---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/31/04: 92 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:23 AM - Re: Paint (Randall Stout) 2. 03:47 AM - Re: Physics of Vapour lock (Bob Miller) 3. 03:50 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings (Bob Miller) 4. 04:21 AM - Re: Paint (sportpilot) 5. 05:12 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Cy Galley) 6. 05:46 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Ron DeWees) 7. 06:20 AM - Re: Savannah vs. CH701 (Larry Martin) 8. 06:20 AM - Re: Aux fuel tanks (Larry Martin) 9. 06:36 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Larry Martin) 10. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Physics of Vapour lock (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 11. 08:15 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings (Rick) 12. 08:32 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Thomas F Marson) 13. 08:35 AM - Vacuum Pump (Andrew SanClemente) 14. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Physics of Vapour lock (Thomas F Marson) 15. 08:38 AM - Re: Aux fuel tanks (Dirk Slabbert) 16. 09:21 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings (Leo J. Corbalis) 17. 09:25 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings (Dirk Slabbert) 18. 09:34 AM - Re: Vacuum Pump (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 19. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: Physics of Vapour lock (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 20. 09:46 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings (Dave Pepper) 21. 10:02 AM - Re: Vacuum Pump (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 22. 10:07 AM - Re: Fuel selectors (Gary Gower) 23. 10:08 AM - Sport Pilot Article on Fuel selectors and Vapour Lock (Bob Miller) 24. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Physics of Vapour lock (Bob Miller) 25. 10:17 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings () 26. 10:26 AM - Re: Vacuum Pump (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 27. 10:29 AM - Re: Vacuum Pump () 28. 10:44 AM - Re: Sport Pilot Article on Fuel selectors and Vapou (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 29. 10:56 AM - UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? (Grant Corriveau) 30. 11:07 AM - Great Zodiac XL for sale... (Grant Corriveau) 31. 11:10 AM - Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" (Traveling Man) 32. 11:14 AM - Re: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes (Gordon Duke) 33. 11:14 AM - Re: Vacuum Pump (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 34. 11:16 AM - Re: barbed hose fittings (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 35. 11:53 AM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Wayne McIntosh) 36. 12:04 PM - Re: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? (Dan knezacek) 37. 12:04 PM - Re: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? (Larry McFarland) 38. 12:27 PM - Re: barbed hose fittings (Cy Galley) 39. 12:30 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 40. 12:37 PM - Re: Vacuum Pump (Andrew SanClemente) 41. 12:37 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper) 42. 12:40 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper) 43. 12:53 PM - Re: barbed hose fittings (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 44. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes (David & Maria Lumgair) 45. 01:03 PM - Re: Great Zodiac XL for sale... (Dan knezacek) 46. 01:07 PM - Re: Vacuum Pump (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 47. 01:10 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 48. 01:17 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper) 49. 01:19 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper) 50. 01:29 PM - Plastic-protection (Chris Weber) 51. 01:40 PM - Re: Vacuum Pump (Robert Schoenberger) 52. 01:46 PM - Re: Vacuum Pump (Stanley Challgren) 53. 01:50 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (George Swinford) 54. 02:09 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 55. 02:12 PM - Re: Vacuum Pump (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 56. 02:19 PM - Re: Savannah vs CH701 (Gordon Duke) 57. 02:48 PM - Re: Vacuum Pump (Ron DeWees) 58. 02:54 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Bryan Martin) 59. 03:17 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper) 60. 03:17 PM - Re: Fuel Bladders (Dave Pepper) 61. 03:40 PM - Re: Hoses & Pumps (wizard-24@juno.com) 62. 03:49 PM - Re: Hoses & Pumps (Dave Pepper) 63. 04:16 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (Dave Pepper) 64. 04:17 PM - Re: Re: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes (Scott Laughlin) 65. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Bladders (ALEMBIC7@aol.com) 66. 05:00 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 67. 05:08 PM - Re: Plastic-protection (Cy Galley) 68. 05:14 PM - Re: Hoses & Pumps (Gary Gower) 69. 05:26 PM - Re: barbed hose fittings (The Meiste's) 70. 05:27 PM - Corvair (Brandon Tucker) 71. 05:31 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (Joemotis@aol.com) 72. 05:38 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (bad luck?) (Gary Gower) 73. 05:58 PM - Re: Hoses & Pumps (wizard-24@juno.com) 74. 06:40 PM - Dead Horse (ZSMITH3rd@aol.com) 75. 07:01 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (Dave Pepper) 76. 07:06 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (bad luck?) (Dave Pepper) 77. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: Savannah vs CH701 (Larry Martin) 78. 07:34 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Larry Martin) 79. 07:41 PM - Re: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? (Thomas F Marson) 80. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes (Thomas F Marson) 81. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Physics of Vapour lock (Thomas F Marson) 82. 08:08 PM - Re: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? (Jim and Lucy) 83. 08:17 PM - skydat (Bill Cardell) 84. 08:25 PM - Re: Plastic-protection (Thomas F Marson) 85. 08:25 PM - Re: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? (Thomas F Marson) 86. 08:29 PM - Re: skydat (Dave Pepper) 87. 08:38 PM - Hose clamps (Jim and Lucy) 88. 09:16 PM - Re: Re: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes (morawski@highway1.com.au) 89. 09:21 PM - Re: Hoses & Pumps (Bryan Martin) 90. 09:31 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (Bryan Martin) 91. 09:54 PM - Re: Fuel tanks (Bryan Martin) 92. 10:52 PM - Re: Fuel selectors (Thomas F Marson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:02 AM PST US From: Randall Stout Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: Randall Stout Actually, I thinned it according to the instructions. With it being so thin, it flows out smoother than it would otherwise. It takes several coats to get a good finish, but it doesn't take much paint. I used 1.5 quarts to do the blue and I figure it will take about 4 quarts to do the white. As for ease of rolling vs. spraying, the tough part is preparation. Everything has to be clean and taped off no matter which way you go. I just don't have to create a paint booth, deal with breathing equipment, and overspray. Randy Stout - San Antonio n282rs@sbcglobal.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 >>>> Rolling sounds so easy compared with setting up and finding equipment to spray, though I know most people manage it. In am wondering the reason you thinned the paint as much as you did. Could you get a good finish with fewer coats with less thinning? Jim Greenough 701 in Portland<<<<<<< ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:22 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Frank, Thanks for bringing us back to the elementals. I have a 16 gallon header tank only, with an electric fuel pump parallel to the mechanical pump. Since the electric pump is below the header tank, does this mean that vapour lock is eliminated or overcome when this pump is on? Bob ----- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:50:15 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Sure glad you were close to the field, had an EIS with a warning light, and up on your dead-stick landings, Rick. Where exactly was the leak, and what do you think happened? I sure hope this spurs some good discussion, cause I have a Jabiru with rubber hoses and barbed fittings. Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:37 AM PST US From: "sportpilot" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint --> Zenith-List message posted by: "sportpilot" Randy I need to come see your plane , I am from corpus chirsti.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall Stout" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Paint > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Randall Stout > > Actually, I thinned it according to the instructions. With it being so thin, it flows out smoother than it would otherwise. It takes several coats to get a good finish, but it doesn't take much paint. I used 1.5 quarts to do the blue and I figure it will take about 4 quarts to do the white. > > As for ease of rolling vs. spraying, the tough part is preparation. Everything has to be clean and taped off no matter which way you go. I just don't have to create a paint booth, deal with breathing equipment, and overspray. > > Randy Stout - San Antonio > n282rs@sbcglobal.net > www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > > > >>>> Rolling sounds so easy compared with setting up and > finding equipment to spray, though I know most people manage it. > > In am wondering the reason you thinned the paint as much as you did. > Could you get a good finish with fewer coats with less thinning? > > Jim Greenough > 701 in Portland<<<<<<< > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:30 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" The conversation has me convinced. IF you are pumping from 2 sources and one goes dry you will pump air. BUT if you have a pump pumping from a single source then you are go to go until you pump it dry. If you have two tanks and use two pumps then you are good to go. One pump, two tanks and you have a problem. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Russell" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell > > After a lot of consideration on the fuel system and some discussion with the eaa adviser I went for the left both right valve. Sucking air is not an issue because you can simply switch to left or right if this happens. If you use a left/right valve you would still suck air when one tank emptied and would have to switch anyway. If you use ZAC's design with the shut off valve at each tank you will still be having to shut off one of the valves on a dry tank. Besides that, I have never ran a tank dry in any plane I have flown. Most of the time I get fuel at 1/2 tanks. > > > Jack Russell -Clovis CA > 601 XL Jabiru 3300 > Progress update at: > http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:05 AM PST US From: "Ron DeWees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" Hi Mike, I guess ZAC is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They designed a simple and safe center stick and lots don't like that . Apparantly there IS no design that everyone can live with. That's why it's an experimental plane, I guess. Just my observation, Ron D ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > Now that I've read through about 15 gazillion posts on fuel systems for > ZAC's planes, it only emphasizes that ZAC should get their act together > and come up with a design that everyone can live with. "snip" > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:44 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" I guess it doesn't really matter, because I don't remember seeing any copyright or design patents by Zenith. So it's open season, and Zenith or anyone else doesn't have a right to bitch. I looked at the Savannah very hard before I bought my 701 kit. There are some significant differences, what I call improvements. If the Savannah was manufactured in the USA I probably would have went that way. I got on the Savannah forum and saw too many war stories about bad parts, missing parts and having to wait 5 months for replacements. Two things I really liked about the Savannah was the seats and the fact it is a lot closer to 49% provided, Zenith is more like 29%. I like dealing with people close to home that speak American. I e-mail the Savannah folks with a couple of questions and it took a few weeks to get an answer. ZAC answers immediately. That's worth a lot to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ihab A.B. Awad" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Savannah vs. CH701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ihab A.B. Awad" > > > On Tuesday 30 March 2004 12:41, ALEMBIC7@aol.com wrote: > > Just a thought re ethics...how about if you build a Savannah you buy a set > > of 701 plans from ZAC...that gives you the right to build one to Chris's > > design...seems only fair... > > Sounds like a great idea to me.... > > Just f-my-i, what *is* the similarity between the CH and Savannah designs? Is > the Savannah design a line-for-line copy of the blueprints? Certainly, they > must have used some CAD software to design the parts. Did they redesign the > whole thing from scratch while "studying" the CH plans, or did they import > CH's CAD files or scan in his drawings? > > Peace, > > Ihab > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:44 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" I am putting in extra tanks on my PegaStol wings. I will have a total capacity of 32 gals. Major over kill. But, I was thinking about resale value and they are there if I need them. They would be pretty difficult to install after the fact, so why not? ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel tanks > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > How many are putting in auxiliary fuel tanks? > > I put 'em in. Not sure how often I'll actually fill them, but to me the > relatively small extra expense while the wing was open was worth it for > the extra range if needed. > > > What do you guys think are the pros and cons. > > Other than the small extra expense and the work installing them, I can't > think of any other cons. The pros are longer range, and perhaps more > redundancy if you have all four tanks to feed fuel from. > > > what #'s do you think I can expect from the XL Corvair. > > No idea yet, but I'll find out soon as I'll also install a 'Vair engine. > I expect the performance to be as good as most any other powerplant out > there. If that turns out to be true, then I'll rejoice at all that $$$$ > I'm saving by not using the far more expensive Rotax, Jabiru, Lycoming, > etc. If not, I can always change later I suppose. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:10 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" You are exactly right. Zac's stick is simple and safe. I don't have a problem with it. I just think there is a better way. That's why we evolve. It is in mine and many other's nature to attempt to improve things. Sometimes we are wrong but more often than not we are correct. Someone on this forum said to "resist change", that is totally counter to the American way and absolutely asinine. I could understand a resistance to change just for the sake of change, but if we had resisted change, we would still be riding bicycles or even less. I change things because I like it better and in my opinion it's an improvement or better way of doing what ever we do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron DeWees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" > > Hi Mike, > I guess ZAC is damned if they do and damned if they don't. They designed a > simple and safe center stick and lots don't like that . Apparantly there > IS no design that everyone can live with. That's why it's an experimental > plane, I guess. > > Just my observation, > Ron D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > > > Now that I've read through about 15 gazillion posts on fuel systems for > > ZAC's planes, it only emphasizes that ZAC should get their act together > > and come up with a design that everyone can live with. > "snip" > > Mike Fortunato > > 601XL > > > > --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:10 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Absolutly....What you have is a "flooded suction" system which is what any industrial pumping system attempts to achieve. The only way you would get vapour lock is if you plugged the strainer in the tank...Highly unlikely. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" --> Frank, Thanks for bringing us back to the elementals. I have a 16 gallon header tank only, with an electric fuel pump parallel to the mechanical pump. Since the electric pump is below the header tank, does this mean that vapour lock is eliminated or overcome when this pump is on? Bob ----- advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:36 AM PST US From: Rick Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Bob Miller wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > Sure glad you were close to the field, had an EIS with a warning light, and > up on your dead-stick landings, Rick. Where exactly was the leak, and what > do you think happened? I sure hope this spurs some good discussion, cause I > have a Jabiru with rubber hoses and barbed fittings. > Bob That EIS with it's big red blinking light sure helped! I doubt that I would have caught the sudden drop in oil pressure without the warning light. The leak was at the barbed fitting and hose connection. When I put the new oil cooler in I had to change one of the lines to fit the new installation, the other line still fit nicely so I left it alone. The one that I DIDN'T change was the one that developed the leak. I had just changed the oil and filter, and while unscrewing the filter the adapter started to unscrew too. I held the adapter with one hand and finished unscrewing the filter. When I put the new filter on the adapter screwed back in and stopped a little past the spot where it had originally been. The lines weren't stressed, so I left it where it wanted to stay and safetied the filter. I started the engine and let it run for about 30 seconds, then shut it off and checked for leaks... everything was dry. I think that the jostling about of the lines allowed the old line to change position a little, apparently enough to allow a little bit of oil to start leaking past the barbs once the engine warmed up and the pressure went to max. When I removed the lines I noticed that the clamp on the leaky fitting was looser than the others, maybe due to the rubber hose relaxing under the clamp as things settled in over the last 25 hours of flight. That's my theory at this point anyway, looking for other's experience to see if anything else might have contributed to the leak. I did add another hose clamp on each connection when I changed the hoses, a little bit of redundancy just in case one of the clamps gets loose again. The plane sure glided in nicely :) probably 'cause it was so slippery with all that oil on the belly ;) Rick ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:49 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Seems like the sum total of all this is a good short article in Sport Pilot. Fuel starvation is a major problem with homebuilts and when the smoke clears the answers and not too complex. But boy there are lots of "opinions" that are not correct. Seems like lots of people "hear" someting and accept it as fact without enough personal thought and evaluation. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > The conversation has me convinced. IF you are pumping from 2 sources and > one goes dry you will pump air. BUT if you have a pump pumping from a single > source then you are go to go until you pump it dry. If you have two tanks > and use two pumps then you are good to go. One pump, two tanks and you have > a problem. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:48 AM PST US From: Andrew SanClemente Subject: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente I have searched the archives regarding vacuum systems and see that most have either gone with an electric panel or use a venturi. Has anyone out there used a vacuum pump and if so can you let me in on the details of what you used? I may still use a venturi but I would really like my gyro's spooled up from the get-go. Thanks Andrew (601 HDS / Stratus EA-81) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:01 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Probably is eliminated ---- but not if you have a section of fuel line between the header tank and the electric pump AND IF THAT LINE IS EXPOSED TO HOT ENGINE COMPARTMENT TEMPS. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > Frank, > Thanks for bringing us back to the elementals. I have a 16 gallon header > tank only, with an electric fuel pump parallel to the mechanical pump. > Since the electric pump is below the header tank, does this mean that vapour > lock is eliminated or overcome when this pump is on? > Bob > ----- > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:09 AM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" Dunno Larry, them Pego Stol slats have a mind of their own as it is, now you're loading them heavy too.... May work in cold, smooth air, but hot an thermic ? bet you'll have a hand full. What if it goes wrong close to ground, slow, slat pulls in due to a strong thermal, with the wing loaded, then you drop a wing ....something about this worries me. Dirk in Africa. ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Martin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" I am putting in extra tanks on my PegaStol wings. I will have a total capacity of 32 gals. Major over kill. But, I was thinking about resale value and they are there if I need them. They would be pretty difficult to install after the fact, so why not? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Aux fuel tanks > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > How many are putting in auxiliary fuel tanks? > > I put 'em in. Not sure how often I'll actually fill them, but to me the > relatively small extra expense while the wing was open was worth it for > the extra range if needed. > > > What do you guys think are the pros and cons. > > Other than the small extra expense and the work installing them, I can't > think of any other cons. The pros are longer range, and perhaps more > redundancy if you have all four tanks to feed fuel from. > > > what #'s do you think I can expect from the XL Corvair. > > No idea yet, but I'll find out soon as I'll also install a 'Vair engine. > I expect the performance to be as good as most any other powerplant out > there. If that turns out to be true, then I'll rejoice at all that $$$$ > I'm saving by not using the far more expensive Rotax, Jabiru, Lycoming, > etc. If not, I can always change later I suppose. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > --- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:25 AM PST US From: "Leo J. Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" I have barbed fittings WITH hose clamps. I never ever at any time reinstall the dented hose ends. I cut off the end or replace the whole hose. I have had Zero leakage problems. 410 hrs. I do stick to fabric renforced rubber hoses from the auto store. I arranged my plumbing so that replacing all the hoses is not too awful a job which I did after 6 years. Leo Corbalis ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:24 AM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" How about hydraulic hose type fittings? never seen them come loose, hose clamp scares me. Dirk. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Bob Miller wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > Sure glad you were close to the field, had an EIS with a warning light, and > up on your dead-stick landings, Rick. Where exactly was the leak, and what > do you think happened? I sure hope this spurs some good discussion, cause I > have a Jabiru with rubber hoses and barbed fittings. > Bob That EIS with it's big red blinking light sure helped! I doubt that I would have caught the sudden drop in oil pressure without the warning light. The leak was at the barbed fitting and hose connection. When I put the new oil cooler in I had to change one of the lines to fit the new installation, the other line still fit nicely so I left it alone. The one that I DIDN'T change was the one that developed the leak. I had just changed the oil and filter, and while unscrewing the filter the adapter started to unscrew too. I held the adapter with one hand and finished unscrewing the filter. When I put the new filter on the adapter screwed back in and stopped a little past the spot where it had originally been. The lines weren't stressed, so I left it where it wanted to stay and safetied the filter. I started the engine and let it run for about 30 seconds, then shut it off and checked for leaks... everything was dry. I think that the jostling about of the lines allowed the old line to change position a little, apparently enough to allow a little bit of oil to start leaking past the barbs once the engine warmed up and the pressure went to max. When I removed the lines I noticed that the clamp on the leaky fitting was looser than the others, maybe due to the rubber hose relaxing under the clamp as things settled in over the last 25 hours of flight. That's my theory at this point anyway, looking for other's experience to see if anything else might have contributed to the leak. I did add another hose clamp on each connection when I changed the hoses, a little bit of redundancy just in case one of the clamps gets loose again. The plane sure glided in nicely :) probably 'cause it was so slippery with all that oil on the belly ;) Rick ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:58 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Hmmm, You know there are much better ways to go than this...I know this 'cos I am researching it right now for my RV. What I can tell you is there is not a vacuum option with the Stratus nor anyone that I know of who has sucessfully made one. Vacuum pumps are junk anyway and Electric Gyro's cost a fourtune. The one guy I know used a venturi did not have a very sucessful installation...and lets face it, a venturi is big and ugly! What you want is a Dynon EFIS....Yes, for $2000 you get a state of the art solid state gyro based AI and DG together with a bunch of other functions depending on what sensors you buy. With a simple hookup to the Pitot/static system you get airspeed, altitude, rate of climb and angle of attack but this will require an additional sensor...Of course its highly desirable to have a ASI and altimeter as a backup but for an all in one package its hard to beat and that's not even mentioning the COOL factor of having this thing in your instrument panel. It fits in a standard 3 1/8 panel hole too. There are other EFIS systems but not for this price, many RV pilots are installing these for their primary IFR instrument...Can't be beat really. http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/efis-d10FAQ.html#Q1 Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew SanClemente Subject: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente --> I have searched the archives regarding vacuum systems and see that most have either gone with an electric panel or use a venturi. Has anyone out there used a vacuum pump and if so can you let me in on the details of what you used? I may still use a venturi but I would really like my gyro's spooled up from the get-go. Thanks Andrew (601 HDS / Stratus EA-81) advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:56 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" I don't think this is an issue in real life, The amount of heat the line will pickup is minimal. If your worried about it simply use a section of firesleeve to insulate the line, which if its flexible you would do anyway. Frank Probably is eliminated ---- but not if you have a section of fuel line between the header tank and the electric pump AND IF THAT LINE IS EXPOSED TO HOT ENGINE COMPARTMENT TEMPS. Tom ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:29 AM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Rotax installs their engine fuel pump with hose fittings! So I guess if they do that then it is a safe installation. Cars have hose fittings too, without any problems. And hose fittings seem a lot easier to connect than the gazillions of expensive AN fittings offered. What's really interesting is that most fluid leaks seem to occur with the AN fittings! I have rarely heard of a hose fitting leaking or failing, especially if secured with a hose clamp. Dave > How about hydraulic hose type fittings? never seen them come loose, hose clamp scares me. > Dirk. > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:00 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" OK now you got my creative juices flowing... Why do you want gyro instruments anyway?...Surely your not thinking of taking this plane IFR?...Assuming this is a VFR only plane I have a MUCH better solution to using Gyro's or the Dynon...This is unconventional so I hope your sitting down... I can tell you in 320 hours of flying the HDS I have NEVER felt the need for an AI...OK maybe once flying at night over the desert with NO horizon at all...more creepy than anything else certainly not dangerous. The only time I could have done with a DG is flying in crontrolled airspace when the controller gives you a new heading...a little bit of a pain with just a compass. So how about this?.....A single axis autopilot on the aileron's....Before you roll your eyes let me tell you about how the fast boys just LOVE the new Digitraks. You can get them on special for $1600 and I'm told they are good in scary turbulence...in fact they react faster than you can. So they will always keep your wings level...so you will never need an AI...:)...They have a digital readout of the heading slected on the front with a simple left and right arrow. The heading comes from its own solid state gyro and it will self adjust to fly the assigned course. Now the best bit...You can hook it up to your handheld GPS!...Thats right...simply put in your "Go TO" airport, engage the autopilot and the plane will swing round and fly you there completely hands off...It will even compensate for out of trim! I have been told by a user that he was flying at 90 degrees to the GPS course, engaged the A/P and the plane swung round and settle right on course wings perfectly level. How ***** cool is that? Want more?...For $1995 you can have the same autopilot with a solid state turn coordinator built into the A/P display.....If you have ever actually tried to use a mechanical TC you will see it never agrees with the horizon...a solid state device always will...Now you even have a reliable for of AI as well...:) For IFR work I'm going to use the Dynon backed up but this A/P with the turn coordinator. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew SanClemente Subject: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente --> I have searched the archives regarding vacuum systems and see that most have either gone with an electric panel or use a venturi. Has anyone out there used a vacuum pump and if so can you let me in on the details of what you used? I may still use a venturi but I would really like my gyro's spooled up from the get-go. Thanks Andrew (601 HDS / Stratus EA-81) advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:10 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Hello Mike, Well, I thought that I will not comment about this issue, I am not that expert, I couldnt resist this one, I have built (and helped built) a few projects. What I find VERY important in ZAC's airplanes is that they all have this things in common: Very simple airplane with KIS in capital letters, very strong, very light, easy to build (even that someones of us get lost in this simplicity:-) and low priced for its class. ...Also I forgot, maybe also not as fast (?) ;-) but very safe to fly and land. I am sure that the fuel system can be built like the one in any high$$ plane (certified of kits built), maybe with that high cost could be almost perfect and practically fool proof, but even sometimes fail (we can sadly remember TWA 800 fight, for example). I will like to know of a failure (in a ZAC plane) when the fuel system was built acording with ZAC plans and/or the engine manufacturer. Facts not hangar talk. This will be very educative for me and for all of us. I have about 2 years in the list and about 18 years of building experience and also reading homebuilt aviation related articles and magazines, also some years in internet. Maybe I am not totaly right, but I cant remember reading of a engine problem (fuel related), where the builder didnt "improved or modified" the design... Also the experienced builders in this list can back me up: The more inexperienced we are in building, the more modifications we want to do to the plans, This I something I fight everyday, with me and the builders in my area, is dificult. KIS Friends KIS! Remember: The most inteligent thinker is the one that makes his invetions as simple as possible, is easy to complicate things. Saludos Gary Gower. 701 912S A few weeks away (I hope) from testing the simple ZACs fuel system in the air :-) --- wizard-24@juno.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > Now that I've read through about 15 gazillion posts on fuel systems > for > ZAC's planes, it only emphasizes that ZAC should get their act > together > and come up with a design that everyone can live with. Personally, > I'm > following their recommendations, but that includes rubber fuel lines > to > barbed fittings (taboo to many), pump sucking fuel (taboo to at least > one), and a fuel selector valve and gascolators. For crying out loud > -- > if we have to design our own airplane, why buy a kit? > > Hopefully what ZAC recommends, works. If not, then why is it on their > plans? I know it's experimental aviation, but geez... > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > do not archive > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:04 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot Article on Fuel selectors and Vapour Lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" That sounds like a great idea. Hint, hint...Frank do you copy? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" > > Seems like the sum total of all this is a good short article in Sport Pilot. > > Fuel starvation is a major problem with homebuilts and when the smoke > clears the answers and not too complex. But boy there are lots of "opinions" > that are not correct. Seems like lots of people "hear" someting and accept > it as fact without enough personal thought and evaluation. > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cy Galley" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > The conversation has me convinced. IF you are pumping from 2 sources and > > one goes dry you will pump air. BUT if you have a pump pumping from a > single > > source then you are go to go until you pump it dry. If you have two tanks > > and use two pumps then you are good to go. One pump, two tanks and you > have > > a problem. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:18 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Yep, there is a section like that, and the electric pump sucks fuel downstream of the gascolator in the engine compartment. But where would vapour form in this system upstream from the elec pump? And if it did form, wouldn't it move upward to the tank? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" > > Probably is eliminated ---- but not if you have a section of fuel line > between the header tank and the electric pump AND IF THAT LINE IS EXPOSED TO > HOT ENGINE COMPARTMENT TEMPS. Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Miller" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > > > > Frank, > > Thanks for bringing us back to the elementals. I have a 16 gallon header > > tank only, with an electric fuel pump parallel to the mechanical pump. > > Since the electric pump is below the header tank, does this mean that > vapour > > lock is eliminated or overcome when this pump is on? > > Bob > > ----- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: I don't like rubber hose! I've used aluminum tubing with Swagelok fittings for oil, fuel, hydraulic & instrument lines. No barbs/no rubber except for 6" flex-section at Rotax Pierberg fuel pump. No issues in 470 some hours. GGP ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:18 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Check here on the Auto pilot. http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsdigiflightslick.html Real world flying in an HDS tells me one of these would be very sweet indeed. Frank HDS /Stratus, with Ram heads 320 hours I have searched the archives regarding vacuum systems and see that most have either gone with an electric panel or use a venturi. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:41 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: The 4-cylinder Rotax engines are designed to accept a vacuum pump driven by the integral gearbox. Mine's worked well for 356 hours so far! Cost was about $550 + $150. some 6 years ago. GGP ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:14 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot Article on Fuel selectors and Vapou r Lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Yes and some opinions are from folks who are professional engineers with 20 years of designing pumping systems. Sure there are many designs even on certified airplanes that are questionable, I,e yes you CAN get away with sucking AVGAS uphill but does it make sense to do it when there are better ways? I will read the article and correct for errors....:)...A bit like when my Boss tells me to take a class...does he mean take it or teach it?....:) Humbly yours! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: Sport Pilot Article on Fuel selectors and Vapour Lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" --> That sounds like a great idea. Hint, hint...Frank do you copy? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" > > Seems like the sum total of all this is a good short article in Sport Pilot. > > Fuel starvation is a major problem with homebuilts and when the > smoke clears the answers and not too complex. But boy there are lots > of "opinions" > that are not correct. Seems like lots of people "hear" someting and > accept it as fact without enough personal thought and evaluation. > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cy Galley" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > The conversation has me convinced. IF you are pumping from 2 > > sources and > > one goes dry you will pump air. BUT if you have a pump pumping from > > a > single > > source then you are go to go until you pump it dry. If you have two tanks > > and use two pumps then you are good to go. One pump, two tanks and > > you > have > > a problem. > > > > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:08 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau Hi all, Been 'lurking' the digest version for a while -- not much to say (surprise!)... However the imminent threat of summer has me thinking flying again. I found and fixed the problem with my CAM100 ignition -- finally -- now if the engine still runs, I'm in business (it was a magnet with a 'burr' that was touching the face of the Hall Effect sensors when the gap became small due to engine heating)... Now I've found that my nose gear bearings (and others?) have worn very quickly and I want to make some plastic bearings from that nice white plastic stuff -- UHMEP..Z?..X?? You know what I'm talking about - right? Does someone remember offhand how big and thick a slice is needed to do all the top and lower gear strut bearings? And a good source? Or can you at least remind me of the proper name for this stuff so I can search the archives...? BTW - I think my bearings may be wearing so fast because of the industrial chrome finish on the struts -- is this possible? Does this finish have a rougher texture against the aluminum than the original steel leg? If that's not the reason, then I'm stumped. Tony Colucci operates from the same field, and his bearings with the original steel legs are lasting longer than this... Thanks, -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Great Zodiac XL for sale... From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau I was talking to Art Mitchell recently (original founder/owner of Flypast)... He's returned to missionary work with Mission Aviation Fellowship of Canada, and mentioned that he is considering selling his own 'XL' --- This one was manufactured in the Czech Republic (i.e. exquisite workmanship), and has the fibreglass gear legs... If anyone's interested they can contact Art at: Mitchell, Art P. BTW, I've signed on as MAFC's volunteer area rep in Montreal, so Art is now my boss! Maybe you'll see us setting up an MAFC booth some day at an airshow near you?? Who knows... In case you're interested - check out the MAF sites at: www.mafc.org (Canada) or www.maf.org (USA) And while I'm posting 'Airplane For Sale' ads -- the STOL 701 that flew 3/4 of the way around the world is still parked at my local airstrip -- a testament to Canadian Beauracracy gone mad -- and is probably for sale in case anyone's interested. This a/c was also manufactured in the Czech Republic and the local Rotax dealer has commented, it's one of the "best-built aircraft" he's seen. If it's not sold here soon, I suspect it'll be crated and shipped back to Slovenia. Regards, -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:55 AM PST US From: "Traveling Man" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HDS "Sport Pilot?" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" In reading this thread I note several individuals commenting on the new Sport Pilot/Light Sport Aircraft rule. I think its important that we all realize that until its approved and published all we know is what the last proposal was. No one I've talked to, including Zenith, and the E.A.A. Sport Pilot phone line people KNOW what SP/LSA is going to be in its final form. The rule could undergo several radical changes. The indications are that Gross Weight will go up, that the stall speed limitations will remain as is, but those are only indications. Phillip - There is a builder in Florida that turned the wing root fairings into 17 inch (?) wide flaps on his plane, I conntacted him and I think he said he got about 5 mph knocked off the stall speed. I don't kow if that will bring it into SP/LSA proposed limits though. Good Luck Bob Lindley CH601-HD - I got a rudder and lots of paper now! 97% to go. All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:21 AM PST US From: "Gordon Duke" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" Hi: On the issue of punched holes, a friend who took a metal-working class tells me that the instructor specifically said not to punch aluminum for aircraft structural parts. His explanation was that (1) punching stresses the metal in ways that drilling does not and (2) punching may create micro-cracks that could propagate and these cannot be deburred out on the front side of the punched hole and (3) the back side of the punched hole should be deburred for the same reasons as a drilled hole. == Gordon Duke St. Paul, MN USA 701 rudder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" Hope I can have some meaningful input into this thread. I built a 701 over three years (1300+ hours) and then pranged it after just 56 hours flying. I didn't want to go through all that building again so I bought a Savannah ( I call it a Savannoh one) I have completed all assembly (rivetting etc) after just 132 hours and should be ready to paint in a few more hours work. How?? All (99%)the parts are made and accurately. You just assemble. Mostly you dont even have to deburr because the holes are punched not drilled, just whack em together and rivet. For example, one wing in a weekend, all slats in a day, all ailerons in a day, horizontal stab in a day, rear fuse in a day. The metal is stamped and looks to come from the same mills as the ZAC parts and most parts are beautifully cut and finished. There are some small but nice improvements which 701 scratch builders could use. (Could they sue if you copied?) and I think it is every bit as strong if not more so. Mine is legal for 520kg MTOW. I can't say anything about flying qualities yet as I havent flown but will let you know when it happens I havn't grappled with the moral/ ethical question - I just want to fly sooner than later. Rick Morawski morawski@highway1.com.au ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:42 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" My point is that vacuum pumps are subject to regular maintenance/rebuilds and are generally limited as are most mechanical instruments, gyro's included. Apart from the fact one can't fit a vacuum pump to a Stratus, I am simply saying there are better ways, as long as you are talking about "experimental aircraft". Case in point, Gyro's will not tolerate aerobatics (ok so not too relevent in a ZAC) but solid state gyros are (claimed to be) bullet proof. So bottom line the solid state gyro systems (either EFIS's or autopilots) looki like a much better long term solution. FRank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.pinneo@ngc.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: The 4-cylinder Rotax engines are designed to accept a vacuum pump driven by the integral gearbox. Mine's worked well for 356 hours so far! Cost was about $550 + $150. some 6 years ago. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:55 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" I have to agree, rubber hose on a high pressure oil line would seem a lot hokey to me. For fuel at 5psi I am OK with, providing the flex lines are not in the cockpit...Metal will not burn through in the case of fire.. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.pinneo@ngc.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: I don't like rubber hose! I've used aluminum tubing with Swagelok fittings for oil, fuel, hydraulic & instrument lines. No barbs/no rubber except for 6" flex-section at Rotax Pierberg fuel pump. No issues in 470 some hours. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:19 AM PST US From: "Wayne McIntosh" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wayne McIntosh" Dave, I talked to the people from Eagle Fuel Cells from Eagle River WI, when I was at Oshkosh last Summer. They say their fuel cells are resistant to anything used in auto or aviation fuels. They will make any shape fuel cell you want. I was told that a simple rectangular tank of aproximately10 gallons cost around $400.00. The more unusual the shape and the more complex the fittings are will add to the cost. They can also furnish foam like blocks to fill up the inside of the tank to reduce the chance of sloshing and explosion in an accident, this will also add to the cost. The Eagle Fuel Cell people told me that a fuel cell was less likely to be punctured in an accident and seldom leak although they can be repaired if they should become punctured. A neat thing about fuel cells is that they can be removed from the plane through the opening where the filler is. Also the cell must be completely contained on all sides. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Pepper" > > Has anyone considered using rubberized fuel bladders in the wing lockers, to fit the entire area? Or is this a no-no? I'm trying to maximize the fuel in the lockers without going to LE tanks or having a header tank. Or maybe a custom aluminium tank in the shape of the locker is best. Any comments are always appreciated. > > Thanks.....Dave > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:26 PM PST US From: "Dan knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" Hi Grant, I believe it's UHMW, standing for Ultra HIgh Molecular Weight. (Polyethylene, I think) I got mine from a local machine shop. Are both top and bottom bearings wearing or just the bottom ones? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Corriveau" Subject: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > Hi all, > > Been 'lurking' the digest version for a while -- not much to say > (surprise!)... > > However the imminent threat of summer has me thinking flying again. I found > and fixed the problem with my CAM100 ignition -- finally -- now if the > engine still runs, I'm in business (it was a magnet with a 'burr' that was > touching the face of the Hall Effect sensors when the gap became small due > to engine heating)... > > Now I've found that my nose gear bearings (and others?) have worn very > quickly and I want to make some plastic bearings from that nice white > plastic stuff -- UHMEP..Z?..X?? You know what I'm talking about - right? > Does someone remember offhand how big and thick a slice is needed to do all > the top and lower gear strut bearings? And a good source? Or can you at > least remind me of the proper name for this stuff so I can search the > archives...? > > BTW - I think my bearings may be wearing so fast because of the industrial > chrome finish on the struts -- is this possible? Does this finish have a > rougher texture against the aluminum than the original steel leg? If that's > not the reason, then I'm stumped. Tony Colucci operates from the same > field, and his bearings with the original steel legs are lasting longer than > this... > > Thanks, > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:39 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Grant, What you're looking for is Ultra-high Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMW) The stuff I used was a Delrin product. Could have used Nylon 6/6, but that's what I had. A good source for these is McMaster - Carr Supply Co PO Box 4355, Chicago, IL 60680-4355. Their catalog is on the internet. They sell sheets 12" x 24" x 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", etc. About $30. then, for the 1/2", what I used and I turned the hole in a square and tapered the outside the hole down to a flange about 5/16" thick. Really nice people to deal with. Extremely prompt on delivery. Sales Desk 1-630-833-0300 Subject: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? > Now I've found that my nose gear bearings (and others?) have worn very > quickly and I want to make some plastic bearings from that nice white > plastic stuff -- UHMEP..Z?..X?? You know what I'm talking about - right? > Does someone remember offhand how big and thick a slice is needed to do all > the top and lower gear strut bearings? And a good source? > Thanks, > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:48 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Don't want to burst your balloon but Aluminum tubing will quickly melt so it doesn't make any difference whether the fuel line burns or melts, it will feed the fire. Fire sleeve any fuel or oil line in front of the firewall. Many fires are started when the exhaust system fails and the hot gasses melt fuel or oil lines, carb bowls, and the like. There is a reason that we need firewalls. FAA even made Bellanca replace an aluminum heater intake and replace with steel. Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > I have to agree, rubber hose on a high pressure oil line would seem a lot > hokey to me. > > For fuel at 5psi I am OK with, providing the flex lines are not in the > cockpit...Metal will not burn through in the case of fire.. > > Frank > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > george.pinneo@ngc.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > I don't like rubber hose! I've used aluminum tubing with Swagelok fittings > for oil, fuel, hydraulic & instrument lines. No barbs/no rubber except for > 6" flex-section at Rotax Pierberg fuel pump. No issues in 470 some hours. > > GGP > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:15 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Not sure what the motivation is to avoid LE tanks Vs. locker tanks. My guess is that the wings are already buttoned up and the builder does not want to unzip them. What I can tell you is that unzipping the wings is really not that hard...I did it to mine twice, once bacause the LE tanks became available after I finished my wings and once to weld one of the tanks that developed a leak. Its preety easy to drill the rivet heads without touching the skin underneath. What is important is to pilot drill them first with a 3/32nd drill bit then follow through with a 1/8th bit very slowly. The head will snap off before the drill bit touches the skin. Sounds tricky but you will get pretty quick at doing this after a few. The advantage is the LE tanks take up space that can't be used for anything else...but still leaves the winglockers for baggage. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne McIntosh Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Wayne McIntosh" --> Dave, I talked to the people from Eagle Fuel Cells from Eagle River WI, when I was at Oshkosh last Summer. They say their fuel cells are resistant to anything used in auto or aviation fuels. They will make any shape fuel cell you want. I was told that a simple rectangular tank of aproximately10 gallons cost around $400.00. The more unusual the shape and the more complex the fittings are will add to the cost. They can also furnish foam like blocks to fill up the inside of the tank to reduce the chance of sloshing and explosion in an accident, this will also add to the cost. The Eagle Fuel Cell people told me that a fuel cell was less likely to be punctured in an accident and seldom leak although they can be repaired if they should become punctured. A neat thing about fuel cells is that they can be removed from the plane through the opening where the filler is. Also the cell must be completely contained on all sides. Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Pepper" > > Has anyone considered using rubberized fuel bladders in the wing > lockers, to fit the entire area? Or is this a no-no? I'm trying to maximize the fuel in the lockers without going to LE tanks or having a header tank. Or maybe a custom aluminium tank in the shape of the locker is best. Any comments are always appreciated. > > Thanks.....Dave > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:38 PM PST US From: Andrew SanClemente Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente Problem with going without vacuum instruments or substituting a new piece of equipment is that my panel is done and installed, including vacuum driven gyros. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put more up-front thought into this but I always knew a venturi would get the job done. At the time I did my panel (a few years ago) the high-tech replacements for these items were MUCH more expensive than they seem to be now. Oh well, time to look for a good "hiding spot" for my venturi ;) Thanks all Andrew ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:57 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" You got it, Frank. The wings are done, and I really didn't want to fool with the leading edge skin. There's enough work to do without redoing what has already been done. I'm even thinking about the header tank again.......AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Isn't it Achem's Razor that says the simplest method is the best solution! And ZAC's is the simplest method. Dave > Not sure what the motivation is to avoid LE tanks Vs. locker tanks. My guess > is that the wings are already buttoned up and the builder does not want to > unzip them. > > What I can tell you is that unzipping the wings is really not that hard...I > did it to mine twice, once bacause the LE tanks became available after I > finished my wings and once to weld one of the tanks that developed a leak. > > Its preety easy to drill the rivet heads without touching the skin > underneath. What is important is to pilot drill them first with a 3/32nd > drill bit then follow through with a 1/8th bit very slowly. > > The head will snap off before the drill bit touches the skin. > > Sounds tricky but you will get pretty quick at doing this after a few. > > The advantage is the LE tanks take up space that can't be used for anything > else...but still leaves the winglockers for baggage. > > Frank > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:07 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" This may be a good option but the cost is high if you do both wings. Maybe a cell in one wing only. Dave > > Dave, > I talked to the people from Eagle Fuel Cells from Eagle River WI, when I > was at Oshkosh last Summer. They say their fuel cells are resistant to > anything used in auto or aviation fuels. They will make any shape fuel cell > you want. I was told that a simple rectangular tank of aproximately10 > gallons cost around $400.00. The more unusual the shape and the more complex > the fittings are will add to the cost. They can also furnish foam like > blocks to fill up the inside of the tank to reduce the chance of sloshing > and explosion in an accident, this will also add to the cost. The Eagle Fuel > Cell people told me that a fuel cell was less likely to be punctured in an > accident and seldom leak although they can be repaired if they should become > punctured. A neat thing about fuel cells is that they can be removed from > the plane through the opening where the filler is. Also the cell must be > completely contained on all sides. > Wayne McIntosh Lafayette IN > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:27 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Actually that reminds me of a weak spot on the Stratus, namely the primer line (if indeed you use the primer port instead of a choke cable) can only be mad of thin walled 1/4" tygon tube. The tube needs to be carefully routed or will rub aginst the cylinder heads and will melt. Its ok if its tied up but I didn't firesleeve it due to the fact that it is downstream of a solenoid that is also on the firewall. I will check to see that I firesleeved the alu tubing though, that's a good point! Frank Don't want to burst your balloon but Aluminum tubing will quickly melt so it doesn't make any difference whether the fuel line burns or melts, it will feed the fire. Fire sleeve any fuel or oil line in front of the firewall. Many fires are started when the exhaust system fails and the hot gasses melt fuel or oil lines, carb bowls, and the like. There is a reason that we need firewalls. FAA even made Bellanca replace an aluminum heater intake and replace with steel. Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > I have to agree, rubber hose on a high pressure oil line would seem a > lot hokey to me. > > For fuel at 5psi I am OK with, providing the flex lines are not in the > cockpit...Metal will not burn through in the case of fire.. > > Frank > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > george.pinneo@ngc.com > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > I don't like rubber hose! I've used aluminum tubing with Swagelok > fittings for oil, fuel, hydraulic & instrument lines. No barbs/no > rubber except for 6" flex-section at Rotax Pierberg fuel pump. No > issues in 470 some hours. > > GGP > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:55 PM PST US From: "David & Maria Lumgair" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" Just for the info of all - The holes in a Savannah kit are not "punched." The whole airframe is CNC machined, and either cut with lazers or high pressure water. Don't know who started that "punched" rumor.. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Duke" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" > > Hi: > > On the issue of punched holes, a friend who took a metal-working class > tells me that the instructor specifically said not to punch aluminum for > aircraft structural parts. His explanation was that (1) punching stresses > the metal in ways that drilling does not and (2) punching may create > micro-cracks that could propagate and these cannot be deburred out on > the front side of the punched hole and (3) the back side of the punched > hole should be deburred for the same reasons as a drilled hole. > > == Gordon Duke > St. Paul, MN USA > 701 rudder > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" > > > Hope I can have some meaningful input into this thread. > I built a 701 over three years (1300+ hours) and then pranged it after just > 56 hours flying. > I didn't want to go through all that building again so I bought a Savannah > ( I call it a Savannoh one) > I have completed all assembly (rivetting etc) after just 132 hours and > should be ready to paint in a few more hours work. How?? > All (99%)the parts are made and accurately. You just assemble. Mostly you > dont even have to deburr because the holes are punched not drilled, just > whack em together and rivet. For example, one wing in a weekend, all slats > in a day, all ailerons in a day, horizontal stab in a day, rear fuse in a > day. > The metal is stamped and looks to come from the same mills as the ZAC parts > and most parts are beautifully cut and finished. > There are some small but nice improvements which 701 scratch builders could > use. (Could they sue if you copied?) and I think it is every bit as strong > if not more so. Mine is legal for 520kg MTOW. > I can't say anything about flying qualities yet as I havent flown but will > let you know when it happens > I havn't grappled with the moral/ ethical question - I just want to fly > sooner than later. > Rick Morawski > morawski@highway1.com.au > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:18 PM PST US From: "Dan knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Great Zodiac XL for sale... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" Hey Grant, What's the story about the "STOL 701 that flew 3/4 of the way around the world"? Why is it parked at your strip? Dan > > And while I'm posting 'Airplane For Sale' ads -- the STOL 701 that flew 3/4 > of the way around the world is still parked at my local airstrip -- a > testament to Canadian Beauracracy gone mad -- and is probably for sale in > case anyone's interested. This a/c was also manufactured in the Czech > Republic and the local Rotax dealer has commented, it's one of the > "best-built aircraft" he's seen. If it's not sold here soon, I suspect > it'll be crated and shipped back to Slovenia. > > Regards, > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:11 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Bummer! Wonder what the resale value is for a pair of gyros....remember the certified guys can't run the cool stuff so Ebay might not be a bad solution...Also the Trutrack and or Dynon will fit in a standard 3 1/8 instrument hole... That Truetrack would be a hot solution...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew SanClemente Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente --> Problem with going without vacuum instruments or substituting a new piece of equipment is that my panel is done and installed, including vacuum driven gyros. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put more up-front thought into this but I always knew a venturi would get the job done. At the time I did my panel (a few years ago) the high-tech replacements for these items were MUCH more expensive than they seem to be now. Oh well, time to look for a good "hiding spot" for my venturi ;) Thanks all Andrew advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:56 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" True, and it will work just fine and the fuel stink would have made my Wife sick...:) Personally I just couldn't put the fuel over my lap (and there has been a case of the straps failing during a forced landing that caused a fire I believe). Honestly thought, putting the LE tanks in will take you about a day and a half if your tempted. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" --> You got it, Frank. The wings are done, and I really didn't want to fool with the leading edge skin. There's enough work to do without redoing what has already been done. I'm even thinking about the header tank again.......AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Isn't it Achem's Razor that says the simplest method is the best solution! And ZAC's is the simplest method. Dave > Not sure what the motivation is to avoid LE tanks Vs. locker tanks. My guess > is that the wings are already buttoned up and the builder does not > want to unzip them. > > What I can tell you is that unzipping the wings is really not that hard...I > did it to mine twice, once bacause the LE tanks became available after > I finished my wings and once to weld one of the tanks that developed a > leak. > > Its preety easy to drill the rivet heads without touching the skin > underneath. What is important is to pilot drill them first with a > 3/32nd drill bit then follow through with a 1/8th bit very slowly. > > The head will snap off before the drill bit touches the skin. > > Sounds tricky but you will get pretty quick at doing this after a few. > > The advantage is the LE tanks take up space that can't be used for anything > else...but still leaves the winglockers for baggage. > > Frank > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:41 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" But my temptations change every day! :{) There shouldn't be any fuel smell in the cockpit if the header tank connections are leak free and the tank properly vented. to the outside. > True, and it will work just fine and the fuel stink would have made my Wife > sick...:) > > Personally I just couldn't put the fuel over my lap (and there has been a > case of the straps failing during a forced landing that caused a fire I > believe). > > Honestly thought, putting the LE tanks in will take you about a day and a > half if your tempted. > > Frank > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:52 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Frank, A day's work for you is probably likely to be 10 days work for me......for each wing! > [Original Message] > From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Date: 3/31/2004 2:10:50 PM > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > True, and it will work just fine and the fuel stink would have made my Wife > sick...:) > > Personally I just couldn't put the fuel over my lap (and there has been a > case of the straps failing during a forced landing that caused a fire I > believe). > > Honestly thought, putting the LE tanks in will take you about a day and a > half if your tempted. > > Frank > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > --> > > You got it, Frank. The wings are done, and I really didn't want to fool with > the leading edge skin. There's enough work to do without redoing what has > already been done. I'm even thinking about the header tank > again.......AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Isn't it Achem's Razor that says > the simplest method is the best solution! And ZAC's is the simplest method. > > Dave > > > > Not sure what the motivation is to avoid LE tanks Vs. locker tanks. My > guess > > is that the wings are already buttoned up and the builder does not > > want to unzip them. > > > > What I can tell you is that unzipping the wings is really not that > hard...I > > did it to mine twice, once bacause the LE tanks became available after > > I finished my wings and once to weld one of the tanks that developed a > > leak. > > > > Its preety easy to drill the rivet heads without touching the skin > > underneath. What is important is to pilot drill them first with a > > 3/32nd drill bit then follow through with a 1/8th bit very slowly. > > > > The head will snap off before the drill bit touches the skin. > > > > Sounds tricky but you will get pretty quick at doing this after a few. > > > > The advantage is the LE tanks take up space that can't be used for > anything > > else...but still leaves the winglockers for baggage. > > > > Frank > > > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:19 PM PST US From: "Chris Weber" Subject: Zenith-List: Plastic-protection --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Weber" Hello Listers, I am currently building a 601 HD from scratch, it is the second scratch built Zodie I have tackled so far. With the first one I had spent agonizing hours trying to pull, peel and force the plastic protection layer of the new sheets, and then later on spent days priming and painting. I am able to learn, and this time I am very carefull in handling the sheets, and simply keep the plastic on. It is durable as anything, and I found a very tough white packing tape that will cover joints neatly, sticks like buggery. I don't have to prime the joints either, as the plastic keeps the metal from touching. Only disadvantage is the colour, you can get any, as long as it is white. Guess a few taped on blue cheat lines will do the trick. Building is so much easier this way, thought I'd let you guys know! Cheers, Chris 50% done on the plastic fantastic ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:50 PM PST US From: "Robert Schoenberger" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" Andrew . . . I'm nostalgic, and I think venturi tubes are funky neat on a plane like the 701. I'm also going to strut mount a pitot tube on my 701. If I was building a "speedster" like a 601, then I would go streamline. The old stuff is part of low and slow in my opinion. Robert Schoenberger Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew SanClemente" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente > > Problem with going without vacuum instruments or substituting a new > piece of equipment is that my panel is done and installed, including > vacuum driven gyros. > Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put more up-front thought into > this but I always knew a venturi would get the job done. At the time > I did my panel (a few years ago) the high-tech replacements for these > items were MUCH more expensive than they seem to be now. Oh well, > time to look for a good "hiding spot" for my venturi ;) > Thanks all > Andrew > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:27 PM PST US From: Stanley Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: Stanley Challgren Andrew: We got our vacuum system kit from Rocky Mountain Propellors (Eire, Colorado 303-665-7905) for $673 in July 2000. It is a RAVAC-K2 and has worked great since first flight. While installation was difficult because of the 15 gallon header tank, it is possible to install. Given the other options now, I'd go all electric and EFIS. Stan 601 HDS On Mar 31, 2004, at 9:35 AM, Andrew SanClemente wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente > > > I have searched the archives regarding vacuum systems and see that > most have either gone with an electric panel or use a venturi. > Has anyone out there used a vacuum pump and if so can you let me in > on the details of what you used? > I may still use a venturi but I would really like my gyro's spooled > up from the get-go. > Thanks > Andrew (601 HDS / Stratus EA-81) > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:19 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" I think the razor was Occam's. George Swinford do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > You got it, Frank. The wings are done, and I really didn't want to fool > with the leading edge skin. There's enough work to do without redoing what > has already been done. I'm even thinking about the header tank > again.......AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Isn't it Achem's Razor that > says the simplest method is the best solution! And ZAC's is the simplest > method. > > Dave > > > > Not sure what the motivation is to avoid LE tanks Vs. locker tanks. My > guess > > is that the wings are already buttoned up and the builder does not want to > > unzip them. > > > > What I can tell you is that unzipping the wings is really not that > hard...I > > did it to mine twice, once bacause the LE tanks became available after I > > finished my wings and once to weld one of the tanks that developed a leak. > > > > Its preety easy to drill the rivet heads without touching the skin > > underneath. What is important is to pilot drill them first with a 3/32nd > > drill bit then follow through with a 1/8th bit very slowly. > > > > The head will snap off before the drill bit touches the skin. > > > > Sounds tricky but you will get pretty quick at doing this after a few. > > > > The advantage is the LE tanks take up space that can't be used for > anything > > else...but still leaves the winglockers for baggage. > > > > Frank > > > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:44 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Uh huh....sure...:)...Wait till the first time you spill some on top of the fuse. That's like when I promised my Wife there would be no dust when I sanded the drywall in our house 'cos we would make sure everything was covered up...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" --> But my temptations change every day! :{) There shouldn't be any fuel smell in the cockpit if the header tank connections are leak free and the tank properly vented. to the outside. > True, and it will work just fine and the fuel stink would have made my Wife > sick...:) > > Personally I just couldn't put the fuel over my lap (and there has > been a case of the straps failing during a forced landing that caused > a fire I believe). > > Honestly thought, putting the LE tanks in will take you about a day > and a half if your tempted. > > Frank > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:08 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" I think you can get an electric powered vacuum pump too...Do know anything about them, you also have a pretty good output from the Stratus Alternator too. Frank > Problem with going without vacuum instruments or substituting a new > piece of equipment is that my panel is done and installed, including > vacuum driven gyros. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have put more > up-front thought into this but I always knew a venturi would get the > job done. At the time I did my panel (a few years ago) the high-tech > replacements for these items were MUCH more expensive than they seem > to be now. Oh well, time to look for a good "hiding spot" for my > venturi ;) Thanks all > Andrew > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:08 PM PST US From: "Gordon Duke" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" I disagree. I am certain that the plans are copyrighted. There are probably no patents. However, you cannot build more than one airplane from a set of plans without violating the contract, the law and ethics. So, a manufacturing company cannot (in my opinion) obtain a copy of the plans for a CH701 and manufacture more than one completed plane or one kit. The issue in my mind is how many parts are identical in the two planes. If the answer is zero, then the Savannah is a legitimate plane. Can someone give me the answer as to how many of the parts of the two planes are interchangeable? Thanks. == Gordon Duke St. Paul, MN USA 701 rudder --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" >I guess it doesn't really matter, because I don't remember seeing any >copyright or design patents by Zenith. So it's open season, and Zenith or >anyone else doesn't have a right to bitch. I looked at the Savannah very >hard before I bought my 701 kit. There are some significant differences, ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:42 PM PST US From: "Ron DeWees" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron DeWees" Hi Andrew, I can't give you any reports on how the system will work in the air but I inherited the parts for a conventional vacuum system with my project and have incorporated it into my panel. The Jab 3300 will directly drive a conventional dry vacuum pump and Tony B's book gives good directions on how to plumb the system. I have only turned the system over with the starter but the A I starts to erect with only a few RPM so I don't expect any problems. I don't expect any IFR in the Zenair but like seeing the horizon and DG in front of me. I have a Mooney with full IFR and it's more like I'm used to to have a gyro panel. I might consider the electronic gyro if I didn't have vacuum already. There is something to say for non-electric gauges, tho. The Anywhere Map map system using a PDA has an optional electonic gyro that will display on the map. Not quite as nice as HUD, but combines a lot of info in one screen. Good luck Ron D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew SanClemente" Subject: Zenith-List: Vacuum Pump > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente > > I have searched the archives regarding vacuum systems and see that > most have either gone with an electric panel or use a venturi. > Has anyone out there used a vacuum pump and if so can you let me in > on the details of what you used? > I may still use a venturi but I would really like my gyro's spooled > up from the get-go. > Thanks > Andrew (601 HDS / Stratus EA-81) > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 3/30/04 2:45 AM, Peter Franke at adsl4749@tpg.com.au wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Franke" > > Dave, give this experiment a try > > Get two drinking glasses and two straws. Fill one glass up with water (or > any other beveridge), and only slightly fill the other glass. Put a straw > into each glass and start sucking. You'll see what happens when one glass > empties. > > Cheers, > Peter > You don't suck fuel out the top of a fuel tank, it flows out the bottom under its own weight to the tee at the gascolator. The only time you would have a problem is if the empty tank has enough air pressure in it to push the fuel from the other tank away from the tee. This is more likely to happen with low wings than with high wings because of the lower head pressure in the low wing case. A fuel pump at the outlet of each tank would most likely prevent this problem. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Panel and engine installed. Nearly done. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:17 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Ya, but you cannot prevent dust when sanding drywall no matter what you do. But you can be careful when refueling so you don't spill any.....and carry a cockpit air freshener! LOL Dave > > Uh huh....sure...:)...Wait till the first time you spill some on top of the > fuse. > > That's like when I promised my Wife there would be no dust when I sanded the > drywall in our house 'cos we would make sure everything was covered up...:) > > Frank > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:29 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Right > > I think the razor was Occam's. > > George Swinford > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hoses & Pumps From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > What I find VERY important in ZAC's airplanes is that they all have > this things in common: Very simple airplane with KIS in capital > letters, very strong, very light, easy to build (even that someones > of us get lost in this simplicity:-) Gary, I certainly agree with that in concept, and in fact, it was the sole reason why I elected to stay with the hose/barbed fittings for the fuel system, and my facet pump being mounted as per the plans (aka sucking some fuel) parallel to the engine driven pump. I figured Chris Heintz knows a hell of a lot more about building an airplane than I do. BUT, then you read the Bingelis books, and he advises not even to consider barbed fittings (same advice given by the Corvair expert William Wynne). So, where does a dummy like me go to get the right advice? Even those on this list (whose credentials I don't know, but seem to know a heck of a lot more than me!) are divided on these important issues. So in the end, my plane will have the simplicity of ZAC's design, and hopefully there won't be any I-told-you-so'd later! I know that in all the cars I've ever owned, I've never had a fuel hose blow out on me. And if the clamp starts to dig into the hose over the barbed fitting, I should be able to see traces of slight leakage before it becomes a major problem. Or at least that's what I'm hoping. Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:14 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hoses & Pumps --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Then I'd love to know why Rotax has barbed hose fittings on its fuel pump. Unless you remove the pump from the engine, you will have barbed hoses on inlet and outlet. The carbs are also barbed fittings! The certified engine has the same layout, I think. I my experience, just because it's "aviation" certified or FAA approved doesn't mean a product is fail safe. Dave > > What I find VERY important in ZAC's airplanes is that they all have > > this things in common: Very simple airplane with KIS in capital > > letters, very strong, very light, easy to build (even that someones > > of us get lost in this simplicity:-) > > Gary, I certainly agree with that in concept, and in fact, it was the > sole reason why I elected to stay with the hose/barbed fittings for the > fuel system, and my facet pump being mounted as per the plans (aka > sucking some fuel) parallel to the engine driven pump. I figured Chris > Heintz knows a hell of a lot more about building an airplane than I do. > > BUT, then you read the Bingelis books, and he advises not even to > consider barbed fittings (same advice given by the Corvair expert William > Wynne). So, where does a dummy like me go to get the right advice? Even > those on this list (whose credentials I don't know, but seem to know a > heck of a lot more than me!) are divided on these important issues. > > So in the end, my plane will have the simplicity of ZAC's design, and > hopefully there won't be any I-told-you-so'd later! I know that in all > the cars I've ever owned, I've never had a fuel hose blow out on me. And > if the clamp starts to dig into the hose over the barbed fitting, I > should be able to see traces of slight leakage before it becomes a major > problem. Or at least that's what I'm hoping. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > > ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:02 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Frank, What will you do if you lose both wing fuel pumps, and you don't have an engine pump as a backup? Don't you think the trees will be getting bigger and bigger? > No! it's far better to be deposited (fuel) all around you...or if it's in a > compromised wing tank with a collapsed gear running into the cockpit through > the lightening holes. Face it, if you crash your going to die because the G > loads are going to get you. If you land, you may bend your plane but > survive. > > And no thanks on dumping the fuel pump, I'll keep my engine driven fuel pump > attached right where rotax designed it to be. > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:14 PM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Gordon: All of the holes on the ZAC rib lightening holes are punched and flanged at the same time with a very smart tool. The workers at the ZAC factory let me punch/flange few holes for fun while I was there for my rudder-building workshop. If you have purchased a kit from ZAC, you wil have MANY punched holes in your airplane. If you are talking about small, punched holes where rivets go, I can't imagine why they would do this on kit parts. Since they are most certainly done in batches with several sheets piled up, punching would not work very well. http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:54 PM PST US From: ALEMBIC7@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel Bladders --> Zenith-List message posted by: ALEMBIC7@aol.com Occam's ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:40 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Well that requires two independent failures which I do not plan for in any of my critical systems...Think about it, you have two independent ignition systems...not three, correct? The reason the pumps are independent is they have two different sources of fuel (one per each tank) and they are driven by two independent batteries...Both charged by the same alternator but seperated by a diode. I make sure there are no potential interconnecting points between the two electrical systems such as any changeover switches...evertyhing has its own on/off switch About the only thing that can go wrong as far as I can see is if the alternator voltage regulator goes whacko and over volts everything....couldn't find good solution for that one. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Pepper Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" --> Frank, What will you do if you lose both wing fuel pumps, and you don't have an engine pump as a backup? Don't you think the trees will be getting bigger and bigger? ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:21 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Plastic-protection --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Let me get this right. You are placing plastic tape in between the metal pieces that you are riveting together? My gut feeling is this will destroy the strength of the riveted joint. I would make a phone call to ZAC for approval if this is what you are doing. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Weber" Subject: Zenith-List: Plastic-protection > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Weber" > > Hello Listers, > > I am currently building a 601 HD from scratch, it is the second scratch > built Zodie I have tackled so far. With the first one I had spent agonizing > hours trying to pull, peel and force the plastic protection layer of the new > sheets, and then later on spent days priming and painting. I am able to > learn, and this time I am very carefull in handling the sheets, and simply > keep the plastic on. It is durable as anything, and I found a very tough > white packing tape that will cover joints neatly, sticks like buggery. I > don't have to prime the joints either, as the plastic keeps the metal from > touching. > Only disadvantage is the colour, you can get any, as long as it is white. > Guess a few taped on blue cheat lines will do the trick. > Building is so much easier this way, thought I'd let you guys know! > > Cheers, Chris > 50% done on the plastic fantastic > > ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:42 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hoses & Pumps --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower --- wizard-24@juno.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > What I find VERY important in ZAC's airplanes is that they all have > > this things in common: Very simple airplane with KIS in capital > > letters, very strong, very light, easy to build (even that someones > > > of us get lost in this simplicity:-) > > Gary, I certainly agree with that in concept, and in fact, it was the > sole reason why I elected to stay with the hose/barbed fittings for > the > fuel system, and my facet pump being mounted as per the plans (aka > sucking some fuel) parallel to the engine driven pump. I figured > Chris > Heintz knows a hell of a lot more about building an airplane than I > do. > > BUT, then you read the Bingelis books, and he advises not even to > consider barbed fittings (same advice given by the Corvair expert > William > Wynne). So, where does a dummy like me go to get the right advice? > Even > those on this list (whose credentials I don't know, but seem to know > a > heck of a lot more than me!) are divided on these important issues. > > So in the end, my plane will have the simplicity of ZAC's design, and > hopefully there won't be any I-told-you-so'd later! I know that in > all > the cars I've ever owned, I've never had a fuel hose blow out on me. > And > if the clamp starts to dig into the hose over the barbed fitting, I > should be able to see traces of slight leakage before it becomes a > major > problem. Or at least that's what I'm hoping. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > Mike, I advise to change the hoses and clamps every year or two... In our Club, we have several Ultralights (FAI stds) and a few homebuilts, about 40 planes in total, 30 members closed membership. Most of the planes have rather simple fuel systems with easy reach and mantainance, we always use the hoses type advised by the manufactures. One of the "clubs particular" rules included in our yearly "full check out" of our planes; is to change all the fuel hoses and clamps (no more than every 2 years), most of us change them every year. The cost of this "peace of mind" is only two or 3 yards of hose, about 10 new clamps and a few nylon ty wraps (sp?) (nylon straps), we all help each other. Also the Clubs Safety Commite (with I am part), "signs off" the planes. We look at each other as family, we all have kids... so we take care of all of us. Saludos Gary Gower __________________________________ http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:02 PM PST US From: "The Meiste's" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: barbed hose fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" > I don't like rubber hose! I've used aluminum tubing with Swagelok fittings for oil, fuel, hydraulic & instrument lines. No barbs/no rubber except for 6" flex-section at Rotax Pierberg fuel pump. No issues in 470 some hours. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Must be what one get accustom to ...... as I flew my first plane (ultra light) with nothing BUT rubber hoses, barbs, and clamps for almost 300 hours without a lick of trouble. And that darn plane would shake the fillings out of your teeth with it's 2 stroke engine. I figured if it can take that abuse it's good enough for my 601 (now with 80 hours on the clock). And the only dip of fuel I've ever seen was from my leaking 16 gal header tank, but that's another story! Kelly 601 HD Stratus ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:31 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: Corvair --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker > I'll give it a try. Hows the Corvair running and > what are your thoughts on > it. This is the one i'm leaning towards Dave, The corvair has a broken valve and a melted piston, but what do you expect for $100! -Joking aside, I just recently picked up a core and misc heads and parts. I think Mike is getting pretty close to flying w/corvair. I am still way out from flying. I have been looking into power plants for 4 years, and finally decided on corvair. Check these out if you haven't already: www.flycorvair.com www.Corvaircraft.com Corvaircraft.com has a corvair e-mail list similar to this one. Their members are even crotchetier and more stubborn than here - which is to say that they know everything and can answer anything. flycorvair.com is William Wynn's site. He is recognized as the "Corvair Authority" and his conversion manual ($59 avail on his website) is the bible for us mere mortals to build from. He is very close to flying a 601xl with corvair power (within a couple of weeks), and offers motor mounts specifically for the Zodie as well as an amazing looking nose bowl for the cowling. This is probably old news to most of the list, but maybe useful to a newcomer. Respectfully, Brandon Tucker __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:10 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com Frank How about the "Crowbar" O.V . protection mentioned in the Aeroelectric Connection? Also where would one place checkvalves to supplement the ones on the Facet Pumps? Intake or the outlet side? At the pump? Joe Motis 601 XL working on wings ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:25 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks (bad luck?) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower Dave..., I think first our wife will keep us home working on mantainance or a new volcano below our fight path will make explosion, this will be bad luck :-) :-) :-) Then aviation engines will require 3 magnetos (4 will be better, one as back up of each magneto)... I am sure each pump has his own fuse and switch, and is tested every preflight, so if one fails I am sure nobody will dare to fly the plane until it is changed. One pump working (if one pump fails in flight) will take you safetly to the next alternate airstip in your map or GPS... Never wait until the tank is completly empty to change tanks... Saludos Gary Gower. PLEASE Do not archive. --- Dave Pepper wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > > Frank, > > What will you do if you lose both wing fuel pumps, and you don't have > an > engine pump as a backup? Don't you think the trees will be getting > bigger > and bigger? > > > > No! it's far better to be deposited (fuel) all around you...or if > it's in > a > > compromised wing tank with a collapsed gear running into the > cockpit > through > > the lightening holes. Face it, if you crash your going to die > because > the G > > loads are going to get you. If you land, you may bend your plane > but > > survive. > > > > And no thanks on dumping the fuel pump, I'll keep my engine driven > fuel > pump > > attached right where rotax designed it to be. > > Do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hoses & Pumps From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > I advise to change the hoses and clamps every year or two... That's good advice, and one I plan to implement every couple or few years. Problem is a few of those lines will be really difficult to replace without tearing the wings apart, such as the lines running to the outboard auxiliary tanks (those lines run through a sleeve welded to the inside if the inboard tanks, and are a tight fit). Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:01 PM PST US From: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Dead Horse --> Zenith-List message posted by: ZSMITH3rd@aol.com The fuel tank, vapor lock, selector valve horse has been badly mauled. Beaten to death is more correct. However, is there anyone on the list who has built and flown a 701 with only the firewall-mounted "header tank" as in the earlier plans BEFORE the wing tanks became either standard or an option? Reason for the question is that the bottom of the tank, and therefore the gascolator, is below the bottom of the engine. This arrangement would then depend on the Rotax engine-mounted fuel pump being able to suck fuel uphill. This is the method ZAC shows on plans up to about 2001. Comments solicited. Thanks, Zed Smith/801/R912/92.xxx% do not archive ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:43 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" One alternator and one voltage regulator? and no engine pump or gravity feed system! Trees! Even airliners have have total electrical failures, but engines keep running because they suck fuel from the tanks. A total electrical failure is not beyond the realm of possibilities. Dave > > Well that requires two independent failures which I do not plan for in any > of my critical systems...Think about it, you have two independent ignition > systems...not three, correct? > > The reason the pumps are independent is they have two different sources of > fuel (one per each tank) and they are driven by two independent > batteries...Both charged by the same alternator but seperated by a diode. > > I make sure there are no potential interconnecting points between the two > electrical systems such as any changeover switches...evertyhing has its own > on/off switch > > About the only thing that can go wrong as far as I can see is if the > alternator voltage regulator goes whacko and over volts > everything....couldn't find good solution for that one. > > Frank > > ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:34 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks (bad luck?) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Gary, Think total electrical system failure. And think that if one pump can fail, then so can the other one.....and it always happens in flight. > > I think first our wife will keep us home working on mantainance or a > new volcano below our fight path will make explosion, this will be bad > luck :-) :-) :-) > > Then aviation engines will require 3 magnetos (4 will be better, one as > back up of each magneto)... > > I am sure each pump has his own fuse and switch, and is tested every > preflight, so if one fails I am sure nobody will dare to fly the plane > until it is changed. > One pump working (if one pump fails in flight) will take you safetly to > the next alternate airstip in your map or GPS... Never wait until the > tank is completly empty to change tanks... > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > PLEASE Do not archive. > > > --- Dave Pepper wrote: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > > > > > Frank, > > > > What will you do if you lose both wing fuel pumps, and you don't have > > an > > engine pump as a backup? Don't you think the trees will be getting > > bigger > > and bigger? > > > > > > > No! it's far better to be deposited (fuel) all around you...or if > > it's in > > a > > > compromised wing tank with a collapsed gear running into the > > cockpit > > through > > > the lightening holes. Face it, if you crash your going to die > > because > > the G > > > loads are going to get you. If you land, you may bend your plane > > but > > > survive. > > > > > > And no thanks on dumping the fuel pump, I'll keep my engine driven > > fuel > > pump > > > attached right where rotax designed it to be. > > > Do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > > ________________________________ Message 77 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:16 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" You are correct, the plans are copyrighted. Which means you can't copy the plans without their permission. Has nothing to do with how many times or what you can use them for. I bought the plans with the rights to use them as I please except to copy or republish without ZAC's permission. I don't remember any contract stipulating the number of times I could use the plans. I have no idea how many parts are interchangeable. With the pegastol wings, there are none that I know of. I looked at the Savanna real hard and there are a lot of differences/improvements, so I really doubt too many parts are interchangeable. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Duke" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" > > I disagree. I am certain that the plans are copyrighted. There are > probably no patents. However, you cannot build more than one airplane > from a set of plans without violating the contract, the law and ethics. > So, a manufacturing company cannot (in my opinion) obtain a copy of > the plans for a CH701 and manufacture more than one completed plane or > one kit. > > The issue in my mind is how many parts are identical in the two planes. > If the answer is zero, then the Savannah is a legitimate plane. > > Can someone give me the answer as to how many of the parts of the > two planes are interchangeable? Thanks. > > == Gordon Duke > St. Paul, MN USA > 701 rudder > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" > > >I guess it doesn't really matter, because I don't remember seeing any > >copyright or design patents by Zenith. So it's open season, and Zenith or > >anyone else doesn't have a right to bitch. I looked at the Savannah very > >hard before I bought my 701 kit. There are some significant differences, > > --- ________________________________ Message 78 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:16 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Tom, would you please enlighten us as to which opinion is correct, then we can move on. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" > > Seems like the sum total of all this is a good short article in Sport Pilot. > > Fuel starvation is a major problem with homebuilts and when the smoke > clears the answers and not too complex. But boy there are lots of "opinions" > that are not correct. Seems like lots of people "hear" someting and accept > it as fact without enough personal thought and evaluation. > > Tom > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cy Galley" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > The conversation has me convinced. IF you are pumping from 2 sources and > > one goes dry you will pump air. BUT if you have a pump pumping from a > single > > source then you are go to go until you pump it dry. If you have two tanks > > and use two pumps then you are good to go. One pump, two tanks and you > have > > a problem. > > > > > > --- ________________________________ Message 79 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:11 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" It is UHMW, This means Ultra High Molecular Weight, and it is polyethelyne. Mc Master-Carr in Chicago has it. Tom Marson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Corriveau" Subject: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > > Hi all, > > Been 'lurking' the digest version for a while -- not much to say > (surprise!)... > > However the imminent threat of summer has me thinking flying again. I found > and fixed the problem with my CAM100 ignition -- finally -- now if the > engine still runs, I'm in business (it was a magnet with a 'burr' that was > touching the face of the Hall Effect sensors when the gap became small due > to engine heating)... > > Now I've found that my nose gear bearings (and others?) have worn very > quickly and I want to make some plastic bearings from that nice white > plastic stuff -- UHMEP..Z?..X?? You know what I'm talking about - right? > Does someone remember offhand how big and thick a slice is needed to do all > the top and lower gear strut bearings? And a good source? Or can you at > least remind me of the proper name for this stuff so I can search the > archives...? > > BTW - I think my bearings may be wearing so fast because of the industrial > chrome finish on the struts -- is this possible? Does this finish have a > rougher texture against the aluminum than the original steel leg? If that's > not the reason, then I'm stumped. Tony Colucci operates from the same > field, and his bearings with the original steel legs are lasting longer than > this... > > Thanks, > -- > Grant Corriveau > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > ________________________________ Message 80 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:41 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Dont know if Vans RVs are punched or drilled but they are "preholed". Thousands of Kits. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Duke" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon Duke" > > Hi: > > On the issue of punched holes, a friend who took a metal-working class > tells me that the instructor specifically said not to punch aluminum for > aircraft structural parts. His explanation was that (1) punching stresses > the metal in ways that drilling does not and (2) punching may create > micro-cracks that could propagate and these cannot be deburred out on > the front side of the punched hole and (3) the back side of the punched > hole should be deburred for the same reasons as a drilled hole. > > == Gordon Duke > St. Paul, MN USA > 701 rudder > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Rick Morawski" > > > Hope I can have some meaningful input into this thread. > I built a 701 over three years (1300+ hours) and then pranged it after just > 56 hours flying. > I didn't want to go through all that building again so I bought a Savannah > ( I call it a Savannoh one) > I have completed all assembly (rivetting etc) after just 132 hours and > should be ready to paint in a few more hours work. How?? > All (99%)the parts are made and accurately. You just assemble. Mostly you > dont even have to deburr because the holes are punched not drilled, just > whack em together and rivet. For example, one wing in a weekend, all slats > in a day, all ailerons in a day, horizontal stab in a day, rear fuse in a > day. > The metal is stamped and looks to come from the same mills as the ZAC parts > and most parts are beautifully cut and finished. > There are some small but nice improvements which 701 scratch builders could > use. (Could they sue if you copied?) and I think it is every bit as strong > if not more so. Mine is legal for 520kg MTOW. > I can't say anything about flying qualities yet as I havent flown but will > let you know when it happens > I havn't grappled with the moral/ ethical question - I just want to fly > sooner than later. > Rick Morawski > morawski@highway1.com.au > > ________________________________ Message 81 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:00 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Vapor forming between the final pump and the carb would just move up the Carb bowl and percolate out. No Problem there. A hot line between the tank and the pump is the source of potiential vapor lock. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > Yep, there is a section like that, and the electric pump sucks fuel > downstream of the gascolator in the engine compartment. But where would > vapour form in this system upstream from the elec pump? And if it did form, > wouldn't it move upward to the tank? > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas F Marson" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" > > > > > Probably is eliminated ---- but not if you have a section of fuel line > > between the header tank and the electric pump AND IF THAT LINE IS EXPOSED > TO > > HOT ENGINE COMPARTMENT TEMPS. Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bob Miller" > > To: > > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Physics of Vapour lock > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" > > > > > > > > Frank, > > > Thanks for bringing us back to the elementals. I have a 16 gallon > header > > > tank only, with an electric fuel pump parallel to the mechanical pump. > > > Since the electric pump is below the header tank, does this mean that > > vapour > > > lock is eliminated or overcome when this pump is on? > > > Bob > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 82 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:36 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Hi Grant There are a couple suitable pieces on Ebay right now with the bonus that the sellers actually know how to send it to Canada. Jim Pollard ________________________________ Message 83 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:55 PM PST US From: Bill Cardell Subject: Zenith-List: skydat --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell Has anybody tried this yet?: http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html ________________________________ Message 84 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:33 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Plastic-protection --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Chris, From what you just said I understand that you final rivet pieces of alumimnum together with the protective plastic still inplace between the two pieces. Is that correct? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Weber" Subject: Zenith-List: Plastic-protection > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Weber" > > Hello Listers, > > I am currently building a 601 HD from scratch, it is the second scratch > built Zodie I have tackled so far. With the first one I had spent agonizing > hours trying to pull, peel and force the plastic protection layer of the new > sheets, and then later on spent days priming and painting. I am able to > learn, and this time I am very carefull in handling the sheets, and simply > keep the plastic on. It is durable as anything, and I found a very tough > white packing tape that will cover joints neatly, sticks like buggery. I > don't have to prime the joints either, as the plastic keeps the metal from > touching. > Only disadvantage is the colour, you can get any, as long as it is white. > Guess a few taped on blue cheat lines will do the trick. > Building is so much easier this way, thought I'd let you guys know! > > Cheers, Chris > 50% done on the plastic fantastic > > ________________________________ Message 85 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:33 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" I have run some wear tests between UHMW and Delrin. Delrin wore much faster. If some one wants a picure of the aluminum tube spun in the different bearings let me know. I will email it --- dont think this list will accept Digital pics. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > Grant, > What you're looking for is Ultra-high Molecular Weight Polyethylene > (UHMW) The stuff I used was a Delrin product. Could have used Nylon 6/6, > but > that's what I had. A good source for these is McMaster - Carr Supply Co > PO Box 4355, Chicago, IL 60680-4355. Their catalog is on the internet. > They sell sheets 12" x 24" x 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", etc. About $30. then, > for > the 1/2", what I used and I turned the hole in a square and tapered the > outside the > hole down to a flange about 5/16" thick. Really nice people to deal with. > Extremely prompt on delivery. > > Sales Desk 1-630-833-0300 > > > Subject: Zenith-List: UMHE...pztzle....gurble...plastic stuff? > > > Now I've found that my nose gear bearings (and others?) have worn very > > quickly and I want to make some plastic bearings from that nice white > > plastic stuff -- UHMEP..Z?..X?? You know what I'm talking about - right? > > Does someone remember offhand how big and thick a slice is needed to do > all > > the top and lower gear strut bearings? And a good source? > Thanks, > > -- > > Grant Corriveau > > C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 > > ________________________________ Message 86 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:36 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: skydat --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Bill, No but I am installing the E2 EMS as an engine monitor. I may go for a few "smart singles" , including the attitude and and compass. MGL's instruments are small, and fit a 601 panel very well. Dave > > > Has anybody tried this yet?: > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html > > ________________________________ Message 87 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:36 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Zenith-List: Hose clamps --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Clamped hoses are funny things. Sometimes they seem to loosen up by themselves and start leaking, other times they ares on so good you cant get them off without splitting the hose end with your knife. There are 2 kinds of clamps that I know of that keep a spring like clamping force on the hose so as the fittings expand and contract with heat, the clamping force stays the same. One kind is called Oetiker clamps they are a bit of a pain to install because you need a special pincher. It looks a bit like a pair of side cutters. It is basically a band with ears on one or both sides that are pinched. You can see these often on acetylene hoses. To remove them they have to be cut off. There are also worm or jubilee style clamps that have a spring under the head of the worm screw. Known as a constant torque clamp some places.. Some have a regular looking spiral spring and some have what look like Belleville washers.You tighten these until the spring is mostly compressed and it keeps the same amount of tension on the hose even if the hose starts to extrude some over time. The only place I have seen these are on large equipment on the air intake hoses. I think they are getting popular with silicon type hoses for coolant also. The only place I have seen these in a small fuel line size is in the Del city on line catalog at https://www.delcity.net They also have lots of electrical stuff. Use clamps in the search box. Jim Pollard ________________________________ Message 88 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:24 PM PST US From: morawski@highway1.com.au Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Savannah vs CH701 -- punched holes --> Zenith-List message posted by: morawski@highway1.com.au I said the holes were punched because a few of the holes in my kit still retained the "plug" part and it was too close fitting for laser, maybe I'm wrong there Rick Morawski Quoting David & Maria Lumgair : > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David & Maria Lumgair" > > Just for the info of all - The holes in a Savannah kit are not "punched." > The whole airframe is CNC machined, and either cut with lazers or high > pressure water. Don't know who started that "punched" rumor.. Dave > > > ________________________________ Message 89 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Hoses & Pumps From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 3/31/04 8:58 PM, wizard-24@juno.com at wizard-24@juno.com wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > >> I advise to change the hoses and clamps every year or two... The only problem with rubber fuel lines is that they do have to be replaced every so often. Replacing the fuel lines between the tanks and the fuselage would require removing the wings and working through the lightening holes in the nose ribs. I decided to use aluminum lines in this location. If installed correctly, they should last many years with no trouble. I used the rubber lines for the rest of the system where they are easier to replace. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Panel and engine installed. Nearly done. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 90 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 3/31/04 8:00 PM, HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) at frank.hinde@hp.com wrote: > About the only thing that can go wrong as far as I can see is if the > alternator voltage regulator goes whacko and over volts > everything....couldn't find good solution for that one. > > Frank > http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 Overvoltage protection. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Panel and engine installed. Nearly done. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 91 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel tanks From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 3/31/04 10:01 PM, Dave Pepper at rockinrimranch@earthlink.net wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" > > > One alternator and one voltage regulator? and no engine pump or gravity > feed system! Trees! Even airliners have have total electrical failures, but > engines keep running because they suck fuel from the tanks. A total > electrical failure is not beyond the realm of possibilities. > > Dave > > I've see a whole lot more mechanical fuel pump failures than total electrical failures. Besides, if my plane has a total electrical failure, a mechanical fuel pump won't do any good, my ignition systems won't function. The typical electrical failure involves alternator or regulator failure, then you have an hour or two to find an airport before you run out of battery life. The only times I've ever heard of total electrical failures in airliners is when they've run out of fuel and can't run any of their engine driven generators, another case where engine driven fuel pumps are useless. The main thing is to be aware of the risks and to plan your flight accordingly. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Airframe construction complete. Panel and engine installed. Nearly done. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 92 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:24 PM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Sorry, it is not either/or there are several subjects that have been beat to death. Such as: 1. Use a fuel selector valve when using two wing tanks? 1a. How about using two fuel pumps and a selector valve also. (dont see a reason for the selector valve). Switching pumps will control fuel flow. 2. Use an electric pump directly at the output of each wing tank and push the fuel toward the engine (good idea) 2a. Why not use elect pumps at each tank controlling fuel flow by turning one or the other off/on. (good idea). 2b. What if one tank is pumped dry, will that pump air into the suction line of the engine driven pump. If you are pumping from both tanks the first to run dry it is not likely to pump air. In addition the other will continue to pump fuel with a pressure of between 4 and 8 lbs depending on the specific pump. This will keep a solid supply of fuel at the inlet of the engine driven pump and at that same pressure. 3. Dont use electric tank pumps, instead use a fuel selector valve to control the flow and suck the fuel all the way forward with the engine driven pump? 3a. Can work but can be subject to vapor lock if the engine compartment gets real hot. Then suction can create vapor at the input to the fuel pump. Vapor at the inlet and the pump will stop pumping fuel. 3b If you use this method don't have a BOTH position on the valve or the first tank to run dry will cause the engine pump to stop pumping if the Both position is selected. 4. Will either of these two options be more or less likely to contribute to vapor lock (yes one will, sucking the fuel) with the engine driven pump and haveing no tank pumps pushing. 5. Is vapor lock even a problem (yes it can be) For example heat soaking an engine and within a short time a takeoff is attempted, Or long wait to take off with the engine idling on a hot day. 6 What causes it? ( hot fuel and reduced pressure on it in the line feeding the fuel pump) When fuel flashes to vapor the pump will stop pumping.. In the above example it is probably not the fuel in the tanks that is hot but the fuel in the engine compartment that is flowing very slowly or not at all that is getting hot. 6a. Is there a solution in this case? Several things help, use 100LL not auto fuel,. Keep the engine compartment cool, when parking after a flight make sure the engine compartment is ventilated to let the heat out, if you intend to takeoff again soon. Install a bleed line at the pump output side back to the fuel tank, cover the fuel lines, direct a blast tube with fresh air onto the gascolater-lines. etc. The bleed line on the pump outlet will port some fuel back and keep a flow of cooler tank fuel flowing into the engine compartment. This not only keep the fuel in the engine compartment cooler it provides some cooling to the fuel pump itself. 7. Will a bleed line from the output of the engine driven fuel pump back to the fuel tank resolve the vapor lock problem?" (answer yes it really helps) but there are other measures too. Some mentioned above 8. Will putting fire sleeve on lines in the engine compartment help eliminate Vapor lock, ( yes, to extent that they assist in keeping fuel cool). Good idea anyway as insurance against engine compartment fire. 9 Not mentioned so far but should the wing tank pumps be in series with the engine pump. In most cases I suggest YES. This will keep the pressure higher at the engine driven pump input and will very helpful to eliminate vapor lock. There may be some cases where a failed engine driven pump will not pass fuel to the engine so in that case the electric tank pumps will not be able to provide a redundant way to supply fuel. Everything is a set of compromises but when I hooked such a system up in my RV6 that is the way I did it. I suppose there is more but for now the above is my take. Tom in Wisconsin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" > > Tom, would you please enlighten us as to which opinion is correct, then we > can move on. > > Do not archive. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas F Marson" > To: > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" > > > > > Seems like the sum total of all this is a good short article in Sport > Pilot. > > > > Fuel starvation is a major problem with homebuilts and when the smoke > > clears the answers and not too complex. But boy there are lots of > "opinions" > > that are not correct. Seems like lots of people "hear" someting and accept > > it as fact without enough personal thought and evaluation. > > > > Tom > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Cy Galley" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel selectors > > > > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > > > > The conversation has me convinced. IF you are pumping from 2 sources > and > > > one goes dry you will pump air. BUT if you have a pump pumping from a > > single > > > source then you are go to go until you pump it dry. If you have two > tanks > > > and use two pumps then you are good to go. One pump, two tanks and you > > have > > > a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > >