Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:44 AM - Re: Rivet gun (Mick Kaye)
2. 04:51 AM - Battery Contactor (Bob Miller)
3. 04:59 AM - Re: Rivet gun (Bryan Martin)
4. 05:38 AM - Re: Rivet gun (Scott Laughlin)
5. 06:02 AM - Flight Sims (KEITH B SHOAPS)
6. 06:22 AM - Jabiru 3300 Alternator output (Trampas)
7. 06:55 AM - Hole/grommet size design flaw on the dual stick control hinge plate (Bill Howerton)
8. 07:05 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Alternator output (Jeff Small)
9. 07:12 AM - Re: Primer (Dan knezacek)
10. 07:21 AM - Re: Flight Sims (Philip A. C.)
11. 09:16 AM - Re: Flight Sims (Gordon Duke)
12. 09:37 AM - Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
13. 10:37 AM - Re: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
14. 10:37 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
15. 10:48 AM - Re: Battery Contactor (Chuck Deiterich)
16. 11:23 AM - Re: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition (Weston, Jim)
17. 11:29 AM - Re: cockpit fam (wizard-24@juno.com)
18. 02:05 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bill Steer)
19. 02:07 PM - Re: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition (Larry McFarland)
20. 02:21 PM - RE.701 flap control mount (roy vickski)
21. 02:40 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
22. 02:46 PM - Re: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
23. 03:09 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Michel Therrien)
24. 03:24 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bill Steer)
25. 03:31 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
26. 03:37 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
27. 03:50 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
28. 03:57 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
29. 03:57 PM - FOR SALE (Dave Pepper)
30. 03:58 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
31. 04:13 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
32. 04:17 PM - Re: Aileron Trim, pro or con (Greg Ferris)
33. 04:20 PM - Re: the contactor (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com)
34. 04:33 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
35. 04:37 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
36. 04:50 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
37. 04:56 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
38. 04:57 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Jeff Small)
39. 05:08 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Mark Townsend)
40. 05:33 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Larry Martin)
41. 05:55 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
42. 05:57 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Jeffrey Davidson)
43. 05:59 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
44. 06:16 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Cy Galley)
45. 06:31 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
46. 06:34 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Larry Martin)
47. 06:48 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Dave Pepper)
48. 07:02 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Thomas F Marson)
49. 07:24 PM - Rivets (Dave & Darlene)
50. 07:41 PM - Re: Rivets (Jim and Lucy)
51. 07:55 PM - Re: Rivets (Jarek M. Walter)
52. 08:00 PM - Re: Rivets (Mike Fothergill)
53. 08:13 PM - HD Wing Tanks F Sale (Jim and Lucy)
54. 08:15 PM - Riveter (Dave & Darlene)
55. 08:39 PM - Re: HD Wing Tanks F Sale (Dave Pepper)
56. 08:45 PM - Re: HD Wing Tanks F Sale (Dave & Darlene)
57. 09:20 PM - Re: Rivets (Duane Evans)
58. 11:48 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Peter Franke)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mick Kaye" <microlightmick@blueyonder.co.uk>
Dave & Darlene,
A std rivet gun is not to be used on the 120 degree rivet heads as it will
try to pull the rivet into the alloy and the strength will not be there, the
head of the rivet gun must be counter bored like one half of a 1/4" ball
bearing, the heads are very hard so I used a shaped masonry bit in the lathe
and works a treat. On such an important tool as this you would think that a
kit would come with special tools ? or at least an option to buy them.
Mick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet gun
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
<dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>
> Will a standard rivet gun work for riveting. I see where they talk about
the dimple etc.
> Dave
Message 2
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| Subject: | Battery Contactor |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
It seems a battery contactor is a good idea, but those of us with the Jabiru 2200
engines only get about 10amps useful out of the alternator, and can hardly
afford to spend one of those on a contactor. Has anybody come up with a design
for a manually engaged contactor, possibly using a standard push-pull cable
from the cockpit?
Bob
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
I believe Zenith will sell you a riveter with the special heads or you can
send in your heads and they will grind them. It isn't hard to make the
modification to the heads. The heads are hardened so you can't touch them
with a drill bit. I chucked my heads in my drill and turned them while
grinding with a small grinding bit in a dremel tool. Pull a few test rivets
as you go until the result is acceptable.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Nearly done.
do not archive.
on 3/29/04 3:41 AM, Mick Kaye at microlightmick@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mick Kaye"
> <microlightmick@blueyonder.co.uk>
>
> Dave & Darlene,
> A std rivet gun is not to be used on the 120 degree rivet heads as it will
> try to pull the rivet into the alloy and the strength will not be there, the
> head of the rivet gun must be counter bored like one half of a 1/4" ball
> bearing, the heads are very hard so I used a shaped masonry bit in the lathe
> and works a treat. On such an important tool as this you would think that a
> kit would come with special tools ? or at least an option to buy them.
> Mick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
> To: <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet gun
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
> <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>>
>> Will a standard rivet gun work for riveting. I see where they talk about
> the dimple etc.
>> Dave
>
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
Dave:
Harbor Freight sells a pneumatic rivet gun on sale for $34.99 right now.
You can see the tool at:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=167
I purchased this tool, then mailed the rivet heads to ZAC. They machined
them for $7 each and mailed them back to me. Hard to beat that deal.
I use a 50', 1/2" air hose with no regulator. My compressor shuts off at
120 psig. It has not damaged this riveter 1 year of use.
Good luck,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet gun
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
<dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Will a standard rivet gun work for riveting. I see where they talk about
the dimple etc.
Dave
http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "KEITH B SHOAPS" <kshoaps@verizon.net>
Does anyone know of a 701 file for FS 2004 that "flies" similarly to a real 701?
The files on the ZAC site are for FS 2000 but work on FS 2004--are they fairly
good approximations of reality?
thanks
Keith
"Wife 80% convinced--90% to go."
