 5
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| Subject: | First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" <Rick.Beckman@atk.com>
This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
powered by a Jabiru 3300. All went well, though I have a significantly
heavy left wing to troubleshoot. Thanks to the help many of you on the
list have given--and you haven't even known--the archives are
invaluable.
Weston and Judy !! Congratulations!!!! Must be a marvelous
feeling!!
Please keep us builders informed as to why you have
a
heavy wing. I might be needing this info in about a
year,
and there are probably some that might need it even
sooner.
Again, Congratulations!!
Rick
Beckman XL
Do Not Archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@comcast.net>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300.
Weston
++++ Absolutely Wonderful News!
Congratulatiions!
Fred Hulen
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight 601XL
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker"
<westonjudy@earthlink.net>
>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300. >
> Weston Walker
>
Congratulations Weston,
The first flight has got to be a really satisfying event.
You've a really nice looking plane there.
Fly safe.
Larry McFarland
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 01/26/04 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" <goodings@yorku.ca>
Bill Morelli:
I also would appreciate a copy of the plans for the control stick boot.
Thanks. Do not archive.
John Goodings. <goodings@yorku.ca>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 701 80 or 100 HP? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
I have a Jabiru 2200 (80hp) on my 701. I have a PrinceP-Tip 64" prop. The
P-tips are like the droops on the Cessna 150 wing which reduce wing tip loss
of lift. The P-tip essentially adds 2+ inches to the diameter giving me
effectively a 66 " prop. This is close to the diameter a Rotax 912 uses. I
have flown ZAC's 701 with the 912 (80hp) on it and can't tell the
difference, but to be fair I have only flown mine solo. There is a point
where adding power and weight reaches diminishing returns. The 125 pound
Jabiru vs the heavier 912 is probably a push even though the prop RPM is
higher and the prop a little shorter.
Chuck D.
N701TX
----- Original Message -----
From: Leo J. Corbalis <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 701 80 or 100 HP?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis"
<leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> > And Leo, why does it matter what prop/rpm you have for slow flight?
> >
> > > Flying SLOW in a 701 calls for a BIG prop, turning slower.
>
> The prop efficiency depends on moving the most air as slowly as possible
to
> the rear. 3300 rpm requires a smaller prop to avoid Mach 1 scream, causing
> excessive drag and excessive anti airport agitation. Actually you don't
need
> to go all the way to Mach 1 as the air going the long way around the
airfoil
> shaped blade gets there at about .85 M. A slower turning prop, that's why
> PSRUs are so popular, matches the prop to the airplane by moving more air
at
> a slower speed. Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, visit your airport
shoppe,
> has more than we want to know about it. I'm a retired USAF pilot but am
> willing to recognize good work by our allies (U.S. NAVY)
>
> Leo
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Contratulations Weston. She is a real beauty. Please
keep us informed as you discover her quirks if any.
Very inspiring news.
David
do not archive
--- Weston and Judy Walker <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy
> Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first
> flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300. All went well, though I
> have a significantly
> heavy left wing to troubleshoot. Thanks to the help
> many of you on the
> list have given--and you haven't even known--the
> archives are
> invaluable.
>
>
> A picture is available at
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/Weston/
>
>
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder
Making Spars. Wing ribs all done. Scratchin Head on the fuel tanks.
Elevator waiting for skins. Stab,Flaps,Ailerons and Rudder ready for inspection.
__________________________________
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Primer question - simple solution |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
> No primer at all is applied on the outside of the plane, this will
> be left to the professional painters applying topcoat.
>
May I suggest ZnCr on the outside along all the rivet lines so that there is
primer under the rivet heads. The rivets are a differient alloy. I learned
to fly in seaplanes and saw just how sneaky corrosion can get!
Leo Corbalis
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
Beckman, Rick wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" <Rick.Beckman@atk.com>
>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300. All went well, though I have a significantly
> heavy left wing to troubleshoot. Thanks to the help many of you on the
> list have given--and you haven't even known--the archives are
> invaluable.
Congratulations Rick! It's gotta be a thrill :)
Mine's still sitting in the hangar waiting for the pilot to get up to
date. She'll probably get bugs on her leading edge in the next few weeks
though. <fingers crossed>
Rick P.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Primer question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Don't forget to dip each rivet in zinc chromate as you insert it. The rivet
should be pulled before the chromate dries.
