Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:42 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (David Barth)
2. 07:58 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1))
3. 08:55 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (Bill Cardell)
4. 11:32 AM - wing incidence angle 601HDS (Richard Wyness)
5. 04:27 PM - Re: Engine AND ignition working (Larry McFarland)
6. 05:29 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are t... (Joemotis@aol.com)
7. 05:58 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? (Matthew Mucker)
8. 06:24 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test (Jim and Lucy)
9. 06:50 PM - zenith 601 in china (etn industries limited)
10. 07:01 PM - Re: Engine AND ignition working (Michel Therrien)
11. 08:12 PM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (Larry Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
That is lots to chew on for the moment. I think at
this point I will draw it out with components and
specs and then get back to the list with other issues
as they crop up. Thanks Frank and others who
responded.
David
PS. I don't mean to stop this thread and if others
have advice to offer on my proposed fuel system, I
will still be glad of it.
--- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK
> (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps
> as you now have a single
> point of failure and only one electrical supply to
> the pumps...If the fuse
> blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:)
>
> I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and
> two electrically
> isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery
> that drives the second
> fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single
> alternator supply is
> electrically isolated between the two batteries by a
> diode to prevent
> backflow in the event of a major short.
>
> I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in
> the event of a power
> supply....how do you test this, is it spring
> operated?...can you test this
> function on every preflight?
>
> Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb
> heat either...A lot
> kissier.
>
> Having said that I am going the fuel injected route
> on the next plane so the
> electric 6 port valve might be an option.
>
> If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you
> could use a relay
> contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make
> sure you use the
> normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes
> away the relays close and
> both pumps start....I think this will need to be a
> separate relay that just
> monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not
> obvious off hand how
> you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the
> relay dies it will start
> the pump.
>
> I don't have much time now so the above are some
> random thoughts i.e how do
> you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve
> goes away?...What
> happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads
> in a power failure...do
> you care anyway?
>
> I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for
> the pumps as long as
> the selector valve normally isolates the the non
> selected tank.
>
> What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you
> consdering moving the high
> pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be
> simplist, or just a low
> pressure priming pump?
>
> Frank
>
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Message 2
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
At best it is a complex system when going fuel injected...If the engine
sputters at 2000 feet you have at best time for one or two decisions to get
the thing running or you will be looking for a field.
Don't underestimate this..splutter, splutter do something and it had better
run...Very little time to think about how the system works, it almost has to
be a brain stem reflex.
In my plane its turn on the other pump...thats it!
And that includes no mixture or carb heat.
Oh by the way, someone else said that the pumps are designed to be dead
headed....The low pressure Facet pumps are (which could maybe be used as
priming pumps) but I don't know if the same is true for the high pressure FI
pumps? They don't normally work this way, in fact they rely on high fuel
rates to cool the pump.
Later
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
That is lots to chew on for the moment. I think at
this point I will draw it out with components and
specs and then get back to the list with other issues
as they crop up. Thanks Frank and others who
responded.
David
PS. I don't mean to stop this thread and if others
have advice to offer on my proposed fuel system, I
will still be glad of it.
--- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK
> (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps
> as you now have a single
> point of failure and only one electrical supply to
> the pumps...If the fuse
> blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:)
>
> I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and
> two electrically
> isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery
> that drives the second
> fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single
> alternator supply is
> electrically isolated between the two batteries by a
> diode to prevent
> backflow in the event of a major short.
>
> I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in
> the event of a power
> supply....how do you test this, is it spring
> operated?...can you test this
> function on every preflight?
>
> Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb
> heat either...A lot
> kissier.
>
> Having said that I am going the fuel injected route
> on the next plane so the
> electric 6 port valve might be an option.
>
> If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you
> could use a relay
> contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make
> sure you use the
> normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes
> away the relays close and
> both pumps start....I think this will need to be a
> separate relay that just
> monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not
> obvious off hand how
> you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the
> relay dies it will start
> the pump.
>
> I don't have much time now so the above are some
> random thoughts i.e how do
> you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve
> goes away?...What
> happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads
> in a power failure...do
> you care anyway?
