Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - First Flight N601ZR (David Barth)
2. 10:17 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (Bob Miller)
3. 10:17 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (Bob Miller)
4. 10:50 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (Scott Laughlin)
5. 11:02 AM - Use of portable 12V Heaters (Andrew SanClemente)
6. 11:23 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
7. 11:23 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (Jeff Small)
8. 11:29 AM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
9. 11:45 AM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (caspainhower@aep.com)
10. 01:00 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (Jackie B. Johnson)
11. 01:52 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
12. 02:19 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
13. 02:24 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
14. 03:50 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (Benford2@aol.com)
15. 03:57 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (Michel Therrien)
16. 04:42 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
17. 05:22 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters (The Meiste's)
18. 07:59 PM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (Bob Miller)
19. 08:04 PM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection (Bob Miller)
20. 08:52 PM - Re: Use of portable 12V heaters (Larry Martin)
21. 11:12 PM - Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | First Flight N601ZR |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Awesome Rick! Congratulations and thanks for the
excellent photos. Truely inspirational.
David
do not archive
> N601ZR took to the skies yesterday morning for a
> couple of hours of bug
> smashing. 2.1 hours to be exact.
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
OK, I was thinking Mylar was a flexible tape, not a stiff material. How do
you determine how strong the Mylar needs to be to avoid having it pushed up
into the gap by pressure under the wing?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Quote: "If the Mylar is wide enough to cover the gap when the aileron is
> full
> upward, wouldn't it leave a big fold hanging down when the aileron is
> neutral?
> Bob"
>
>
> Bob:
>
> I picture it being on the outside (bottom) of the surface of the wing and
> aileron and rubbing on the aileron in movement. This way it would seal
the
> gap at all times. The only challenge is to keep it from "snagging" on
> rivets or worse the edge of the aileron at full-up position.
>
> Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Scott,
Just curious, as I've been considering this same mod. How did you arrive at
.016? Is there any way to determine how much pressure will be pushing the
aluminum up into the gap?
You've probably thought of this, but some teflon or UHMW tape on the
trailing edge would reduce abrasion of the paint on the lower skin of the
aileron.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Craig and others:
>
> I have been thinking about a strip of .016 aluminum riveted to the bottom
of
> the wing the length of the aileron using the existing rivet holes. It
could
> be carefully bent upward (with a sheet brake) in such a way that it holds
> pressure against the aileron. Also, if necessary a slight bend could be
> made on the trailing edge (downward) to prevent it from snagging on
> anything.
>
> This strip of aluminum could be installed permanently between the skin and
> the rear channel using the existing rivet holes and painted with the wing.
> If you are real clever, you could cut your bottom wing skins with this
piece
> sticking out.
>
> I am very close to this part of construction and I plan to try this soon.
I
> will post some photos and comments on my website.
>
> Scott Laughlin
> www.cooknwithgas.com
>
> Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Bob:
My right wing is sitting on the bench upside right now. I'll put the
aileron in place and take a photo tonight. The gap isn't that wide even in
the full up position, but there is still a gap in the neutral position.
For clarification, I have the hinge-less ailerons and the gap I am talking
about is on the bottom between the aileron and the wing. If you look at
drawing 6-S-3 (Mine is dated 12/02), you can see the aileron deflection is
11.5 deg. from neutral in both directions (up and down).
Closing this small gap may not make much difference, but it seems easy
enough to do. As to your question about the pressure pushing up on the
.016" aluminum, a strip of .016" aluminum is the only thing holding the
aileron to the wing (not counting the control rod).
A bigger issue is the top gap between the flap and the wing. I never saw
the flaps in the "up" position on the Demo 601XL at ZAC to see what it looks
like in-flight. (they put them down for boarding and exiting the aircraft.)
This is fun, isn't it?
Scott.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
<drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Scott,
Just curious, as I've been considering this same mod. How did you arrive at
.016? Is there any way to determine how much pressure will be pushing the
aluminum up into the gap?
