---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/02/04: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:06 AM - Re: carbs popping off (Dabusmith@aol.com) 2. 12:24 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle) 3. 05:44 AM - Heavy Wing on 601 with single pilot (charles.long@gm.com) 4. 06:22 AM - Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (caspainhower@aep.com) 5. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (David Barth) 6. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (Rick Pitcher) 7. 09:15 AM - Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 8. 10:03 AM - New member with questions (Peter Mather) 9. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 10. 11:03 AM - What are these parts? (Gig) 11. 11:17 AM - Re: What are these parts? (Michel Therrien) 12. 11:18 AM - New member with questions (Joemotis@aol.com) 13. 11:21 AM - Re: What are these parts? (Carlos Sa) 14. 11:37 AM - Re: What are these parts? (Scott Laughlin) 15. 11:40 AM - Re: New member with questions (caspainhower@aep.com) 16. 11:42 AM - Re: What are these parts? () 17. 12:09 PM - Re: What are these parts? (Bill Cardell) 18. 01:51 PM - Re: What are these parts? (Jack Russell) 19. 03:12 PM - Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (dsherburn) 20. 03:17 PM - Rotax vs. Rotax... (Bima, Martin) 21. 05:02 PM - Great folder for your ZAC blueprints. (Joemotis@aol.com) 22. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (Steelframe AUS) 23. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (Cy Galley) 24. 07:30 PM - Re: Stratus Subaru cooling (The Meiste's) 25. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL (Steelframe AUS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:06:18 AM PST US From: Dabusmith@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Re: carbs popping off --> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com > I bet your criss crossed tie wraps would do the same thing. Let us know if this cures the problem. I don't think those brackets would fit under the top cowl anyway. I also tried reducing the spark plug gap to .022. No help. I didn't understand the bigger starter theory. My starter works great. Dave Smith N701XL ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:23 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] DNA: do not archive --> Zenith-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Lister, Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Heavy Wing on 601 with single pilot From: charles.long@gm.com 9, 2003) at 02/02/2004 08:43:22 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com Seems like this heavy wing issue has been bounced back and forth more than a few times so here's my two cents. I think there's a fairly elegant solution out there that won't require modifying anything & I plan to use it during my first 40 hours of solo flight. Taking a quick look at the plans and scaling the moment arm for the fuel tank vs the pilot, I get a roughly 6:1 difference. So take a 180 lb pilot and divide by 6 to get the weight of fuel in the right tank required to offset this weight. It comes out to 30 pounds or about 5 gallons. So If there's about 10 gallons usable in each leading edge tank, simply fill the left tank 1/2 tank only half full and you should balance out about right. Fly the right tank for the first 1/2 hour, then the left tank for the 2nd 1/2 hour and finally switch back to the right tank for landing or any additional flying. This gives you up to 1 1/2 hours of flying time without any significant imbalance issues. It does take some fuel management dicipline but might as well get in the habit during the first 40 hours before you start taking passengers for long cross country flights. Do not archive Chuck Long N601LE, 90% complete Hanging a Jab3300 this weekend! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL From: caspainhower@aep.com 02/02/2004 09:21:47 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com >I truely see 4 gph with mine. With my Cessna 150, I usually planned for 6.5 gph. >For round numbers, fly 1000 hours burning 2.5 gph more at $2.50/gal and you just >spent $6,250 more in fuel. You won't gain much (if any) speed because the >Cont and Lyc weigh so much more. There is much discussion about the cost of >the Rotax, but I don't see a certified engine being a cost savings. I chose the XL because I wanted to use the 0-235. Based on my experience in a 152 and feedback from XL pilots flying behind one, 5 - 5.5 gph is a realistic rate for cruising at 75% power. Factor in that you can burn autogas and the fuel cost is not an issue. As far as the extra weight, that will affect climb performance some, but not cruise speed. If you want a new engine, the certified engine will definitely cost more. However, used 0-235's are plentiful and a midtime engine sells for ~$6,000. The decision about what engine to use is still more one of personal preference, a certified engine was mine, for x-country flying. Craig S. N 601XS 0-235 lyc. This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:47 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Dan. You might want to take a look at the main landing gear as well. I myself have never put together the main gear from one of the older models of 