---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/18/04: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - Re: wing strut fittings (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 2. 07:40 AM - Re: aileron trim anti-servo tab (Dan knezacek) 3. 07:51 AM - Re: aileron trim (Dave Kubassek) 4. 09:10 AM - Re: Suzuki 1.3L 4 cyl 8 valve in a 701? (Dirk Slabbert) 5. 10:15 AM - Does this work well? (Rick Roberts) 6. 10:23 AM - slow day on the list, (Bill Cardell) 7. 10:57 AM - Re: Does this work well? (RiveDrill) (Carlos Sa) 8. 11:54 AM - Re: aileron trim (Dan knezacek) 9. 12:56 PM - Re: 912 hard start when hot (Richard McLachlan) 10. 01:53 PM - Re: 912 hard start when hot (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 11. 01:56 PM - Re: 912 hard start when hot (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 12. 02:16 PM - Re: 912 hard start when hot () 13. 03:34 PM - Re: 912 hard start when hot (Jackie B. Johnson) 14. 07:25 PM - 701 Gross Weight? (Mike Sinclair) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:03 AM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: wing strut fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 5/16/2004 9:34:46 PM Central Daylight Time, rlee468@comcast.net writes: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" > > I am about to drill the wing strut fittings to fuselage. Does anyone have > any words of wisdom for drilling the holes inside the channel. I have the holes > drilled in the steel tabs that fit inside the channel, the problem is then > back > drilling through the aluminum portion. There is no room to drill from inside > of the cabin so they must be drilled from inside of the channel. This would > take a very small angle drill head which I do not have. Does anyone have > another solution. > > One of the 90 degree air grinder's, Harbor Freight, will fit into the channel if a short 1/8 drill bit is used. Chuck it up in the 1/8 in collett. If the bolt holes in the steel tabs are already opened up to 3/16, some kind of a bushing to keep the drill centered would be needed. If all else fails, ask ZAC about opening the holes to 1/4 inch. Using the method as above. That would allow the holes to be drilled together, thus in alignment. And get the correct bolts to fit. Just another way to do it. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:33 AM PST US From: "Dan knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron trim anti-servo tab --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" I guess you're right. A "boost tab" is another name for an anti-servo tab. No rumour. I am basing this on 24 hours of flying my plane. I put on a fixed tab but it wasn't big enough. I found that after about a half hour of holding right aileron I had to change hands due to fatigue. I could hold it up with rudder but then I was flying sideways. It really needs a powered/adjustable tab. I suppose power really wouldn't be necessary, but I think it would be nice to be able to adjust it from the cockpit. I don't want too much boost because I'd like to be able to fly hands off. What I'm planning to do is to start with a long lever on the tab and if it needs more boost I could shorten it. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron trim anti-servo tab > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" > > >I am considering putting in an anti-servo tab as aileron trim. > > Dan, what you're proposing is called a boost tab if it's what I think you're describing. It's found on aerobatic a/c but usually on the elevator. I've used them on 1/4 and 1/3 scale RC a/c. > > >that the aileron forces are quite a bit heavier with the "elastically > hinged ailerons". > > Are you basing this on your completed and flying a/c or just on the popular rumor that infests this list? > > >Another advantage would be to be able to mount the servo inside the wing > instead of inside the aileron. > > To my knowledge it doesn't require a servo, just linkage that moves the tab opposite the surface to which it is attached; at least that's how all versions I've seen and installed have worked. > > jeff > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:22 AM PST US From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" David I would recommend you stay with what the plans call for in lenth of aileron trim. And you will only need it on the left wing. I have never had to use it in a trim up position.Only down. the amount of deflection detemind by weight and distribution of fuel and passengers. That has been my experience for what it's worth dave kubassek C-FDSF XL 0235 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Barth" Subject: Zenith-List: aileron trim > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > A question for all of you who use aileron trim. Do > you ending up using both left and right trim? or Do > you primarily use just one side. I am looking at > using a trim system that has just .5 inches instead of > the .7 inches specified by the plans for the XL. I > was wondering if all that travel could be used in one > direction (going from neutral to full in one direction > only) > > Anyone have any thoughts to share on this? Thanks > for your assistance. > > > david > > ===== > David Barth > 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? > Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting > > > __________________________________ > http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:26 AM PST US From: "Dirk Slabbert" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Suzuki 1.3L 4 cyl 8 valve in a 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" Well Jim, info on the BMW R1100 RS seems a bit vague, saw one installation ( 701) on the Zenair engines photo section, but cannot trace the owner. Other info on this engine looks perfect, it's also 60% oil cooled, 40 % aircooled, same as the 912. It makes sense to say this engine has less moving parts, less heat generation. Therefor putting it in a cowl would'nt cause overheating anymore. The torgue curve is also impressive, after all thats what swings the prop. Digital ignition, 4 plugs, feul injection as standard, power to weight, are all features to keep in mind. It delivers 90 hp continious, instead of just 5 mins, like the 912. Does anyone have more info on this installation ? Thanks, Dirk 701 Kit builder. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Fosse To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Suzuki 1.3L 4 cyl 8 valve in a 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Fosse" It's a long way from home (Poland) but you might want to take a look at www.bilsamaviation.com-engine. Their Suzuki conversion has a gear redrive. Question for Dirk. Where is the info for the BMW? Jim Fosse ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Slabbert" To: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Suzuki 1.3L 4 cyl 8 valve in a 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" Had a look at that too, but for some reason or another I'm not so happy with a belt redrive and radiators. Have you ever thought about the R1100 RS BMW engine? 100 HP continious, feul injected, easy on petrol, very reliable etc? This installation should be lighter or the same weight as the 912, and a bit cheaper too, also comes with a geared redrive. Dirk. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Roberts To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 6:33 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Suzuki 1.3L 4 cyl 8 valve in a 701? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts From all I can pull from the digest, this combo will work for a 701: Suzuki 1.3L 4 cyl 8 valve engine with redrive from Cleo or Raven and engine mount from Raven. Fraction of the price of a 912. Is anybody flying this setup? Thanks in advance, Rick --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:05 AM PST US From: Rick Roberts Subject: Zenith-List: Does this work well? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts RiveDrill The patented RiveDrill converts your electric or pneumatic drill into a powerful blind riveter. Its innovative design allows you to set up to 14 rivets per minute - twice as many as can be set by standard hand tools. RiveDrill will pull up to 3/16 aluminum or 5/32" steel rivets. The optional Anaconda Attachment secures the RiveDrill to your cordless drill (as shown above) for one-handed operation. Does not include drill. No. SB110 No. SB110A .......Rive-Drill........ .......Anaconda........ $52.95 buy $26.95 buy --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:05 AM PST US From: Bill Cardell Subject: Zenith-List: slow day on the list, --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Cardell so I thought I'd throw this out: http://www.coollizard.com/pages/products.htm I just spotted this in Performance Racing Mag, might have some good apps on our planes? Stratus/HD/75% Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad) bill@flyinmiata.com Flyin' Miata 1-800-359-6957 (sales only) 970-242-3800 (tech support) http://flyinmiata.com http://flyinprotege.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:42 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Does this work well? (RiveDrill) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hello, Rick I have been using a rivedrill for a while now. It works well, but it is not pneumatic. Also, the smallest head they have is good for A5 rivets. They don't have one that fits the A4 (although they will sell you one supposed to fit the A4 - but it does not, I did buy it). Carlos HD601-HD, plans > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts > > RiveDrill > The patented RiveDrill converts your electric or pneumatic drill into a powerful blind riveter. > Its innovative design allows you to set up to 14 rivets per minute - twice as many as can be set > by standard hand tools. RiveDrill will pull up to 3/16 aluminum or 5/32" steel rivets. The > optional Anaconda Attachment secures the RiveDrill to your cordless drill (as shown above) for > one-handed operation. Does not include drill. > No. SB110 > No. SB110A .......Rive-Drill........ > .......Anaconda........ > $52.95 buy > > $26.95 buy ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:24 AM PST US From: "Dan knezacek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron trim --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan knezacek" Dave, My plans are an older issue and no aileron trim specs are included. What do your plans say about aileron trim? Size, location, etc? Thanks Dan CH-601 HD EA81 Soob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Kubassek" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron trim > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" > > David > I would recommend you stay with what the plans call for in lenth of aileron > trim. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:33 PM PST US From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" So the English Summer has arrived, and now we have this problem too. CH601HDS with Rotax 912ULS running on 100LL Avgas. Mechanical fuel pump and electric pump in parallel. In line filters on the tank side of each pump. Electric pump normally only used for starting. No fuel vapour return line (yet). Carbs recently set up and balanced by Rotax dealer. Plugs set to 20 thou. Cold start is instant. Outside ambient maybe 65 -70 deg F. Engine runs perfectly in flight. Shut down for 20 minutes and it starts with no problem. However if we shut down and leave aircraft either in hangar or outside for 2-3 hours, starting becomes almost impossible. All combinations of throttle, choke, scavenge it, etc etc. Eventually when you think the battery is going to give in it just about coughs into life. One noticeable point is that when it is in this condition, if you switch on the electric fuel pump it buzzes awy to itself, whereas normally it just clicks once and stops. Presumably this means it is either pumping air or vapour or is shifting a lot of liquid. Any ideas guys? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" > > thanks Richard, Dave, Frank and Rick. Doesn't seem to be ignition related. Changed plug gaps to .020. No help. Let me give a better description of my problem. Engine starts fine when cool. Runs great, full power climbing as long as you can stand it. In flight, current weather, 4000 r.p.m.. temps stabilize around 180 water and oil. If you land and shut down, will not start at all using any combination of inputs. choke/no choke (enricher). Throttle /no throttle. cussing/praying. boost pump/no boost. After 30 minute cool down starts fine. > If you land and let idle for 10 or so minutes, (I know this is not good for engine, but has been part of trying to find problem) when you take off, r.p.m. will drop off around 3500 or 4000 and engine won't make full power. sometimes will die completely. To simulate this on ground I let idle until temps got to around 200 oil and 225 water. Advance throttle and engine stumbles around 3500. Doing mag check during stumble causes no change, so I'm thinking this rules out ignition.? Boost pump causes slight but not much smoother running. Shut off engine. Do immediate infrared temperature check of carb float bowls, get reading of 170 F. Pull bowls of right after removing top cowl, bowls are both at proper level. Running 92 octane mogas. Ambient temp lately in the high 70's. > I'm out of ideas and will try anything. Thanks. > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:17 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Not knowing the specifics of the Rotax install but I would bet the pump is vapour locked. During the 2-3 hour shutdown the fuel has evaporated from the floatbowls and mechanical fuel pump. Is the electric fuel pump high on the firewall?......Risky in my opinion to have fuel sucked up hill at all but you are at less risk on 100LL...Yes this effect can happen is flight and hard starting becomes the least of your worries. But anyway, I would make sure the electric pump is mounted down low (either pump won't suck vapour) and if it has wing tanks only I would get two facet pumps, one at the outlet of each tank...its cooler there anyway and will not evaporate the fuel in the first place. As long as the pump has liquid in it, it will push any vapour in the line in the engine compartment thru the floatbowls. That's my guess as to whats happening...IMHO (hey I'm a professional engineer how humble is that?...:)...) vapour return lines are trying to bandaid a bad system design. I know I'm gonna get flamed but so be it.... Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard McLachlan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" --> So the English Summer has arrived, and now we have this problem too. CH601HDS with Rotax 912ULS running on 100LL Avgas. Mechanical fuel pump and electric pump in parallel. In line filters on the tank side of each pump. Electric pump normally only used for starting. No fuel vapour return line (yet). Carbs recently set up and balanced by Rotax dealer. Plugs set to 20 thou. Cold start is instant. Outside ambient maybe 65 -70 deg F. Engine runs perfectly in flight. Shut down for 20 minutes and it starts with no problem. However if we shut down and leave aircraft either in hangar or outside for 2-3 hours, starting becomes almost impossible. All combinations of throttle, choke, scavenge it, etc etc. Eventually when you think the battery is going to give in it just about coughs into life. One noticeable point is that when it is in this condition, if you switch on the electric fuel pump it buzzes awy to itself, whereas normally it just clicks once and stops. Presumably this means it is either pumping air or vapour or is shifting a lot of liquid. Any ideas guys? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" > --> > > thanks Richard, Dave, Frank and Rick. Doesn't seem to be ignition > related. Changed plug gaps to .020. No help. Let me give a better description of my problem. Engine starts fine when cool. Runs great, full power climbing as long as you can stand it. In flight, current weather, 4000 r.p.m.. temps stabilize around 180 water and oil. If you land and shut down, will not start at all using any combination of inputs. choke/no choke (enricher). Throttle /no throttle. cussing/praying. boost pump/no boost. After 30 minute cool down starts fine. > If you land and let idle for 10 or so minutes, (I know this is not good for engine, but has been part of trying to find problem) when you take off, r.p.m. will drop off around 3500 or 4000 and engine won't make full power. sometimes will die completely. To simulate this on ground I let idle until temps got to around 200 oil and 225 water. Advance throttle and engine stumbles around 3500. Doing mag check during stumble causes no change, so I'm thinking this rules out ignition.? Boost pump causes slight but not much smoother running. Shut off engine. Do immediate infrared temperature check of carb float bowls, get reading of 170 F. Pull bowls of right after removing top cowl, bowls are both at proper level. Running 92 octane mogas. Ambient temp lately in the high 70's. > I'm out of ideas and will try anything. Thanks. > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:32 PM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Incidently you can test this theory... Take a funnel and a 1/4 rubber hose. When hot and you know it won't start...full off the supply hose to the electric pump and plug it with a bolt or something from te tank. Connect your rubber hose and funnel....pour gas into the funnel and turn on the electric pump...I bet it primes and stops clicking as normal...the engine will then fire instantly.......Be careful with all that petrol sloshing about!!! FRank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard McLachlan Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" --> So the English Summer has arrived, and now we have this problem too. CH601HDS with Rotax 912ULS running on 100LL Avgas. Mechanical fuel pump and electric pump in parallel. In line filters on the tank side of each pump. Electric pump normally only used for starting. No fuel vapour return line (yet). Carbs recently set up and balanced by Rotax dealer. Plugs set to 20 thou. Cold start is instant. Outside ambient maybe 65 -70 deg F. Engine runs perfectly in flight. Shut down for 20 minutes and it starts with no problem. However if we shut down and leave aircraft either in hangar or outside for 2-3 hours, starting becomes almost impossible. All combinations of throttle, choke, scavenge it, etc etc. Eventually when you think the battery is going to give in it just about coughs into life. One noticeable point is that when it is in this condition, if you switch on the electric fuel pump it buzzes awy to itself, whereas normally it just clicks once and stops. Presumably this means it is either pumping air or vapour or is shifting a lot of liquid. Any ideas guys? Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Koonce" Subject: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" > --> > > thanks Richard, Dave, Frank and Rick. Doesn't seem to be ignition > related. Changed plug gaps to .020. No help. Let me give a better description of my problem. Engine starts fine when cool. Runs great, full power climbing as long as you can stand it. In flight, current weather, 4000 r.p.m.. temps stabilize around 180 water and oil. If you land and shut down, will not start at all using any combination of inputs. choke/no choke (enricher). Throttle /no throttle. cussing/praying. boost pump/no boost. After 30 minute cool down starts fine. > If you land and let idle for 10 or so minutes, (I know this is not good for engine, but has been part of trying to find problem) when you take off, r.p.m. will drop off around 3500 or 4000 and engine won't make full power. sometimes will die completely. To simulate this on ground I let idle until temps got to around 200 oil and 225 water. Advance throttle and engine stumbles around 3500. Doing mag check during stumble causes no change, so I'm thinking this rules out ignition.? Boost pump causes slight but not much smoother running. Shut off engine. Do immediate infrared temperature check of carb float bowls, get reading of 170 F. Pull bowls of right after removing top cowl, bowls are both at proper level. Running 92 octane mogas. Ambient temp lately in the high 70's. > I'm out of ideas and will try anything. Thanks. > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot From: --> Zenith-List message posted by: On my 912, once the engine is hot, I use no choke at all. It starts instantly w/o starting carb when hot. GGP ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:06 PM PST US From: "Jackie B. Johnson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jackie B. Johnson" Guarantee it's vapor lock..mine will do same thing if I don't remember to open oil access door on stopping,( so hot air can get out)..yes, it's insulated..fuel press gage reads nothing till it cools down, or finally get a surge of cool fuel, then it comes up to press and it's fine..usually goes to solid pressure once fuel starts flowing..cranks fine then..Doesn't do it as much on 100LL as auto gas.. Jackie N5JZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > So the English Summer has arrived, and now we have this problem too. > CH601HDS with Rotax 912ULS running on 100LL Avgas. Mechanical fuel pump and > electric pump in parallel. In line filters on the tank side of each pump. > Electric pump normally only used for starting. No fuel vapour return line > (yet). Carbs recently set up and balanced by Rotax dealer. Plugs set to 20 > thou. > > Cold start is instant. Outside ambient maybe 65 -70 deg F. Engine runs > perfectly in flight. Shut down for 20 minutes and it starts with no problem. > However if we shut down and leave aircraft either in hangar or outside for > 2-3 hours, starting becomes almost impossible. All combinations of throttle, > choke, scavenge it, etc etc. Eventually when you think the battery is going > to give in it just about coughs into life. One noticeable point is that when > it is in this condition, if you switch on the electric fuel pump it buzzes > awy to itself, whereas normally it just clicks once and stops. Presumably > this means it is either pumping air or vapour or is shifting a lot of > liquid. > > Any ideas guys? > > Richard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ronnie Koonce" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: 912 hard start when hot > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ronnie Koonce" > > > > thanks Richard, Dave, Frank and Rick. Doesn't seem to be ignition related. > Changed plug gaps to .020. No help. Let me give a better description of my > problem. Engine starts fine when cool. Runs great, full power climbing as > long as you can stand it. In flight, current weather, 4000 r.p.m.. temps > stabilize around 180 water and oil. If you land and shut down, will not > start at all using any combination of inputs. choke/no choke (enricher). > Throttle /no throttle. cussing/praying. boost pump/no boost. After 30 minute > cool down starts fine. > > If you land and let idle for 10 or so minutes, (I know this is not > good for engine, but has been part of trying to find problem) when you take > off, r.p.m. will drop off around 3500 or 4000 and engine won't make full > power. sometimes will die completely. To simulate this on ground I let idle > until temps got to around 200 oil and 225 water. Advance throttle and engine > stumbles around 3500. Doing mag check during stumble causes no change, so > I'm thinking this rules out ignition.? Boost pump causes slight but not much > smoother running. Shut off engine. Do immediate infrared temperature check > of carb float bowls, get reading of 170 F. Pull bowls of right after > removing top cowl, bowls are both at proper level. Running 92 octane mogas. > Ambient temp lately in the high 70's. > > I'm out of ideas and will try anything. Thanks. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:14 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Gross Weight? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair A quick, and hopefully simple question. What was the published gross weight of the 701 prior to the 1100 lb. SP update? I've checked my drawings (dated 1986) and the manual and the only thing I find is 900 lbs. I'm sure I've seen something like 976 but cannot find something solid. Zenith now only shows 1100. Thanks for any help as to a good source to be able to show to the DAR. Mike Sinclair N701TD soon to fly