You've probably thought of this, but some teflon or UHMW tape on the
trailing edge would reduce abrasion of the paint on the lower skin of the
aileron.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Craig and others:
>
> I have been thinking about a strip of .016 aluminum riveted to the bottom
of
> the wing the length of the aileron using the existing rivet holes. It
could
> be carefully bent upward (with a sheet brake) in such a way that it holds
> pressure against the aileron. Also, if necessary a slight bend could be
> made on the trailing edge (downward) to prevent it from snagging on
> anything.
>
> This strip of aluminum could be installed permanently between the skin
and
> the rear channel using the existing rivet holes and painted with the
wing.
> If you are real clever, you could cut your bottom wing skins with this
piece
> sticking out.
>
> I am very close to this part of construction and I plan to try this soon.
I
> will post some photos and comments on my website.
>
> Scott Laughlin
> www.cooknwithgas.com
>
> Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide.
>
>
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
Hi,
Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
cabing and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the
many 12V portable automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work
out? On the face of it seems like a simple, lightweight, portable
solution (remove in summer if desired) to solve the cabin heating
problem.
All comments welcome
Thanks
Andrew
601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
95% complete
Hi,
Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the cabing and
was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many 12V portable automotive
heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On the face of it seems like
a simple, lightweight, portable solution (remove in summer if desired) to solve
the cabin heating problem.
All comments welcome
Thanks
Andrew
601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
95% complete
Message 6
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| Subject: | 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I think this has been done before but a search of the archives might be in
order.
Be very careful. You will need to check this out in flight which means full
aleron...The only time I have ever applied full aleron is when doing a
barell roll!
It would be interesting to say the least if it did not stop rolling....:)
Have a word with ZAC and get their take on it. This is one you can't afford
to try it and see if it works!
Frank
HDS 313 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Laughlin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
--> <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Bob:
My right wing is sitting on the bench upside right now. I'll put the
aileron in place and take a photo tonight. The gap isn't that wide even in
the full up position, but there is still a gap in the neutral position.
For clarification, I have the hinge-less ailerons and the gap I am talking
about is on the bottom between the aileron and the wing. If you look at
drawing 6-S-3 (Mine is dated 12/02), you can see the aileron deflection is
11.5 deg. from neutral in both directions (up and down).
Closing this small gap may not make much difference, but it seems easy
enough to do. As to your question about the pressure pushing up on the
.016" aluminum, a strip of .016" aluminum is the only thing holding the
aileron to the wing (not counting the control rod).
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:25:45 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>I have been thinking about a strip of .016 aluminum riveted to the bottom
of the wing the length of the aileron using the existing rivet holes. It could
be carefully bent upward (with a sheet brake) in such a way that it holds
pressure against the aileron. Also, if necessary a slight bend could be
made on the trailing edge (downward) to prevent it from snagging on
anything.
+++ Anyone thinking of doing something along these lines should consider the following
NTSB report of the crash of the Cirrus prototype - a fatal crash. To
attach anything like aluminum or heavy, not readily pliable UHMW to the gap under
the aileron and not test it thoroughly in a wind tunnel is to tempt fate.
Even if the material is seemingly of a thickness and width to preclude jamming
in the aileron-wing gap, are you willing to place your safety on the line?
+++ If your interest is piqued along these lines seek out info on the LoPresti
or Knots2U sites and then talk with their engineers. And ask them or Chris what
might be the long range impact on the structural strength of the aileron bottom
skin as it undergoes pressure and rubbing on it (even if protected by teflon
tape) through hundreds of thousand cycles.
NTSB Identification: CHI99FA112 . The docket is stored in the (offline) NTSB Imaging
System.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, March 23, 1999 in DULUTH, MN
Probable Cause Approval Date: 4/9/01
Aircraft: Cirrus Design Corp. SR20, registration: N115CD
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
The experimental airplane was on a test flight when it impacted terrain following
an emergency landing attempt. The airplane was certified as an experimental
airplane for crew training. The airplane's aileron spring cartridge and rudder-aileron
interconnect had been removed for the test flight. The airplane was
loaded with ballast to provide an aft center of gravity with stall tufts attached
to both wings. During the test flight, the company test pilot declared an
emergency and reported a flight control problem while maneuvering. Radar data
indicates that 10 seconds prior to the declaration of an emergency by the test
pilot, the aircraft was in a stall phase of flight. Postaccident inspection revealed
that the right aileron exhibited evidence of jamming with its wing cove/skin.
In postaccident testing of a similar SR20, a manual input pilot force
was applied to the side yoke control by a Cirrus Design Corporation (CDC) test
pilot. A maximum load of 85 pounds was achieved by the test pilot by leaning
forward and applying both hands on the side yoke control. The control input could
not be held indefinitely due to muscle fatigue. During the control input,
the right aileron was deflected 11 degrees with the left aileron clamped at the
inboard rib. CDC test pilots were not graduates of civilian or military flight
test schools. The test pilot was not equipped with a personal parachute. A
gusting crosswind of approximately 16 knots was present on the selected landing
runway. The airplane's maximum demonstrated crosswind component was 19 knots.
All runways were available at the time of the accident. CDC was not monitoring
radio communications with the accident pilot during the test flight.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this
accident as follows:
the lack of sufficient aileron-to-wing gap clearance design. Contributing factors
were the inadequate oversight of the Federal Aviation Administration of the
design and manufacturing and flight test process of Cirrus Design Corporation,
the location of the control yoke, the inadequate surveillance of the test flight
and the test flight procedures by the Cirrus Design Corporation. The destabilizing
crosswind condition that existed on the landing runway was an additional
factor.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Bruce Bockius did this...I don't know how effective it was. On the face of
it these heaters look pretty small in terms of output.
I would be nervous about draining the battery on approach to landing.
At night with all the lights on I'm down to about 13.5 volts at the
battery...Now your going to add a heater on to of this load?
What I did was to get a ford heater with 4 computer muffin fans on the back.
Low speed is two fans running, hi speed is all four.
The water circulates continuously (through the bypass hose) but the radiated
heat with no fans running has never been an issue.
My heater was brass which is a little heavy, but you can get aluminium
heater/cooling cores.
Have you changed out your valve guides yet?
Frank
HDS Stratus, with Ram heads. 313 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
SanClemente
Subject: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
--> <ansancle@townisp.com>
Hi,
Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
cabing and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the
many 12V portable automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work
out? On the face of it seems like a simple, lightweight, portable
solution (remove in summer if desired) to solve the cabin heating
problem.
All comments welcome
Thanks
Andrew
601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
95% complete
Hi,
Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the cabing
and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many 12V portable
automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On the face of it seems
like a simple, lightweight, portable solution (remove in summer if desired)
to solve the cabin heating problem.
All comments welcome
Thanks
Andrew
601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
95% complete
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
02/19/2004 02:45:28 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
>OK, I was thinking Mylar was a flexible tape, not a stiff material. How
do
>you determine how strong the Mylar needs to be to avoid having it pushed
up
>into the gap by pressure under the wing?
>Bob
I was thinking the same thing and there is flexible tape made from mylar
that can be use directly on small hinge gaps to prevent air leakage. But
there is also a ridgid material made from mylar that sailplanes have been
using for a while to decrease drag and improve lift. I don't know how much
pressure would be applied to the gap seal. I read a previous post that
mentioned using .025 aluminum, which I would probably overlap the aileron
at least 1" at full deflection. The mylar I saw listed was only .010 and
was taped in place, it may not be suitable for our application. I guess
this is the 'experimental' part. ;-}
Craig S.
N601XS
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jackie B. Johnson" <zjohnson@ucnsb.net>
FRank,
Where did you find room to put heater, or do you just have wing
tanks??I've thought of behind seat and duct fwd..but even that seems like a
lot of work..any pictures on your installation??
Jackie N5JZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Bruce Bockius did this...I don't know how effective it was. On the face of
> it these heaters look pretty small in terms of output.
>
> I would be nervous about draining the battery on approach to landing.
>
> At night with all the lights on I'm down to about 13.5 volts at the
> battery...Now your going to add a heater on to of this load?
>
> What I did was to get a ford heater with 4 computer muffin fans on the
back.
> Low speed is two fans running, hi speed is all four.
>
> The water circulates continuously (through the bypass hose) but the
radiated
> heat with no fans running has never been an issue.
>
> My heater was brass which is a little heavy, but you can get aluminium
> heater/cooling cores.
>
> Have you changed out your valve guides yet?
