Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Fred or Sandy Hulen)
2. 02:37 AM - Paint (Randall Stout)
3. 03:19 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Michel Therrien)
4. 04:05 AM - Re: Savannah vs CH701 (Rick Morawski)
5. 04:49 AM - Re: Riveter (Mark Townsend)
6. 06:01 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Jim and Lucy)
7. 06:25 AM - Re: Savannah vs CH701 (Thomas F Marson)
8. 06:38 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Cy Galley)
9. 07:28 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Thomas F Marson)
10. 07:30 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Thomas F Marson)
11. 07:33 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
12. 07:35 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
13. 07:38 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
14. 07:45 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
15. 07:47 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Jack Russell)
16. 07:57 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
17. 07:57 AM - Nanco Tire Source (Brenton Battles)
18. 07:59 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
19. 08:00 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
20. 08:01 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
21. 08:10 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
22. 08:20 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
23. 08:28 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bill Cardell)
24. 08:58 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
25. 09:02 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Ron DeWees)
26. 09:13 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bill Cardell)
27. 09:42 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
28. 09:59 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Dave Alberti)
29. 12:21 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Thomas F Marson)
30. 12:21 PM - Need a Fuselage Kit (Tony Bonsell)
31. 12:21 PM - HDS "Sport Pilot?" (phillip hartig)
32. 12:26 PM - Who belongs to this plane.... (Bima, Martin)
33. 12:30 PM - Savannah vs. CH701 (Robert Schoenberger)
34. 12:35 PM - Rivet heads (Brandon Tucker)
35. 12:42 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (ALEMBIC7@aol.com)
36. 01:00 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (Roger Roy)
37. 01:05 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bill Cardell)
38. 01:15 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
39. 01:21 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (Ron DeWees)
40. 02:03 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Trampas)
41. 02:14 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Steve Dixon)
42. 02:21 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Gordon Duke)
43. 02:39 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (Rick Morawski)
44. 02:50 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Jim and Lucy)
45. 03:00 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
46. 03:18 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (Roger Roy)
47. 03:43 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bill Cardell)
48. 04:04 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
49. 04:08 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 58 Msgs - 03/29/04 (W.R. \)
50. 04:24 PM - Aux fuel tanks (Kevin W Bonds)
51. 04:31 PM - apology (Bill Cardell)
52. 04:32 PM - Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper)
53. 04:56 PM - Sojourn (The Meiste's)
54. 05:08 PM - Sport Pilot and LSA & Sojourner (RURUNY@aol.com)
55. 05:23 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (Roger Roy)
56. 05:26 PM - How to alter rivet tool heads (Randy L. Thwing)
57. 05:30 PM - Re: apology (Roger Roy)
58. 05:33 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (ronnie wehba)
59. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selectors ()
60. 05:58 PM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (Rick)
61. 06:22 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (Ihab A.B. Awad)
62. 06:25 PM - Re: Who belongs to this plane.... (Gary Gower)
63. 06:26 PM - Savannah Video (Robert Schoenberger)
64. 06:44 PM - Re: Aux fuel tanks (Jim and Lucy)
65. 06:57 PM - Re: Savannah Video (Rick)
66. 07:04 PM - Re: Riveter (Dave & Darlene)
67. 07:26 PM - Re: Rivet heads (Dave & Darlene)
68. 07:32 PM - Re: Rivet heads (Michel Therrien)
69. 08:44 PM - Dave Smith's N701XL (Jon Croke)
70. 08:44 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (Rick Morawski)
71. 08:53 PM - Re: HD Wing Tanks F Sale (Kevin W Bonds)
72. 08:54 PM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (Rick Morawski)
73. 09:13 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (wizard-24@juno.com)
74. 09:21 PM - Re: Aux fuel tanks (wizard-24@juno.com)
75. 09:51 PM - Re: Paint (Tebenkof@aol.com)
76. 10:25 PM - barbed hose fittings (Rick)
77. 10:36 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Mr Barry Mayne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Fred or Sandy Hulen" <hulens61@comcast.net>
> Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or
> any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw
> into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass
> empties.
> Cheers,
> Peter
++ Please remember (check the archives) that a properly designed fuel system
does not suck the fuel, it is pushed by pump(s) from the location of the
fuel tank(s).
Fred
112 hours
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Randall Stout <n282rs@sbcglobal.net>
I've been waiting on an engine mount for my Corvair and decided that I should get
started on painting while I wait. Several people on this list have emailed
me in the past about applying boat paint with a roller. I posted a picture of
the job in progress. At present I have only painted one color. When finished,
it will be similar to the ZAC xl paint scheme only with the colors being blue
and white. The picture on my site only has the blue painted and I should start
on the white this weekend. I'll probably post more pictures as I go.
Randy Stout - San Antonio TX
www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Will the same thing happen if you "blow" instead of
"suck"? ;-)
I mean that if the pump is at the fuel tank, the pump
at empty tank will just pump air at no pressure (I
presume, I did not test this). So, the "wet" pump
should be able to pump fuel overring the non efficient
"dry" pump...?
Michel
--- Peter Franke <adsl4749@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke"
> <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
>
> Dave, give this experiment a try
>
> Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one
> glass up with water (or
> any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the
> other glass. Put a straw
> into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what
> happens when one glass
> empties.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Cy,
> >
> > I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry,
> won't the other pump supply
> > fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
> >
> > Dave
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Hope I can have some meaningful input into this thread.
I built a 701 over three years (1300+ hours) and then pranged it after just
56 hours flying.
I didn't want to go through all that building again so I bought a Savannah
( I call it a Savannoh one)
I have completed all assembly (rivetting etc) after just 132 hours and
should be ready to paint in a few more hours work. How??
All (99%)the parts are made and accurately. You just assemble. Mostly you
dont even have to deburr because the holes are punched not drilled, just
whack em together and rivet. For example, one wing in a weekend, all slats
in a day, all ailerons in a day, horizontal stab in a day, rear fuse in a
day.
The metal is stamped and looks to come from the same mills as the ZAC parts
and most parts are beautifully cut and finished.
There are some small but nice improvements which 701 scratch builders could
use. (Could they sue if you copied?) and I think it is every bit as strong
if not more so. Mine is legal for 520kg MTOW.
I can't say anything about flying qualities yet as I havent flown but will
let you know when it happens
I havn't grappled with the moral/ ethical question - I just want to fly
sooner than later.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs CH701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
<tmarson@pressenter.com>
>
> I agree with what has been said about the unethicality of copying someone
> elses design even though bits of that have been part of most new planes
> since the Wright brothers. It's just that sometimes the amount of copying
in
> a single plane gets to be flagrant.
>
> With that said the email writer who said he bought and completed a
Savannah
> did so in just a couple of months (sorry I dont remember his name). The
> after a period of flying the Savannah he built a 701 from plans and that
> took 24 months. I am wondering if that writer will tell us how similar
the
> the following characteristics are:
>
> 1. Flying qualities
> 2. His estimate of the relative strength of the planes
> 3 How the material compares ie: was the metal the same specs and
> thicknesses
> 4. How did the completed empty wts. compare
> 5. How did the rated of climb and level flight speeds compare
> 6 How did the cockpit visibility compare
> 7 How did ground handling and runway manners compare.
>
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I understand. But there certainly is
a
> lot of difference in eye appeal between the two planes.
>
>
> Tom Marson
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Kepford" <snowy_91@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Savannah vs CH701
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim Kepford <snowy_91@yahoo.com>
> >
> > It took me a while to find it too, but it's accually on the first page
you
> load. It's called:
> >
> > Nuovo sito Avio
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > Johann <johann@gi.is> wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann"
> >
> >
> > Hello Hap.
> >
> > I have been looking all over the web site to find the movie you mention,
> but
> > can not find it. Even though it is a Savannah, I would like to see...
> >
> > Regards,
> > Johann G.
> > Do not archive
> >
> >
> > "The movie on surely gets the juices flowing even if it's not a
> > 701. Hap Schoenberger 701 tail and right wing completed. Do not archive"
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Starting today the Princess Auto Riviter goes on sale for 69cdn I think.
Mark Townsend
601XL EJ 2.2
Alma, Ontario
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Riveter
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
<dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>
> Looked at the riveter from Harbour Freight..
> Actually I was at Princess Auto today and saw the same one for $99 CDN .
If I order from Harbour Freight I'll be paying that much by the time I get
it to me
> Dave
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
At 05:45 PM 3/30/2004 +1000, you wrote:
>Dave, give this experiment a try
>
>Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or
>any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw
>into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass
>empties.
>
>Cheers,
>Peter
This experimint has nothing to do with what is being talked about since the
pump would be at the bottom end of your 2 drinking straws.
A experiment that would be more relevent to the discussion would
be to take 2 drinking straws and put a pump on the bottom and
T them together at the top. Now raise one out of the water. One
pump is still pumping fuel out the T and one is not. You still get
fuel.
Jim Pollard
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Rick, thanks for the good report. Tom M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs CH701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski"
<morawski@highway1.com.au>
>
> Hope I can have some meaningful input into this thread.
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
What happens to the air the other pump is pumping?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump supply
> fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
>
>
> > You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time. You
WILL
> > draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very quiet
> even
> > though you still have gas in the other tank.
> >
> > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> > Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> > cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
> >
> > Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
You have to be correct Cy. If one runs dry and the other still has fuel,
the tank with fuel will still pump if there is a pump installed at the
outlet of each tank.
The dry tank pump will still attempt to pump and may push a small amount of
air into the line. This should not create a problem if that air is entrained
it will mix with the fuel coming from the pumping tank.
This condition will put a mixture of fuel and a small amount of air at the
input of the engine driven pump. At this point the suction side of the
engine driven pump is pressureized at about 4 to 6 psi and will just pass
the fuel and entrained air thru to the carb.
The air will simply perculate upward and out of the carb fuel float bowl.
That is my take. Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump supply
> fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
>
>
> > You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time. You
WILL
> > draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very quiet
> even
> > though you still have gas in the other tank.
> >
> > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> > Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> > cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
> >
> > Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Peter that experiment would only be indicatiative if there were no fuel
pumps sitting at the outlet of each wing tank and pushing fuel into a commom
point at the engine driven pump. tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Franke" <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke" <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
>
> Dave, give this experiment a try
>
> Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or
> any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw
> into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass
> empties.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Cy,
> >
> > I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump
supply
> > fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
> >
> > Dave
>
>
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Personally I would just junk the engine pump as you would certainly not rely
on it in any case. Plus it does remove a point of failure.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
--> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
I plan to install a pump in each wing locker, so that there is no sucking of
fuel at all....only pushing to the gascolator. I didn't intend to install a
third pump on the firewall as a backup to the engine pump. I figured that
pumps pushing fuel from the wings would be sufficient to feed the engine
should the engine pump fail. I only mention the fuel return line because
Rotax has that system on their FAA certified 912, and they said it was to
reduce vapor lock. I think they figured that if the engine pump vapor
locked, the vapor could purged through the return line back to the tank. I
know heat protection of all fuel lines, engine pump is the most important
thing to consider. Maybe installing an air scoop in the top of the cowling
that directs cool air over the engine pump is a good idea?
Thanks...Dave
> Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the
> record straight
>
> Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
> to treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
>
> Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
tanks.
>
> Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a
> high vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure
> of the liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter
> pump...not
liquid.
> As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
lock.
>
> The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> sucking...guess when?...On take off!
>
> Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd
> bubble to escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from
> happening in the first place.
>
> You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck
> through
any
> kind of restriction.
>
> Frank
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
True....but crashing and hoping said 8 gallons does not end up in your lap
is another matter entirely....:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Gee, I guess my good old eight gallon header and LE tanks take all the fun
out of being scared to DEATH!!!! while flying.
K.I.S. gents, find a system that works for someone you trust and who is
flying and copy it. I copied Brent Battles'. Save bandwidth.
tailwinds jeff HDS/3300
>This is another good reason not to install a fuel selector without a
>BOTH position, or no selector at all. If the low wing unports, you're
>heading for the trees unless you can select the high wing tank and turn
>on the high wing pump real fast.
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Really just personal preference.
In my case I could bear the thought of all that fuel above my knees in a
forced landing situation.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
What is the logic for eliminating the header tank?
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Dear List,
>
> I decided to eliminate the header tank in my 601. I'll have a tank in
> each
wing, plumbed through a selector valve. My question is what type of selector
would be optimal........an L BOTH R OFF.......or an L R OFF only. If
the low wing tank in a turn became unported, fuel flow to the engine could
stop without a BOTH position, right? Is it possible to have both fuel pumps
on at the same time supplying the engine from both tanks, or are there
problems there? I know that many low wing aircraft do not have a BOTH
position.
>
> Are there any comments from the experts? Thanks
>
> Dave
> 601/912S
>
>
---
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Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Not true if the other tank has fuel in it (and assuming you have the pump at
the outlet of the tank in each wing) for two reasons..
1) The 'empty' won't pump air very well if at all, the other wet pump will
be far more effective at pumping gas. So the worse you will get is a mixture
of gas and air.
2) On a carbureted engine the float bowls are (or should be) vented, thus
the air will simply pass thru the needle valve and out the vent.
Having said that....I have never emptied a tank....:)..On my plane I don't
have a selector of any sort
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cy Galley
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time. You WILL
draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very quiet even
though you still have gas in the other tank.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety
Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Thanks Bill. Your setup seems to be popular. And the less fuel
> connections inside the cockpit, the better. I would guess that a
> selector with a BOTH position is the same as separate valves from each
> tank open
simultaneously.
>
> Dave
>
>
> >
> > I have the same setup in my 601. Nick mentioned installing a fuel
> selector
> > like you describe, but didn't say which one. I decided to go with
> > individual valves, one in each fuel line coming from the tanks.
> > And,
> while
> > the Facet fuel pumps offer a bit in the way of check valves, I also
> > installed a separate check valve in each line. My lines come
> > together
at
> > the "gascolator" in the center of the plane, just forward of the
> > spar.
> >
> > I'm not flying yet, so can't tell you how it works in flight, but I
> > know some other folks have used this same type of setup.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
>
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Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
After a lot of consideration on the fuel system and some discussion with the eaa
adviser I went for the left both right valve. Sucking air is not an issue because
you can simply switch to left or right if this happens. If you use a left/right
valve you would still suck air when one tank emptied and would have to
switch anyway. If you use ZAC's design with the shut off valve at each tank you
will still be having to shut off one of the valves on a dry tank. Besides that,
I have never ran a tank dry in any plane I have flown. Most of the time I
get fuel at 1/2 tanks.
Jack Russell -Clovis CA
601 XL Jabiru 3300
Progress update at:
http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
My assumption was that the engine pump was the only pump...I.e sucking it
from the wing tanks...Sure it will help in this situation but why rely on
sucking all that way up hill...simply do the right thing and put the pumps
down low where they should be in the cooler wings and do all the lifting on
the pressure side of the pump.
Then you don't need the engine pump at all and the need for the bleeder
return evapourates (pun intended..:))
If you get vapour in the pressure side due to a hot engine then the thing
will be so hot it won't run anyway.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F Marson
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
--> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to the
fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of the
pump.
Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure on
the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump vapor.
When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
auto fuel but still it can happen.
A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans publications
and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures rise
quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
the tank.
At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of he
pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
Engine quits in a few seconsds
Tom Marson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the
> record straight
>
> Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
> to treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
>
> Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
tanks.
>
> Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a
> high vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure
> of the liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter
> pump...not
liquid.
> As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
lock.
>
> The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> sucking...guess when?...On take off!
>
> Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd
> bubble to escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from
> happening in the first place.
>
> You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck
> through
any
> kind of restriction.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
> Pepper
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
return
> line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would
> a Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
> soldered closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule
> amount of fuel to return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in
> the engine compartment? (probably a stupid question).
>
> I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
> which all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and
> return line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows
> where I
could
> obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
>
> Thanks.....Dave
>
>
> > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the
> > valves represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy
> > sucking on
> auto
> > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> >
> > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now
> > have to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds
> > like a trip
> into
> > the trees in the making.
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Nanco Tire Source |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brenton Battles <brentbattles@charter.net>
I have purchased replacement Nanco tires for my 601HD from Matco in the
past but found them and their supplier in California out of stock for
at least 2 weeks this time around. I found another source which is
closer to me on the east coast and is also a bit less expensive at
$15.95 for the Load Range C 6 ply rating 4.80 x 8 tire. Be sure to
specify the 6 ply tire as they also carry a Load Range B 4 ply version.
The supplier is Tire Science, Inc. and the tire can be ordered from
their web page:
http://tire-science.com/trailer_tires.htm
The company is located in New York, however they ship at least this
tire from Florida.
Only reason I have had to replace tires is due to wearing a flat spot
due to wheels not being in balance and the wheels winding up in the
same position for every landing. I am having a motorcycle shop balance
the wheels this time.
Regards,
Brent Battles N16BZ 601HD 465 hrs 825 landings
Looking forward to Sun 'n Fun !
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Exactly the reasone for putting a pump at each tank...Now you have two guys
sucking (minimally) out of two straws...Not a problem is it?....:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Franke
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke" <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
Dave, give this experiment a try
Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or
any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw
into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass
empties.
Cheers,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump
> supply fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
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Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Bingo!
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Therrien
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Will the same thing happen if you "blow" instead of
"suck"? ;-)
I mean that if the pump is at the fuel tank, the pump
at empty tank will just pump air at no pressure (I
presume, I did not test this). So, the "wet" pump
should be able to pump fuel overring the non efficient
"dry" pump...?
Michel
--- Peter Franke <adsl4749@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke"
> <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
>
> Dave, give this experiment a try
>
> Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one
> glass up with water (or
> any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the
> other glass. Put a straw
> into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what
> happens when one glass
> empties.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > Cy,
> >
> > I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry,
> won't the other pump supply
> > fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
> >
> > Dave
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
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Message 20
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
IF indeed it is pumping at all....It will simply vent thru the carb bowls
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cy Galley
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
What happens to the air the other pump is pumping?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump
> supply fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
>
>
> > You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time.