601 but when I was shopping my choice of models, this was one of the main gripes of HD/HDS builders - the complexity of construction/assembly of the main gear. The spring leaf on the XL is simplicity itself. You might want to get some input from HD/HDS builders on the main gear before making your final decision. It helped on my decision making process. FWIW David --- Dan Sherburn wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Sherburn" > > > Bob, > Thanks a ton....I think your observations about all > the XL parts around > the shop tell me what I kinda suspected. It's really > the way tey're leaning, > which is OK, I liked the simpler wing, higher useful > load, and lower kit > price of the HD. > > Thanks again....and I'll get to Mexico this summer! > > Dan > > ===== David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder Making Spars. Wing ribs all done. Scratchin Head on the fuel tanks. Elevator waiting for skins. Stab,Flaps,Ailerons and Rudder ready for inspection. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:15 AM PST US From: Rick Pitcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Pitcher David Barth wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > Dan. You might want to take a look at the main > landing gear as well. I myself have never put > together the main gear from one of the older models of > 601 but when I was shopping my choice of models, this > was one of the main gripes of HD/HDS builders - the > complexity of construction/assembly of the main gear. > The spring leaf on the XL is simplicity itself. You > might want to get some input from HD/HDS builders on > the main gear before making your final decision. It > helped on my decision making process. > FWIW > David The installation of the HD's main gear isn't that difficult, it's just a tight fit for wrenches and fingers. Not unusual in any aircraft. I found the forward flipping canopy to be the most challenging part of the whole airplane to fabricate and assemble, FAR more difficult than the landing gear. Rick P. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:05 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL Like everything it depends on what you want. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Here is my list of "advantages" HDS...Wings LOOK MUCH better, top speed MAYBE increased but I'm really not so sure in the real world..stall speed increased. XL...Definatly faster but nowhere near ZACs claims (from what I've read)...and I'm sure you lose baggage space. My Wife and I go camping in our HDS and we can cram a whole lot of gear in those wing lockers...One of my mods will be to add another baggage locker in the wing joint sections by making a hingable cover for the joint and a fiberglass seal for the bottom. There is quite a lot of space in there. Frank HDS stratus, Ram heads, 310 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Davidson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" --> > In looking at the 601 info......... My question is, > is the XL the only way to go Dan, I'll see if I can offer a little help here. Of the 4 models of the 601, here are the differences as I see them: The UL version is not usually seen in the US. As I remember, it qualifies as an "Ultralight" outside of the US. I can't remember anyone building one on the list in quite a while. The HD is the same airplane, but with some parts beefed up. It has the constant cord (hershey bar) wings. They are pretty thick and give a little lower stall speed. The HDS has the "speed" wings. These are tapered like a later model Piper Warrior. Speeds (top and bottom) are increased with the HDS wings. Both the HD and the HDS share the same 3 part wing design. The center section is the same on both. Current thinking is that the HDS will probably not meet LSA criteria while the HD might. The XL is marketed as having an easier to build wing and should meet LSA criteria when final. For myself, if starting over now, I'd go with the XL. I suspect others will jump in with additional comments. Jeff Davidson CH 601 HD advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:54 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: Zenith-List: New member with questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" Hi there everyone I'm UK based and I've been lurking now for a couple of weeks and really enjoying the expertise displayed in the questions and answers on the list. I've read into the archive a bit and the Zenith web site in detail but as always there are more questions than answers. I'm IFR rated and about five years from retirement so looking to build an aircraft that will be cheaper to operate on reduced income than my current registered steed which is a TR182 ( Turbo retractable Cessna 182 - the best single engine light aircraft every made :-) ). I've pretty much decided that a 601XL is the best combination from the perspective of build difficulty and operating cost for my mission profile as compared to, for example, the Vans range. I'm not too sensitive to build cost but want to keep the operating costs at a sensible level. The questions I would like help with are as follows: Has anyone used a rotax 914? I would really like the extra hot and high capability as I travel to France quite