>
> Frank
>
> HDS Stratus, with Ram heads. 313 hours
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
> SanClemente
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
> --> <ansancle@townisp.com>
>
> Hi,
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
> cabing and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the
> many 12V portable automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work
> out? On the face of it seems like a simple, lightweight, portable
> solution (remove in summer if desired) to solve the cabin heating
> problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
>
>
> Hi,
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
cabing
> and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many 12V
portable
> automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On the face of it
seems
> like a simple, lightweight, portable solution (remove in summer if
desired)
> to solve the cabin heating problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes I just have wing tanks. The thought of all that fuel in my lap during a
forced landing was too excrutiating to bear...As I have had three near
engine outs due to dropped valve guides I think it was the right
decision!...I actually sent my header tank back for a full refund and
unzipped my previously completed wings to install the tanks...A fairly
simple job.
I put the heater above the passenger foot pedals on a frame that I made from
standard "L" brackets left over from the kit. It looks like a picture frame
with springs that tension the heater core into the frame. These same springs
hold the fans onto the heater core...A bit like a 3 layer sandwich.
I then suspended the frame/heater/fans from the firewall by a cantelever
bracket system also made from "L" angle. With a couple of diagonals its
pretty rigid.
If the system gets a leak it dumps onto the PX feet and not yours! It also
is very convenient to run the heater hoses from the right side of the
engine.
I use a single (two position) switch with a diode between the two
terminals....One position is for low (two fans running) the other for
HI...all four running.
Water circulates all the time so no messing about trying to find and install
a heater valve.
It's a pretty neat and simple installation which works well.
Frank HDS/Stratus/Ram heads 313 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jackie B.
Johnson
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jackie B. Johnson"
--> <zjohnson@ucnsb.net>
FRank,
Where did you find room to put heater, or do you just have wing
tanks??I've thought of behind seat and duct fwd..but even that seems like a
lot of work..any pictures on your installation??
Jackie N5JZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Bruce Bockius did this...I don't know how effective it was. On the
> face of it these heaters look pretty small in terms of output.
>
> I would be nervous about draining the battery on approach to landing.
>
> At night with all the lights on I'm down to about 13.5 volts at the
> battery...Now your going to add a heater on to of this load?
>
> What I did was to get a ford heater with 4 computer muffin fans on the
back.
> Low speed is two fans running, hi speed is all four.
>
> The water circulates continuously (through the bypass hose) but the
radiated
> heat with no fans running has never been an issue.
>
> My heater was brass which is a little heavy, but you can get aluminium
> heater/cooling cores.
>
> Have you changed out your valve guides yet?
>
> Frank
>
> HDS Stratus, with Ram heads. 313 hours
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
> SanClemente
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
> --> <ansancle@townisp.com>
>
> Hi,
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
> cabing and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many
> 12V portable automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On
> the face of it seems like a simple, lightweight, portable solution
> (remove in summer if desired) to solve the cabin heating problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
>
>
> Hi,
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
cabing
> and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many 12V
portable
> automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On the face of it
seems
> like a simple, lightweight, portable solution (remove in summer if
desired)
> to solve the cabin heating problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HINDE,FRANK
(HP-Corvallis,ex1)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
--> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes I just have wing tanks. The thought of all that fuel in my lap during a
forced landing was too excrutiating to bear...As I have had three near
engine outs due to dropped valve guides I think it was the right
decision!...I actually sent my header tank back for a full refund and
unzipped my previously completed wings to install the tanks...A fairly
simple job.
I put the heater above the passenger foot pedals on a frame that I made from
standard "L" brackets left over from the kit. It looks like a picture frame
with springs that tension the heater core into the frame. These same springs
hold the fans onto the heater core...A bit like a 3 layer sandwich.
I then suspended the frame/heater/fans from the firewall by a cantelever
bracket system also made from "L" angle. With a couple of diagonals its
pretty rigid.
If the system gets a leak it dumps onto the PX feet and not yours! It also
is very convenient to run the heater hoses from the right side of the
engine.
I use a single (two position) switch with a diode between the two
terminals....One position is for low (two fans running) the other for
HI...all four running.
Water circulates all the time so no messing about trying to find and install
a heater valve.