> > You
WILL
> > draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very
> > quiet
> even
> > though you still have gas in the other tank.
> >
> > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor,
> > EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
> >
> > Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
> >
> >
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 21
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
And the same will happen if the engine driven pump is not there as well.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F Marson
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
--> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
You have to be correct Cy. If one runs dry and the other still has fuel,
the tank with fuel will still pump if there is a pump installed at the
outlet of each tank.
The dry tank pump will still attempt to pump and may push a small amount of
air into the line. This should not create a problem if that air is entrained
it will mix with the fuel coming from the pumping tank.
This condition will put a mixture of fuel and a small amount of air at the
input of the engine driven pump. At this point the suction side of the
engine driven pump is pressureized at about 4 to 6 psi and will just pass
the fuel and entrained air thru to the carb.
The air will simply perculate upward and out of the carb fuel float bowl.
That is my take. Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump
> supply fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
>
>
> > You don't want to be able to turn on both tanks at the same time.
> > You
WILL
> > draw air when one empties before the other. Engine then gets very
> > quiet
> even
> > though you still have gas in the other tank.
> >
> > Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor,
> > EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
> >
> > Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
> >
> >
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes but presumably you are still sucking on fuel?....This is a marginal
solution.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Russell
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell <clojan@sbcglobal.net>
After a lot of consideration on the fuel system and some discussion with the
eaa adviser I went for the left both right valve. Sucking air is not an
issue because you can simply switch to left or right if this happens. If you
use a left/right valve you would still suck air when one tank emptied and
would have to switch anyway. If you use ZAC's design with the shut off valve
at each tank you will still be having to shut off one of the valves on a dry
tank. Besides that, I have never ran a tank dry in any plane I have flown.
Most of the time I get fuel at 1/2 tanks.
Jack Russell -Clovis CA
601 XL Jabiru 3300
Progress update at:
http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 23
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold pressure
signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine compartment
further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW.
I *think* the guys mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are probably
solving in the simplest fashion.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
<tmarson@pressenter.com>
Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to the
fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of the
pump.
Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure on
the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump vapor.
When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
auto fuel but still it can happen.
A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans publications
and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures rise
quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
the tank.
At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of he
pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
Engine quits in a few seconsds
Tom Marson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> straight
>
> Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying to
> treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
>
> Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
tanks.
>
> Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
liquid.
> As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
lock.
>
> The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> sucking...guess when?...On take off!
>
> Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble to
> escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> first place.
>
> You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
any
> kind of restriction.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
return
> line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
> Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or soldered
> closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel to
> return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine compartment?
> (probably a stupid question).
>
> I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to which
> all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
> line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
could
> obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
>
> Thanks.....Dave
>
>
> > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
> auto
> > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> >
> > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > trip
> into
> > the trees in the making.
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
Message 24
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hey I'm blushing...:)
But yes it definatly works, solves all off the vapour lock issues and is
brain dead simple to operate.
The only drawback is you need to know where your fuel is...In 320 hours of
flying this has been a non issue however and I KNOW the risk of vapour lock
is almost zero.
Now my next project (RV-7) has a fuel injected engine with large fuel flow
return to the low wing tanks...So far I have not come up with a foolproof
method that's as elegant as this one.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cardell
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold pressure
signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine compartment
further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW. I *think* the guys
mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are probably solving in the
simplest fashion.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
<tmarson@pressenter.com>
Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to the
fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of the
pump.
Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure on
the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump vapor.
When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
auto fuel but still it can happen.
A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans publications
and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures rise
quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
the tank.
At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of he
pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
Engine quits in a few seconsds
Tom Marson.
----- Original Message -----
From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the
> record straight
>
> Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
> to treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
>
> Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
tanks.
>
> Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a
> high vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure
> of the liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter
> pump...not
liquid.
> As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
lock.
>
> The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> sucking...guess when?...On take off!
>
> Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd
> bubble to escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from
> happening in the first place.
>
> You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck
> through
any
> kind of restriction.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
> Pepper
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
return
> line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would
> a Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
> soldered closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule
> amount of fuel to return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in
> the engine compartment? (probably a stupid question).
>
> I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
> which all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and
> return line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows
> where I
could
> obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
>
> Thanks.....Dave
>
>
> > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the
> > valves represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy
> > sucking on
> auto
> > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> >
> > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now
> > have to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds
> > like a trip
> into
> > the trees in the making.
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
I really don't want to throw fuel on this thread , but went a different
direction with my fuel system on my 601 HDS. I have heard of a whole lot
more fuel management engine outs and crashes than cremated pilots in
inverted crashes using header tanks.
I installed an 8 gallon header tank for my primary fuel source, thus using
gravity as the primary supply source and a mechanical and electric pump for
backup. I use the wing tanks to supply fuel to the TOP of the header tank.
I have a gas collator at the lowest part of each wing tank and feed their
outputs into a selector switch in the center console . The selector has
Left, Right, and OFF position. The output of this selector goes to a Facet
pump whose output goes to the top of the header tank. If either wing tank
goes to empty, the pump can push air or whatever into the top of the header
tank and cause no problem. Other than being inverted, the attitude of the
wing tank will be irrelevant unless I run the header tank dry, which I don't
plan on doing. I have a capacitive fuel gauge on the header tank and can
see when the tank is full. Seems like a good tradeoff rather than even
speculating on which wing tank is empty or low or pumping air or gas.
Worst case is over an hour of flight with header tank alone and a lot of
time to find a landing spot.
Ron D
Message 26
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
But if there is a pump at each tank, this doesn't happen. Only if you're
trying to suck two tanks with one pump.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Franke [mailto:adsl4749@tpg.com.au]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke" <adsl4749@tpg.com.au>
Dave, give this experiment a try
Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or
any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw
into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass
empties.
Cheers,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
<rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
>
> Cy,
>
> I don't understand this. If one tank runs dry, won't the other pump supply
> fuel to the gascolator uninterrupted?
>
> Dave
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Actually Ron in a round about way I agree with you.
If you don't understand how serious an issue vapour lock is, or you think
its not an issue, or you think I'm full of it when I bang on about not
sucking on fuel, then you would be at far less risk going with the header
tank.
When you simply decide you don't want the header tank you really must
understand the issue and the remedy otherwise sooner or later (hot day on
take off) your engine will quit.
I have so many folks off list who tell me they put their fuel pumps on the
firewall and have never had a problem sucking up from the fuel tanks
etc,etc.
I have one response....NOT YET!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron DeWees
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
I really don't want to throw fuel on this thread , but went a different
direction with my fuel system on my 601 HDS. I have heard of a whole lot
more fuel management engine outs and crashes than cremated pilots in
inverted crashes using header tanks.
I installed an 8 gallon header tank for my primary fuel source, thus using
gravity as the primary supply source and a mechanical and electric pump for
backup. I use the wing tanks to supply fuel to the TOP of the header tank.
I have a gas collator at the lowest part of each wing tank and feed their
outputs into a selector switch in the center console . The selector has
Left, Right, and OFF position. The output of this selector goes to a Facet
pump whose output goes to the top of the header tank. If either wing tank
goes to empty, the pump can push air or whatever into the top of the header
tank and cause no problem. Other than being inverted, the attitude of the
wing tank will be irrelevant unless I run the header tank dry, which I don't
plan on doing. I have a capacitive fuel gauge on the header tank and can
see when the tank is full. Seems like a good tradeoff rather than even
speculating on which wing tank is empty or low or pumping air or gas. Worst
case is over an hour of flight with header tank alone and a lot of time to
find a landing spot.
Ron D
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 28
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Alberti" <daberti@execpc.com>
No! it's far better to be deposited (fuel) all around you...or if it's in a
compromised wing tank with a collapsed gear running into the cockpit through
the lightening holes. Face it, if you crash your going to die because the G
loads are going to get you. If you land, you may bend your plane but
survive.
And no thanks on dumping the fuel pump, I'll keep my engine driven fuel pump
attached right where rotax designed it to be.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of HINDE,FRANK
(HP-Corvallis,ex1)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
True....but crashing and hoping said 8 gallons does not end up in your lap
is another matter entirely....:)
Frank
Gee, I guess my good old eight gallon header and LE tanks take all the fun
out of being scared to DEATH!!!! while flying. Do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Bill, all this discussion up until now has been on a relief line back to the
tank on a carburetor fed engine. None of the planes we are talking about is
fuel injected. Not necessary to throw a monkey wrench intothe discussion.
Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cardell" <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
>
> I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
> injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
> regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold pressure
> signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
> pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
> systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine compartment
> further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW.
> I *think* the guys mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are probably
> solving in the simplest fashion.
>
> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> bill@flyinmiata.com
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
> 970-242-3800 (tech support)
> http://flyinmiata.com
> http://flyinprotege.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
>
> Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
> reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to
the
> fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
>
> What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
> insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
> suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of
the
> pump.
>
> Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure
on
> the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump
vapor.
> When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
> auto fuel but still it can happen.