They do that at DeHavilland A/C
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
Ooopps... I meant Congratulations *Weston* .
Rick P.
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Low Speed - Big Prop... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca>
It was described to me like this...
At low speed the air is moving slowly and you need to take a big bite of
air. The Herc has ginormous props and 5000hp behind each one. It takes off
very short at low speed. It cruises at low speed.
At high speed those huge props are now spinning at an ridiculous rate, so
you will have to shorten them because now you are power limited. A Lear 45
has very small diameter "props" because it can spin them at very high
speeds. It has a very high speed cruise, but takes a mile and a half to
take off.
OK these are two extreme examples.
A 701 - a low speed aircraft - needs the big prop to take that big bite of
air.
A KR - at about the same horsepower - needs a small prop to achieve the high
speed cruise.
So, what size prop for my 701? I don't know yet...but somewhere between 56"
and 96".
Martin Bima
Winnipeg, Canada
STOL-Vair - plans-built
15% complete
Have wing spars cleco'd. Actually made one right and one left and checking
a hundred times.
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2651.75">
Low Speed - Big Prop...
It was described to me like this...
At low speed the air is moving slowly and you need to take a big bite of air. The
Herc has ginormous props and 5000hp behind each one. It takes off very short
at low speed. It cruises at low speed.
At high speed those huge props are now spinning at an ridiculous rate, so you will
have to shorten them because now you are power limited. A Lear 45 has very
small diameter props because it can spin them at very high speeds. It has a very
high speed cruise, but takes a mile and a half to take off.
OK these are two extreme examples.
A 701 - a low speed aircraft - needs the big prop to take that big bite of air.
A KR - at about the same horsepower - needs a small prop to achieve the high speed
cruise.
So, what size prop for my 701? I don't know yet...but somewhere between 56 and
96.
Martin Bima
Winnipeg, Canada
STOL-Vair - plans-built
15% complete
Have wing spars cleco'd. Actually made one right and one left and checking a hundred
times.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Primer question - simple solution |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
RE
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis"
> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
> > No primer at all is applied on the outside of the plane, this
> > will be left to the professional painters applying topcoat.
>
> May I suggest ZnCr on the outside along all the rivet lines
> so that there is primer under the rivet heads. The rivets
> are a different alloy. I learned to fly in seaplanes and
> saw just how sneaky corrosion can get!
>
> Leo Corbalis
Thanks Leo for reminding about this. To keep the appearance shiny until
painting I have not applied outside corrosion protection along rivet lines,
but just dipped each rivet individually in a ZnCr cup when riveting.
This together with the primer applied for the top cooat will hopefully
be enough. The water is not so salty in the Baltic.
Rgrds, Max
Message 17
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| Subject: | First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" <Rick.Beckman@ATK.COM>
Beckman, Rick wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Beckman, Rick" <Rick.Beckman@atk.com>
>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300. All went well, though I have a significantly
> heavy left wing to troubleshoot. Thanks to the help many of you on the
> list have given--and you haven't even known--the archives are
> invaluable.
Sorry Gents,
Somehow this post came up with my name on
it. A
problem of transposition, perhaps!. I can only wish,
at
this point in time, that my Bird be airworthy.
However,
the credit for first flight belongs to Weston
Walker,
not Rick Beckman. Again, Congratulations to Weston
and
Judy, in Texas, NOT to Rick in Missery, I mean,
Missouri!!
God
Bless!!
Rick
Message 18
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| Subject: | Carbs on a 912S popping off |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
The rotax airbox is designed with a rubber mount to support the airbox.
It's located in the middle of the airbox so the engine can shake away with
no influence to the connection at the firewall. Maybe the mount will fail
with time but Rotax recommends replacing all rubber components every four
years anyway.
Dave
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil & Michele Miller"
<millerpg@ps.gen.nz>
Lowell,
Dave Alberti mentioned that he has braced his airbox back to the
firewall - this sounds like a recipe for disaster as the engine moves
independently of the airframe on its rubber mounts.