often. Has anyone installed the additional wing tanks to get 48 gallons usable - any issues? What useful load are you getting? please can you let me know your actual empty weight and what options/avionics you have installed. I'm looking at something close to a full IFR fit. How many of you are actually flying rather than building? Other than the single occupant heavy wing issue are there any things you don't like? Any other gotchas I should be aware of? Many thanks Peter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:21 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Interesting, Having built and flown a 601 from a kit I was wondering throughout the process if I were to do it again what would I do different, i.e should I build from scratch and what parts should I buy to offset the time...The old time vs. cost equation. The real time sinks seem to be the built up spar of the main wings, the ribs and landing gear. I wonder what it would cost to buy just these parts plus sheet metal? I mean the ribs don't take much labor...the work is in making the forms, once they are made the ribs should be pretty quick and therefor cheap! Definatly the FWF kit looks like a WHOLE LOT of money for what you get....Especially as the cowl just does plain not fit for the Stratus. Of course you need something but I think its going to be a lot of hacking and gluing. If I were to do it again I might just order the engine mount and make a cowling...The rest of the stuff is just auto store stuff. Just some ramblings from one whos been there. Frank HDS Stratus, ram heads 310 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Traveling Man Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" --> Dan, I just decided to build an HD model, presuming its figures fall within the final LSA/SP parameters, and I just returned from the January builder workshop with my rudder. I also wanted an all metal aircraft, my decision to go with the HD model is based on two factors: 1. I am a heavy guy by myself, add the wife and it starts to get close to the XL models useful load before I get fuel on board. Due to the high lift slab wing the HD has the highest useful load of all the 601's. Since I am diabetic and asthmatic the FAA doesn't want me going faster than whatever the top speed for Sport Pilot winds up being. 2. Due to shallow pockets I am going to have to build from plans (and a few bits from Zenith). Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build two sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), as opposed to having to build a rib form for every single rib, as on the XL. My recommendations, for whatever they may be worth to you - I would go with the XL if the higher load limit wasn't a factor and I could afford the kit, Zenith is ramping up production to support the XL and while I was there I noticed that XL parts were all they were building for the 601 family. They do still support the others, but parts are not as available off the shelf as they are for the XL. Consider going to the builders workshop. Its the best avaiation related money I've ever spent, EAA membership included. Those people just bent over backwards to answer questions and made themselves and their faciltiy ours for three whole days (to those of you out there waiting for kits or parts, I appologize). Unless you can afford a full kit and have the time to spend assembling it right away I wouldn't sweat the engine too much, who knows what will be available in two or three years, or what they will cost. Right now I'm leaning towards a Corvail conversion, but that could easily change, I have four to five years to figure that out. As to 601 or 701. I wanted the cross country capability most, and I really like the looks of the 601. But as soon as I'm done with it I want to start a 701. I'm gonna start working on the wife about that soon..... Good Luck! Bob Lindley CH601-HD - I got a Rudder now! High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:43 AM PST US From: Gig Subject: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig OK... I'm stumped. I'm working on the landing/taxi lights for my 601XL and in the box are these little metal thingies. It looks like the part number is SSA-225. I think they came in the light kit. There are 12 of them. I can't find them by that part number on any of the inventory sheets, the plans or the parts database at zenithair.com. To see a picture go to http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html Gig Giacona DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:24 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien These are DZUS fastener springs, like the ones used on the baggage locker door. I have no idea why you would have this in the light kit; but I did'nt use a kit. Michel --- Gig wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig > > > OK... I'm stumped. I'm working on the landing/taxi > lights for my 601XL > and in the box are these little metal thingies. It > looks like the part > number is SSA-225. I think they came in the light > kit. There are 12 of them. > > I can't find them by that part number on any of the > inventory sheets, > the plans or the parts database at zenithair.com. > > To see a picture go to > http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html > > > Gig Giacona > > DO NOT ARCHIVE ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:48 AM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: New member with questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com Greetings list Still waiting for the big box. Zenith has advised me they are two weeks behind in shipments. My question is how many and what size clecos are required to build the rudder only. My Dad will be building it for me (500 miles from me) and I need to know how many to purchase to set him up. Thanks Joe Motis 601XL still waiting for the big box Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:18 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Gig, they look like parts of dzu fasteners. Take a look in the ASS catalog, around page 100. Carlos > OK... I'm stumped. I'm working on the landing/taxi lights for my 601XL > and in the box are these little metal thingies. It looks like the part > number is SSA-225. I think they came in the light kit. There are 12 of them. > > I can't find them by that part number on any of the inventory sheets, > the plans or the parts database at zenithair.com. > > To see a picture go to http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html > > > Gig Giacona > > DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:37 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Gig: I don't think you need them. From Michel Therin's page see this photo: http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/images/powing_stiff.jpg The description is as follows: Dzus Not talking about a Greek God here, but rather the fastener that keeps the baggage door closed. Small pieces of L angles are installed to reinforce each of the DZus openings on the wing (they are 45mm long). The rivets for the DZus springs are dimpled and are attaching the Spring and L angle to the skin. Anyway they are not needed for the landing/Taxi light assemblies unless there is a drawing revision. Keep up the good work, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com OK... I'm stumped. To see a picture go to http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html Gig Giacona DO NOT ARCHIVE High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New member with questions From: caspainhower@aep.com 02/02/2004 02:40:12 PM --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com Peter, I am installing the aux tanks in my XL. The only issues I had were; the fuel line run through a tube welded into the main tank and is a very tight fit. Hooking the fuel line up is also quite tedious as there is less than a 2" gap between the nose ribs, but it can be done. The tanks are an excellent fit and will provide great range. I plan to have a full electric IFR panel for x-country flying. Hopefully others can provide you with flight data as I am still months away from that first flight. I also chose the Zenith with the idea of being able to afford to fly after I retire (or am semi-retired). Craig S. 601XL, N601XL 0-235 lyc This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:09 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: These are DZUS fastener springs. Don't know where they are used on the XL, but they are used to hold the wing locker down on the HD/HDS models. Jerry Latimer 601HDS do not archive > > From: Gig > Date: 2004/02/02 Mon PM 02:03:19 EST > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith-List: What are these parts? > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig > > OK... I'm stumped. I'm working on the landing/taxi lights for my 601XL > and in the box are these little metal thingies. It looks like the part > number is SSA-225. I think they came in the light kit. There are 12 of them. > > I can't find them by that part number on any of the inventory sheets, > the plans or the parts database at zenithair.com. > > To see a picture go to http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html > > > Gig Giacona > > DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:23 PM PST US From: Bill Cardell Subject: RE: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell They're the spring side of dzus fasteners. Probably for the baggage comp? Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) bill@flyinmiata.com Flyin' Miata 1-800-359-6957 (sales only) 970-242-3800 (tech support) http://flyinmiata.com http://flyinprotege.com -----Original Message----- From: Gig [mailto:wr.giacona@cox-internet.com] Subject: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig OK... I'm stumped. I'm working on the landing/taxi lights for my 601XL and in the box are these little metal thingies. It looks like the part number is SSA-225. I think they came in the light kit. There are 12 of them. I can't find them by that part number on any of the inventory sheets, the plans or the parts database at zenithair.com. To see a picture go to http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html Gig Giacona DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:48 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What are these parts? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell Gig: If you got the firewall fwd kit that is where they are used.Maybe they got in the wrong box. Jack Gig wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gig OK... I'm stumped. I'm working on the landing/taxi lights for my 601XL and in the box are these little metal thingies. It looks like the part number is SSA-225. I think they came in the light kit. There are 12 of them. I can't find them by that part number on any of the inventory sheets, the plans or the parts database at zenithair.com. To see a picture go to http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR/html/progress.html Gig Giacona DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:02 PM PST US From: "dsherburn" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "dsherburn" Craig, I appreciate your comments re: the O-235. That's kind of the way I'm leaning. Is the fact that more A&P's are going to be familiar with this motor a factor, or is it kind of a "non issue". How about motor mounts and factory help. Are mounts and accessories available and does Zenith "bless" this installation? Sorry for all the "newbie" questions many of you are way beyond. Dan Sherburn ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com > > > >I truely see 4 gph with mine. With my Cessna 150, I usually planned for > 6.5 gph. > >For round numbers, fly 1000 hours burning 2.5 gph more at $2.50/gal and > you just > >spent $6,250 more in fuel. You won't gain much (if any) speed because the > >Cont and Lyc weigh so much more. There is much discussion about the cost > of > >the Rotax, but I don't see a certified engine being a cost savings. > > I chose the XL because I wanted to use the 0-235. Based on my experience > in a 152 and feedback from XL pilots flying behind one, 5 - 5.5 gph is a > realistic rate for cruising at 75% power. Factor in that you can burn > autogas and the fuel cost is not an issue. As far as the extra weight, > that will affect climb performance some, but not cruise speed. If you want > a new engine, the certified engine will definitely cost more. However, > used 0-235's are plentiful and a midtime engine sells for ~$6,000. The > decision about what engine to use is still more one of personal preference, > a certified engine was mine, for x-country flying. > > Craig S. > N 601XS 0-235 lyc. > > > This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the > Nuclear Generation Group of American Electric Power are for the sole > use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:55 PM PST US From: "Bima, Martin" Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax vs. Rotax... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" Let's not confuse the 532 (and subsequent 582) with the Ski-Doo versions of these engines. The sled versions make a stink of a lot of horsepower mainly due to the atmosphere they operate in and the amount of gas they swallow. The aircraft engines are de-rated - have smaller orifices that restrict fuel flow. These engines also have beefier bearings and are made to run like aircraft engine bearings. Aircraft engines commonly run close to flat out 70-80 percent of the time. Ski-Doos run flat-out on relatively short bursts out on a lake or river and cruise the rest of the time. I am definitely not against experimenting - as long as it is researched, and tested, and safe (as safe as possible). Martin Bima STOL-Vair Winnipeg, Canada 18% complete Rotax vs. Rotax... Let's not confuse the 532 (and subsequent 582) with the Ski-Doo versions of these engines. The sled versions make a stink of a lot of horsepower mainly due to the atmosphere they operate in and the amount of gas they swallow. The aircraft engines are de-rated - have smaller orifices that restrict fuel flow. These engines also have beefier bearings and are made to run like aircraft engine bearings. Aircraft engines commonly run close to flat out 70-80 percent of the time. Ski-Doos run flat-out on relatively short bursts out on a lake or river and cruise the rest of the time. I am definitely not against experimenting - as long as it is researched, and tested, and safe (as safe as possible). Martin Bima STOL-Vair Winnipeg, Canada 18% complete ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:00 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Great folder for your ZAC blueprints. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com Greetings list After fruitless trips to Office Max and Staples looking for a binder to put the ZAC blueprints in, I found an art display folder at a local (not a chain) art supply.The Itoya IA-12-12 11"X17" has 24 double sided clear plastic leaves with a piece of non acidic paper to slide your prints into and has the added benefit of lying flat, displaying two prints at once and protecting them from spilled coffee or whatever. You will need to buy two of them, but they are only about $12.00 apiece. Looks darn professional, also. Their website is www.itoya.com which gives a list of where they can be purchased. Still waiting for the big box Joe Motis 601XL Do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:39 PM PST US From: "Steelframe AUS" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steelframe AUS" You wrote, Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build two sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), Bob, You only have to build one set of rib formers, they form both left & right