>
> A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
> problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
> bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans
publications
> and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
>
> In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures
rise
> quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
> the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
> Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
> flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
> hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
> the tank.
>
> At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
> maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of
he
> pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
> heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
> the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
>
> Engine quits in a few seconsds
>
> Tom Marson.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> >
> > Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> > straight
> >
> > Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
to
> > treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
> >
> > Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> > engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
> tanks.
> >
> > Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> > vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> > liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
> liquid.
> > As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
> lock.
> >
> > The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> > heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> > sucking...guess when?...On take off!
> >
> > Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble
to
> > escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> > first place.
> >
> > You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
> any
> > kind of restriction.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> > --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
> return
> > line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
> > Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
soldered
> > closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel
to
> > return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine
compartment?
> > (probably a stupid question).
> >
> > I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
which
> > all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
> > line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
> could
> > obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
> >
> > Thanks.....Dave
> >
> >
> > > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> > > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
> > auto
> > > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> > >
> > > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> > > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > > trip
> > into
> > > the trees in the making.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> >
> >
> > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Need a Fuselage Kit |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tony Bonsell <tbonsell@luxuria.com>
Hi Guys
Got my second 701 wing done. Tail getting done pretty fast.
Looks like I need the fuse, gear and control kits now. Thought I'd check and
see if anyone had a fuse kit for sale before I pay the big bucks to get one
from Missouri to Ontario. Anybody?
Or is anyone from Ontario planning on making a run down there in the near
future for a factory pickup?
Feel free to contact me off list if you want!
******************************************************
Tony Bonsell (tbonsell@luxuria.com) CI-FKF
Luxuria + Apparatus Design Communications
535 Cragg Road, RR #3
Uxbridge, Ontario L9P 1R3
Voice: 905.852.3848
http://www.luxuria.com
******************************************************
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over an HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are STCs for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a design mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What is the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible or just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
---------------------------------
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Who belongs to this plane.... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca>
I would like to contact the owner/builder of this aircraft. I have a
question about the panel.
<<beuffe-mex3.jpeg>>
If anyone can help GREAT!!!
In case the picture does not come out, it is a white 701 with red and
blue stripes. Red seats and a center console control panel are in the
cabin. It appears in the cabin details album on the website photos. On
the side is the word "ALLOUETTE" and the JPEG is called
"beuff-mex3.jpg".
The point of interest is what looks like a "Stratomaster" Ultra digital
panel.
Thanks for you help.
Martin Bima
Winnipeg, Canada
STOL-Vair
25% complete
Do not archive
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Savannah vs. CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
Rick . . . When all was said and done, how much did each plane cost? Did you use
the same engine and instrumentation? I surely was impressed with the build
times you quoted for the Savannah. And that movie is pretty sensational. I'm
not sure how safe those climbing turns are that close to the ground, but they
are fun to view. Hap Schoenberger 701
Message 34
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Dave,
When you get your rivet gun, you can easily
modify the heads yourself. The heads come hardened,
but you can heat them up with a propane torch and
leave to cool down at atmospheric temp. This will
allow you to dimple the head with an appropriate sized
drill bit and smooth out with a dremel tool. You can
reheat and quench with water if you really want them
tempered again, but it is not necessary. Mine took
about 10 minutes each, and have worked well for
skinning the wings. I think the builder's manual has
a brief discussion on a procedure similar to this.
Respectfully,
Brandon Tucker
601 HDS Corvair
Working on honey doo list so she
will let me work on the LE Tanks!
__________________________________
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com
Just a thought re ethics...how about if you build a Savannah you buy a set of
701 plans from ZAC...that gives you the right to build one to Chris's
design...seems only fair...
AZLurker
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:59:42 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
You're to late with that suggestion because I've already done that. I now have
one of each
RJ
Savannah N7802W
CH-701 N9869L
----- Original Message -----
From: ALEMBIC7@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701
--> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com
Just a thought re ethics...how about if you build a Savannah you buy a set of
701 plans from ZAC...that gives you the right to build one to Chris's
design...seems only fair...
AZLurker
Message 37
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Well, if we're talking about recent automotive history, it's been roughly
twenty years since cars had carbs, and I don't remember return lines on
carbureted cars. Running a return line *heats* the fuel in the tank.
Sorry for the large wrench.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
<tmarson@pressenter.com>
Bill, all this discussion up until now has been on a relief line back to the
tank on a carburetor fed engine. None of the planes we are talking about is
fuel injected. Not necessary to throw a monkey wrench intothe discussion.
Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cardell" <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
>
> I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
> injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
> regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold pressure
> signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
> pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
> systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine compartment
> further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW.
> I *think* the guys mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are probably
> solving in the simplest fashion.
>
> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> bill@flyinmiata.com
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
> 970-242-3800 (tech support)
> http://flyinmiata.com
> http://flyinprotege.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
>
> Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
> reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to
the
> fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
>
> What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
> insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
> suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of
the
> pump.
>
> Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure
on
> the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump
vapor.
> When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
> auto fuel but still it can happen.
>
> A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
> problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
> bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans
publications
> and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
>
> In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures
rise
> quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
> the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
> Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
> flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
> hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
> the tank.
>
> At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
> maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of
he
> pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
> heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
> the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
>
> Engine quits in a few seconsds
>
> Tom Marson.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> >
> > Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> > straight
> >
> > Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
to
> > treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
> >
> > Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> > engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
> tanks.
> >
> > Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> > vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> > liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
> liquid.
> > As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
> lock.
> >
> > The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> > heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> > sucking...guess when?...On take off!
> >
> > Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble
to
> > escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> > first place.
> >
> > You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
> any
> > kind of restriction.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> > --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
> return
> > line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
> > Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
soldered
> > closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel
to
> > return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine
compartment?
> > (probably a stupid question).
> >
> > I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
which
> > all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
> > line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
> could
> > obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
> >
> > Thanks.....Dave
> >
> >
> > > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> > > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
> > auto
> > > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> > >
> > > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> > > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > > trip
> > into
> > > the trees in the making.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> >
> >
> > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Perfectly feasible, In fact all you need to do is build a set of HD wings.
You might even be able to persuade the local FSDO to give you you repairman
certificate for the finished craft.
As to the high cruise speed...Its bogus! Top speed for an HDS is around
125mph despite what ZAC says.
I will be selling my HDS in about 2 years and certainly one of the options
would be to help a prospective buyer build a set of HD wings and take
advantage of the hopefully bouyant sport pilot market.
Frank
HDS Stratus with Ram heads 320 hours.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of phillip hartig
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over an
HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a
plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get
their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the
cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this
parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of
changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are STCs
for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which
drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a design
mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What is
the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible or
just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
---------------------------------
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Philip,
I may be way off base on this one but I think that it's the manufacturer of
the plane that gets it certified as Sport Pilot qualified. It's not like
experimental where you are the manufacturer. Unless ZAC makes the mod and
submitts it to the FAA to be put on the list of approved planes, it doesn't
matter what you do to make it comply.
If I'm wrong someone will quickly correct us.
Ron DeWees
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "phillip hartig" <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over an
HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a
plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get
their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the
cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this
parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of
changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are STCs
for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which
drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a design
mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What is
the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible or
just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
>
>
Message 40
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Some autos with carburetors did use a return system, for example the Dodge
caravan with 2.6L Mitsishitty engine, this most likely did help with vapor
locking but not sure why they did it.
On the current fuel injected cars, most run multi-port fuel injection where
the fuel pressure is around 30-60PSI depending on car. At these pressures it
does take more heat to vaporize the fuel in the line. Also with most fuel
injected cars the fuel pump is in the tank, where there is always liquid
fuel, thus there is no chance of vapor locking the suction side of pump
unless you run out of gas.
Also with the new emission standards there is required a canister purge
system on the fuel tank. That is all fuel vapor that escapes from fuel tanks
must pass through a canister filter system in order to reduce the Hydro
carbons in the atmosphere. As a direct result most fuel takes will have few
pounds of pressure on them in hot weather which reduces the chance of vapor
as well. That is more pressure on system, more heat it takes to form vapor.
The return fuel lines on most cars were put there for cost, and also to
reduce vapor locks. The fuel pressure regulator is put at the engine as that
it makes it easier to get the manifold pressure as a reference for the
pressure regulation; also it is where the hot fuel is. Therefore by having
fuel flowing there is less likelihood of vapor locking. Yes it does heat
fuel in tank, but not a lot as the fuel is not at the engine for long enough
to pick up large amounts of heat. Think about this why did they not put a
pressure regulator in the pump which is in the tank unless there was
advantage not to, it would have been cheaper. Also with the return system
any water in tank is "mixed" up such that it does not cause a huge problem
in the cars.
Also from my understanding the new non-return fuel system operate at higher
pressures than return systems in order to reduce chances of vapor locking.
Again higher pressures on fuel system requires higher temperatures to vapor
lock. Most carburetors operated on 5PSI fuel pressure, thus required much
lower temperatures before vapor locking.
Regards,
Trampas Stern
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cardell
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Well, if we're talking about recent automotive history, it's been roughly
twenty years since cars had carbs, and I don't remember return lines on
carbureted cars. Running a return line *heats* the fuel in the tank.