Message 6
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| Subject: | Jabiru 3300 Alternator output |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Hello,
My father-in-law just started his engine on his CH601 for the first time
this weekend. We noticed that the alternator seemed to only charge when
engine was around 2000 RPMs and then only a couple of amps. Does anyone else
use the 3300 and is this normal? If not could you provide the wiring diagram
for your regulator?
Regards,
Trampas Stern
www.sterntech.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Hole/grommet size design flaw on the dual stick control hinge |
plate
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" <Bill@Howerton.com>
I just installed my dual sticks in my plane this weekend. While the design was
pretty straightforward, there were a few issues to be dealt with -
The first was the need to create a custom 3/8" wrench to thread the nuts onto the
AN-3-5 bolts holding the uprights onto the wing spar (not so much a difficulty
to manufacture - but a major pain in the butt to accomplish) It required taping
the nut into the wrench's head then snaking in between the inner spar assemblies.
Definitely took some finesse and a great deal of patience.
The second, and the one I'm writing about today, is that there is a flaw in the
designs. If you look at the design sheet, it calls for a 13/16" hole to be drilled
in the center of the control hinge plates for fuel line routing using the
supplied AN 931-4-7 grommets (that part number is even in the plans themselves).
The problem is this: Those grommets are way too small for that size hole.
They are for a 3/8" hole - the pass right through a 13/16" hole. I spoke
to Nick this morning, and he was surprised no one noticed that before -- which
is why I'm writing this morning. He assured me that the hole size is correct
(whew!), but that grommet is incorrect, that it really needs an 8-13 sized
grommet, and that he will send me out the new grommets, and will amend the plans
accordingly.
Thought you guys should know....
Bill Howerton - N714BH
601XL Corvair
Tail complete, Fuselage 90% (currently sitting in it, making airplane noises -
now with a stick in my hand)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Alternator output |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:07:34 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
>My father-in-law just started his engine on his CH601 for the first time
>this weekend. We noticed that the alternator seemed to only charge when
>engine was around 2000 RPMs and then only a couple of amps. Does anyone else
>use the 3300 and is this normal? If not could you provide the wiring diagram
>for your regulator?
Trampas,
Direct this question to Pete Krotje at info@usjabiru.com or Andy at info@auncoastjabiru.com
My 3300 has the older style regulator and a diagram would be of little help. You
can go to
http://www.suncoastjabiru.com/
and click on "downloads" along the left side of the page. That will take you to
updated files containing the latest info from Jabiru UA which includes wiring
diagrams.
In the future it would benefit builders installing the Jab to tell whether you
have the Jabiru or the Zenith firewall forward kit when you have a question.
This question is generic to all Jab installations but some of the other questions
that arise will differ.
tailwinds jeff HDS/3300
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" <dknezace@bconnex.net>
One thing one must be careful of when using self-etching primer is that it
must be compatible with the paint you are using.
When I painted my plane I had one litre (approx. 1 quart) of self-etching
primer I got with the paint. Being an unskilled amateur I used it all up on
the left wing, horizontal stabilizer, and rudder. (I didn't realize that a
very thin layer was all that was required.)
I spoke to the guy who owned the paint booth and he had some other
self-etching primer of a different brand. I used that and continued
painting.
Now, five years later, the left wing, horizontal stabilizer, and rudder are
the only places it is not peeling! The left wing, horizontal stabilizer,
and rudder look really good!
A hard lesson learned: Paint compatibility is extremely important!
Dan Knezacek
CH-601 EA81 soob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Primer
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
<dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>
> Tried to find a correct answer on matronics.com but couldn't.
> From Alberta and wondering where to get some aluminium primer. Will
automaotive primers work. I was told the red oxide is okay.
> dave
>
>
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip A. C." <paclimited@hotmail.com>
Keith,
Hate to do this on a Zenith site... But have you tried the Savannah files,
link on www.icp.it? They are much better than the 701 files on ZAC site.
On the other hand, if you google around the net, you may get some good 701
files. If you do, let me know...
Philip
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" <gduke@csom.umn.edu>
Hi Keith:
I haven't been able to find fs2004 ch701 files, but there is
a good ch801 file at http://www.fsplanet.com/23012003.htm.
== Gordon Duke
St. Paul, MN USA
701 rudder
do not archive
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "KEITH B SHOAPS" <kshoaps@verizon.net>
Does anyone know of a 701 file for FS 2004 that "flies" similarly to a real
701? The files on the ZAC site are for FS 2000 but work on FS 2004--are they
fairly good approximations of reality?
thanks
Keith
"Wife 80% convinced--90% to go."
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Dear List,
I decided to eliminate the header tank in my 601. I'll have a tank in each wing,
plumbed through a selector valve. My question is what type of selector would
be optimal........an L BOTH R OFF.......or an L R OFF only. If the low
wing tank in a turn became unported, fuel flow to the engine could stop without
a BOTH position, right? Is it possible to have both fuel pumps on at the same
time supplying the engine from both tanks, or are there problems there? I know
that many low wing aircraft do not have a BOTH position.
Are there any comments from the experts? Thanks
Dave
601/912S
Message 13
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| Subject: | Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Its up to you of course but there is no way I would attempt a take off
(especially with the feeble Nippon Denso ignitor chip) without BOTH
ignitions running simultaneously.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Andrew,
I wired the ignition switch to the selective a-b toggle switch using 16 Ga
and all else pretty much throughout. The Hot bus to the ignition switch is
16 Ga and the fuse is a 7 amp. These components are separated from heavy
voltage etc because of contactors. You need the handbook "The AeroElectric
Connection" for aircraft electrical systems published by Bob Nuckolls. For
$35 it's a real bargan. See aeroelectric.com and the related Matronics list
to get information that is probably more comprehensive.