It's a pretty neat and simple installation which works well.
Frank HDS/Stratus/Ram heads 313 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jackie B.
Johnson
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jackie B. Johnson"
--> <zjohnson@ucnsb.net>
FRank,
Where did you find room to put heater, or do you just have wing
tanks??I've thought of behind seat and duct fwd..but even that seems like a
lot of work..any pictures on your installation??
Jackie N5JZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Bruce Bockius did this...I don't know how effective it was. On the
> face of it these heaters look pretty small in terms of output.
>
> I would be nervous about draining the battery on approach to landing.
>
> At night with all the lights on I'm down to about 13.5 volts at the
> battery...Now your going to add a heater on to of this load?
>
> What I did was to get a ford heater with 4 computer muffin fans on the
back.
> Low speed is two fans running, hi speed is all four.
>
> The water circulates continuously (through the bypass hose) but the
radiated
> heat with no fans running has never been an issue.
>
> My heater was brass which is a little heavy, but you can get aluminium
> heater/cooling cores.
>
> Have you changed out your valve guides yet?
>
> Frank
>
> HDS Stratus, with Ram heads. 313 hours
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
> SanClemente
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
> --> <ansancle@townisp.com>
>
> Hi,
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
> cabing and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many
> 12V portable automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On
> the face of it seems like a simple, lightweight, portable solution
> (remove in summer if desired) to solve the cabin heating problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
>
>
> Hi,
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
cabing
> and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the many 12V
portable
> automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work out? On the face of it
seems
> like a simple, lightweight, portable solution (remove in summer if
desired)
> to solve the cabin heating problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
The other way I have seen this done is to mount the heater in a box flat to
the front side of the firewall. A three inch hole in the firewall, a duct
connection on the "upstream" side of the heater box and scat tube to the air
intake in the cowl.
Put a cable operated damper in the duct connection and you have the same
effect, except now you don't need the fans either.
I believe a lot of folks buy this duct componentry off the Vans website. I
think there is enough room under the header tank for a 3" hole in the
firewall?
I too am going to buy something from the Van's website....An RV-7
kit!.....:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HINDE,FRANK
(HP-Corvallis,ex1)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
--> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes I just have wing tanks. The thought of all that fuel in my lap during a
forced landing was too excrutiating to bear...As I have had three near
engine outs due to dropped valve guides I think it was the right
decision!...I actually sent my header tank back for a full refund and
unzipped my previously completed wings to install the tanks...A fairly
simple job.
I put the heater above the passenger foot pedals on a frame that I made from
standard "L" brackets left over from the kit. It looks like a picture frame
with springs that tension the heater core into the frame. These same springs
hold the fans onto the heater core...A bit like a 3 layer sandwich.
I then suspended the frame/heater/fans from the firewall by a cantelever
bracket system also made from "L" angle. With a couple of diagonals its
pretty rigid.
If the system gets a leak it dumps onto the PX feet and not yours! It also
is very convenient to run the heater hoses from the right side of the
engine.
I use a single (two position) switch with a diode between the two
terminals....One position is for low (two fans running) the other for
HI...all four running.
Water circulates all the time so no messing about trying to find and install
a heater valve.
It's a pretty neat and simple installation which works well.
Frank HDS/Stratus/Ram heads 313 hours
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 2/19/2004 12:30:14 PM Mountain Standard Time,
frank.hinde@hp.com writes:
>
> What I did was to get a ford heater with 4 computer muffin fans on the back.
> Low speed is two fans running, hi speed is all four.
>
> The water circulates continuously (through the bypass hose) but the radiated
> heat with no fans running has never been an issue.
>
> My heater was brass which is a little heavy, but you can get aluminium
> heater/cooling cores
I agree with Frank. If you have a liquid cooled motor, why the heck don't you
want to use free heat from it. Look at the bright side, No CO in the cockpit
either. Mine is plumbed the same way and in the case of a stuck thermostat the
heater will absorb enough heat to get ya on the ground.
Ben Haas N801BH.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Ben, did you make the same observation as Frank as to
the absence of heating in the cockpit if the fan is
not active (with no water valve).
