Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:54 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
2. 07:55 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
3. 08:51 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (David Barth)
4. 09:55 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
5. 05:36 PM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (paulvanmunster@bigpond.com)
6. 06:02 PM - Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there (xl)
7. 07:06 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? (Thomas F Marson)
8. 07:46 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? (James Neely)
9. 08:17 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test (Bryan Martin)
10. 11:51 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? (wizard-24@juno.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes definatly shot down...Your right of course the inboard tank will not
fill without a vent.
On the 6 port valve its very difficult to o=use a pump at the output of the
tank to pressurise the whole system (which is highly desirable) as when the
tank selector is on left tank say, the right tanks pump will be dead
headed....Somehow you need to turn the unused pump off...Getting a little
complex for my tastes.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 4/27/04 7:01 PM, HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) at frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I have a couple of initial thoughts that I am happy to have shot down.
>
> I am thinking that you do not need a vent on the inboard tank...Just
> the large connection tube and the vent on the outboard tank.
I hope you're wearing your flak vest. :)
He needs a vent from the inboard tank to the outboard tank or the inboard
tank will not fill, he's only planning to have a filler cap on the outboard
tank. As the fuel flows through the lower tube from the outboard tank, the
air must exit the inboard tank through the upper tube.
>
> A wing tank only fuel injected system does create a few problems in my
> mind. You are almost certainly into a 6 port fuel selector valve (I
> don't even use a selector on my carb engined plane) which also means
> putting the pump(s) on the outlet to the valve. This means sucking on
> a few feet of pipe with the potential attendant vapour lock issues.
The bottom of the inboard tank is a few inches above the cabin floor. If the
pump is near the low point of the system (near the gascolator) and the lines
leading to it offer minimal restriction to flow, the inlet to the pump will
have some pressure due to gravity feed. Not much but at least enough to
prevent suction from forming.
Or He could put the pumps at the outlet of the tanks and pressurize the
entire fuel line as is done on most autos now. In either case a 6 port valve
is needed.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Nearly done.
do not archive.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I agree but going fuel injected is definatly getting away from KISS.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Benford2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 4/27/2004 4:39:28 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bryanmmartin@comcast.net writes:
>
> > In keeping with the KISS principle for fuel systems I
> > would like to simply treat my inboard and outboard
> > tank as one tank on each side. I will have four
> > tanks, two in each wing. I want to have a simple
> > large diameter hose (1 inch?) connect the two left
> > wing tanks and a smaller hose connecting them higher
> > up for venting purposes. I would only have a filler
> > and external vent line on the outboard tank but drain valves on both
> > the outboard and inboard. Then do the same for the right wing.
> >
> > David
>
I did the exact thing on my 801. Works ok. If I had to change anything I
would have put the ZAC tanks in the outboard section and my long range ones
inboard. That way the dihedral would work in my favor. KISS is the best way
to go
in the fuel system department....
Ben Haas N801BH
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 3
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Actually Frank I was contemplating the use of the
electrically operated 6-port valve and using the same
switch for the valve as for the pumps which will be at
the outlets of the tanks. In valve failure mode all
ports are open. So will I need to ensure there are
check valves in the pumps? I will need a manual
shut-off in the event of power failure AND forced
landing.
What I want is one switch for left-right-off and no
pumps deadheading. In effect one flick of a switch
gets me from left tank fuel , left tank fuel return
and left tank pump to all of these on the right. Some
times to get KISS on the operating side you have to
have less KISS on the set up (with a few failsafes of
course). Like fuel injected. More complex to set up
but no worries about carb heat or mixture. It's
KISSer for the pilot. All trade-offs like everything
else.
Anyone else have comments?
Thanks for your input.
David
--- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK
> (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Yes definatly shot down...Your right of course the
> inboard tank will not
> fill without a vent.
>
> On the 6 port valve its very difficult to o=use a
> pump at the output of the
> tank to pressurise the whole system (which is highly
> desirable) as when the
> tank selector is on left tank say, the right tanks
> pump will be dead
> headed....Somehow you need to turn the unused pump
> off...Getting a little
> complex for my tastes.
>
> Frank
>
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Message 4
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps as you now have a single
point of failure and only one electrical supply to the pumps...If the fuse
blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:)
I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and two electrically
isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery that drives the second
fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single alternator supply is
electrically isolated between the two batteries by a diode to prevent
backflow in the event of a major short.
I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in the event of a power
supply....how do you test this, is it spring operated?...can you test this
function on every preflight?
Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb heat either...A lot
kissier.
Having said that I am going the fuel injected route on the next plane so the
electric 6 port valve might be an option.
If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you could use a relay
contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make sure you use the
normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes away the relays close and
both pumps start....I think this will need to be a separate relay that just
monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not obvious off hand how
you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the relay dies it will start
the pump.
I don't have much time now so the above are some random thoughts i.e how do
you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve goes away?...What
happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads in a power failure...do
you care anyway?
I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for the pumps as long as
the selector valve normally isolates the the non selected tank.
What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you consdering moving the high
pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be simplist, or just a low
pressure priming pump?
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Actually Frank I was contemplating the use of the
electrically operated 6-port valve and using the same
switch for the valve as for the pumps which will be at
the outlets of the tanks. In valve failure mode all
ports are open. So will I need to ensure there are
check valves in the pumps? I will need a manual
shut-off in the event of power failure AND forced
landing.
What I want is one switch for left-right-off and no
pumps deadheading. In effect one flick of a switch
gets me from left tank fuel , left tank fuel return
and left tank pump to all of these on the right. Some
times to get KISS on the operating side you have to
have less KISS on the set up (with a few failsafes of
course). Like fuel injected. More complex to set up
but no worries about carb heat or mixture. It's
KISSer for the pilot. All trade-offs like everything
else.
Anyone else have comments?
Thanks for your input.
David
--- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK
> (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Yes definatly shot down...Your right of course the
> inboard tank will not
> fill without a vent.
>
> On the 6 port valve its very difficult to o=use a
> pump at the output of the
> tank to pressurise the whole system (which is highly
> desirable) as when the
> tank selector is on left tank say, the right tanks
> pump will be dead
> headed....Somehow you need to turn the unused pump off...Getting a
> little complex for my tastes.
>
> Frank
>
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 5
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: paulvanmunster@bigpond.com
Hi just thought I would put my bit in
.What happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads in a power
failure...do
you care anyway?
No problem at all if you select the correct pump
Most pumps are designed to run dead head continually. Fact is they do not run at
all
unless there is a fuel demand they run up to operating pressure and stop. This
could be
a problem in the case of a fire if you need to turn them off though.
Paul
Message 6
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| Subject: | Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are |
there
suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
Hello again,
633Z has ~14 hours on the hobbs!
I love the climb performance. I'm at pattern altitude before I turn
crosswind. I've been doing timed climbs + descents, stalls, slow flight
and turns. Great fun! And I finally get to use the grass strip - couldn't
do that in the rentals. I'm still getting used to the controls. During
landings I don't 'move' them I put light pressure on. It doesn't take much
elevator or rudder movement to make a big difference in the attitude and
2 feet off the ground that's very noticable. I've done 2 go arounds
because of my twitchyness at the controls. I spent some time the other day
just doing landings. And I'm getting better at them.
Now I'd like to load 633Z to gross weight and repeat.
I could go pickup 240 pounds of pier blocks or .....
But I thought I'd ask if any one at AWO has flight test ballast.
Or if there was other ballast that would be better.
Sure lead is denser than concrete but...
Cheers, Joe Edwards
N633Z @ AWO
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or |
are there suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
I purchased water softner salt pellets at 50 lbs per bag. I need them
anyway. Could that work for y ou?
Tom Marson
----- Original Message -----
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or |
are there suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "James Neely" <jneely@cogeco.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "xl" <xl@prosody.org>
Subject: Zenith-List: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or
are there suggestions?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>
>
> Now I'd like to load 633Z to gross weight and repeat.
> I could go pickup 240 pounds of pier blocks or .....
> But I thought I'd ask if any one at AWO has flight test ballast.
> Or if there was other ballast that would be better.
> Sure lead is denser than concrete but...
>
> Cheers, Joe Edwards
> N633Z @ AWO
>
Some years ago I "bought" 700lb of sheep manure in 50lb bags to load test a
wing. I told the nursery salesperson what I was doing and he promised to
take it all back. The load test went fine and I simply returned the stuff.
James 601HD
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test |
flights - or are there suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "xl" <xl@prosody.org>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or
> are there suggestions?
>
>
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>>
>>
>> Now I'd like to load 633Z to gross weight and repeat.
>> I could go pickup 240 pounds of pier blocks or .....
>> But I thought I'd ask if any one at AWO has flight test ballast.
>> Or if there was other ballast that would be better.
>> Sure lead is denser than concrete but...
>>
>> Cheers, Joe Edwards
>> N633Z @ AWO
>>
You should be able to get 50# bags of sand or pea gravel fairly cheep at a
builder supply store. You can probably return them to the store when you're
done with them. Sand bags are more convenient for ballast than concrete
blocks for your purposes. Take the cushions out of the passenger seat, put
an old blanket in there and start piling on the sand bags. You can even
strap them in after loading.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Airframe construction complete.
Panel and engine installed.
Nearly done.
do not archive.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or |
are there suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> Now I'd like to load 633Z to gross weight and repeat.
> I could go pickup 240 pounds of pier blocks or .....
> But I thought I'd ask if any one at AWO has flight test ballast.
> Or if there was other ballast that would be better.
If I lived near you, I would be happy to provide about 165 pounds of
willing ballast. :)
Mike Fortunato
601XL
do not archive
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