Larry McFarland
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
<ansancle@townisp.com>
>
> Question on Stratus Dual Ignition.
> I am currently wiring the toggle switch that will control which
> ignition is active, primary or backup. The question I have is what
> gauge wire (I'm thinking 12 based on what I have read to date) and
> what size fuse (30 amp - based on what was in firewall forward stuff).
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601 HDS Stratus EA-81
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ahh...my favourite subject.
If you search the archives you will see I dislike sucking on fuel AT
ALL...but I won't dig all that up again....Remember that "proper" airplanes
run Avgas which will not vapour lock as easily as autofuel...so they can get
away with sucking on it more.
I do not use a selector valve. I buried a fuel pump in the inboard wing
(last bay next to the tank) and a 3/8" flex to connect to the tank to
minimise pressure drop. Then 1/4" from the pump to the gascolator just ahead
of the spar in the middle of the cabin. I used a check valve in each line to
prevent the fuel backflowing through a switched off pump.
I wired each pump from each battery therby not relying on a single
electrical feed.
I balance out my fuel burn by switching each pump...I.e each pump supplies
from one tank, and I run both pumps for TO and landing. In real life it
works great.
I can tell you you will NOT unport a nearly empty tank in a coordintaed
turn...I tried it!
Frank
601 Stratus, Ram heads 317 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
--> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Dear List,
I decided to eliminate the header tank in my 601. I'll have a tank in each
wing, plumbed through a selector valve. My question is what type of selector
would be optimal........an L BOTH R OFF.......or an L R OFF only. If
the low wing tank in a turn became unported, fuel flow to the engine could
stop without a BOTH position, right? Is it possible to have both fuel pumps
on at the same time supplying the engine from both tanks, or are there
problems there? I know that many low wing aircraft do not have a BOTH
position.
Are there any comments from the experts? Thanks
Dave
601/912S
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
I used a standard auto ignition switch for the master and starter. I use a
guarded toggle switch each for the mags. Works fine. The starter solenoid
is activated by the starter position on the ignition switch. All the
currents for the other things go through the on position of the ignition
switch. I have a fuse at the battery that goes to the ignition switch and
then fuse each of other items between the ignition switch and the item
itself. I used fuses on the panel as they are light and can be used to turn
of an item if the switch fails. I often pull the turn and bank gyro fuse
when ground testing other things while the "master" is on.
Chuck D.
N701TX
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Battery Contactor
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
<drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> It seems a battery contactor is a good idea, but those of us with the
Jabiru 2200 engines only get about 10amps useful out of the alternator, and
can hardly afford to spend one of those on a contactor. Has anybody come
up with a design for a manually engaged contactor, possibly using a
standard push-pull cable from the cockpit?
>
> Bob
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston, Jim" <Jim.Weston@delta.com>
As you say, it's up to the individual. But I can tell you that, since I
wired mine on a toggle switch, it doesn't' take long to decide to flip
that switch. Back when I was having problems with my ignition, during
the first 40 hours, I had the ignition quit on takeoff at about 150 ft
above ground. I can tell you that it only took me about 10 nanoseconds
to decide to flip that switch when the engine got quiet. The other
ignition picked up and I continued my climb and a hasty return to the
runway. I mounted my switch right by my throttle control, so I only had
to move my hand about one inch.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HINDE,FRANK
(HP-Corvallis,ex1)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
--> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Its up to you of course but there is no way I would attempt a take off
(especially with the feeble Nippon Denso ignitor chip) without BOTH
ignitions running simultaneously.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Andrew,
I wired the ignition switch to the selective a-b toggle switch using 16
Ga and all else pretty much throughout. The Hot bus to the ignition
switch is 16 Ga and the fuse is a 7 amp. These components are separated
from heavy voltage etc because of contactors. You need the handbook
"The AeroElectric Connection" for aircraft electrical systems published
by Bob Nuckolls. For $35 it's a real bargan. See aeroelectric.com and
the related Matronics list to get information that is probably more
comprehensive.
Larry McFarland
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
<ansancle@townisp.com>
>
> Question on Stratus Dual Ignition.
> I am currently wiring the toggle switch that will control which
> ignition is active, primary or backup. The question I have is what
> gauge wire (I'm thinking 12 based on what I have read to date) and
> what size fuse (30 amp - based on what was in firewall forward stuff).
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
> 601 HDS Stratus EA-81
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
I also can show my XL project in progress. I live in Alta Loma, CA. Not
finished yet, but you can sit in it and make airplane noises. :)
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned installing a fuel selector
like you describe, but didn't say which one. I decided to go with
individual valves, one in each fuel line coming from the tanks. And, while
the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check valves, I also
installed a separate check valve in each line. My lines come together at
the "gascolator" in the center of the plane, just forward of the spar.
I'm not flying yet, so can't tell you how it works in flight, but I know
some other folks have used this same type of setup.
Hope this helps.
Bill
> I decided to eliminate the header tank in my 601. I'll have a tank in each
wing, plumbed through a selector valve. My question is what type of selector
would be optimal........an L BOTH R OFF.......or an L R OFF only. If
the low wing tank in a turn became unported, fuel flow to the engine could
stop without a BOTH position, right? Is it possible to have both fuel pumps
on at the same time supplying the engine from both tanks, or are there
problems there? I know that many low wing aircraft do not have a BOTH
position.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
Without the switch, how would one know if one of the sides had died
until the second one quit? Do I need a three position switch to check both
sides and then run on both?
Larry
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Its up to you of course but there is no way I would attempt a take off
> (especially with the feeble Nippon Denso ignitor chip) without BOTH
> ignitions running simultaneously.
>
> Frank
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE.701 flap control mount |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski <rvickski@yahoo.com>
If you havn't got your seat back built yet then no
problem, build to plan then adjust your bearing
accordingly (if necessary) when you get to it.