Cheers,
Phil Miller
New Zealand
701/912S
Message 19
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| Subject: | Carbs Popping off |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lowell Metz" <lowellmetz@earthlink.net>
List,
Thanks to Shay King's suggestion I think I have got a fix that will keep the
carbs from leaving their sockets.
After 4 different methods using ties I found that taking two ties and crossing
them from intake manifold flange to carb flange ( such as it is ) in an X
pattern and tightening them they seem to stay put. I did several start-ups and
shut downs , one start up being a rather sharp snap, nothing moved. By the
way, safety wire the top springs that go to the cross over tube. I lost one
and they are just shy of $9.00 plus shipping.
One more thing I did was to clean the rubber boots well and wiped some fan
belt dressing on the inside . It is not a gooey glue but adds " grab" to the
rubber. It may or may not help but thought I would try it.
Before I fly I am going to do several more cycles of start-up and shut down
to test things out . I assume I will need both carbs in place for a successful
flight :-)
Lowell Metz
701 / 912S
Venice, FL.
Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jarek M. Walter" <jarek.walter@sympatico.ca>
Please find below two links to interesting (at least I found it
interesting) information regarding VW engine and autoconversion
engines.
Jarek M. Walter
http://www.sdsefi.com/air7.html
http://users.lmi.net/~ryoung/Sonerai/Engines.html
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Carbs Popping off |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 1/28/04 2:42:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lowellmetz@earthlink.net writes:
> Before I fly I am going to do several more cycles of start-up and shut down
> to test things out . I assume I will need both carbs in place for a
>
Get this sorted out so you can be at X-49 (South Lakeland) this Saturday
for the fly-in.
do not archive
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL
My Home Page
http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
Message 22
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| Subject: | heavy left wing - some possible solutions |
Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:45:06 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
> All went well, though I have a significantly
> heavy left wing to troubleshoot.
Congratulations Wes, a very nice bird that will provide you a lifetime of enjoyment.
About twenty seconds into the maiden flight of 22Tango, and maybe 200 feet off
the runway, my right thumb was frantically pushing the aileron trim button for
all the right trim possible. A quick glance out the canopy (amazing what one
can do as far as dividing attention during high stress situations) showed the
tab at full deflection. Relaxing the death grip on the yoke revealed that although
not remedied, the problem was lessened to a degree that would allow the
rest of the first flight test parameters to be completed.
The LE tanks had both been filled equally for that flight, with five gallons in
each and six in the header. On the subsequent flight fuel was transferred from
the left tank to the header (leaving left tank basically empty) and the right
tank was filled. With this lateral balance change the a/c flew its second
flight smoothly, even allowing for the full trim of the aileron tab to be backed
off to about half of what had been set in. When further testing along AC90-89
progressed, 120 pounds was belted into the right seat in the form of three
bags of water conditioner salt topped with a resplendent photo of nattily attired
builder buddy, Fred Hulen. (Fred was a bit 'greener' when we landed however,
and had been quite talkative until we started a series of stalls.) The addition
of my 'passenger' further allowed a centering of the trim and the use
of the fuel capacity of the left tank. The flight to SnF was made with all three
tanks full, heavier baggage in the right wing locker but both lockers fully
stuffed, baggage area behind seats loaded to about thirty-five pounds, and wife
in right seat (105 pounds - yes dear, I did as instructed, you can put down
the shotgun). A full 1200 pounds.
Those who will be doing test flights - this is NOT a recommendation that you rig
or trim the a/c on the ground anticipating a heavy left wing. Fill both tanks
equally and center your aileron trim. Just be ready to reach for that handy
button atop the stick if it's needed. (More on that handy button later.) The
best measure you can take to assure preparedness for any out-of-trim situation
is to fly the flight untold number of times before; fly it in your mind while
seated in the a/c. Reach for switches, look outside, make radio calls, etc.
Literally do everything you can and prep yourself for going to 'Plan B.'
Reading the archives on first flights will reveal a large proportion of builders
found the same thing Wes did. Your butt in the left seat can affect the lateral
balance to the degree that when you finally begin to try 'hands off' you'll
find the a/c wants to enter a roll to the left. As Zodie Rockets tend to be
neutral in roll stability (at least mine is when in cruise trim and at 1050
to 1150 pounds) you won't be able to just nudge the stick right and continue straight
without applying some constant pressure to the yoke. With the pitch sensitive
(but very positive pitch stability) of the 601, flying a smooth attitude
for the first flight can be tiring.
There are those who report no problems in having a heavy wing and my hat is off
to them. Some have reported a heavy right wing and to my thinking something
is amiss in rigging; perhaps the twist in the aileron for HDS models, the trailing
edges areas past the ailerons in the HD, or the wing fairing areas that tie
into the fuselage.
Some suggestions: (just one guy's opinions worth what you paid)
If building - put all the stuff like landing light, pitot tube, aileron trim, anything
with weight, out in the right wing. Install aileron trim, you will eventually
so do it now. Put your ELT and autopilot servo (if installing one) on
the right side of the fuse behind seats. Likewise, plan your battery installation
for the right side of the a/c. Build straight, check often.
If flying - the assumptions here are that you want to use the full capacity of
both wing tanks: carry your tools, quart of oil, tiedowns, canopy cover, mother-in-law,
etc. in the right locker. If you don't have aileron trim, install one.
Installation of the early type that extended from the rear of the trailing
edge is easier if it fits your aesthetic sensibilities. If you want recessed
- go to it! Get in the habit of checking the 'ball' and keep it centered.
Install fixed trim tab. Before I made the next change I contacted Chris and he
sent me one of the famous Chris Heintz drawings that were once described by someone
on the list long ago as being drawn by "...toenail dipped in ink." The
very same idea only presented a bit differently, is at the bottom of page 2 of
issue #133 of the Zenair Newsletter. I call it a 'fletchette' but don't know
where the term originated or if it's even correct.
A piece of .025 or .032 about 70mm by 320mm is used with the 70mm side having a
flange of 20mm and a tab of 50mm. The newsletter drawing shows a closed back
side (marked 20mm) but that isn't necessary nor was it on Chris' drawing to me.
Bend the tab so that it makes a 23 degree angle and attach to the underside
of the right aileron. It makes no difference how far out you place it as it
does not 'roll' the a/c, it imparts an upward force on the aileron which in turn
lowers the right wing. This tab remains somewhat hidden and is easier on
the eye than the tab riveted onto the trailing edge. This change/addition was
so efficient that I was able to fly solo with both tanks filled equally and with
only slight right trim in the electric tab. I usually transfer fuel from
the left tank first so often the recreational 'tour around the valley' is done
with the thing centered. Fred uses such a tab and will tune in on this with
his comments.
Fred's tech counselor, a very savvy individual who has forgotten more about aviation
than I'll ever know, suggested a weight in the right tip. Logic being that
the long arm of the wing and a minimum amount of weight would do the trick
without the drag of a fixed tab. Though loath to add weight, I would have gone
to that had not the next mod done the trick.
The next change was the most effective of all. This will work only for HD/HDS
models. I removed the AN4 bolt that secures the rear Z of the wing to the attachment
plate which extends from the center section. With Dremel and carbide
bit the hole for the bolt was elongated so that the rear of the left wing could
be lowered slightly. The change would seem to be about .030 when gauged by
observing the step-down between the wing and the center section at the area under
the rear of the wing splice strip and comparing to what it had been previously.
For those of you highly concerned with safety issues: I did not run this
by the designer and yes, that connection now relies more on compression than
shear. I am comfortable with it. In fact the structure is so strongly designed
that it takes a second person pushing downward on the rear of the wing while
the AN4 is tightened. This little change makes a world of difference and
the fixed trim tab may(?) now be expendable. Checking the 'step-down' is a part
of pre-flight as I run my finger over it each time.
Dropping or raising one aileron in relation to the other will do nothing other
than affect the stall speed (so be careful if ever you adjust them up). All that
will happen is that the yoke will center itself in a slightly different location.
The Handy Little Button
Discussion recently about where to put the trim switches ended up with some favoring
them above the throttle knob. Highly opinionated discourse coming up!
You were taught to always keep your hand on the throttle while in the pattern
and your eyes outside. How do you do this with the elevator switch somewhere
on the panel or console? With the MAC (now Ray Allen) buttons atop the grip,
you instinctively tap a few bumps of up trim while on base; tap in a few more
on short final; are instantly ready to remove a bit if a go-around is necessary.
