---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/13/04: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:20 AM - Fw: FFP Test Pilot (Thomas F Marson) 2. 02:11 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest Towing (Jim Frisby) 3. 05:30 AM - Test pilot () 4. 05:36 AM - Test pilot () 5. 07:56 AM - Re: Insurance costs (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 6. 08:18 AM - Need some Help Stratus EA-81 Panel Hookup (Andrew SanClemente) 7. 08:19 AM - PSA: Back up your websites! (Matthew Mucker) 8. 09:19 AM - Re: Insurance costs () 9. 10:23 AM - Re: Test pilot (wizard-24@juno.com) 10. 10:34 AM - Re: Insurance costs (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 11. 10:37 AM - Re: Insurance costs (Dan knezacek) 12. 10:57 AM - Test Pilot... (Bima, Martin) 13. 11:48 AM - Re: Insurance costs (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 14. 12:48 PM - Being your own test pilot (Bob Miller) 15. 12:49 PM - Test Pilot How-To Book. (Bob Miller) 16. 02:31 PM - Re: Being your own test pilot (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 17. 05:22 PM - Re: Test Pilot Book (Bob Miller) 18. 06:01 PM - Re: Test Pilot How-To Book. (Ray Montagne) 19. 06:26 PM - Re: Rudder cemtering and pressures (Carl Bertrand) 20. 07:21 PM - Re: Rudder cemtering and pressures (Robert Eli) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:15 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Fw: FFP Zenith-List: Test Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" More on pre first flight. I know the accident Ron D is refering to, it was his friend and he died on the initial flight. Stalled crashed and burned. This is factual. Do a calculation of the probable speed the prop pitch setting and engine rpm to be expected. His friend omitted that. The records show that he had lots of thrust but at redline rpm on the engine his forward speed was not much over 40 mph. Tom ----- Good advice, Tom. One thing additional, though. A lot of static thrust can be produced on the ground even when the prop pitch isn't enough to produce enough thrust in flight. Be sure the prop has enough pitch that it will still produce a good amount of thrust in flight. An incident a few years ago brought this to attention when the pitch was set low enough that even though a large amount of static thrust was there and allowed a quick take-off and climb in ground effect, the pitch wasn't enough to produce positive thrust above stall speed once out of ground effect, with disastrous results. So, check prop pitch for rpms vs. cruise/full speed, and if it needs changed, then re-check static thrust. Unless it's an engine/reduction/prop combination that's been used and proven before on a similar plane, don't assume a good static thrust alone will work in flight. Ron D. Thomas F Marson wrote: .....Run a test hooked to a thrust gage for a solid 2 minutes at full throttle. Measure thrust. ( rule of thumb is 4 lbs per horsepower) There fore if you think your engine is produceing 100 hp then you should get in the ball park of 400 lbs of thrust...... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:29 AM PST US From: "Jim Frisby" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Zenith-List Digest Towing --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Frisby" Thanks to all for opinions about towing my plane to the airport. I decided to get a slide-back to pick it up (after verifying it will pass under any wires and traffic lights) luckily there are no bridges to pass under. I've towed tailwheel planes backward with no problem, but this is different. Jim Frisby N801ZA Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:30 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Test pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:21 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: Test pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: If you have any doubts about your ability to fly your machine, by all means get a test pilot. Once they have flown it, get a written report and have them check out in your machine. On a personal level, it seems to me building an airplane is one long courtship, complete with the good & bad bits. The inspection is the marriage & the first flight is the honeymoon. Personally, I plan to be there for the honeymoon with no spectators. (Besides, how else can I honestly put "test pilot" on my resume?) My 2 cents worth, (actual value may be far less) Kevin Kinney 601XL Making flaps go up & down ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:02 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" 601 HDS Stratus (Not insurance friendly) $1170 last year with AIG thru AOPA...they helped a lot. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Arbeitman Subject: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gordon Arbeitman --> I've been lurking for awhile and I have a question. I called Falcon Insurance to get a quote on a used 701 and I was shocked at the numbers. They quoted me twice the premium I now pay to insure a $65K Grumman Tiger and I estimated the hull value of the 701 at 35K. What kinds of premiums are y'all paying ? I know that some folks just don't insure but I'm unwilling to do that. Thanks for any info. advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:16 AM PST US From: Andrew SanClemente Subject: Zenith-List: Need some Help Stratus EA-81 Panel Hookup --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente Hi, I have some questions regarding hooking up my Stratus EA-81 Alternator into my Panel (built by Gulf Coast). Unfortunately for me both the people at Gulf-Coast and Stratus are at Sun-n-Fun. If I could email a couple of diagrams I have related to the wiring with some questions can anyone help me out? Im trying to figure out my wiring between the Master Switch/Alternator/Starter/my Ammeter Shunt etc. I think I know how its supposed to go but am confused and don't want to wait the 2 weeks until everyone gets back from Sun-n- Fun. Please reply off-list Thanks!!! Andrew SanClemente 601 HDS Stratus EA-81 DO NOT ARCHIVE Hi, I have some questions regarding hooking up my Stratus EA-81 Alternator into my Panel (built by Gulf Coast). Unfortunately for me both the people at Gulf-Coast and Stratus are at Sun-n-Fun. If I could email a couple of diagrams I have related to the wiring with some questions can anyone help me out? Im trying to figure out my wiring between the Master Switch/Alternator/Starter/my Ammeter Shunt etc. I think I know how its supposed to go but am confused and don't want to wait the 2 weeks until everyone gets back from Sun-n- Fun. Please reply off-list Thanks!!! Andrew SanClemente 601 HDS Stratus EA-81 DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:40 AM PST US From: "Matthew Mucker" Subject: Zenith-List: PSA: Back up your websites! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" All, As a public service announcement, I submit to everyone that if your construction logs are on a website, back up all your files now. I had about an hour and a half of sheer panic today when I realized that significant amounts of data were missing from my website. Thankfully, I was able to find a backup version of the database file in question. I am, at this very moment, backing up my website to a CD-R. (This is in addition to the daily backups of the web server that I perform.) I'd really, really hate to see anyone invite a DAR out for an airworthiness inspection and not be able to document that they did the construction of the airplane because of a computer failure. Computers are fallible. There are two kinds of computer users: Those who have lost data, and those who will lose data. Get yourself some insurance: back up your files! Now back to your regularly scheduled mailing list. -Matt (Yes, this does mean I'm getting back to work after a long hiatus. Getting married will do that to you.) As this is non-airplane related, do not archive. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: 601 HDS 912 Rotax $909 from AIG (AOPA)last year. GGP ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Test pilot From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > If you have any doubts about your ability to fly your machine, by > all means get a test pilot. I respectfully have a different opinion on this. There is absolutely no way I will transfer the risk of flying my plane the first time to someone else. If it's too dangerous for me, then it's too dangerous for anyone. Why would I expect someone else to risk their life in lieu of me risking mine, on something that I built? Having said (wrote) that, there are some things I will do. I'll do everything I can to prepare myself for that first flight. Additional training in another Zodiac if possible, or something as similar as I can find. Studying the charateristics of the plane on the ground (if you can't fly it in your head, you shouldn't fly it in the air). Basically, I'll prepare myself to be the most qualified test pilot for MY plane. The idea that a builder is petrified of the first 30 seconds of flight --- so he/she gets someone else to do it doesn't seem at all fair to the "test pilot". Thus the reason that I think every pilot should consider doing their own first flight, and of course making damn sure they're prepared ahead of time. Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:36 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" I thought so...The $200 delta between your qute and mine is probably the Subaru engine..Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of george.pinneo@ngc.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: 601 HDS 912 Rotax $909 from AIG (AOPA)last year. GGP advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:09 AM PST US From: "Dan knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" Frank, What kind of coverage was that? Hull? liability? Thanks, Dan Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > 601 HDS Stratus (Not insurance friendly) $1170 last year with AIG thru > AOPA...they helped a lot. > > Frank > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:01 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Test Pilot... From: "Bima, Martin" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" I will make no money off of this plug - just passing along this great bit of info... Everyone who is flying a plane should read "Test Flying Your Homebuilt Aircraft" don't remember the author's name but the book is baby-blue and has a Lancair on the cover. This is an excellent read and will teach you how airplanes fly, how to test them, what they do when you do something - or nothing. The author's message is don't just burn gas for your 25 or 40 hours - learn about and tune up your plane. Step-by-step instructions from the decision to build to spin testing is all in there. I have read it twice straight through and keep on referring back to it. Best of all, it is short and written in plane (sorry) English. Do you know what a phugoid is? After reading the first two chapters, you will be in a better position to decide if you want to be the test pilot. My 2 cents (1.3 cents US) Martin Bima Winnipeg Manitoba STOL Vair 20% airframe ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:31 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Hull and liability. 100k per seat 1M single accident loss. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan knezacek Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Insurance costs --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" Frank, What kind of coverage was that? Hull? liability? Thanks, Dan Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Insurance costs > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > 601 HDS Stratus (Not insurance friendly) $1170 last year with AIG thru > AOPA...they helped a lot. > > Frank > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:43 PM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Being your own test pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Mike, This is exactly the way I feel about it. I built it, I'm gonna take the responsibility to get the training to take the first flight. On the other hand, if I were using the Stratus Subaru which has had a number of problems (instead of my proven Jabiru aircraft engine) I might think twice about it. Lots of times I'm willing to take chances others are not willing to take, so vice versa is ok by me. If someone else felt ok about taking that first flight and I didn't, well, no blame no shame. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Test pilot > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > If you have any doubts about your ability to fly your machine, by > > all means get a test pilot. > > I respectfully have a different opinion on this. There is absolutely no > way I will transfer the risk of flying my plane the first time to someone > else. If it's too dangerous for me, then it's too dangerous for anyone. > Why would I expect someone else to risk their life in lieu of me risking > mine, on something that I built? > > Having said (wrote) that, there are some things I will do. I'll do > everything I can to prepare myself for that first flight. Additional > training in another Zodiac if possible, or something as similar as I can > find. Studying the charateristics of the plane on the ground (if you > can't fly it in your head, you shouldn't fly it in the air). Basically, > I'll prepare myself to be the most qualified test pilot for MY plane. > > The idea that a builder is petrified of the first 30 seconds of flight > --- so he/she gets someone else to do it doesn't seem at all fair to the > "test pilot". Thus the reason that I think every pilot should consider > doing their own first flight, and of course making damn sure they're > prepared ahead of time. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:07 PM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Zenith-List: Test Pilot How-To Book. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Martin, Thanks for the reference. Man this list has lots of useful info. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bima, Martin" Subject: Zenith-List: Test Pilot... > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bima, Martin" > > I will make no money off of this plug - just passing along this great > bit of info... > > Everyone who is flying a plane should read "Test Flying Your Homebuilt > Aircraft" don't remember the author's name but the book is baby-blue > and has a Lancair on the cover. > > This is an excellent read and will teach you how airplanes fly, how to > test them, what they do when you do something - or nothing. The > author's message is don't just burn gas for your 25 or 40 hours - learn > about and tune up your plane. Step-by-step instructions from the > decision to build to spin testing is all in there. > > I have read it twice straight through and keep on referring back to it. > Best of all, it is short and written in plane (sorry) English. > > Do you know what a phugoid is? > > After reading the first two chapters, you will be in a better position > to decide if you want to be the test pilot. > > > My 2 cents (1.3 cents US) > > > Martin Bima > Winnipeg Manitoba > STOL Vair > 20% airframe > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:20 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Being your own test pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Of course I realise that we are talking personal preference here but the Stratus engine's problems are now well understood with a proper solution available. If the engine has not had the valve guide fix PERSONALLY I doubt I would want to fly it at all. Having said all that the ZAC is a really REALLY easy plane to fly Frank 320 hours HDS Stratus with Ram heads, Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Miller Subject: Zenith-List: Being your own test pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" --> Mike, This is exactly the way I feel about it. I built it, I'm gonna take the responsibility to get the training to take the first flight. On the other hand, if I were using the Stratus Subaru which has had a number of problems (instead of my proven Jabiru aircraft engine) I might think twice about it. Lots of times I'm willing to take chances others are not willing to take, so vice versa is ok by me. If someone else felt ok about taking that first flight and I didn't, well, no blame no shame. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Test pilot > --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > If you have any doubts about your ability to fly your machine, by > > all means get a test pilot. > > I respectfully have a different opinion on this. There is absolutely > no way I will transfer the risk of flying my plane the first time to > someone else. If it's too dangerous for me, then it's too dangerous > for anyone. Why would I expect someone else to risk their life in lieu > of me risking mine, on something that I built? > > Having said (wrote) that, there are some things I will do. I'll do > everything I can to prepare myself for that first flight. Additional > training in another Zodiac if possible, or something as similar as I > can find. Studying the charateristics of the plane on the ground (if > you can't fly it in your head, you shouldn't fly it in the air). > Basically, I'll prepare myself to be the most qualified test pilot for > MY plane. > > The idea that a builder is petrified of the first 30 seconds of flight > --- so he/she gets someone else to do it doesn't seem at all fair to > the "test pilot". Thus the reason that I think every pilot should > consider doing their own first flight, and of course making damn sure > they're prepared ahead of time. > > Mike Fortunato > 601XL > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:54 PM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Test Pilot Book --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" Martin, Looked your book up on Amazon, found "Flight Testing Homebuilt Aircraft" by Vaughan Askue. Has a baby-blue cover, looks like a Lancair on the cover but the photo's too small to tell. I ordered it, new for $22.37 including shipping. Thanks for the tip. Bob ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Test Pilot How-To Book. From: Ray Montagne --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne On 4/13/04 12:41 PM, "Bob Miller" wrote: >> Everyone who is flying a plane should read "Test Flying Your Homebuilt >> Aircraft" don't remember the author's name but the book is baby-blue >> and has a Lancair on the cover. >> That would be "Flight Testing Homebuilt Aircraft" by Vaughan Askue. ISBN-0-8138-1308-5 Iowa Satate Press Great book! Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA =========================================================================== Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Left Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Fuselage Under Construction NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not be viewable by me. =========================================================================== ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:06 PM PST US From: "Carl Bertrand" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder cemtering and pressures --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" I know the feeling Walt. I got tired so I modified my nose gear so I can disengage the nose wheel steering once airborne. I've used it for 3 years, works like a charm. You got to remember to reengage before landing. If your interested send me a self addressed envelope and $5 to cover the costs to make-up a rough drawing and print a couple of pics to send you. I've given-up on email; too much spam and virus. My address is: C. Bertrand 1824 Thistleleaf Cr Ottawa On K1C5W4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Cannon" Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder cemtering and pressures > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Walt Cannon" > > All, > > I know this topic has been brought up before, but here I go again. I have > about 15 hours on my CH701 and love every aspect of the handling qualities > except the feel of the rudder in the air. Pitch and roll inputs are nice, > smooth, and linear through the stick. But I find the rudder to have a > miserable feel in the air. There seems to be just enough binding in the > system coupled with the "V" shaped notch to center the landing gear that I > find it almost impossible to initiate and roll out of a nice smoothly > coordinated turn. > > Has anyone dealt with this issue in a way you found effective? I thought I > would just fly awhile to see it I had fit things to tightly and it would > loosen up a bit. I have also applied some grease to the strut, bearing and > riding surface of the "V" notch, but this seems to have little effect. > > It is not terrible, but I know others must have found a way to deal with > this to give it the same nice feel as the other controls. > > Walt Cannon > N701WD > Seattle WA > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:24 PM PST US From: "Robert Eli" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rudder cemtering and pressures --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Eli" Carl, Do you mind if I join in and send you my $5 also? I'm curious to see how your design works, since I've decided to modify my nose gear also. Bob Eli CH701 Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Bertrand Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder cemtering and pressures --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carl Bertrand" I know the feeling Walt. I got tired so I modified my nose gear so I can disengage the nose wheel steering once airborne. I've used it for 3 years, works like a charm. You got to remember to reengage before landing. If your interested send me a self addressed envelope and $5 to cover the costs to make-up a rough drawing and print a couple of pics to send you. I've given-up on email; too much spam and virus. My address is: C. Bertrand 1824 Thistleleaf Cr Ottawa On K1C5W4 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Cannon" Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder cemtering and pressures > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Walt Cannon" > > All, > > I know this topic has been brought up before, but here I go again. I have > about 15 hours on my CH701 and love every aspect of the handling qualities > except the feel of the rudder in the air. Pitch and roll inputs are nice, > smooth, and linear through the stick. But I find the rudder to have a > miserable feel in the air. There seems to be just enough binding in the > system coupled with the "V" shaped notch to center the landing gear that I > find it almost impossible to initiate and roll out of a nice smoothly > coordinated turn. > > Has anyone dealt with this issue in a way you found effective? I thought I > would just fly awhile to see it I had fit things to tightly and it would > loosen up a bit. I have also applied some grease to the strut, bearing and > riding surface of the "V" notch, but this seems to have little effect. > > It is not terrible, but I know others must have found a way to deal with > this to give it the same nice feel as the other controls. > > Walt Cannon > N701WD > Seattle WA > >