Roy
701 plans also
do not archive
__________________________________
Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on auto
fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I don't
see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have to
coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a trip into
the trees in the making.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned installing a fuel selector
like you describe, but didn't say which one. I decided to go with
individual valves, one in each fuel line coming from the tanks. And, while
the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check valves, I also
installed a separate check valve in each line. My lines come together at
the "gascolator" in the center of the plane, just forward of the spar.
I'm not flying yet, so can't tell you how it works in flight, but I know
some other folks have used this same type of setup.
Hope this helps.
Bill
> I decided to eliminate the header tank in my 601. I'll have a tank in
> each
wing, plumbed through a selector valve. My question is what type of selector
would be optimal........an L BOTH R OFF.......or an L R OFF only. If
the low wing tank in a turn became unported, fuel flow to the engine could
stop without a BOTH position, right? Is it possible to have both fuel pumps
on at the same time supplying the engine from both tanks, or are there
problems there? I know that many low wing aircraft do not have a BOTH
position.
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I use a simple on/off switch for the second system (primary system Is
through ignition switch)...I do have mine both linked to the tachometer via
a flip flop switch but I can't recommend it as if you have an internal short
in the switch it could take out both systems...I keep meaning to disconnect
mine.
Just remember to turn off the second system upon landing before you try to
turn off the igniton...Not a problem in reality.
But anyway, when you switch the second system on you will hear/feel the
engine RPM pick up slightly...Its quite noticable on mine.
I would definatly not use a left/right/both switch for the same reason...I.e
it's a single point of failure.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Frank,
Without the switch, how would one know if one of the sides had died until
the second one quit? Do I need a three position switch to check both sides
and then run on both?
Larry
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Stratus EA-81 Dual Ignition
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Its up to you of course but there is no way I would attempt a take off
> (especially with the feeble Nippon Denso ignitor chip) without BOTH
> ignitions running simultaneously.
>
> Frank
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
When I installed my fuel system, I found that the
check valve within the facet pump is not perfect.
Like you did, I installed a check valve and I measured
the back flow again.
I noticed that the flow to the other tank (in fact, I
had a tube dropping fuel in a glass bottle so I can
measure the flow) increased significantly when a check
valve was in series with the pump. Yes, the check
valve was mounted in the proper orientation.
I also noticed a clicking sound in the check valve.
Here is the note I left on my website:
"Fuel pump check valve test
I checked how much gas was flowing through the system
in the opposite tank. Well, there is a leak. The
fuel pump has internal check valves, but they are not
perfect. I tried putting a check valve in series with
the fuel pump and the result is worse! Instead of
about 0.5 to 0.8 liter per hour, I get 3 to 4 liter
per hour of cross-transfer. This may be explained by
the fact that two check valve in series somewhat
cancel their capabilities (there is no flow to push
the ball or diaphragm in the check valve). I removed
the check valve I put in there (and had to replace a
segment of fuel line)."
Michel
--- Bill Steer <bsteer@gwi.net> wrote:
> I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned
> ... And, while
> the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check
> valves, I also
> installed a separate check valve in each line. ...
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
They sit between the two outermost ribs of the center wing section. I made
mounting brackets that are riveted to the ribs. The outboard fitting on the
pump is just outboard of the rib. Then there's 3/8" aluminum tubing between
the pump and the cockpit, where the shutoff valves and check valves are
located. I plan to just leave the valves both open all the time. That's
why the redundant check valves were installed.
Bill
>
> Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
auto
> fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
>
> If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I don't
> see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have to
> coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a trip
into
> the trees in the making.
Message 25
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Thanks Frank. Now, for an interesting question to you. What happens when
you do a crosswind approach with one wing low and opposite
rudder........won't that unport the fuel line if the tank is low? :{)
I like your idea of no fuel selector and gascolator ahead of the center
spar. Seems like simplicity is the way to be.
Dave
> Ahh...my favourite subject.
>
> If you search the archives you will see I dislike sucking on fuel AT
> ALL...but I won't dig all that up again....Remember that "proper"
airplanes
> run Avgas which will not vapour lock as easily as autofuel...so they can
get
> away with sucking on it more.
>
> I do not use a selector valve. I buried a fuel pump in the inboard wing
> (last bay next to the tank) and a 3/8" flex to connect to the tank to
> minimise pressure drop. Then 1/4" from the pump to the gascolator just
ahead
> of the spar in the middle of the cabin. I used a check valve in each line
to
> prevent the fuel backflowing through a switched off pump.
>
> I wired each pump from each battery therby not relying on a single
> electrical feed.
>
> I balance out my fuel burn by switching each pump...I.e each pump supplies
> from one tank, and I run both pumps for TO and landing. In real life it
> works great.
>
> I can tell you you will NOT unport a nearly empty tank in a coordintaed
> turn...I tried it!
>
> Frank
> 601 Stratus, Ram heads 317 hours
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Thanks Bill. Your setup seems to be popular. And the less fuel connections
inside the cockpit, the better. I would guess that a selector with a BOTH
position is the same as separate valves from each tank open simultaneously.
Dave
>
> I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned installing a fuel
selector
> like you describe, but didn't say which one. I decided to go with
> individual valves, one in each fuel line coming from the tanks. And,
while
> the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check valves, I also
> installed a separate check valve in each line. My lines come together at
> the "gascolator" in the center of the plane, just forward of the spar.
>
> I'm not flying yet, so can't tell you how it works in flight, but I know
> some other folks have used this same type of setup.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Bill
>
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a return
line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or soldered
closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel to
return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine compartment?
(probably a stupid question).
I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to which
all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
line.
They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I could
obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
Thanks.....Dave
> Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
auto
> fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
>
> If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I don't
> see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have to
> coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a trip
into
> the trees in the making.