>
> I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for
> the pumps as long as
> the selector valve normally isolates the the non
> selected tank.
>
> What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you
> consdering moving the high
> pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be
> simplist, or just a low
> pressure priming pump?
>
> Frank
>
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 3
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| Subject: | fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell <bill@flyinmiata.com>
Agreed about the FI pumps. They are designed to run a return system to the
tank, get very unhappy when deadheaded for any time.
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
bill@flyinmiata.com
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6957 (sales only)
970-242-3800 (tech support)
http://flyinmiata.com
http://flyinprotege.com
Oh by the way, someone else said that the pumps are designed to be dead
headed....The low pressure Facet pumps are (which could maybe be used as
priming pumps) but I don't know if the same is true for the high pressure FI
pumps? They don't normally work this way, in fact they rely on high fuel
rates to cool the pump.
Later
Frank
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | wing incidence angle 601HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard Wyness" <richard@wynessr.freeserve.co.uk>
I'm connecting the rear fuselage to the centre wing section, and on drawing 6F5
it says the wing incidence should be 3 degrees. If i align the rear longerons
so that they are parallel to the upper front longerons then this is only 2 degrees.
Is this OK ? Has anyone else had a similar problem?
Richard.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine AND ignition working |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Michel,
Pleased to hear that you've been doing run ups, so things are getting
close.
I'd really like to hear from you when you've time to elaborate on
things that were done to make your ignition work, start dependably
etc. Did you stick with the Paul Messenger design or modify it to
a great degree? There are probably several that would like to
know what was done to get a rugged ignition system to work.
Watching your progress with enthusiasm here too!
Larry McFarland
do not archive
Subject: Zenith-List: Engine AND ignition working
Finally, I got
> the engine working with the Nippodenso/GM HEI setup...
> We sat in the plane tied down to the ground and ran
> the engine for a while at 4400 rpm.. FUN! Cooling
> appears to be good so I'm getting confident that I'll
> have final inspection in may or june
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or |
are t...
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
How about barbells or free weights or do you know any shotgun shell
reloaders? If I remember right, bags of shot were fifty pounds or maybe twenty
five. If
you are anywhere near Huntington Beach CA. I can loan you lead I saved from
an X ray suite remodel I once did.
Joe Motis
601 XL
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or |
are there suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" <matthew@mucker.net>
> Some years ago I "bought" 700lb of sheep manure in 50lb bags
> to load test a
> wing. I told the nursery salesperson what I was doing and he
> promised to
> take it all back. The load test went fine and I simply
> returned the stuff.
> James 601HD
>
Sheep manure!?
You are a braver soul than I! I'm thinking that playground sand could serve
the same purpose and be a tad less.. er... risky.
-Matt
Message 8
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| Subject: | Does any one at AWO have ballast for test |
flights - or are there suggestions?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@mnsi.net>
bags of ice cubes
Message 9
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| Subject: | zenith 601 in china |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: etn industries limited <sudhir19_us@yahoo.com>
i have built the rudder kit now , in china , but i have two problems which stop
me from going ahead
1} high duty : they chasged me almost 50 % duty on rudder kit , im afraid if i
import rest of full kit , such high duty i cant afford
2} legalisation and certification : i dont know how to do ,
next month im moving to shanghai hope can find some ppl who can assisst me ,, there.
best regards,
sudhir wadhwa
Room no. 301, bldg. 21,
Huatong garden, Chengnan,
Shaoxing, Zhejiang, China
0086-13757501606
13157552197
575-8853673
575- 8067856{fax}
---------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Engine AND ignition working |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
I sticked to P. Messinger's design. I guess that last
summer, I had the difficulties because of using long
booster cables that I connected a contactor in the
rear fuselage (loss of voltage). Righ now, with the
two batteries installed, the ignition works very much
find.
I found in my verifications that the dizzy needs 135
rpm to produce consistent sparks (that's equivalent to
270 engine rpm). At 200 engine rpm, it will emit
inconsistent sparks. My engine starts at more than
320 rpm.
How did i find that information about dizzy speed
requirement? I attached the dizzy to a
battery-powered hand drill with duct tape. I
connected everything on my workbench and I used my
strobe light that also shows RPM to figure out the
dizzy rpm. I forgot to say that I connected a single
wire and spark plug to the coil.
For testing the engine starting speed. I connected
the single wire/spark plug to the coil and use the
strobe light in the same fashion (while trying to
start the engine.)
Michel
--- Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
> <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Michel,
> Pleased to hear that you've been doing run ups, so
> things are getting
> close.
>
> I'd really like to hear from you when you've time to
> elaborate on
> things that were done to make your ignition work,
> start dependably
> etc. Did you stick with the Paul Messenger design
> or modify it to
> a great degree? There are probably several that
> would like to
> know what was done to get a rugged ignition system
> to work.
> Watching your progress with enthusiasm here too!
>
> Larry McFarland
> do not archive
>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Engine AND ignition working
>
>
> Finally, I got
> > the engine working with the Nippodenso/GM HEI
> setup...
>
> > We sat in the plane tied down to the ground and
> ran
> > the engine for a while at 4400 rpm.. FUN! Cooling
> > appears to be good so I'm getting confident that
> I'll
> > have final inspection in may or june
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: fuel tanks for XL |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
I don't understand what is complex about a FI fuel system. It's really straight
forward and logical. You just have to follow the rules. The only trick with
a FI is to make sure you return fuel to the tank it came from. Like someone
said you can't deadhead a high pressure pump. I'm in the FI corner for many reasons,
better fuel economy, engine last longer, can use a lower octane fuel,
no icing, much higher reliability, more power and most of all, no moving parts.
Carburetors have moving parts, it's not a matter if the are going to give you
trouble, it's when are the going to give you trouble. I don't believe there
is a single modern auto maker that uses carburetors. That should tell you all
you need to know. Most of your aircraft engines are slowly but surely go to
FI. I would like to say that the above is just my opinion, but it not, it's
just the facts and that's my opinion.
Larry N1345L
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)
To: 'zenith-list@matronics.com'
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
At best it is a complex system when going fuel injected...If the engine
sputters at 2000 feet you have at best time for one or two decisions to get
the thing running or you will be looking for a field.
Don't underestimate this..splutter, splutter do something and it had better
run...Very little time to think about how the system works, it almost has to
be a brain stem reflex.
In my plane its turn on the other pump...thats it!
And that includes no mixture or carb heat.
Oh by the way, someone else said that the pumps are designed to be dead
headed....The low pressure Facet pumps are (which could maybe be used as
priming pumps) but I don't know if the same is true for the high pressure FI
pumps? They don't normally work this way, in fact they rely on high fuel
rates to cool the pump.
Later
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
That is lots to chew on for the moment. I think at
this point I will draw it out with components and
specs and then get back to the list with other issues
as they crop up. Thanks Frank and others who
responded.
David
PS. I don't mean to stop this thread and if others
have advice to offer on my proposed fuel system, I
will still be glad of it.
--- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK
> (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps
> as you now have a single
> point of failure and only one electrical supply to
> the pumps...If the fuse
> blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:)
>
> I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and
> two electrically
> isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery
> that drives the second
> fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single
> alternator supply is
> electrically isolated between the two batteries by a
> diode to prevent
> backflow in the event of a major short.
>
> I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in
> the event of a power
> supply....how do you test this, is it spring
> operated?...can you test this
> function on every preflight?
>
> Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb
> heat either...A lot
> kissier.
>
> Having said that I am going the fuel injected route
> on the next plane so the
> electric 6 port valve might be an option.
>
> If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you
> could use a relay
> contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make
> sure you use the
> normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes
> away the relays close and
> both pumps start....I think this will need to be a
> separate relay that just
> monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not
> obvious off hand how
> you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the
> relay dies it will start
> the pump.
>
> I don't have much time now so the above are some
> random thoughts i.e how do
> you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve
> goes away?...What
> happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads
> in a power failure...do
> you care anyway?
>
> I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for
> the pumps as long as
> the selector valve normally isolates the the non
> selected tank.
>
> What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you
> consdering moving the high
> pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be
> simplist, or just a low
> pressure priming pump?
>
> Frank
>
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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