Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: 701 CG Question (Dirk Slabbert)
2. 04:40 AM - Re: 701 CG Question (Don & Jo Gordon)
3. 05:25 AM - XL front side skins position? (DEGlass1@aol.com)
4. 07:34 AM - Re: 701 CG Question (Ken Szewc)
5. 09:00 AM - kitplanes article (David Barth)
6. 09:21 AM - Re: 701 CG Question (Graham Kirby)
7. 11:12 AM - Re: kitplanes article (Larry McFarland)
8. 11:33 AM - Re: kitplanes article (Cory Emberson)
9. 12:47 PM - Re: XL front side skins position? (Rico Voss)
10. 05:13 PM - Top mounted senders (Bob Gibfried)
11. 05:27 PM - Re: Top mounted senders (Joemotis@aol.com)
12. 06:47 PM - Re: Top mounted senders (Scott Laughlin)
13. 08:46 PM - Re: Top mounted senders (Chuck Deiterich)
14. 10:08 PM - Re: Top mounted senders (Joemotis@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 CG Question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
Mike,
Basic theory is the more aft the CG the closer it gets to aircraft neutral point,
which in turn means a smaller static margin.
Which indicates a more unsteady aircraft, this to me sort of defies the meaning
of he 701, for it was designed to fly slow and be quite controlable at low speed.
I would ditch the BRS and keep the plane well within its limits. The last thing
you need is an unpredictable airplane.
Chances are you'll never need the BRS, if you keep it, well you may need it, but
too close to ground for it to do you any good.
Dirk.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Sinclair
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 2:54 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 CG Question
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Hey Guys
Hoping for an answer from someone that has a 701 where the CG is in the aft
range. Zenith lists a limit of 10-18 in. aft of datum. Mine is a taildragger
and
has a BRS mounted in the forward portion of the baggage compartment (basically
no baggage capacity left, unless it goes in the right seat). My CG is coming
in
at 16-17 in. aft through most scenarios. The worst case one that I could work
up
so far involved starting out with the 6 gal. header tank only being full and
a
240# passenger to bring it up to 1100. Still right around 17 inches aft, but
when it runs out of gas the CG shifts to 17.9 aft. Just .1 ahead of the aft
design limit (don't see myself getting near this situation, but still was
playing with the numbers to see where it could get). Have any of you had
experience with a plane that is balancing to the rear of the limit. and what
performance problems might be expected. I am already aware that I will have to
be very sensitive about airspeed to avoid a departure or approach stall. Would
just like to hear if others have experienced any other downsides to an aft CG
in
this airplane. Hoping that there is some cushion built into the design in this
area and performance at lower speeds isn't depreciated significantly. With some
major rework I can shave a couple more pounds out of the tailwheel assy. Other
than that I would have to ditch the BRS and really don't want to go there.
Thanks
Mike Sinclair
Augusta, Ks
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 701 CG Question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don & Jo Gordon" <djgordon@bigpond.net.au>
maybe .1 from aft limit but consider worst case senario what would be the
result if a water hose blew and you lost you water in you engine you didn't
notice the temp rise till 2 late and the engine quite also loosing all it's
oil. now you have no water no oil out front and now you CG is right out the
back your in deep shit and no where to go
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sinclair" <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 CG Question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> Hey Guys
>
> Hoping for an answer from someone that has a 701 where the CG is in the
aft
> range. Zenith lists a limit of 10-18 in. aft of datum. Mine is a
taildragger and
> has a BRS mounted in the forward portion of the baggage compartment
(basically
> no baggage capacity left, unless it goes in the right seat). My CG is
coming in
> at 16-17 in. aft through most scenarios. The worst case one that I could
work up
> so far involved starting out with the 6 gal. header tank only being full
and a
> 240# passenger to bring it up to 1100. Still right around 17 inches aft,
but
> when it runs out of gas the CG shifts to 17.9 aft. Just .1 ahead of the
aft
> design limit (don't see myself getting near this situation, but still was
> playing with the numbers to see where it could get). Have any of you had
> experience with a plane that is balancing to the rear of the limit. and
what
> performance problems might be expected. I am already aware that I will
have to
> be very sensitive about airspeed to avoid a departure or approach stall.