hand ribs. Regards Ron Saarinen (in Australia) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Traveling Man" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" > > Dan, > > I just decided to build an HD model, presuming its figures fall within the > final LSA/SP parameters, and I just returned from the January builder > workshop with my rudder. > > I also wanted an all metal aircraft, my decision to go with the HD model is > based on two factors: > > 1. I am a heavy guy by myself, add the wife and it starts to get close to > the XL models useful load before I get fuel on board. Due to the high lift > slab wing the HD has the highest useful load of all the 601's. Since I am > diabetic and asthmatic the FAA doesn't want me going faster than whatever > the top speed for Sport Pilot winds up being. > > 2. Due to shallow pockets I am going to have to build from plans (and a few > bits from Zenith). Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build two > sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), as opposed to having > to build a rib form for every single rib, as on the XL. > > My recommendations, for whatever they may be worth to you - > > I would go with the XL if the higher load limit wasn't a factor and I could > afford the kit, Zenith is ramping up production to support the XL and while > I was there I noticed that XL parts were all they were building for the 601 > family. They do still support the others, but parts are not as available > off the shelf as they are for the XL. > > Consider going to the builders workshop. Its the best avaiation related > money I've ever spent, EAA membership included. Those people just bent over > backwards to answer questions and made themselves and their faciltiy ours > for three whole days (to those of you out there waiting for kits or parts, I > appologize). > > Unless you can afford a full kit and have the time to spend assembling it > right away I wouldn't sweat the engine too much, who knows what will be > available in two or three years, or what they will cost. Right now I'm > leaning towards a Corvail conversion, but that could easily change, I have > four to five years to figure that out. As to 601 or 701. I wanted the > cross country capability most, and I really like the looks of the 601. But > as soon as I'm done with it I want to start a 701. I'm gonna start working > on the wife about that soon..... > > Good Luck! > > Bob Lindley > CH601-HD - I got a Rudder now! > > High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet > > > __________ NOD32 1.566 (20031128) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:39 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" How do you handle spring-back with only one set of form blocks? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steelframe AUS" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steelframe AUS" > > You wrote, Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build two > sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), > > Bob, You only have to build one set of rib formers, they form both > left & right hand ribs. > > Regards > Ron Saarinen (in Australia) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Traveling Man" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" > > > > > Dan, > > > > I just decided to build an HD model, presuming its figures fall within the > > final LSA/SP parameters, and I just returned from the January builder > > workshop with my rudder. > > > > I also wanted an all metal aircraft, my decision to go with the HD model > is > > based on two factors: > > > > 1. I am a heavy guy by myself, add the wife and it starts to get close to > > the XL models useful load before I get fuel on board. Due to the high > lift > > slab wing the HD has the highest useful load of all the 601's. Since I am > > diabetic and asthmatic the FAA doesn't want me going faster than whatever > > the top speed for Sport Pilot winds up being. > > > > 2. Due to shallow pockets I am going to have to build from plans (and a > few > > bits from Zenith). Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build > two > > sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), as opposed to > having > > to build a rib form for every single rib, as on the XL. > > > > My recommendations, for whatever they may be worth to you - > > > > I would go with the XL if the higher load limit wasn't a factor and I > could > > afford the kit, Zenith is ramping up production to support the XL and > while > > I was there I noticed that XL parts were all they were building for the > 601 > > family. They do still support the others, but parts are not as available > > off the shelf as they are for the XL. > > > > Consider going to the builders workshop. Its the best avaiation related > > money I've ever spent, EAA membership included. Those people just bent > over > > backwards to answer questions and made themselves and their faciltiy ours > > for three whole days (to those of you out there waiting for kits or parts, > I > > appologize). > > > > Unless you can afford a full kit and have the time to spend assembling it > > right away I wouldn't sweat the engine too much, who knows what will be > > available in two or three years, or what they will cost. Right now I'm > > leaning towards a Corvail conversion, but that could easily change, I have > > four to five years to figure that out. As to 601 or 701. I wanted the > > cross country capability most, and I really like the looks of the 601. > But > > as soon as I'm done with it I want to start a 701. I'm gonna start > working > > on the wife about that soon..... > > > > Good Luck! > > > > Bob Lindley > > CH601-HD - I got a Rudder now! > > > > High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.566 (20031128) Information __________ > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. > > http://www.nod32.