Same for the aileron trim. If fuel burn begins to introduce a slight turn
to one side, the thumb just moves up and taps you level. I'll bet that other
builders flying with me never notice when I make trim changes. I'm certain there
are builders who have quickly adapted to switches on the panel but with them
on the stick you never have to take a hand off another control. You do not
fly the Rocket with your palm atop the stick so inadvertently bumping trims
has never been a problem. The usual cruise position for your hand will be with
thumb and forefinger on either side of the yoke at the bottom of the Y, it takes
that little input. I sometimes cruise with my wrist in the Y and fingers
ready to tune radio or transponder. Hand on left side of Y for maneuvering,
radio calls, pattern work, and making steep rolls into strafing runs on Pennsylvania
outhouses.
tailwinds jeff HDS/3300 150+ hours
Message 23
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| Subject: | re: First Flight 601 XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Weber" <chrisoz@gmx.net>
> Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight 601XL
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker"
<westonjudy@earthlink.net>
>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300. All went well, though I have a significantly
> heavy left wing to troubleshoot. Thanks to the help many of you on the
> list have given--and you haven't even known--the archives are
> invaluable.
>
> Weston Walker
>
Congratulations Weston!
A great sense of achievement, and well deserved! Good luck with the test
flying,
and many happy landings!
Cheers,
Chris
Do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
> Install fixed trim tab
> A piece of .025 or .032 about 70mm by 320mm is used with the 70mm side
having a flange of 20mm and a tab of 50mm. The newsletter drawing shows a
closed back side (marked 20mm) but that isn't necessary nor was it on Chris'
drawing to me. Bend the tab so that it makes a 23 degree angle and attach
to the underside of the right aileron.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++
Yes that little tab will do wonders! My HD had the same problem & Jeff
kindly suggested I give it a try. My plane has no adjustable aileron trim
tab and I was skeptical at first, but slapping on this fixed tab turned out
perfect so I just left it. By "slapping" it on I literally mean it. All I
did was use thin double sided tape. Not the thick foam stuff, just normal
scotch tape thickness. It's now been on for 1 1/2 years, and it's on so
tight I would have to bend the aileron skin to remove it.
Kelly Meiste
601 HD
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions |
Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:32:46 -0600
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" <D3DW@msn.com>
So, I'm behind in this thread, but where did you put this tab? I have lived with
my little left roll for a long while now with no real problems, but wouldn't
mind an improvement. don HDS 32o hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: The Meiste's
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: heavy left wing - some possible solutions
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
> Install fixed trim tab
> A piece of .025 or .032 about 70mm by 320mm is used with the 70mm side
having a flange of 20mm and a tab of 50mm. The newsletter drawing shows a
closed back side (marked 20mm) but that isn't necessary nor was it on Chris'
drawing to me. Bend the tab so that it makes a 23 degree angle and attach
to the underside of the right aileron.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++
Yes that little tab will do wonders! My HD had the same problem & Jeff
kindly suggested I give it a try. My plane has no adjustable aileron trim
tab and I was skeptical at first, but slapping on this fixed tab turned out
perfect so I just left it. By "slapping" it on I literally mean it. All I
did was use thin double sided tape. Not the thick foam stuff, just normal
scotch tape thickness. It's now been on for 1 1/2 years, and it's on so
tight I would have to bend the aileron skin to remove it.
Kelly Meiste
601 HD
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@comcast.net>
> Jeff Small wrote:
> Fred uses such a tab and will tune in on this with his comments.
>
++ Fred here, tuning in as Jeff suggested. Jeff doesn't post very often,
but when he does, his comments are right-on and valuable. Yep, wish I had a
nickel for every mention in the archives about having a "heavy left wing".
Especially so on the HDS model where the wings are much shorter in length.