Would
> just like to hear if others have experienced any other downsides to an aft
CG in
> this airplane. Hoping that there is some cushion built into the design in
this
> area and performance at lower speeds isn't depreciated significantly. With
some
> major rework I can shave a couple more pounds out of the tailwheel assy.
Other
> than that I would have to ditch the BRS and really don't want to go there.
> Thanks
>
> Mike Sinclair
> Augusta, Ks
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | XL front side skins position? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com
To those who have built the XL fuse:
I'm not sure why I'm having so much trouble being comfortable with this positioning
- if you have a photo that shows the amount of overlap of the bottom aft
end of the front side skins 6B11-2 and rear side skins (where the attach plate
exits), please send it to me off-list.
Maybe this is over-caution before I make the spar and gear channel cutouts.
Thanks for all the good scoop from the List!
David Glass
XL - building the fuselage, more slowly than planned
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 701 CG Question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Szewc <szewc@direcway.com>
Mike,
The weight and balance report from zenith shows a CG range of 11 to 20
inches or 280 to 500mm. I have just performed a weight and balance for my
701SP and it easily fell into the range at 12.75 inches or 324mm. However
mine is not a taildragger and I do not have a BRS. It's hard to say where
you issue lies without comparing apples to apples. I have a 912ULS installed
and the basic panel with Microair radio and transponder with a rather heavy
(26lb) battery 26AH oddyssey battery located behind the passenger seat. I
also have all of the options (trim, tanks, strobes, bbl doors) except the
folding wings. All of this came in at 650lbs. You didn't mention where your
battery is located. I would say that if your battery is anywhere behind the
CG then it should be moved foward as far as possible. I have seen pictures
where two batteries were installed on the shelf in the engine compartment to
keep the weight foward.
I would recommend calling Zenith to see if other tail dragger configurations
have had issues also.
Ken Szewc
701SP 912ULS (inspection tomorrow)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sinclair" <mike.sinclair@att.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 CG Question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair <mike.sinclair@att.net>
>
> Hey Guys
>
> Hoping for an answer from someone that has a 701 where the CG is in the
aft
> range. Zenith lists a limit of 10-18 in. aft of datum. Mine is a
taildragger and
> has a BRS mounted in the forward portion of the baggage compartment
(basically
> no baggage capacity left, unless it goes in the right seat). My CG is
coming in
> at 16-17 in. aft through most scenarios. The worst case one that I could
work up
> so far involved starting out with the 6 gal. header tank only being full
and a
> 240# passenger to bring it up to 1100. Still right around 17 inches aft,
but
> when it runs out of gas the CG shifts to 17.9 aft. Just .1 ahead of the
aft
> design limit (don't see myself getting near this situation, but still was
> playing with the numbers to see where it could get). Have any of you had
> experience with a plane that is balancing to the rear of the limit. and
what
> performance problems might be expected. I am already aware that I will
have to
> be very sensitive about airspeed to avoid a departure or approach stall.
Would
> just like to hear if others have experienced any other downsides to an aft
CG in
> this airplane. Hoping that there is some cushion built into the design in
this
> area and performance at lower speeds isn't depreciated significantly. With
some
> major rework I can shave a couple more pounds out of the tailwheel assy.
Other
> than that I would have to ditch the BRS and really don't want to go there.
> Thanks
>
> Mike Sinclair
> Augusta, Ks
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | kitplanes article |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Hi List.
There is a great article in kitplanes about panel
designs and our very own Larry McFarland is featured
there. Nice job Larry! It really looks like you did
a lot of work for the author of the article so I hope
he paid you.
David
=====
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
__________________________________
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Message 6
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" <gkirby@yahoo.com>
Mike,
I remember reading that one of the earlier builders in the UK took care of a
similar problem on a 601 by moving the engine forward a little.
Given the weight of the engine it may be as simple as adding spacers between
the firewall and engine mount.
Of course, something like this is definitely worth chatting to ZAC about.
Graham Kirby (601HD)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: kitplanes article |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: kitplanes article
It really looks like you did
> a lot of work for the author of the article so I hope
> he paid you.
> David Barth
David,
Pleased you liked the article, but not everything today is about money
as I wouldn't accept any payment for this.
It was expected to be condensed to a couple of paragraphs
and as submitted, too much was written in the first person. I'm only
6-ft tall, not 6'-4" and some very minor things were redundant.
But I hope it provides some nutrition to those yet considering that
area of their plane.
Larry McFarland
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: kitplanes article |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" <bootless@earthlink.net>
Hi Larry,
Thanks for pointing out that you hadn't experienced a mid-life growth spurt!
Sorry about that!
I enjoyed corresponding with you about your panel, and was really pleased
that the editor left your compliments about the Zenith Matronics list
intact!
best, Cory
> David,
> Pleased you liked the article, but not everything today is about money
> as I wouldn't accept any payment for this.
> It was expected to be condensed to a couple of paragraphs
> and as submitted, too much was written in the first person. I'm only
> 6-ft tall, not 6'-4" and some very minor things were redundant.
> But I hope it provides some nutrition to those yet considering that
> area of their plane.
>
> Larry McFarland
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Subject: Zenith-List: kitplanes article
>
>
> It really looks like you did
> > a lot of work for the author of the article so I hope
> > he paid you.
> > David Barth
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: XL front side skins position? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
--- DEGlass1@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com
>
> To those who have built the XL fuse:
> I'm not sure why I'm having so much trouble being
> comfortable with this positioning - if you have a
> photo that shows the amount of overlap of the bottom
> aft end of the front side skins 6B11-2 and rear side
> skins
David --
The short answer is that somewhere (photo maunal?) it
is written to overlap the skins 35mm -- make sure it's
at the bottom, as there is less overlap there on the
pre-cut skins. I assumed that would be enough and
went on.
To position the rear channel, I was advised to place
it using the wing jigs, instead of the dimension given
(235mm or something). So, first I made the sideskin
cutout for the spar inserts, then mounted and leveled
the wing jigs, then marked and cut the slots for the
rear channel attach plates, which leads to the
position of the rear channel. Assuming that the wing
jigs are accurate, it should work.
I, too, am cursed with the desire to do things
accurately, and it aint easy with the numerous errors
and omissions in the documentation. I labored as you
did over the angle of incidence, but so far, all looks
OK. As you did, I had to put a shim (.040 I think)
under the rear flange of the center spar, in order to
make it sit at 78 deg from the floor (81 from horiz).
When I measured carefully, I found one center spar
flange was bent at 78, one at 81 -- ??? . [please
keep me away from that soapbox...]
Good luck,
Rico, XL, working (too slowly) on fwd fuse, in KC
__________________________________
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Top mounted senders |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried" <rfg842@cox.net>
Would sure be nice if we could get a drawing or pictures of the top mounted
fuel sender installation.
Any chance of an email attachment from one or more of those who have done
it?
Thanks
Bob, Wichita
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Top mounted senders |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
Here is one (of a top mounted sensor) on a 601 XL
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_5_04_WingTank.JPG
Joe Motis
601 XL
Do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Top mounted senders |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
----Original Message Follows----
From: Joemotis@aol.com
Here is one (of a top mounted sensor) on a 601 XL
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_5_04_WingTank.JPG
Wow! I've seen that before. Somewhere......
Scott Laughlin
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Top mounted senders |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" <cfd@thegateway.net>
My sender and tank installation is on my website look under Airplane,
www.geocities.com/cffd66
Chuck D.
N701TX
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Gibfried" <rfg842@cox.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Top mounted senders
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Gibfried" <rfg842@cox.net>
>
> Would sure be nice if we could get a drawing or pictures of the top
mounted
> fuel sender installation.
>
> Any chance of an email attachment from one or more of those who have done
> it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bob, Wichita
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Top mounted senders |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
I am sorry Scott!
I forgot to give credit to you.Great site!!!
Joe Motis
Do not archive
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