I installed a water valve to cut water from going
through my radiator, but I don't like this
installation (several more points of failure, cut flow
of the bypass hose between manifold and pump and
weight).
Here, my friends tell me that the radiator will
generate a lot of heat by radiation but Frank seems to
tell otherwise. One more testimony will make me
remove several hose connection, a pull cable and a
water valve!
Michel
--- Benford2@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 2/19/2004 12:30:14 PM Mountain
> Standard Time,
> frank.hinde@hp.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > What I did was to get a ford heater with 4
> computer muffin fans on the back.
> > Low speed is two fans running, hi speed is all
> four.
> >
> > The water circulates continuously (through the
> bypass hose) but the radiated
> > heat with no fans running has never been an issue.
> >
> > My heater was brass which is a little heavy, but
> you can get aluminium
> > heater/cooling cores
>
> I agree with Frank. If you have a liquid cooled
> motor, why the heck don't you
> want to use free heat from it. Look at the bright
> side, No CO in the cockpit
> either. Mine is plumbed the same way and in the case
> of a stuck thermostat the
> heater will absorb enough heat to get ya on the
> ground.
>
> Ben Haas N801BH.
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
Message 16
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| Subject: | Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I thrashed around on this point for a long time but was told that no way
would I notice any radiated heat...and guess what.....?
I never notice ANY heat coming from the radiator when the fans are not
running....The only time its hot is taxiing on the ground due to solar gain
thru the canopy...But I have never noticed any warm air rising even then.
In flight even on the hottest days once again I never have noticed any heat.
My advise is to rip it out.
I never put it in for the very reasons you describe.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Use of portable 12V Heaters
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Ben, did you make the same observation as Frank as to
the absence of heating in the cockpit if the fan is
not active (with no water valve).
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Use of portable 12V Heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
> Ive read through many of the threads regarding getting heat into the
> cabing and was wondering if anyone had simply wired in one of the
> many 12V portable automotive heater/fans? If so how did they work
> out? On the face of it seems like a simple, lightweight, portable
> solution (remove in summer if desired) to solve the cabin heating
> problem.
>
> All comments welcome
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601-HDS w/Stratus Subaru EA-81
> 95% complete
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Andrew,
Yes I've tried this route but sadly to say it didn't help that much. If I
run it in my car when it as already been warmed up with the auto's heater it
seems to put out lots of heat. But when it's in a cold aircraft (on a cloudy
day) all it really does is circulate the air and not really warming it much
(maybe 5 deg's at best). I've stopped using mine this winter & try to fly
when the suns out as that canopy really warms the interior nicely.
I haven't gone to the water heat source yet as I wanted to keep my plane as
simple & light as possible. But the up side of going to a heater core is in
the summer it will help to cool the Soob also.
Kelly Meiste
601 Stratus HD
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Scott,
I'm concerned that even though .016 is holding the aileron to the wing, it
is supported on both sides, whereas the gap seal would be supported on only
one. I wish we had a way to determine how much pressure would be on that
gap seal.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Bob:
>
> My right wing is sitting on the bench upside right now. I'll put the
> aileron in place and take a photo tonight. The gap isn't that wide even
in
> the full up position, but there is still a gap in the neutral position.
>
> For clarification, I have the hinge-less ailerons and the gap I am talking
> about is on the bottom between the aileron and the wing. If you look at
> drawing 6-S-3 (Mine is dated 12/02), you can see the aileron deflection is
> 11.5 deg. from neutral in both directions (up and down).
>
> Closing this small gap may not make much difference, but it seems easy
> enough to do. As to your question about the pressure pushing up on the
> .016" aluminum, a strip of .016" aluminum is the only thing holding the
> aileron to the wing (not counting the control rod).
>
> A bigger issue is the top gap between the flap and the wing. I never saw
> the flaps in the "up" position on the Demo 601XL at ZAC to see what it
looks
> like in-flight. (they put them down for boarding and exiting the
aircraft.)
>
> This is fun, isn't it?
>
> Scott.
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:04:02 -0500
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
> <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> Scott,
> Just curious, as I've been considering this same mod. How did you arrive
at
> .016? Is there any way to determine how much pressure will be pushing the
> aluminum up into the gap?
