---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/29/04: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:19 AM - Re: Help needed with nose gear steering rods (Jeff Paden) 2. 04:57 AM - Re: Help needed with nose gear steering rods (Bob Miller) 3. 06:25 AM - Re:640 Show of hands (James Schulist) 4. 09:16 AM - Re: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins (mike honer) 5. 09:16 AM - Re: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins (mike honer) 6. 10:56 AM - Request: Information for Kitplanes Article (Instrument Panels) (Cory Emberson) 7. 11:15 AM - Re: New Builder Intro (Randall Thomure) 8. 11:50 AM - Re: Help needed with nose gear steering rods (Greg Ferris) 9. 12:04 PM - Re: Use of Portable 12V Heaters (John M. Goodings) 10. 01:45 PM - Re: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins (wizard-24@juno.com) 11. 02:07 PM - Re: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins (Joemotis@aol.com) 12. 04:48 PM - Re: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins (Benford2@aol.com) 13. 05:21 PM - 912 ul & VDO gages (Mike Sinclair) 14. 06:38 PM - RUDDER KIT (Joe Proctor) 15. 07:51 PM - Re: 912 ul & VDO gages (Tim & Diane Shankland) 16. 07:59 PM - Re: Inspection process in Ontario, Canada (Mark Townsend) 17. 08:16 PM - bing electric carb heaters (Hal Rozema) 18. 10:26 PM - Re: 912 ul & VDO gages (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:14 AM PST US From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help needed with nose gear steering rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" >>Hi Jeff. The 801 is the same design. All you need to do is make a seat for >>the front gear out of flat stock and do not machine the V groove in it. That >>will take all the centering effect out of it. Thank you, actually just after I posted my plea for help I had thought about just about the same fix. I was going to just make less of a V groove and keep cutting away the V groove until I get the feel that I expect from the rudder pedals. Thank you for your quick reply. Jeff Paden ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:57 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help needed with nose gear steering rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Jeff, You'll probably get lots of replies on this. If I understand you correctly, this is a problem that has been discussed much in the archives. Many people put a piece of UHMW material -I used a piece of 1/8" nylon sheet--between the top plate of the nosewheel strut and the shelf on which it rests/rotates. (This is on a 601, the 640 might be different) Also made nylon plates of the same stuff that mimic the V, but that extend only about 3/32 higher than the original V (so there's not as much pressure on them as before). Riveted and bolted them to the insides of the original V. This way I still get centering, but a lot less resistance, and none of that metal-to-metal contact. You might want to search the archives to see how others have done it. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: Help needed with nose gear steering rods > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > Can anyone assist me on the subject of nose gear steering rods? > > Today I connected my rudder cables and nose gear steering rods and then > lifted the nose gear off the ground to test my controls. I was VERY upset > to find out that it was VERY hard to move my rudder. This is because of the > design of the CH-640 nose gear. It sits in a V and is held down by the > bungee. Since the steering rods are solid rods the nose gear has to move to > move the rudder. It would be very difficult to use the rudder during flight > and I MUST find a way to change this. > > I am looking for any source to purchase what I would call normal nose gear > steering rods, you know, the ones that have a spring in them so that in > flight the nose gear can stay forward and when the rudder is being used. > Then on the ground the weight of the engine will take the load off the V > that the strut sits in and the rods should then push the nose gear for > steering. > > If anyone knows where I can purchase these steering rods PLEASE let me know. > > Thank you > > Jeff Paden > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:13 AM PST US From: "James Schulist" Subject: Zenith-List: re:640 Show of hands --> Zenith-List message posted by: "James Schulist" Thanks Larry, Matt, and Jeff for the responses. I did find the websites, and it is because of those that I have decided to go forth and conquer!. My plane is to, as I said order the odd part from ZAC and spend my time buildinng the stuff that looks enjoyable... Gonna keep browsing those sites so you can expect to hear more from me. Thanks again, Dave Schulist mrlassiter@wirefreeme.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:08 AM PST US From: "mike honer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins --> Zenith-List message posted by: "mike honer" I have just dummied up the flaps on my XL, made an aluminum flap profile and mounted it in place. I get no play at the end of the "flap" to speak of. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > There's about 18mm of play in the flaps on my XL (in other words, if you > manually grab the aft end of the flap and try to move it, it will move up > about 18mm). Is this about the same as other XL's out there, or is it too > much play? I know you can move the Cessnas' flaps by hand about the same > amount, but this plane is much lighter so I'm concerned about flutter > problems while in flight. > > Also, how has everyone been installing their hinge pins, so that you can > remove them later if necessary? I'm aware of the methods used to stop the > pin from working its way out of the hinge, but unless you leave the pin > longer than needed (without bending the end), how would you get it out > again if need be? > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:08 AM PST US From: "mike honer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins --> Zenith-List message posted by: "mike honer" omething is moving...Things to look at are: 1. front end of the actuator: bushing installed OK? 2. seat back channel moving? it should not. 3. good fit between the torque tube and the end bearings? I used a 1 inch hole saw and lots of cutting fluid to get a good clean tight fit. 4. fit between crank pin and hole in the flap...should also be tight with no appreciable play. I have a letter from Chris Heintz that allows me to slot the hole in the direction of the crank arm if I don't get a good fit. 4. with that much play. unless you are using gorilla force, something should will go clunk when you shake the flap, and that will be the problem. Hinge Pin: I like the way Cessna does it, with a .060" diameter through hole and a cotter pin at the end of the hinge. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > There's about 18mm of play in the flaps on my XL (in other words, if you > manually grab the aft end of the flap and try to move it, it will move up > about 18mm). Is this about the same as other XL's out there, or is it too > much play? I know you can move the Cessnas' flaps by hand about the same > amount, but this plane is much lighter so I'm concerned about flutter > problems while in flight. > > Also, how has everyone been installing their hinge pins, so that you can > remove them later if necessary? I'm aware of the methods used to stop the > pin from working its way out of the hinge, but unless you leave the pin > longer than needed (without bending the end), how would you get it out > again if need be? > > Thanks, > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:38 AM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: Zenith-List: Request: Information for Kitplanes Article (Instrument Panels) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" Hello! I am writing an article for Kitplanes magazines that will feature builders who have put interesting panels in their planes. My deadline is rather short, so if you could email me as soon as possible, hopefully by Monday, that will give me enough time to put it together. Here are some of the criteria I'm looking for: Instrument Panels that are (one or any combination): 1. creative 2. inexpensive 3. nontraditional configuration 4. nontraditional equipment 5. easier to use 6. enhanced safety (maybe the configuration made a significant difference in troubleshooting/recognizing a problem, or in putting the plane down safely because of its ease of use) 7. generally cool and different 8. anything else distinctive about it. Other things to keep in mind: 1. How you came to design your panel (How you got your idea) 2. The reasons why you did it as you did 3. What benefits you had in mind 4. Any unexpected benefits (and/or pitfalls) there were 5. What you learned 6. How many hours you've flown with it (if completed) 7. How it's performed 8. The equipment and tools you used 9. How much time it took to build and install 10. Whether it took any professional or amateur assistance 11. The cost of building it. Here are the photo requirements for Kitplanes: Photos must be 300 dpi at a size large enough to use in the magazine, which is usually at least 3 x 3 inches. If an image is 300 dpi at 1 x 1 inch, it won't be big enough to do any good. By the way, I will be compiling another roundup in early March for distinctive (etc.) interiors and/or exteriors, so if you would like to contact me about that one, I'd love to hear from you! Thanks so much - I really appreciate your help! best regards, Cory Emberson Hayward, CA [KHWD] 510.599.4409 cory@lightspeededit.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:27 AM PST US From: "Randall Thomure" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: New Builder Intro --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randall Thomure" Jack & Dan, Welcome to the Zenith 601XL group. I too looked very seriously at the RV's before deciding on the 601XL. It was a choice between the 601XL and the RV-9A. When I added up the time to build, my level of building experience (read zero), cost including engine and the lack of rivets, the 601XL was only way for me to go. I would be happy to share/show you my progress to date. I am a kit builder and finished with the rudder and tail. I am holding off on ordering the wing kits until later because of other summer activities. You're welcome to come down and look at my set up and work to date. I'm located in Frankfort, about 25 miles south of the Loop. Again, welcome to the Zenith group - you've made the right choice. Randy Thomure 601XL Kit Builder Rudder & Tail ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:45 AM PST US From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help needed with nose gear steering rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" I used UHMW in my nosegear setup with a shallower V to give at least some feel of the center position, but with less force required for deflection. That being said, the rudder self centers to a point, but if one deflects the rudder to one side, it doesn't really get back to center without help. Fortunately there is almost no adverse yaw, so the rudder is primarily used in takeoff (where the friction actually holds against the P factor (poor mans rudder trim) and during crosswind landing. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Help needed with nose gear steering rods > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > Jeff, > You'll probably get lots of replies on this. If I understand you correctly, > this is a problem that has been discussed much in the archives. Many > people put a piece of UHMW material -I used a piece of 1/8" nylon > sheet--between the top plate of the nosewheel strut and the shelf on which > it rests/rotates. (This is on a 601, the 640 might be different) Also made > nylon plates of the same stuff that mimic the V, but that extend only about > 3/32 higher than the original V (so there's not as much pressure on them as > before). Riveted and bolted them to the insides of the original V. This way > I still get centering, but a lot less resistance, and none of that > metal-to-metal contact. You might want to search the archives to see how > others have done it. > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Paden" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: Help needed with nose gear steering rods > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" > > > > Can anyone assist me on the subject of nose gear steering rods? > > > > Today I connected my rudder cables and nose gear steering rods and then > > lifted the nose gear off the ground to test my controls. I was VERY upset > > to find out that it was VERY hard to move my rudder. This is because of > the > > design of the CH-640 nose gear. It sits in a V and is held down by the > > bungee. Since the steering rods are solid rods the nose gear has to move > to > > move the rudder. It would be very difficult to use the rudder during > flight > > and I MUST find a way to change this. > > > > I am looking for any source to purchase what I would call normal nose gear > > steering rods, you know, the ones that have a spring in them so that in > > flight the nose gear can stay forward and when the rudder is being used. > > Then on the ground the weight of the engine will take the load off the V > > that the strut sits in and the rods should then push the nose gear for > > steering. > > > > If anyone knows where I can purchase these steering rods PLEASE let me > know. > > > > Thank you > > > > Jeff Paden > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:34 PM PST US From: "John M. Goodings" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Use of Portable 12V Heaters --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John M. Goodings" My comment refers to the best use of the 250W Rotax alternator current of about 17 or 18 amps, specifically LANDING LIGHTS. Don't use the 100W variety. 50W halogen lamps of the same size and shape are now available. I think they give slightly more light than the old 100W bulbs. Thus, the halogen bulbs require about 4 amps instead of about 8 amps. John Goodings. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > 4. fit between crank pin and hole in the flap...should also be tight > with no appreciable play. I have a letter from Chris Heintz that allows me > to slot the hole in the direction of the crank arm if I don't get a good > fit. That is precisely what caused my problem. I had to enlarge that hole, because although it aligned ok with the flap in the netral position, when trying to lower the flaps it would bind. So, I enlarged the hole, which solved that problem, not thinking about the play I would end up with. I didn't think of using the mock flap to get things lined up -- and this is yet another part of the construction process that ZAC's builders manual doesn't even touch on. Guess I'll have to check with ZAC to see if the 18mm play is too much. If it is, then my only option seems to be pulling the damn things off and starting over, which I'm less than excited about. 3 steps forward, 2 steps backward...or is it the other way around? Mike Fortunato 601XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:03 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com Hey Mike This sounds like deja vu all over again. I layed out the fuel lines in NR 1,2,3,and 4. Did it in pencil, for a nice precise layout. All set to drill. Then Momma calls for dinner (and Moi has never been accused of missing a meal) so a great dinner it was. So back to the garage for round 2. I pick up the drill and drill a beautiful 13/16 hole with a brand new unibit right in the tooling hole on NR 1,2 and 3 don't even see my "precision" layout. A pleasant call to Shirley at ZAC, plus a $95.16 ding and were still moving. But is it forward or backwards? Numbers confuse me... Cheers Joe Motis 601 XL starting wing Do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:15 PM PST US From: Benford2@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL Flaps & hinge pins --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com In a message dated 2/29/2004 2:46:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, wizard-24@juno.com writes: > > > Guess I'll have to check with ZAC to see if the 18mm play is too much. If > it is, then my only option seems to be pulling the damn things off and > starting over, which I'm less than excited about. 3 steps forward, 2 > steps backward...or is it the other way around? > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > I can assure you 18 mm will kill you from the flutter. Don't even think about it.. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:44 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Zenith-List: 912 ul & VDO gages --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Hi all Looking for someone that has had experience in this area. I've got the VDO engine gages that were provided by Zenith in the kit but have not really located a drawing for wiring. Feel free to correct me if you think I may be headed in the wrong direction. The oil temp, press, & water temp gages have 3 prongs. One marked + that I believe is power, that can be hooked in series from the essential fuse block. Another that is marked with an S, that I think should connect to the appropriate sensors on the engine. And the 3rd that I would imagine goes to a ground. If someone should happen to have a sketch or description of how they have wired their gages I would be a very appreciative. Next, the VDO volt gage, It has 2 prongs. One is marked +, and again I suspect that it comes from a positive feed of the fuse block. The main question I have is, where does the other prong tie into the system? I'm completely stumped on this one. I know there must have been a reason that this was included in the kit, but no info on how it should be hooked up. Zenith provided a very basic diagram, but has neglected to supply anything usable. Again, all replies are appreciated. Mike Sinclair Augusta, Kansas 701 taildragger, 98% done with wiring, need to finish firewall insullation and close nose skin, then I'm ready to hang wings. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:13 PM PST US From: "Joe Proctor" Subject: Zenith-List: RUDDER KIT --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" Hi all I have a 601 XL Rudder Kit available for sale. Still in the box with all the Parts and Manual included. You pay shipping from Portland OR. Best Offer. Joe Proctor pjoe2@qwest.net ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:33 PM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 ul & VDO gages --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland Mike, Voltmeters have one side connected to the positive and the other to ground pick your place. Tim Shankland Mike Sinclair wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > >Hi all > > Looking for someone that has had experience in this area. I've got the VDO engine >gages that were provided by Zenith in the kit but have not really located a drawing >for wiring. Feel free to correct me if you think I may be headed in the wrong >direction. The oil temp, press, & water temp gages have 3 prongs. One marked + that >I believe is power, that can be hooked in series from the essential fuse block. >Another that is marked with an S, that I think should connect to the appropriate >sensors on the engine. And the 3rd that I would imagine goes to a ground. If someone >should happen to have a sketch or description of how they have wired their gages I >would be a very appreciative. > > Next, the VDO volt gage, It has 2 prongs. One is marked +, and again I suspect >that it comes from a positive feed of the fuse block. The main question I have is, >where does the other prong tie into the system? I'm completely stumped on this one. >I know there must have been a reason that this was included in the kit, but no info >on how it should be hooked up. Zenith provided a very basic diagram, but has >neglected to supply anything usable. > >Again, all replies are appreciated. > >Mike Sinclair >Augusta, Kansas >701 taildragger, 98% done with wiring, need to finish firewall insullation and close >nose skin, then I'm ready to hang wings. > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:47 PM PST US From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Inspection process in Ontario, Canada --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca> You can apply to Wayne Juniper at Transport Canada for a Ministry inspection but you will have better luck with the MD-RA not to mention you will need a really great reason for transport to even talk to you about inspections. You will need two inspections, a pre-close and a final. Plus you need to have a letter of intent registered with the MD-RA. You may want to pick up the RAA's builders Manual. It has all the information and forms you will need from start to finishing a homebuilt in Canada. Mark Townsend 601XL EJ-2.2 Alma, Ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarek M. Walter" Subject: Zenith-List: Inspection process in Ontario, Canada > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jarek M. Walter" > > > For all of you building in Ontario: > I'm getting a little bit confused about the required inspection process > here - who to contact and what inspections are required. Is it mandatory > to use www.md-ra.com services? Thanks. > Jarek M. Walter > Ch 701 > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:04 PM PST US From: Hal Rozema ZENITH GROUP Subject: Zenith-List: bing electric carb heaters --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema E-mail me off list if you know where I can by one Hal Rozema ThePlaneFolks.Net VSTOL CH701 Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:53 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 ul & VDO gages --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair > > direction. The oil temp, press, & water temp gages have 3 prongs. One marked + > that > I believe is power, that can be hooked in series from the essential fuse block. > Another that is marked with an S, that I think should connect to the appropriate > sensors on the engine. And the 3rd that I would imagine goes to a ground. If That's correct. > > Next, the VDO volt gage, It has 2 prongs. One is marked +, and again I > suspect > that it comes from a positive feed of the fuse block. The main question I have > is, > where does the other prong tie into the system? I'm completely stumped on this > one. The voltmeter gets a positive voltage connection and a negative (ground) connection. Bryan Martin