Sorry for the large wrench.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
<tmarson@pressenter.com>
Bill, all this discussion up until now has been on a relief line back to the
tank on a carburetor fed engine. None of the planes we are talking about is
fuel injected. Not necessary to throw a monkey wrench intothe discussion.
Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cardell" <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
>
> I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
> injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
> regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold pressure
> signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
> pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
> systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine compartment
> further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW.
> I *think* the guys mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are probably
> solving in the simplest fashion.
>
> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> bill@flyinmiata.com
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
> 970-242-3800 (tech support)
> http://flyinmiata.com
> http://flyinprotege.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
>
> Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
> reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to
the
> fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
>
> What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
> insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
> suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of
the
> pump.
>
> Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure
on
> the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump
vapor.
> When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
> auto fuel but still it can happen.
>
> A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
> problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
> bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans
publications
> and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
>
> In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures
rise
> quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
> the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
> Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
> flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
> hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
> the tank.
>
> At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
> maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of
he
> pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
> heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
> the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
>
> Engine quits in a few seconsds
>
> Tom Marson.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> >
> > Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> > straight
> >
> > Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
to
> > treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
> >
> > Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> > engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
> tanks.
> >
> > Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> > vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> > liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
> liquid.
> > As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
> lock.
> >
> > The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> > heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> > sucking...guess when?...On take off!
> >
> > Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble
to
> > escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> > first place.
> >
> > You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
> any
> > kind of restriction.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> > --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
> return
> > line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
> > Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
soldered
> > closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel
to
> > return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine
compartment?
> > (probably a stupid question).
> >
> > I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
which
> > all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
> > line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
> could
> > obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
> >
> > Thanks.....Dave
> >
> >
> > > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> > > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
> > auto
> > > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> > >
> > > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> > > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > > trip
> > into
> > > the trees in the making.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> >
> >
> > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Dixon" <dix39@charter.net>
FWIW,
Bills response made perfect sense to me, and I thought it was pertinent to
the point that a return line would allow fuel to flow through the pump and
return to the tank, thus providing cooler fuel in the system with a lower
chance of vapor lock. This is exactly the way the fuel injectors on a
diesel engine are cooled. Even though the fuel in the tank would be warmed
a small amount, the fuel in the system would be cooler.
Steve Dixon
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cardell" <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
>
> Well, if we're talking about recent automotive history, it's been roughly
> twenty years since cars had carbs, and I don't remember return lines on
> carbureted cars. Running a return line *heats* the fuel in the tank.
> Sorry for the large wrench.
>
> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> bill@flyinmiata.com
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
> 970-242-3800 (tech support)
> http://flyinmiata.com
> http://flyinprotege.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
>
> Bill, all this discussion up until now has been on a relief line back to
the
> tank on a carburetor fed engine. None of the planes we are talking about
is
> fuel injected. Not necessary to throw a monkey wrench intothe discussion.
>
> Tom Marson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Cardell" <bill@flyinmiata.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
> >
> > I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
> > injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
> > regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold
pressure
> > signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
> > pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
> > systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine
compartment
> > further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW.
> > I *think* the guys mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are
probably
> > solving in the simplest fashion.
> >
> > Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> > bill@flyinmiata.com
> > Flyin' Miata
> > 1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
> > 970-242-3800 (tech support)
> > http://flyinmiata.com
> > http://flyinprotege.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
> > <tmarson@pressenter.com>
> >
> > Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
> > reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to
> the
> > fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
> >
> > What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is
to
> > insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
> > suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of
> the
> > pump.
> >
> > Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced
pressure
> on
> > the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump
> vapor.
> > When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this
than
> > auto fuel but still it can happen.
> >
> > A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES
the
> > problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
> > bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans
> publications
> > and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for
years.
> >
> > In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures
> rise
> > quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line
in
> > the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
> > Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin
level
> > flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines
and
> > hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows
from
> > the tank.
> >
> > At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand
is
> > maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of
> he
> > pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
> > heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel
at
> > the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
> >
> > Engine quits in a few seconsds
> >
> > Tom Marson.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> > To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> >
> >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> > <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> > >
> > > Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the
record
> > > straight
> > >
> > > Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
> to
> > > treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
> > >
> > > Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> > > engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
> > tanks.
> > >
> > > Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a
high
> > > vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of
the
> > > liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
> > liquid.
> > > As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
> > lock.
> > >
> > > The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> > > heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> > > sucking...guess when?...On take off!
> > >
> > > Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd
bubble
> to
> > > escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in
the
> > > first place.
> > >
> > > You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck
through
> > any
> > > kind of restriction.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Pepper
> > > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> > >
> > >
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> > > --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> > >
> > > I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
> > return
> > > line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would
a
> > > Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
> soldered
> > > closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of
fuel
> to
> > > return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine
> compartment?
> > > (probably a stupid question).
> > >
> > > I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
> which
> > > all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and
return
> > > line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
> > could
> > > obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
> > >
> > > Thanks.....Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the
valves
> > > > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking
on
> > > auto
> > > > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> > > >
> > > > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > > > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now
have
> > > > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > > > trip
> > > into
> > > > the trees in the making.
> > > >
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" <gduke@csom.umn.edu>
Hi:
I understand that the venting of raw fuel was also consider
an environmental problem and the return line in automobiles
was required in the eighties or so to help maintain air quality.
Also, do you want to vent raw gas overflows to the inside
of your engine compartment? It is done, but...
== Gordon Duke
St. Paul, MN USA
701 rudder
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Well, if we're talking about recent automotive history, it's been roughly
twenty years since cars had carbs, and I don't remember return lines on
carbureted cars. Running a return line *heats* the fuel in the tank.
Sorry for the large wrench.
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Hap,
The savannah was way cheaper because all you need is paint and a radio, all
else is supplied, mobs of instruments, upholstery, clecoes (not many) air
rivetter.
I dont know any specs regards firewall fwd weights but all the material is
the same size or greater, so I guess you could follow ZAC guidlines there.
I like the idea of buying a set of plans if you build a savann o one, i have
done that and bought the updated set too.
Th flying in the video is scary - I wouldn't do that stuff after pranging my
701 and living.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger"
<hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
> Rick . . . When all was said and done, how much did each plane cost? Did
you use the same engine and instrumentation? I surely was impressed with
the build times you quoted for the Savannah. And that movie is pretty
sensational. I'm not sure how safe those climbing turns are that close to
the ground, but they are fun to view. Hap Schoenberger 701
>
>
Message 44
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
At 02:03 PM 3/30/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>and I don't remember return lines on
>carbureted cars.
1978 454 chev pickup had a return line
On dual tanks the return line was also switched
with the tank selector.
do not archive
Message 45
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| Subject: | HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes so you simply build the HD wings and register it as an HD model.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron DeWees
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Philip,
I may be way off base on this one but I think that it's the manufacturer of
the plane that gets it certified as Sport Pilot qualified. It's not like
experimental where you are the manufacturer. Unless ZAC makes the mod and
submitts it to the FAA to be put on the list of approved planes, it doesn't
matter what you do to make it comply. If I'm wrong someone will quickly
correct us. Ron DeWees
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "phillip hartig" <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig
> --> <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over
> an
HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a
plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get
their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the
cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this
parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of
changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are STCs
for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which
drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a design
mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What is
the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible or
just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:18:42 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Recommend that you go to www.eaa.org and click on sport pilot than click on light homebuilt bottom of page and you will see that the 601 and 701 are on the approval list for the SP certification
RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron DeWees
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Philip,
I may be way off base on this one but I think that it's the manufacturer of
the plane that gets it certified as Sport Pilot qualified. It's not like
experimental where you are the manufacturer. Unless ZAC makes the mod and
submitts it to the FAA to be put on the list of approved planes, it doesn't
matter what you do to make it comply.
If I'm wrong someone will quickly correct us.
Ron DeWees
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "phillip hartig" <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
To: "Zenith list" <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over an
HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a
plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get
their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the
cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this
parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of
changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are STCs
for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which
drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a design
mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What is
the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible or
just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
>
>
Message 47
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
I know we're all going astray here, sorry. Per Mazda's info the year they
went to return-less, with the fuel pressure reg in the tank, one reason was
to avoid heating of the fuel. They did go to much higher line pressure, as
you say, now around 60 psi.
I return you to the tales of woe and imminent disaster with carbureted
zeniths. I'll be dumping the carbs once I've gotten the plane flying, going
to forced induction EFI. There must be some reason a carb float is identical
to a toilet tank float system....
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Trampas [mailto:tstern@nc.rr.com]
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Some autos with carburetors did use a return system, for example the Dodge
caravan with 2.6L Mitsishitty engine, this most likely did help with vapor
locking but not sure why they did it.
On the current fuel injected cars, most run multi-port fuel injection where
the fuel pressure is around 30-60PSI depending on car. At these pressures it
does take more heat to vaporize the fuel in the line. Also with most fuel
injected cars the fuel pump is in the tank, where there is always liquid
fuel, thus there is no chance of vapor locking the suction side of pump
unless you run out of gas.