> You've probably thought of this, but some teflon or UHMW tape on the
> trailing edge would reduce abrasion of the paint on the lower skin of the
> aileron.
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
> <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Craig and others:
> >
> > I have been thinking about a strip of .016 aluminum riveted to the
bottom
> of
> > the wing the length of the aileron using the existing rivet holes. It
> could
> > be carefully bent upward (with a sheet brake) in such a way that it
holds
> > pressure against the aileron. Also, if necessary a slight bend could
be
> > made on the trailing edge (downward) to prevent it from snagging on
> > anything.
> >
> > This strip of aluminum could be installed permanently between the skin
> and
> > the rear channel using the existing rivet holes and painted with the
> wing.
> > If you are real clever, you could cut your bottom wing skins with this
> piece
> > sticking out.
> >
> > I am very close to this part of construction and I plan to try this
soon.
> I
> > will post some photos and comments on my website.
> >
> > Scott Laughlin
> > www.cooknwithgas.com
> >
> > Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying
Guide.
> >
> >
>
>
> Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Yes, this is sobering. Thanks Jeff.
No question, it should be run by Chris first.
Are there any wind tunnels available to us?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>
> >I have been thinking about a strip of .016 aluminum riveted to the bottom
> of the wing the length of the aileron using the existing rivet holes. It
could
> be carefully bent upward (with a sheet brake) in such a way that it holds
> pressure against the aileron. Also, if necessary a slight bend could be
> made on the trailing edge (downward) to prevent it from snagging on
> anything.
>
> +++ Anyone thinking of doing something along these lines should consider
the following NTSB report of the crash of the Cirrus prototype - a fatal
crash. To attach anything like aluminum or heavy, not readily pliable UHMW
to the gap under the aileron and not test it thoroughly in a wind tunnel is
to tempt fate. Even if the material is seemingly of a thickness and width
to preclude jamming in the aileron-wing gap, are you willing to place your
safety on the line?
>
> +++ If your interest is piqued along these lines seek out info on the
LoPresti or Knots2U sites and then talk with their engineers. And ask them
or Chris what might be the long range impact on the structural strength of
the aileron bottom skin as it undergoes pressure and rubbing on it (even if
protected by teflon tape) through hundreds of thousand cycles.
>
> NTSB Identification: CHI99FA112 . The docket is stored in the (offline)
NTSB Imaging System.
> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
> Accident occurred Tuesday, March 23, 1999 in DULUTH, MN
> Probable Cause Approval Date: 4/9/01
> Aircraft: Cirrus Design Corp. SR20, registration: N115CD
> Injuries: 1 Fatal.
> The experimental airplane was on a test flight when it impacted terrain
following an emergency landing attempt. The airplane was certified as an
experimental airplane for crew training. The airplane's aileron spring
cartridge and rudder-aileron interconnect had been removed for the test
flight. The airplane was loaded with ballast to provide an aft center of
gravity with stall tufts attached to both wings. During the test flight, the
company test pilot declared an emergency and reported a flight control
problem while maneuvering. Radar data indicates that 10 seconds prior to the
declaration of an emergency by the test pilot, the aircraft was in a stall
phase of flight. Postaccident inspection revealed that the right aileron
exhibited evidence of jamming with its wing cove/skin. In postaccident
testing of a similar SR20, a manual input pilot force was applied to the
side yoke control by a Cirrus Design Corporation (CDC) test pilot. A maximum
load of 85 pounds was achieved by !
> the test pilot by leaning forward and applying both hands on the side yoke
control. The control input could not be held indefinitely due to muscle
fatigue. During the control input, the right aileron was deflected 11
degrees with the left aileron clamped at the inboard rib. CDC test pilots
were not graduates of civilian or military flight test schools. The test
pilot was not equipped with a personal parachute. A gusting crosswind of
approximately 16 knots was present on the selected landing runway. The
airplane's maximum demonstrated crosswind component was 19 knots. All
runways were available at the time of the accident. CDC was not monitoring
radio communications with the accident pilot during the test flight.