>
> Frank
>
Message 28
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Wow!...Fist time I ever heard of that!...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
When I installed my fuel system, I found that the
check valve within the facet pump is not perfect.
Like you did, I installed a check valve and I measured
the back flow again.
I noticed that the flow to the other tank (in fact, I
had a tube dropping fuel in a glass bottle so I can
measure the flow) increased significantly when a check
valve was in series with the pump. Yes, the check
valve was mounted in the proper orientation.
I also noticed a clicking sound in the check valve.
Here is the note I left on my website:
"Fuel pump check valve test
I checked how much gas was flowing through the system
in the opposite tank. Well, there is a leak. The
fuel pump has internal check valves, but they are not
perfect. I tried putting a check valve in series with
the fuel pump and the result is worse! Instead of
about 0.5 to 0.8 liter per hour, I get 3 to 4 liter
per hour of cross-transfer. This may be explained by
the fact that two check valve in series somewhat
cancel their capabilities (there is no flow to push
the ball or diaphragm in the check valve). I removed
the check valve I put in there (and had to replace a
segment of fuel line)."
Michel
--- Bill Steer <bsteer@gwi.net> wrote:
> I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned
> ... And, while
> the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check
> valves, I also
> installed a separate check valve in each line. ...
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 29
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
For Sale: 16 gallon welded aluminium header tank for 601HD/HDS. Includes three
ports at the top and three ports on the bottom (including the fuel shutoff valve
on the center port). Professionally welded and leak tested. $300 firm plus
shipping.
Thanks....Dave
Message 30
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
OK that will work but a single valve at the discharge from the gascolator
would have done the same job.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
They sit between the two outermost ribs of the center wing section. I made
mounting brackets that are riveted to the ribs. The outboard fitting on the
pump is just outboard of the rib. Then there's 3/8" aluminum tubing between
the pump and the cockpit, where the shutoff valves and check valves are
located. I plan to just leave the valves both open all the time. That's
why the redundant check valves were installed.
Bill
>
> Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
auto
> fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
>
> If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> trip
into
> the trees in the making.
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 31
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ha ha....:)...Well I can tell you I tested this too....I came back from a
long trip battling headwinds and my fuel computer showed me with about 20
minutes total fuel remaining...Having said that I conservatively assume 1
gallon unusable in each tank.
I got to the field and it was blowing 25kts gusting to 31 at 90 degrees to
the runway....Yes it was scary and you can bet your life I did not do the
crossed up approach until I knew the threashold was made.
I had both pumps running and they did not quit for the 20 seconds I went
thrashing over the runway trying to get it down.
Now if you think about it...If you hae one wing low uncoordintaed you will
unport that tank. But, the other tank will not unport. The low wing pump
will airlock and simply not pump fuel...the other pump will continue to pump
fuel.
If by chance the low wing pump manages to pump air it will simply come out
in the float bowls of the carbs.
Either way the engine will not starve unless you empty the high wing
tank....But as you should always have a reserve then no problem!...;)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
--> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Thanks Frank. Now, for an interesting question to you. What happens when you
do a crosswind approach with one wing low and opposite rudder........won't
that unport the fuel line if the tank is low? :{)
I like your idea of no fuel selector and gascolator ahead of the center
spar. Seems like simplicity is the way to be.
Dave
> Ahh...my favourite subject.
>
> If you search the archives you will see I dislike sucking on fuel AT
> ALL...but I won't dig all that up again....Remember that "proper"
airplanes
> run Avgas which will not vapour lock as easily as autofuel...so they
> can
get
> away with sucking on it more.
>
> I do not use a selector valve. I buried a fuel pump in the inboard
> wing (last bay next to the tank) and a 3/8" flex to connect to the
> tank to minimise pressure drop. Then 1/4" from the pump to the
> gascolator just
ahead
> of the spar in the middle of the cabin. I used a check valve in each
> line
to
> prevent the fuel backflowing through a switched off pump.
>
> I wired each pump from each battery therby not relying on a single
> electrical feed.
>
> I balance out my fuel burn by switching each pump...I.e each pump
> supplies from one tank, and I run both pumps for TO and landing. In
> real life it works great.
>
> I can tell you you will NOT unport a nearly empty tank in a
> coordintaed turn...I tried it!
>
> Frank
> 601 Stratus, Ram heads 317 hours
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron Trim, pro or con |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" <ferret@wmtel.net>
I built my 601 without airleron trim. I thought I could use the fuel in the
wings (LE tanks) to balance. However, this didn't work out and I installed
a electric trim tab after less than 3 hours. The difference between flying
solo or with someone else makes the trim tab necessary to me.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Vetterli" <richvetterli@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Aileron Trim, pro or con
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Richard Vetterli
<richvetterli@yahoo.com>
>
> Any arguments, pro or con, about the electric aileron
> trim option for the 601XL? All of my flying time has
> been in Skyhawks with no aileron trim, but does the
> 601 need it? Is it only for autopilot? Any
> suggestions before I place my wing order.
> Sorry if this has been covered recently, but I'm new
> to the list and did't find much about this in the
> archives.
> Rich Vetterli
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: the contactor |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com
If I understood your post, you are concerned with the current drawn by a
relay coil when said relay is used as the "battery master". Not to worry....don't
use a relay, or solenoid, or contactor, as the master. As someone else
pointed out, the only real heavy user of 12 volts is the starter and it does use
a
solenoid. Otherwise, a healthy switch will do the rest.
There is a switch available which will handle 200 amps. Those on the list
familiar with Caterpillar equipment will know it as the "battery switch". Don't
recall the actual manufacturer, but these are used in many types of off-road
equipments and they only weigh about 10 ounces. One type has a handle,
another version uses a "Cat" key. This thing will disconnect/connect anything
you
can put on a ZAC machine. Has two threaded studs approx the size of the
battery bolt on an automobile starter.