Also with the new emission standards there is required a canister purge
system on the fuel tank. That is all fuel vapor that escapes from fuel tanks
must pass through a canister filter system in order to reduce the Hydro
carbons in the atmosphere. As a direct result most fuel takes will have few
pounds of pressure on them in hot weather which reduces the chance of vapor
as well. That is more pressure on system, more heat it takes to form vapor.
The return fuel lines on most cars were put there for cost, and also to
reduce vapor locks. The fuel pressure regulator is put at the engine as that
it makes it easier to get the manifold pressure as a reference for the
pressure regulation; also it is where the hot fuel is. Therefore by having
fuel flowing there is less likelihood of vapor locking. Yes it does heat
fuel in tank, but not a lot as the fuel is not at the engine for long enough
to pick up large amounts of heat. Think about this why did they not put a
pressure regulator in the pump which is in the tank unless there was
advantage not to, it would have been cheaper. Also with the return system
any water in tank is "mixed" up such that it does not cause a huge problem
in the cars.
Also from my understanding the new non-return fuel system operate at higher
pressures than return systems in order to reduce chances of vapor locking.
Again higher pressures on fuel system requires higher temperatures to vapor
lock. Most carburetors operated on 5PSI fuel pressure, thus required much
lower temperatures before vapor locking.
Regards,
Trampas Stern
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Cardell
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Well, if we're talking about recent automotive history, it's been roughly
twenty years since cars had carbs, and I don't remember return lines on
carbureted cars. Running a return line *heats* the fuel in the tank.
Sorry for the large wrench.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
<tmarson@pressenter.com>
Bill, all this discussion up until now has been on a relief line back to the
tank on a carburetor fed engine. None of the planes we are talking about is
fuel injected. Not necessary to throw a monkey wrench intothe discussion.
Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Cardell" <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
>
> I'd have to disagree about the auto return line part. The return on fuel
> injected cars is to allow regulation of fuel pressure. The fuel pressure
> regulator is a controlled bleed back to the tank, with a manifold pressure
> signal. The idea is to maintain the same pressure delta between fuel
> pressure and map. Current auto thinking is getting away from return line
> systems to *avoid* vapor lock, as each pass through the engine compartment
> further warms the fuel going back to the tank. FWIW.
> I *think* the guys mounting the pumps right next to the tanks are probably
> solving in the simplest fashion.
>
> Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
> bill@flyinmiata.com
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
> 970-242-3800 (tech support)
> http://flyinmiata.com
> http://flyinprotege.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas F Marson [mailto:tmarson@pressenter.com]
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
>
> Frank I agree with most of what you said but you are not correct on the
> reason for putting a small return line from the fuel pump output back to
the
> fuel tank. That is not to pass vapor or bubbles back to the tank.
>
> What is it for then????? The reason for the small return line tank is to
> insure that there will always be an amount of fresh (cooler fuel) at the
> suction side of the pump. Vapor lock occurs only on the suction side of
the
> pump.
>
> Fuel flashes when its temperature rises enough that the reduced pressure
on
> the fuel causes it to vaporize. As you said a fuel pump can not pump
vapor.
> When that happens the engine starves. 100 LL is less prone to this than
> auto fuel but still it can happen.
>
> A previous writers said he has heard of the solution and it ELIMINATES the
> problem---------- wrong!!!!!! It can still happen but this solution (the
> bleeder line) does help. This solution is recommended in Vans
publications
> and has been used in automotive original equipment installation for years.
>
> In autos during long idling sessions in traffic under hood temperatures
rise
> quite high and this is what they designed to cope to cool the fuel line in
> the engine compartment. Without it one can surely expect vapor lock.
> Seldom does vapor lock occur at highway speeds or for that matterin level
> flight with good flow of fresh fuel. The main problem is hot engines and
> hot engine compartments on the airport ramp and very small fuel flows from
> the tank.
>
> At the time of maximum fuel flow just at takeoff power the fuel demand is
> maximum and the maximum amount of pressure drop is at the suctionside of
he
> pump. That incoming fuel that is inside the engine compartment and
> heating up because of small demand and slow transit may cause the fuel at
> the input side of the pump to flash to vapor.
>
> Engine quits in a few seconsds
>
> Tom Marson.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
> >
> > Dave.. This is such a dangerous serious issue that I must set the record
> > straight
> >
> > Vapour lock certainly CAN NOT be elimintated this way...This is trying
to
> > treat the symptom not eliminate the cause.
> >
> > Let me expalin....Firstly I assume that you are talking about using an
> > engine driven pump or a pump mounted on the firewall sucking from the
> tanks.
> >
> > Vapour lock is caused by a vacuum being applied to the surface of a high
> > vapour pressure liquid..If the vacuum exceeds the vapour pressure of the
> > liquid (namely gasoline) will boil and vapour will enter pump...not
> liquid.
> > As the pump cannot pump vapour the pump will simply not pump...vapour
> lock.
> >
> > The trouble is vapour pressure goes up dramatically when the gas is
> > heated...(on the ground on a hot day) and the pump will do its most
> > sucking...guess when?...On take off!
> >
> > Adding a tee to the discharge side of the pump may allow the odd bubble
to
> > escape but it will do nothing to stop the problem from happening in the
> > first place.
> >
> > You really need to put the pumps as low as possible and not suck through
> any
> > kind of restriction.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper
> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> >
> >
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper"
> > --> <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I heard that vapor lock can be completely eliminated by installing a
> return
> > line between the engine fuel pump and the carbs, to a fuel tank. Would a
> > Delrin or brass "T" work, where the top of the "T" is melted or
soldered
> > closed, then drilled with a pinhole to allow a miniscule amount of fuel
to
> > return to the tank? Are Delrin fittings a no-no in the engine
compartment?
> > (probably a stupid question).
> >
> > I know that Rotax incorporates a fitting on the certified engine to
which
> > all fuel lines are connected, including carbs, fuel pressure and return
> > line. They won't sell this fitting separately. If anyone knows where I
> could
> > obtain one of these fitings, please let me know.
> >
> > Thanks.....Dave
> >
> >
> > > Where are your pumps Bill?...If they are up on the firewall the valves
> > > represent another restriction to suck through....Very dodgy sucking on
> > auto
> > > fuel. I know others do it but its asking for vapour lock!
> > >
> > > If they are at the root of the wings (good hydraulic design) then I
> > > don't see what individual isolation valves do for you as you now have
> > > to coordinate which pump is switched with each valve...sounds like a
> > > trip
> > into
> > > the trees in the making.
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> >
> >
> > advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Not the HDS...Only the HD and the XL
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Roy
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Recommend that you go to www.eaa.org and click on sport pilot than click on
light homebuilt bottom of page and you will see that the 601 and 701 are on
the approval list for the SP certification RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron DeWees
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Philip,
I may be way off base on this one but I think that it's the manufacturer
of
the plane that gets it certified as Sport Pilot qualified. It's not like
experimental where you are the manufacturer. Unless ZAC makes the mod and
submitts it to the FAA to be put on the list of approved planes, it
doesn't
matter what you do to make it comply.
If I'm wrong someone will quickly correct us.
Ron DeWees
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "phillip hartig" <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
To: "Zenith list" <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over
an
HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a
plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get
their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the
cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this
parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of
changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are
STCs
for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which
drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a
design
mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What
is
the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible
or
just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 58 Msgs - 03/29/04 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "W.R. \"Gig\" Giacona" <wr.giacona@cox-internet.com>
You can buy either a manual or pnumatic one from Zenith. They will also mill
the heads for you.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mick Kaye"
<microlightmick@blueyonder.co.uk>
Dave & Darlene,
A std rivet gun is not to be used on the 120 degree rivet heads as it will
try to pull the rivet into the alloy and the strength will not be there, the
head of the rivet gun must be counter bored like one half of a 1/4" ball
bearing, the heads are very hard so I used a shaped masonry bit in the lathe
and works a treat. On such an important tool as this you would think that a
kit would come with special tools ? or at least an option to buy them.
Mick
---
Message 50
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|
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kevin W Bonds" <kbonds@worldshare.net>
How many are putting in auxillary fuel tanks? I plan on using the Corvair. As this
engine will probably weigh a little more and burn a little more fuel than
the rotax or Jab I am trying to decide on 24 or 48 gal system. What do you guys
think are the pros and cons. If I put in the aux tanks will I use/need them?
My wife and I are both under 160lbs but carry a lot of baggage (cameras etc.
. ) what #'s do you think I can expect from the XL Corvair.
Kevin Bonds
Nashville Tn
601XL plansbuilder; rudder complete;97.3% to go!
Message 51
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Folks,
It was just very politely pointed out to me that common practice on this
list is to not repost previous posts in the body of a reply. I apologize for
cluttering up your inboxes.
do not archive
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
www.sterntech.com
Message 52
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" <rockinrimranch@earthlink.net>
Has anyone considered using rubberized fuel bladders in the wing lockers, to fit
the entire area? Or is this a no-no? I'm trying to maximize the fuel in the
lockers without going to LE tanks or having a header tank. Or maybe a custom
aluminium tank in the shape of the locker is best. Any comments are always appreciated.