>
> The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s)
of this accident as follows:
>
> the lack of sufficient aileron-to-wing gap clearance design. Contributing
factors were the inadequate oversight of the Federal Aviation Administration
of the design and manufacturing and flight test process of Cirrus Design
Corporation, the location of the control yoke, the inadequate surveillance
of the test flight and the test flight procedures by the Cirrus Design
Corporation. The destabilizing crosswind condition that existed on the
landing runway was an additional factor.
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Use of portable 12V heaters |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
Yes, I install a 12V heater in a gyroplane with a subaru 2.2. In order to get
one that puts out enough heat, it needs to be about 30 amps and that's not good.
It drew too many amps, when I turned the heater on the lights would dim. I
took it out and went to the factory recommendation. Which is what I am going
to do on my 701.
They(RAF)use a heater core out of a 67 Ford F-100 with a small 12v high speed fan
which you can get at Radio shack. I understand there is a Ford van heater
core which is aluminum, but I haven't been able to find out the year. It's fairly
simply to set up. Use some aluminum angle to make a bracket, bolt it to
what ever is convenient. Just leave about an inch of space between it and firewall
or where you put it. Attach the fan on the side toward the seats where it
will suck thru the core. No need to valve it unless you want to for safety reasons.
You won't notice any heat unless the fan is running. If you use shut
off valves you will have to valve both sides and install a crossover before the
valves. I did the valve thing on one of my gyros but it was almost a waste
of time, the only advantage was that I could barely open one valve to control
the heat without having to always turn the fan on and off. But don't forget the
crossover, in a Subaru the water must circulate or the engine will over heat.
Worked great in a gyro.
---
Message 21
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| Subject: | 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jensenm33@sbcglobal.net>
The wing loading is about 10 lbs./ft2. so there is not much loading.
Jerry Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
--> <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Scott,
I'm concerned that even though .016 is holding the aileron to the wing, it
is supported on both sides, whereas the gap seal would be supported on only
one. I wish we had a way to determine how much pressure would be on that
gap seal. Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
<cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
>
> Bob:
>
> My right wing is sitting on the bench upside right now. I'll put the
> aileron in place and take a photo tonight. The gap isn't that wide
> even
in
> the full up position, but there is still a gap in the neutral
> position.
>
> For clarification, I have the hinge-less ailerons and the gap I am
> talking about is on the bottom between the aileron and the wing. If
> you look at drawing 6-S-3 (Mine is dated 12/02), you can see the
> aileron deflection is 11.5 deg. from neutral in both directions (up
> and down).
>
> Closing this small gap may not make much difference, but it seems easy
> enough to do. As to your question about the pressure pushing up on
> the .016" aluminum, a strip of .016" aluminum is the only thing
> holding the aileron to the wing (not counting the control rod).
>
> A bigger issue is the top gap between the flap and the wing. I never
> saw the flaps in the "up" position on the Demo 601XL at ZAC to see
> what it
looks
> like in-flight. (they put them down for boarding and exiting the
aircraft.)
>
> This is fun, isn't it?
>
> Scott.
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:04:02 -0500
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
> <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> Scott,
> Just curious, as I've been considering this same mod. How did you
> arrive
at
> .016? Is there any way to determine how much pressure will be pushing
> the aluminum up into the gap? You've probably thought of this, but
> some teflon or UHMW tape on the trailing edge would reduce abrasion of
> the paint on the lower skin of the aileron.
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Aileron Trim & Deflection
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin"
> <cookwithgas@hotmail.com> >
> > Craig and others:
> >
> > I have been thinking about a strip of .016 aluminum riveted to the
bottom
> of
> > the wing the length of the aileron using the existing rivet holes.
> It could > be carefully bent upward (with a sheet brake) in such a
> way that it
holds
> > pressure against the aileron. Also, if necessary a slight bend
> could
be
> > made on the trailing edge (downward) to prevent it from snagging on
> > anything. >
> > This strip of aluminum could be installed permanently between the skin
> and
> > the rear channel using the existing rivet holes and painted with the
> wing.
> > If you are real clever, you could cut your bottom wing skins with this
> piece
> > sticking out.
> >
> > I am very close to this part of construction and I plan to try this
soon.
> I
> > will post some photos and comments on my website.
> >
> > Scott Laughlin
> > www.cooknwithgas.com
> >
> > Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying
Guide.
> >
> >
>
>
> Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
>
>
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