Zed Smith/701/R912/92.125% do not archive
Message 34
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
straight
Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying to
treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the tanks.
Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not liquid.
As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour lock.
The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
sucking...guess when?...On take off!
Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble to
escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
first place.
You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through any
kind of restriction.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
--> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a return
line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or soldered
closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel to
return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine compartment?
(probably a stupid question).
I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to which
all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I could
obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
Thanks.....Dave
> Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
auto
> fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
>
> If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> trip
into
> the trees in the making.
>
> Frank
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 35
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
This is another good reason not to install a fuel selector without a BOTH
position, or no selector at all. If the low wing unports, you're heading
for the trees unless you can select the high wing tank and turn on the high
wing pump real fast.
Sounds like "always open" shutoff valves on each tank are the way to go.
Dave
> Ha ha....:)...Well I can tell you I tested this too....I came back from a
> long trip battling headwinds and my fuel computer showed me with about 20
> minutes total fuel remaining...Having said that I conservatively assume 1
> gallon unusable in each tank.
>
> I got to the field and it was blowing 25kts gusting to 31 at 90 degrees to
> the runway....Yes it was scary and you can bet your life I did not do the
> crossed up approach until I knew the threashold was made.
>
> I had both pumps running and they did not quit for the 20 seconds I went
> thrashing over the runway trying to get it down.
>
> Now if you think about it...If you hae one wing low uncoordintaed you will
> unport that tank. But, the other tank will not unport. The low wing pump
> will airlock and simply not pump fuel...the other pump will continue to
pump
> fuel.
>
> If by chance the low wing pump manages to pump air it will simply come out
> in the float bowls of the carbs.
>
> Either way the engine will not starve unless you empty the high wing
> tank....But as you should always have a reserve then no problem!...;)
>
> Frank
>
>
Message 36
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
I plan to install a pump in each wing locker, so that there is no sucking
of fuel at all....only pushing to the gascolator. I didn't intend to
install a third pump on the firewall as a backup to the engine pump. I
figured that pumps pushing fuel from the wings would be sufficient to feed
the engine should the engine pump fail. I only mention the fuel return line
because Rotax has that system on their FAA certified 912, and they said it
was to reduce vapor lock. I think they figured that if the engine pump
vapor locked, the vapor could purged through the return line back to the
tank. I know heat protection of all fuel lines, engine pump is the most
important thing to consider. Maybe installing an air scoop in the top of
the cowling that directs cool air over the engine pump is a good idea?
Thanks...Dave
> Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> straight
>
> Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying to
> treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
>
> Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
tanks.
>
> Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
liquid.
> As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
lock.
>
> The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> sucking...guess when?...On take off!
>
> Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble to
> escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> first place.
>
> You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
any
> kind of restriction.
>
> Frank
>
>
Message 37
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Or no shutoff valves at all...>I just have one
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
--> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
This is another good reason not to install a fuel selector without a BOTH
position, or no selector at all. If the low wing unports, you're heading for
the trees unless you can select the high wing tank and turn on the high wing
pump real fast.
Sounds like "always open" shutoff valves on each tank are the way to go.
Dave
> Ha ha....:)...Well I can tell you I tested this too....I came back
> from a long trip battling headwinds and my fuel computer showed me
> with about 20 minutes total fuel remaining...Having said that I
> conservatively assume 1 gallon unusable in each tank.
>
> I got to the field and it was blowing 25kts gusting to 31 at 90
> degrees to the runway....Yes it was scary and you can bet your life I
> did not do the crossed up approach until I knew the threashold was
> made.
>
> I had both pumps running and they did not quit for the 20 seconds I
> went thrashing over the runway trying to get it down.
>
> Now if you think about it...If you hae one wing low uncoordintaed you
> will unport that tank. But, the other tank will not unport. The low
> wing pump will airlock and simply not pump fuel...the other pump will
> continue to
pump
> fuel.
>
> If by chance the low wing pump manages to pump air it will simply come
> out in the float bowls of the carbs.
>
> Either way the engine will not starve unless you empty the high wing
> tank....But as you should always have a reserve then no problem!...;)
>
> Frank
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:59:57 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Gee, I guess my good old eight gallon header and LE tanks take all the fun out
of being scared to DEATH!!!! while flying.
K.I.S. gents, find a system that works for someone you trust and who is flying
and copy it. I copied Brent Battles'. Save bandwidth.
tailwinds jeff HDS/3300
>This is another good reason not to install a fuel selector without a BOTH
>position, or no selector at all. If the low wing unports, you're heading
>for the trees unless you can select the high wing tank and turn on the high
>wing pump real fast.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
A low wing plane with a fuel selector that has a BOTH selection will not
pass it's final inspection in Canada. Thus no flight authority. U.S.
citizens may wish to check with your local inspectors but if it is such a
big no no in Canada you may wish to re-think it.
Mark Townsend
601XL EJ 2.2
Alma, Ontario
------ Original Message -----
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Thanks Bill. Your setup seems to be popular. And the less fuel connections
> inside the cockpit, the better. I would guess that a selector with a BOTH
> position is the same as separate valves from each tank open
simultaneously.
>
> Dave
>
>
> >
> > I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned installing a fuel
> selector
> > like you describe, but didn't say which one. I decided to go with
> > individual valves, one in each fuel line coming from the tanks. And,
> while
> > the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check valves, I also
> > installed a separate check valve in each line. My lines come together
at
> > the "gascolator" in the center of the plane, just forward of the spar.
> >
> > I'm not flying yet, so can't tell you how it works in flight, but I know
> > some other folks have used this same type of setup.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
What is the logic for eliminating the header tank?