Those who have built "straight and true" are often surprised to find the
"heavy wing" syndrome on the first flight. Later on when you take along a
bunch of lead shot or water softener salts like Jeff did during his gross
weight flight tests, you'll likely be surprised to find that the weight in
the right seat has corrected most of it. I think the remaining effect may
be "P" factor torque from the engine, (assuming your engine has a clockwise
prop rotation as seen from the cockpit). If the prop rotates to the right,
the engine counter-torque tends to produce a gentle left roll effect to the
aircraft, thus producing part of the "heavy left wing" syndrome.
I sometimes show friends that I take up for a ride that once the aircraft is
trimmed with the aileron and elevator trim tabs for "hands off level
flight", that you can actually control the plane just by leaning in the
direction you want to go. If you lean to the right, the plane will begin a
slow right turn. Same thing for leaning the left, lean forward to go down,
and lean your head and shoulders back as far as possible and she'll start a
slow climb. You'll see. They are so easy and fun to fly!
Regards to everybody.
Fred
601HDS, Jabiru 3300, 105 hours, and anxious for spring!
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: heavy left wing - some possible solutions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
I'm behind in this thread, but where did you put this tab? I have lived
with my little left roll for a long while now with no real problems, but
wouldn't mind an improvement. don HDS 32o hrs.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Don,
As Jeff suggested, it's not critical were it's located. I placed mine in the
center of the aileron, only thing special I did in the way of positioning
was to place it under one of the ribs for a little extra support.
Kelly
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight 601XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "barry mayne" <bazmay@bigpond.com>
G'day Weston,
Everyone has their own method of overcoming this normal situation of heavy
left wing when flying solo. Jeff is a pretty smart cookie and you may well
heed his advice. I took a totally different approach in that I installed a
small bungee system attached to either side of the control yoke at the very
bottom. This is routed by small cables to a lever on the main spar between
my legs ( no puns on that please ). The lever changes side tension on the
yoke which cancels out the "heavy" side effect. I mainly only use a few of
the indentations the lever clicks into, centre for two up, left position for
solo or several others for trimming during flight. Works for me and there
is nothing on the exterior of the airframe. Reading Jeff's thoughts on
positioning the trim buttons for aileron and elevator I agree that atop the
yoke is convenient but I have my elevator just above the vernier throttle
on the left of my panel and can tap it while still having my left hand on
the throttle. The only reason I didn't have it on the yoke was that I was
too lousy to buy the MAC grip ( a bit pricey by the time I have it freighted
down to OZ )
Cheers
Baz Mayne HDS Jabiru 3300
----- Original Message -----
From: "Weston and Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: First Flight 601XL
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker"
<westonjudy@earthlink.net>
>
> This afternoon I successfully completed the first flight of my 601XL
> powered by a Jabiru 3300. All went well, though I have a significantly
> heavy left wing to troubleshoot. Thanks to the help many of you on the
> list have given--and you haven't even known--the archives are
> invaluable.
>
>
> A picture is available at
>
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/Weston/
>
>
> Or at the EAACentennial Homebuilt
>
> http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/Zenith%20Zodiac%20CH%20601%20XL_Wal
> ker.asp#TopOfPage
>
>
> Thanks to the super support from Zenith and from Pete at JabiruUSA.
>
>
> Keep building; your day will come!
>
>
> Weston Walker
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Upholstery recommendations likes and dislikes |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
I am at the point where I'm ready to start the design of the interior. My
father in law, a very talented professional upholsterer, has graciously
agreed to take on the job. He has taken several measurements, pictures, and
made a number of cardboard templates.
So now the question comes up: What do you guys recommend?
I've read postings about velour, leather, marine vinyl and standard
material. I've heard you guys talk about this padding vs. that padding.
this carpet vs. that one; and on and on and on. But usually these
conversations simply discuss the issue in terms of adherence to FAA
regulations.
And yet, no one ever seems to pony up, and give their honest assessment of
what's good, what's bad; what they like, and what they dislike. So I would
appreciate it if you could give any input.
What would you like in your interior?
What features would you like to see, and what would you avoid?
What about materials? Why would you select one over the other? Why would
you avoid one over the other?
And can ANYONE decifer the FARs into something that approximates English as
they pertain to toxicity, smoke production, and flame retardance?
I would especially appreciate hearing from the older guys whose planes are
already in the air, so we can all learn from your experience.
Thanks!
Bill Howerton N714BH
601XL - Corvair
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