Thanks.....Dave
Message 53
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
To all the builders on this list please take a short break from this evenings building
and check out this month's issue of "Sport Pilot" magazine. There's a
great article written by this list's own Brent Battles. He tells of his recent
adventure flying his 601 HD from his home in N.C. across the U.S. and back home
again. With his usual flare for writing and his breath taking photo's it's
almost like you're along for the ride. If you're not moved to jump up off the
couch and complete your own plane you probably shouldn't be building one in the
first place.
That's long enough, now get out there and start building!
Kelly Meiste
601 HD
Message 54
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| Subject: | Sport Pilot and LSA & Sojourner |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com
Brent Battles has written a terrific article about his adventures with his
Zenith 601.
It appears in the premiere issue of Sport Pilot and Light Sport Aircraft
Magazine, which
has replaced Experimenter.
I was skeptical about the new magazine because Experimenter was really good.
With articles as good as this, they are on the right track.
Thanks Brent, for helping keep the dream alive and the goal in sight.
Brian U
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:22:59 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
You're right Frank, it had been awhile since I had read that listing and another
member on the list brought it to my attention as well, Cheers
RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)
To: 'zenith-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Not the HDS...Only the HD and the XL
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Roy
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
Recommend that you go to www.eaa.org and click on sport pilot than click on
light homebuilt bottom of page and you will see that the 601 and 701 are on
the approval list for the SP certification RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron DeWees
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Hi Philip,
I may be way off base on this one but I think that it's the manufacturer
of
the plane that gets it certified as Sport Pilot qualified. It's not like
experimental where you are the manufacturer. Unless ZAC makes the mod and
submitts it to the FAA to be put on the list of approved planes, it
doesn't
matter what you do to make it comply.
If I'm wrong someone will quickly correct us.
Ron DeWees
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "phillip hartig" <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
To: "Zenith list" <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: HDS "Sport Pilot?"
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: phillip hartig <ncwingless@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I have a general question for the group. I am thinking of taking over
an
HDS project (the reason is unimportant). However I would like to have a
plane that qualifies as a Sport Plane (assuming the FAA and OMB can get
their act together). The clean stall speed on the HDS is to high, the
cruise is high also but I think I could change prop pitch etc to get this
parameter in compliance. Here is my questions: Has anyone thought of
changing the wingtip to reduce the stall speed a few knots? There are
STCs
for Cessna and Piper products (http://www.metcoaire.com/company.htm) which
drop the stall speed by a few knots. I only need 2 or 3 knots (or a
design
mod that will be a plausible argument for the reduced stall speed). What
is
the collective wisdom of the group on this? Does this seem even feasible
or
just dumb as dirt. Be moderately kind. Thanks phill
>
>
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 56
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| Subject: | How to alter rivet tool heads |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
Try this link to the archives. It worked when I tested it.
Regards,
Randy L. Thwing, 701 plans
http://www.matronics.com/searching/find_msg.cgi?TYPE=nmatch?SERIAL=1719558615?INDEX=17791354?KEYS=gottem?LISTNAME=Zenith?HITNUMBER=1
Message 57
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Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:29:59 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Roger Roy" <Savannah174@msn.com>
I'll have to share the guilt along with Bill on this one I apologies as well
RJ
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
required 5, autolearn=not spam, BAYES_00)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
what video???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski"
<morawski@highway1.com.au>
>
> Hap,
> The savannah was way cheaper because all you need is paint and a radio,
all
> else is supplied, mobs of instruments, upholstery, clecoes (not many) air
> rivetter.
> I dont know any specs regards firewall fwd weights but all the material is
> the same size or greater, so I guess you could follow ZAC guidlines there.
> I like the idea of buying a set of plans if you build a savann o one, i
have
> done that and bought the updated set too.
> Th flying in the video is scary - I wouldn't do that stuff after pranging
my
> 701 and living.
> Rick Morawski
> morawski@highway1.com.au
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
> To: "Zenith List" <Zenith-List@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger"
> <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
> >
> > Rick . . . When all was said and done, how much did each plane cost?
Did
> you use the same engine and instrumentation? I surely was impressed with
> the build times you quoted for the Savannah. And that movie is pretty
> sensational. I'm not sure how safe those climbing turns are that close to
> the ground, but they are fun to view. Hap Schoenberger 701
> >
> >
>
>
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jlatimer1@cox.net>
>> 1978 454 chev pickup had a return line
> On dual tanks the return line was also switched
> with the tank selector.
>
As did 1983 F250 460 with dual tanks. Pump was located in each tank no fuel pump
on engine.
Jerry
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
Ron DeWees wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
>
> Hi Philip,
> I may be way off base on this one but I think that it's the manufacturer of
> the plane that gets it certified as Sport Pilot qualified. It's not like
> experimental where you are the manufacturer. Unless ZAC makes the mod and
> submitts it to the FAA to be put on the list of approved planes, it doesn't
> matter what you do to make it comply.
> If I'm wrong someone will quickly correct us.
> Ron DeWees
Any airplane can be flown as long as it meets the parameters: 2-place,
44 MPH stall, 132 MPH max cruise, 1232 pounds(maybe higher), fixed gear,
fixed pitch prop. The factory doesn't have to do anything to get your
Experimental Zenair approved for Sport Pilot.
Manufacturer's certification comes into play when you start getting into
the CERTIFIED versions. The fully assembled turn-key airplanes (SLSA's)
that can be used for flight training and rental have to be certified by
the factory and approved by the FAA. The 98% complete kits (ELSA's) also
have to be built and maintained according to the factory specs.
Rick Pitcher
601HD - 25 hours and counting.
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ihab A.B. Awad" <ihab@ahc.umn.edu>
On Tuesday 30 March 2004 12:41, ALEMBIC7@aol.com wrote:
> Just a thought re ethics...how about if you build a Savannah you buy a set
> of 701 plans from ZAC...that gives you the right to build one to Chris's
> design...seems only fair...
Sounds like a great idea to me....
Just f-my-i, what *is* the similarity between the CH and Savannah designs? Is
the Savannah design a line-for-line copy of the blueprints? Certainly, they
must have used some CAD software to design the parts. Did they redesign the
whole thing from scratch while "studying" the CH plans, or did they import
CH's CAD files or scan in his drawings?
Peace,
Ihab
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Who belongs to this plane.... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hello Martin,
His name is Michel Bueffe, a good friend of mine, he lives in Puerto
Vallarta, Mexico. His strip is south of Mexico City, about 8- 10 hrs
driving from here! Now I know that is already complete.
I have his office phone number, now is a little late, but I will call
him tomorrow. Have to congratulate him personally, and will ask him
his actual e-mail address. Is a great plane. We were kind of "racing"
:-) to finish our planes, now we know that we are second place... I am
happy, just as it was my own plane finished.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" <mbima@hydro.mb.ca>
>
> I would like to contact the owner/builder of this aircraft. I have a
> question about the panel.
>
> <<beuffe-mex3.jpeg>>
>
> If anyone can help GREAT!!!
>
> In case the picture does not come out, it is a white 701 with red and
> blue stripes. Red seats and a center console control panel are in the
> cabin. It appears in the cabin details album on the website photos.
> On
> the side is the word "ALLOUETTE" and the JPEG is called
> "beuff-mex3.jpg".
>
> The point of interest is what looks like a "Stratomaster" Ultra
> digital
> panel.
>
> Thanks for you help.
>
>
> Martin Bima
> Winnipeg, Canada
> STOL-Vair
> 25% complete
>
> Do not archive
>
__________________________________
Message 63
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
List . . . . several have written me about where to find the Savannah video.
Try this:
Start at: htpp://www.icp.it / Nuovo Avio / English
version / Savanah (found on the left) / download short movie (about 3 min. )
A small TV screen appears. Click the middle button at the bottom. The movie
should start. For a
more impressive display, click the enlarge button in the upper left of the
TV. A big black screen appeared for me, but upon clicking on the black screen,
the movie started. When finished and for reviewing, grab the time indicator
at the bottom and drag it back to the left. Hope this helps. Let me know
what you think Robert Schoenberger 701
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Aux fuel tanks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
I decided to go with only the 10 gallon each leading edge tanks only.
That is lots of time in the air. When the occasion comes up where
I will not be carrying much weight or baggage, I can put some
plastic gerry cans in the wing lockers and refill from those to come
back home or dilute the 100 LL if I need to buy some. I expect
99 % of the fuel that goes through my engine over its life will be
from the farm tanks here or the local gas station up the road.
Jim Pollard
ch601hds
ea81
tanks fitted
waiting for some plumbing
stuff from acs so I can close
up wing
At 06:23 PM 3/30/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kevin W Bonds" <kbonds@worldshare.net>
>
>How many are putting in auxillary fuel tanks?
>Kevin Bonds
>Nashville Tn
>601XL plansbuilder; rudder complete;97.3% to go!
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah Video |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
Robert Schoenberger wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
>
> List . . . . several have written me about where to find the Savannah video.
Try this:
>
> Start at: htpp://www.icp.it / Nuovo Avio / English
> version / Savanah (found on the left) / download short movie (about 3 min. )
Thanks Robert. Cool video.
I gave up before (No comphrende Italian), but now that you've walked us
through the process here's a shorter link:
http://www.icp-avio.com/downloads/Savannah.mpg
It takes a while to download but it's worth the wait.
Rick Pitcher
Message 66
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Right on, I'm heading in tomorrow
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Riveter
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Townsend" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
>
> Starting today the Princess Auto Riviter goes on sale for 69cdn I think.
>
> Mark Townsend
> 601XL EJ 2.2
> Alma, Ontario
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Riveter
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
> <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
> >
> > Looked at the riveter from Harbour Freight..
> > Actually I was at Princess Auto today and saw the same one for $99 CDN
.
> If I order from Harbour Freight I'll be paying that much by the time I get
> it to me
> > Dave
> >
> >
>
>
Message 67
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
Thanks Brandon
I'll give it a try. Hows the Corvair running and what are your thoughts on
it. This is the one i'm leaning towards
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Tucker" <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet heads
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>
> Dave,
>
> When you get your rivet gun, you can easily
> modify the heads yourself. The heads come hardened,
> but you can heat them up with a propane torch and
> leave to cool down at atmospheric temp. This will
> allow you to dimple the head with an appropriate sized
> drill bit and smooth out with a dremel tool. You can
> reheat and quench with water if you really want them
> tempered again, but it is not necessary. Mine took
> about 10 minutes each, and have worked well for
> skinning the wings. I think the builder's manual has
> a brief discussion on a procedure similar to this.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Brandon Tucker
> 601 HDS Corvair
> Working on honey doo list so she
> will let me work on the LE Tanks!
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 68
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Hi Dave,
There are some explanation on how I modified my
riveter heads on my web site:
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chtools.htm
Michel
--- Dave & Darlene <dnimigon@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene"
> <dnimigon@telusplanet.net>
>
> Thanks Brandon
> I'll give it a try. Hows the Corvair running and
> what are your thoughts on
> it. This is the one i'm leaning towards
> Dave
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
Message 69
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| Subject: | Dave Smith's N701XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Everyone:
Dave Smith of Washington state has submitted some Beautiful pics of his new
701 and shots from the cockpit.
Of particular interest: landing on the beach!!! and a heavy duty throttle
setup to stop any type of creep problem.....!
Enjoy at www.CH701.com
Jon
Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Sorry, the "video" I referred to is the ICP company promo CD ROM.
I assumed it was the same flying as Hap referred to from the ICP site.
It shows some guy doing huge wingovers (looks like he gets slightly
inverted) and other stuff really close to the ground. Must be very
experienced.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ronnie wehba" <rwehba@wtxs.net>
>
> what video???
Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: HD Wing Tanks F Sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kevin W Bonds" <kbonds@worldshare.net>
> of Toronto 2 1/2 hrs.
> Dave
> 601XL
> form blocks almost done, bending metal coming soon
Dave sounds like we may be in the same place. Want to race?
Kevin Bonds
Nashville Tn
601XL plansbuilder; rudder complete;working on form blocks 95.3% to go!
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Savannah vs. CH701 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" <morawski@highway1.com.au>
Ihab.
The Savannah must be a direct copy of the 701, the dimensions mostly are too
close for coincidence.
They have changed the vertical and horizontal tail design. All flying rudder
is gone in favour of standard fin and rudder, inverted airfoil stab is
simmetrical. The wing has full length rear spar with small ribs behind and
slightly wider span. Cabin roof follows the line of the wing giving much
more headroom. Those are the major changes,
there a quite a few little enhancements.
Rick Morawski
morawski@highway1.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ihab A.B. Awad" <ihab@ahc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ihab A.B. Awad" <ihab@ahc.umn.edu>
>
>
> On Tuesday 30 March 2004 12:41, ALEMBIC7@aol.com wrote:
> > Just a thought re ethics...how about if you build a Savannah you buy a
set
> > of 701 plans from ZAC...that gives you the right to build one to Chris's
> > design...seems only fair...
>
> Sounds like a great idea to me....
>
> Just f-my-i, what *is* the similarity between the CH and Savannah designs?
Is
>
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
Now that I've read through about 15 gazillion posts on fuel systems for
ZAC's planes, it only emphasizes that ZAC should get their act together
and come up with a design that everyone can live with. Personally, I'm
following their recommendations, but that includes rubber fuel lines to
barbed fittings (taboo to many), pump sucking fuel (taboo to at least
one), and a fuel selector valve and gascolators. For crying out loud --
if we have to design our own airplane, why buy a kit?
Hopefully what ZAC recommends, works. If not, then why is it on their
plans? I know it's experimental aviation, but geez...
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive
Message 74
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| Subject: | Re: Aux fuel tanks |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> How many are putting in auxiliary fuel tanks?
I put 'em in. Not sure how often I'll actually fill them, but to me the
relatively small extra expense while the wing was open was worth it for
the extra range if needed.
> What do you guys think are the pros and cons.
Other than the small extra expense and the work installing them, I can't
think of any other cons. The pros are longer range, and perhaps more
redundancy if you have all four tanks to feed fuel from.
> what #'s do you think I can expect from the XL Corvair.
No idea yet, but I'll find out soon as I'll also install a 'Vair engine.
I expect the performance to be as good as most any other powerplant out
there. If that turns out to be true, then I'll rejoice at all that $$$$
I'm saving by not using the far more expensive Rotax, Jabiru, Lycoming,
etc. If not, I can always change later I suppose.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Message 75
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
Randy,
That paint looks reaaly good. I have used it on a fiberglass boat hull with
excellent results, and wondered about using on my 701. I am glad someone else
is leading the way. Rolling sounds so easy compared with setting up and
finding equipment to spray, though I know most people manage it.
In am wondering the reason you thinned the paint as much as you did. Could
you get a good finish with fewer coats with less thinning?
Jim Greenough
701 in Portland
Message 76
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| Subject: | barbed hose fittings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick <rick.pitcher@verizon.net>
I just read the post from Mike F. talking about (among other things)
rubber fuel lines and barbed hose fittings being considered "taboo to
some". I heard the same thing about the barbed fittings from someone
else today, but he didn't go into WHY they were considered to be taboo.
I used them on my Zodiac's fuel system because they came with the fuel
kit. I also used them on the oil cooler lines because they came with the
oil cooler kit from Jabiru. Can anyone elaborate on WHY they are frowned
upon?
They sure do grip the rubber hoses... or at least I THOUGHT they did
until this morning when one of the oil cooler lines sprung a leak while
shooting touch-n-go's. The EIS's blinking light came on while on
downwind for landing. I watched as the EIS displayed the oil pressure
dropping from 15... 10... 7... 5... at that point I shut off the engine
and glided back to the runway. Made it OK, but Geeze, what a mess. Glad
I was in the traffic pattern and not over the mountains!
After I got towed back to my parking spot on the ramp I pulled the
rubber transmission cooler lines off and replaced them with some
heavy-duty oil hoses with stainless steel braiding covering the rubber
tubing. Maybe I should get rid of the barbed fittings too?
Rick Pitcher
601HD
Message 77
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selectors |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mr Barry Mayne" <bazmay@bigpond.com>
G'day Ron,
Your system sounds almost identical to mine except I have kept the header
sight tube and at the "T" piece at the top of the tank is where I connected
the feed from the wing tanks. With the sight tube I have 2 indications that
fuel is pumping, a light on the panel and a dribble of fuel going down the
sight tube. Incidently down here in OZ we use litres and the Facet fuel pump
on the centre console from the wing tanks produces exactly 2 litres / min.
so I usually transfer 5 minutes ( 10 litres ) from each wing which makes it
easy to do the fuel calculations. With the header tank supplying gravity
feed to the bottom fitted carby on the Jabiru 3300 engine, even if both the
engine driven pump and the backup electric pump fail you still have fuel
supply.
Cheers
Barry Mayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" <rdewees@mindspring.com>
>
> I really don't want to throw fuel on this thread , but went a different
> direction with my fuel system on my 601 HDS. I have heard of a whole lot
> more fuel management engine outs and crashes than cremated pilots in
> inverted crashes using header tanks.
> I installed an 8 gallon header tank for my primary fuel source, thus
using
> gravity as the primary supply source and a mechanical and electric pump
for
> backup. I use the wing tanks to supply fuel to the TOP of the header
tank.
> I have a gas collator at the lowest part of each wing tank and feed their
> outputs into a selector switch in the center console . The selector has
> Left, Right, and OFF position. The output of this selector goes to a
Facet
> pump whose output goes to the top of the header tank. If either wing tank
> goes to empty, the pump can push air or whatever into the top of the
header
> tank and cause no problem. Other than being inverted, the attitude of the
> wing tank will be irrelevant unless I run the header tank dry, which I
don't
> plan on doing. I have a capacitive fuel gauge on the header tank and can
> see when the tank is full. Seems like a good tradeoff rather than even
> speculating on which wing tank is empty or low or pumping air or gas.
> Worst case is over an hour of flight with header tank alone and a lot of
> time to find a landing spot.
>
> Ron D
>
>
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