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Dear List,
>
> I decided to eliminate the header tank in my 601. I'll have a tank in each
wing, plumbed through a selector valve. My question is what type of selector
would be optimal........an L BOTH R OFF.......or an L R OFF only. If
the low wing tank in a turn became unported, fuel flow to the engine could
stop without a BOTH position, right? Is it possible to have both fuel pumps
on at the same time supplying the engine from both tanks, or are there
problems there? I know that many low wing aircraft do not have a BOTH
position.
>
> Are there any comments from the experts? Thanks
>
> Dave
> 601/912S
>
>
---
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Mark,
I know that so many low wing aircraft have no BOTH positions on their
selectors. I've just never heard a good reason why.
Dave
> A low wing plane with a fuel selector that has a BOTH selection will not
> pass it's final inspection in Canada. Thus no flight authority. U.S.
> citizens may wish to check with your local inspectors but if it is such a
> big no no in Canada you may wish to re-think it.
>
> Mark Townsend
> 601XL EJ 2.2
> Alma, Ontario
>
> ------ Original Message -----
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" <jeffrey.davidson@earthlink.net>
> A low wing plane with a fuel selector that has a BOTH selection will not
> pass it's final inspection in Canada. Thus no flight authority. U.S.
> citizens may wish to check with your local inspectors but if it is such a
> big no no in Canada you may wish to re-think it.
When I ran my fuel system design by Chris, he indicated a similar
concern. He said that some inspectors may require a interconnection
between the overflow tubes if the selector had a BOTH position.
The concern had to do with one of the tank's vent lines being blocked
while the BOTH position was being used. If the vent tubes are
interconnected
and either one is open, fuel flow should not be interrupted.
My suggestion for anyone who is not positive about their fuel system is
to draw it up with a description of how it will operate, then send it to
Chris
for his comments. It's free expert advice!
Jeff Davidson
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
A crash landing if you flip over, and you can't exit the plane with 16
gallons of gas pouring out over your legs......explosions, fire, fuel leak
dripping on electrical system, etc. It's just not worth the risk of being
burned alive. I know that header tanks have been used for years, but that
doesn't mean it's a safe idea. Just my opinion. I wrestled with this for a
long time.
Dave
>
> What is the logic for eliminating the header tank?
>
> Do not archive.
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time. You WILL
draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very quiet even
though you still have gas in the other tank.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Thanks Bill. Your setup seems to be popular. And the less fuel connections
> inside the cockpit, the better. I would guess that a selector with a BOTH
> position is the same as separate valves from each tank open
simultaneously.
>
> Dave
>
>
> >
> > I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned installing a fuel
> selector
> > like you describe, but didn't say which one. I decided to go with
> > individual valves, one in each fuel line coming from the tanks. And,
> while
> > the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check valves, I also
> > installed a separate check valve in each line. My lines come together
at
> > the "gascolator" in the center of the plane, just forward of the spar.
> >
> > I'm not flying yet, so can't tell you how it works in flight, but I know
> > some other folks have used this same type of setup.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Cy,
I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump supply
fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
Dave
> You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time. You WILL
> draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very quiet
even
> though you still have gas in the other tank.
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
My header tank is 2 quarts and located under the hood on the firewall. You
only need a header tank when banking and you are on the low side wing tank.
Just run two low pressure pumps, one from each tank to the header tank.
Your selector will include a fuel shut off. Gasolator can be located below
the header tank. Depending on what engine you have, if fuel injected then
you will have to have one or two(backup) high pressure pumps. Carbed
engine usually has the mechanical pump built in. It's a very simple and
time proven solution.
Your talking about a fuselage tank, that's a whole different ball game and I
agree with you.
You can buy small header tanks at racing supply places, Summit Racing has
them. The use them on drag cars.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> A crash landing if you flip over, and you can't exit the plane with 16
> gallons of gas pouring out over your legs......explosions, fire, fuel leak
> dripping on electrical system, etc. It's just not worth the risk of being
> burned alive. I know that header tanks have been used for years, but that
> doesn't mean it's a safe idea. Just my opinion. I wrestled with this for a
> long time.
>
> Dave
>
>
> >
> > What is the logic for eliminating the header tank?
> >
> > Do not archive.
> >
> >
>
>
---
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Another option.
Thanks...Dave
> My header tank is 2 quarts and located under the hood on the firewall.
You
> only need a header tank when banking and you are on the low side wing
tank.
> Just run two low pressure pumps, one from each tank to the header tank.
> Your selector will include a fuel shut off. Gasolator can be located
below
> the header tank. Depending on what engine you have, if fuel injected then
> you will have to have one or two(backup) high pressure pumps. Carbed
> engine usually has the mechanical pump built in. It's a very simple and
> time proven solution.
>
> Your talking about a fuselage tank, that's a whole different ball game
and I
> agree with you.
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to the
fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of the
pump.
Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure on
the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump vapor.
When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
auto fuel but still it can happen.
A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans publications
and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures rise
quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
the tank.
At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of he
pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
Engine quits in a few seconsds
Tom Marson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> straight
>
> Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying to
> treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
>
> Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
tanks.
>
> Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
liquid.
> As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
lock.
>
> The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> sucking...guess when?...On take off!
>
> Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble to
> escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> first place.
>
> You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
any
> kind of restriction.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
return
> line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
> Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or soldered
> closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel to
> return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine compartment?
> (probably a stupid question).
>
> I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to which
> all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
> line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
could
> obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
>
> Thanks.....Dave
>
>
> > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
> auto
> > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> >
> > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > trip
> into
> > the trees in the making.
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
Message 49
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Where in Canada is the best place to buy rivets and in what quanities for the 601XL.
I live in Alberta
dnimigon@telusplanet.net
Form blocks almost done
Message 50
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
At 07:23 PM 3/29/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>
>Where in Canada is the best place to buy rivets and in what quanities for
>the 601XL. I live in Alberta
>dnimigon@telusplanet.net
>
>Form blocks almost done
This is from the archives from Carlos.
I got mine there also.
The A4 below should have 1/8 after it not 1/4
They know what you want there if you tell them
it is for a Zenair.
Do not archive
(because its already in there)
Jim Pollard
Merlin Ont.
Hello
Today I called Zenair (in Ontario) and obtained the part number for the
rivets:
A4 (1/4") 01604-00412
A5 (5/32") 01604-00514
I ordered from Avdel (Toronto, I think) 800 268 9947
prices for 1000:
A4 CDN$46.32
A5 CDN$56.10
CDN$1.00 =~ US$0.67
They do take plastic.
And they do sell these to Zenair.
Carlos Sa
Montreal
Message 51
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jarek M. Walter" <jarek.walter@sympatico.ca>
Hi Everyone,
Today I picked-up my supply of rivets for CH701 directly from Avdel in
Toronto. They charged me 49.95 CAD per 1000 smaller ones (I bought 5500) and
about 60 CAD per 1000 of bigger ones (I'm too lazy to check the part no) (I
bought 1300). I'm not sure what quantities are required for 601.
Regards, Jarek
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave & Darlene
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivets
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
<dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Where in Canada is the best place to buy rivets and in what quanities for
the 601XL. I live in Alberta
dnimigon@telusplanet.net
Form blocks almost done
Message 52
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
The source for Avdel rivetsper Zenair part numbers is Avdel Inc.
Mississauga, Ontario
1-800-268-9947
At least that is where I got them last time.
Mike
UHS Spinners
CH-601HDS 1000 hrs+
Dave & Darlene wrote:
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>
> Where in Canada is the best place to buy rivets and in what quanities for the
601XL. I live in Alberta
> dnimigon@telusplanet.net
>
> Form blocks almost done
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | HD Wing Tanks F Sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
Got a pair of Zac built HD wing tanks to sell.
They are the 6 or 7 gallon style that go
between the standard spaced nose ribs.
I decided to get some bigger ones made
that would fit better in my hds.
I got some pics if you want to see them.
They have no gas cap bung because they were
originally meant to somehow hook into a wing locker
tank. They have the vent tube sticking out the bottom.
Also I leak tested them with water and they were good.
$300.00 Can. obo
Jim Pollard
Merlin, Ont
Message 54
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Looked at the riveter from Harbour Freight..
Actually I was at Princess Auto today and saw the same one for $99 CDN . If I
order from Harbour Freight I'll be paying that much by the time I get it to me
Dave
Message 55
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| Subject: | HD Wing Tanks F Sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Jim,
I need bigger locker tanks also, at least 12.5 gallons each. Who is
building your custom tanks? Maybe I can call them for an estmate.
Thanks.....Dave
> Got a pair of Zac built HD wing tanks to sell.
> They are the 6 or 7 gallon style that go
> between the standard spaced nose ribs.
> I decided to get some bigger ones made
> that would fit better in my hds.
> I got some pics if you want to see them.
> They have no gas cap bung because they were
> originally meant to somehow hook into a wing locker
> tank. They have the vent tube sticking out the bottom.
> Also I leak tested them with water and they were good.
>
> $300.00 Can. obo
>
> Jim Pollard
> Merlin, Ont
>
>
> _
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: HD Wing Tanks F Sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Hi Jim
Just wondering where Merlin is. I'm originally from Haliburton, just north
of Toronto 2 1/2 hrs.
Dave
601XL
form blocks almost done, bending metal coming soon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim and Lucy" <jpollard@mnsi.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: HD Wing Tanks F Sale
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
>
> Got a pair of Zac built HD wing tanks to sell.
> They are the 6 or 7 gallon style that go
> between the standard spaced nose ribs.
> I decided to get some bigger ones made
> that would fit better in my hds.
> I got some pics if you want to see them.
> They have no gas cap bung because they were
> originally meant to somehow hook into a wing locker
> tank. They have the vent tube sticking out the bottom.
> Also I leak tested them with water and they were good.
>
> $300.00 Can. obo
>
> Jim Pollard
> Merlin, Ont
>
>
Message 57
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Duane Evans" <duanee10@pacn.com>
Hi Jim
Jim there is distributer in calgary My granddaughter goes to college in Red
Deer. Avidel would not sell to me because I live in Wash. state She called
Avidel canada they gave her the name of the company I got 2000 1/8 & 1000
5/32 for 97.00 amer. You might save shipping form Toronto if you buy in
calgary.
duane in Deer Park WA
110 hrs 601HDS TD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim and Lucy" <jpollard@mnsi.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivets
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
>
> At 07:23 PM 3/29/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
<dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
> >
> >Where in Canada is the best place to buy rivets and in what quanities for
> >the 601XL. I live in Alberta
> >dnimigon@telusplanet.net
> >
> >Form blocks almost done
>
> This is from the archives from Carlos.
> I got mine there also.
> The A4 below should have 1/8 after it not 1/4
> They know what you want there if you tell them
> it is for a Zenair.
>
> Do not archive
>
> (because its already in there)
>
>
> Jim Pollard
> Merlin Ont.
>
>
> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:28:13 -0500
> Hello
>
> Today I called Zenair (in Ontario) and obtained the part number for the
> rivets:
> A4 (1/4") 01604-00412
> A5 (5/32") 01604-00514
>
> I ordered from Avdel (Toronto, I think) 800 268 9947
> prices for 1000:
> A4 CDN$46.32
> A5 CDN$56.10
> CDN$1.00 =~ US$0.67
> They do take plastic.
> And they do sell these to Zenair.
>
>
> Carlos Sa
> Montreal
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke" <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
Dave, give this experiment a try
Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or
any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw
into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass
empties.
Cheers,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump supply
> fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
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