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:40 PM PST US From: "The Meiste's" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stratus Subaru cooling --> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" I am pleased to announce that my cooling problems are apparently over. My water temp pegged at 185 deg. and only exceeded that when taxiing with no airflow through the rad +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John, Just curious what the OAT was during your test, and what RPM were you cruising at? Nice to hear about your success. Kelly Meiste 601 Stratus ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:30 PM PST US From: "Steelframe AUS" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steelframe AUS" When you make your 2 form blocks you put a 10deg angle on both, & when you sandwich your rib between the blocks you can then make a left or a right hand rib, just depends on which way you belt it Ron Saarinen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > How do you handle spring-back with only one set of form blocks? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steelframe AUS" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steelframe AUS" > > > > > You wrote, Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build two > > sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), > > > > Bob, You only have to build one set of rib formers, they form both > > left & right hand ribs. > > > > Regards > > Ron Saarinen (in Australia) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Traveling Man" > > To: > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL-HD/HDS/UL > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" > > > > > > > > Dan, > > > > > > I just decided to build an HD model, presuming its figures fall within > the > > > final LSA/SP parameters, and I just returned from the January builder > > > workshop with my rudder. > > > > > > I also wanted an all metal aircraft, my decision to go with the HD model > > is > > > based on two factors: > > > > > > 1. I am a heavy guy by myself, add the wife and it starts to get close > to > > > the XL models useful load before I get fuel on board. Due to the high > > lift > > > slab wing the HD has the highest useful load of all the 601's. Since I > am > > > diabetic and asthmatic the FAA doesn't want me going faster than > whatever > > > the top speed for Sport Pilot winds up being. > > > > > > 2. Due to shallow pockets I am going to have to build from plans (and a > > few > > > bits from Zenith). Since the HD has the slab wing I only have to build > > two > > > sets of rib forms for the wings (one left, one right), as opposed to > > having > > > to build a rib form for every single rib, as on the XL. > > > > > > My recommendations, for whatever they may be worth to you - > > > > > > I would go with the XL if the higher load limit wasn't a factor and I > > could > > > afford the kit, Zenith is ramping up production to support the XL and > > while > > > I was there I noticed that XL parts were all they were building for the > > 601 > > > family. They do still support the others, but parts are not as > available > > > off the shelf as they are for the XL. > > > > > > Consider going to the builders workshop. Its the best avaiation related > > > money I've ever spent, EAA membership included. Those people just bent > > over > > > backwards to answer questions and made themselves and their faciltiy > ours > > > for three whole days (to those of you out there waiting for kits or > parts, > > I > > > appologize). > > > > > > Unless you can afford a full kit and have the time to spend assembling > it > > > right away I wouldn't sweat the engine too much, who knows what will be > > > available in two or three years, or what they will cost. Right now I'm > > > leaning towards a Corvail conversion, but that could easily change, I > have > > > four to five years to figure that out. As to 601 or 701. I wanted the > > > cross country capability most, and I really like the looks of the 601. > > But > > > as soon as I'm done with it I want to start a 701. I'm gonna start > > working > > > on the wife about that soon..... > > > > > > Good Luck! > > > > > > Bob Lindley > > > CH601-HD - I got a Rudder now! > > > > > > High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium > Internet > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.566 (20031128) Information __________ > > > > > > This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. > > > http://www.nod32.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.566 (20031128) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > >