---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/29/04: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:42 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (David Barth) 2. 07:58 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 3. 08:55 AM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (Bill Cardell) 4. 11:32 AM - wing incidence angle 601HDS (Richard Wyness) 5. 04:27 PM - Re: Engine AND ignition working (Larry McFarland) 6. 05:29 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are t... (Joemotis@aol.com) 7. 05:58 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? (Matthew Mucker) 8. 06:24 PM - Re: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test (Jim and Lucy) 9. 06:50 PM - zenith 601 in china (etn industries limited) 10. 07:01 PM - Re: Engine AND ignition working (Michel Therrien) 11. 08:12 PM - Re: fuel tanks for XL (Larry Martin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:51 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth That is lots to chew on for the moment. I think at this point I will draw it out with components and specs and then get back to the list with other issues as they crop up. Thanks Frank and others who responded. David PS. I don't mean to stop this thread and if others have advice to offer on my proposed fuel system, I will still be glad of it. --- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK > (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps > as you now have a single > point of failure and only one electrical supply to > the pumps...If the fuse > blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:) > > I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and > two electrically > isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery > that drives the second > fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single > alternator supply is > electrically isolated between the two batteries by a > diode to prevent > backflow in the event of a major short. > > I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in > the event of a power > supply....how do you test this, is it spring > operated?...can you test this > function on every preflight? > > Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb > heat either...A lot > kissier. > > Having said that I am going the fuel injected route > on the next plane so the > electric 6 port valve might be an option. > > If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you > could use a relay > contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make > sure you use the > normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes > away the relays close and > both pumps start....I think this will need to be a > separate relay that just > monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not > obvious off hand how > you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the > relay dies it will start > the pump. > > I don't have much time now so the above are some > random thoughts i.e how do > you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve > goes away?...What > happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads > in a power failure...do > you care anyway? > > I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for > the pumps as long as > the selector valve normally isolates the the non > selected tank. > > What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you > consdering moving the high > pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be > simplist, or just a low > pressure priming pump? > > Frank > ===== David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:31 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" At best it is a complex system when going fuel injected...If the engine sputters at 2000 feet you have at best time for one or two decisions to get the thing running or you will be looking for a field. Don't underestimate this..splutter, splutter do something and it had better run...Very little time to think about how the system works, it almost has to be a brain stem reflex. In my plane its turn on the other pump...thats it! And that includes no mixture or carb heat. Oh by the way, someone else said that the pumps are designed to be dead headed....The low pressure Facet pumps are (which could maybe be used as priming pumps) but I don't know if the same is true for the high pressure FI pumps? They don't normally work this way, in fact they rely on high fuel rates to cool the pump. Later Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth That is lots to chew on for the moment. I think at this point I will draw it out with components and specs and then get back to the list with other issues as they crop up. Thanks Frank and others who responded. David PS. I don't mean to stop this thread and if others have advice to offer on my proposed fuel system, I will still be glad of it. --- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK > (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps > as you now have a single > point of failure and only one electrical supply to > the pumps...If the fuse > blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:) > > I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and > two electrically > isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery > that drives the second > fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single > alternator supply is > electrically isolated between the two batteries by a > diode to prevent > backflow in the event of a major short. > > I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in > the event of a power > supply....how do you test this, is it spring > operated?...can you test this > function on every preflight? > > Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb > heat either...A lot > kissier. > > Having said that I am going the fuel injected route > on the next plane so the > electric 6 port valve might be an option. > > If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you > could use a relay > contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make > sure you use the > normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes > away the relays close and > both pumps start....I think this will need to be a > separate relay that just > monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not > obvious off hand how > you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the > relay dies it will start > the pump. > > I don't have much time now so the above are some > random thoughts i.e how do > you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve > goes away?...What > happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads > in a power failure...do > you care anyway? > > I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for > the pumps as long as > the selector valve normally isolates the the non > selected tank. > > What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you > consdering moving the high > pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be > simplist, or just a low > pressure priming pump? > > Frank > ===== David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:32 AM PST US From: Bill Cardell Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell Agreed about the FI pumps. They are designed to run a return system to the tank, get very unhappy when deadheaded for any time. Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) bill@flyinmiata.com Flyin' Miata 1-800-359-6957 (sales only) 970-242-3800 (tech support) http://flyinmiata.com http://flyinprotege.com Oh by the way, someone else said that the pumps are designed to be dead headed....The low pressure Facet pumps are (which could maybe be used as priming pumps) but I don't know if the same is true for the high pressure FI pumps? They don't normally work this way, in fact they rely on high fuel rates to cool the pump. Later Frank Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:27 AM PST US From: "Richard Wyness" Subject: Zenith-List: wing incidence angle 601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard Wyness" I'm connecting the rear fuselage to the centre wing section, and on drawing 6F5 it says the wing incidence should be 3 degrees. If i align the rear longerons so that they are parallel to the upper front longerons then this is only 2 degrees. Is this OK ? Has anyone else had a similar problem? Richard. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:48 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine AND ignition working --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Michel, Pleased to hear that you've been doing run ups, so things are getting close. I'd really like to hear from you when you've time to elaborate on things that were done to make your ignition work, start dependably etc. Did you stick with the Paul Messenger design or modify it to a great degree? There are probably several that would like to know what was done to get a rugged ignition system to work. Watching your progress with enthusiasm here too! Larry McFarland do not archive Subject: Zenith-List: Engine AND ignition working Finally, I got > the engine working with the Nippodenso/GM HEI setup... > We sat in the plane tied down to the ground and ran > the engine for a while at 4400 rpm.. FUN! Cooling > appears to be good so I'm getting confident that I'll > have final inspection in may or june ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:04 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are t... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com How about barbells or free weights or do you know any shotgun shell reloaders? If I remember right, bags of shot were fifty pounds or maybe twenty five. If you are anywhere near Huntington Beach CA. I can loan you lead I saved from an X ray suite remodel I once did. Joe Motis 601 XL do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:49 PM PST US From: "Matthew Mucker" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matthew Mucker" > Some years ago I "bought" 700lb of sheep manure in 50lb bags > to load test a > wing. I told the nursery salesperson what I was doing and he > promised to > take it all back. The load test went fine and I simply > returned the stuff. > James 601HD > Sheep manure!? You are a braver soul than I! I'm thinking that playground sand could serve the same purpose and be a tad less.. er... risky. -Matt ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:40 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Does any one at AWO have ballast for test flights - or are there suggestions? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy bags of ice cubes ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:42 PM PST US From: etn industries limited Subject: Zenith-List: zenith 601 in china --> Zenith-List message posted by: etn industries limited i have built the rudder kit now , in china , but i have two problems which stop me from going ahead 1} high duty : they chasged me almost 50 % duty on rudder kit , im afraid if i import rest of full kit , such high duty i cant afford 2} legalisation and certification : i dont know how to do , next month im moving to shanghai hope can find some ppl who can assisst me ,, there. best regards, sudhir wadhwa Room no. 301, bldg. 21, Huatong garden, Chengnan, Shaoxing, Zhejiang, China 0086-13757501606 13157552197 575-8853673 575- 8067856{fax} --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:32 PM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine AND ignition working --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien I sticked to P. Messinger's design. I guess that last summer, I had the difficulties because of using long booster cables that I connected a contactor in the rear fuselage (loss of voltage). Righ now, with the two batteries installed, the ignition works very much find. I found in my verifications that the dizzy needs 135 rpm to produce consistent sparks (that's equivalent to 270 engine rpm). At 200 engine rpm, it will emit inconsistent sparks. My engine starts at more than 320 rpm. How did i find that information about dizzy speed requirement? I attached the dizzy to a battery-powered hand drill with duct tape. I connected everything on my workbench and I used my strobe light that also shows RPM to figure out the dizzy rpm. I forgot to say that I connected a single wire and spark plug to the coil. For testing the engine starting speed. I connected the single wire/spark plug to the coil and use the strobe light in the same fashion (while trying to start the engine.) Michel --- Larry McFarland wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > > Michel, > Pleased to hear that you've been doing run ups, so > things are getting > close. > > I'd really like to hear from you when you've time to > elaborate on > things that were done to make your ignition work, > start dependably > etc. Did you stick with the Paul Messenger design > or modify it to > a great degree? There are probably several that > would like to > know what was done to get a rugged ignition system > to work. > Watching your progress with enthusiasm here too! > > Larry McFarland > do not archive > > Subject: Zenith-List: Engine AND ignition working > > > Finally, I got > > the engine working with the Nippodenso/GM HEI > setup... > > > We sat in the plane tied down to the ground and > ran > > the engine for a while at 4400 rpm.. FUN! Cooling > > appears to be good so I'm getting confident that > I'll > > have final inspection in may or june > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:35 PM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" I don't understand what is complex about a FI fuel system. It's really straight forward and logical. You just have to follow the rules. The only trick with a FI is to make sure you return fuel to the tank it came from. Like someone said you can't deadhead a high pressure pump. I'm in the FI corner for many reasons, better fuel economy, engine last longer, can use a lower octane fuel, no icing, much higher reliability, more power and most of all, no moving parts. Carburetors have moving parts, it's not a matter if the are going to give you trouble, it's when are the going to give you trouble. I don't believe there is a single modern auto maker that uses carburetors. That should tell you all you need to know. Most of your aircraft engines are slowly but surely go to FI. I would like to say that the above is just my opinion, but it not, it's just the facts and that's my opinion. Larry N1345L Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1) To: 'zenith-list@matronics.com' Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" At best it is a complex system when going fuel injected...If the engine sputters at 2000 feet you have at best time for one or two decisions to get the thing running or you will be looking for a field. Don't underestimate this..splutter, splutter do something and it had better run...Very little time to think about how the system works, it almost has to be a brain stem reflex. In my plane its turn on the other pump...thats it! And that includes no mixture or carb heat. Oh by the way, someone else said that the pumps are designed to be dead headed....The low pressure Facet pumps are (which could maybe be used as priming pumps) but I don't know if the same is true for the high pressure FI pumps? They don't normally work this way, in fact they rely on high fuel rates to cool the pump. Later Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Barth To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: fuel tanks for XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth That is lots to chew on for the moment. I think at this point I will draw it out with components and specs and then get back to the list with other issues as they crop up. Thanks Frank and others who responded. David PS. I don't mean to stop this thread and if others have advice to offer on my proposed fuel system, I will still be glad of it. --- "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK > (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" > > Firstly I avoid a single switch for the fuel pumps > as you now have a single > point of failure and only one electrical supply to > the pumps...If the fuse > blows your dead...well dead stick anyway...:) > > I have two pumps each with its own on-off switch and > two electrically > isolated power supplies (namely a small 3AH battery > that drives the second > fuel pump and second ignition only)...The single > alternator supply is > electrically isolated between the two batteries by a > diode to prevent > backflow in the event of a major short. > > I would make bloody sure the ports are all open in > the event of a power > supply....how do you test this, is it spring > operated?...can you test this > function on every preflight? > > Altitude compensating carbs have no mixture or carb > heat either...A lot > kissier. > > Having said that I am going the fuel injected route > on the next plane so the > electric 6 port valve might be an option. > > If you use a battery supply for each pump, maybe you > could use a relay > contact driven by the fuel valve supply...Just make > sure you use the > normally closes (NC) contact so if the valve goes > away the relays close and > both pumps start....I think this will need to be a > separate relay that just > monitors the electrical supply to the valve. Its not > obvious off hand how > you will design this to be fail safe....i.e if the > relay dies it will start > the pump. > > I don't have much time now so the above are some > random thoughts i.e how do > you get the pumps to start if the power to the valve > goes away?...What > happens to the pressure in the pump if it dead heads > in a power failure...do > you care anyway? > > I don't 'think' you will need a non return valve for > the pumps as long as > the selector valve normally isolates the the non > selected tank. > > What pressure is the valve rated to?...Are you > consdering moving the high > pressure pumps to the tank outlets?...That would be > simplist, or just a low > pressure priming pump? > > Frank > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting __________________________________ http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover advertising on the Matronics Forums. --- Version: 6.0.581 / Virus Database: 368 - Release Date: 2/9/2004