---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/07/04: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: spring loaded rods (jnbolding1) 2. 06:20 AM - Re: Rudder twist (Larry McFarland) 3. 06:50 AM - RE, corvair lifter adjustment (roy vickski) 4. 06:50 AM - RE, spring loaded rods (roy vickski) 5. 06:54 AM - RE, spring loaded rods (roy vickski) 6. 07:44 AM - Re: spring loaded rods (Larry Martin) 7. 08:40 AM - Re: Rudder twist (Lawrence Webber) 8. 08:50 AM - Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Peter Mather) 9. 08:51 AM - Re: Preflight experience (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 10. 09:10 AM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (DEGlass1@aol.com) 11. 09:37 AM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Chuck Deiterich) 12. 09:54 AM - Rotax 912ULS instalation. (Mark Sherman) 13. 09:59 AM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)) 14. 10:02 AM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Thomas F Marson) 15. 10:07 AM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Thomas F Marson) 16. 10:36 AM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Leo J. Corbalis) 17. 11:05 AM - Re: Preflight experience (Larry McFarland) 18. 11:49 AM - Zodiac XL (Mike H) 19. 12:40 PM - 601HD AIRFRAME FOR SALE (Dave Pepper) 20. 12:53 PM - Zodiac XL Components for sale (David Eckhart) 21. 01:40 PM - 701 gross weight & CG questions (Mike Sinclair) 22. 02:31 PM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Al Young) 23. 03:18 PM - Re: Zodiac XL (wizard-24@juno.com) 24. 06:34 PM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Jeff Small) 25. 09:24 PM - Re: Question on setting valve lifters (paulvanmunster@bigpond.com) 26. 09:42 PM - Re: Zodiac XL Components for sale (Brett) 27. 10:04 PM - Re: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? (Greg Ferris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:52 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: spring loaded rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" - >i have been flamed before for being honest but here goes anyway. the workmanship looks >great but you have changed a simple design that i feel is going to cause a potential >for distorted rudder horn. when you push hard on the brakes the rudder cables tighten >slightly but the brunt of the force is taken by the two rods going to the strut on the >origional design. this stops the pedals from moving and applies the hyd brake >cylinders. with your design the rudder cables will see hard pulling on both cables at >once when you try to apply the brakes and those nice springs let both pedals go forward >at once. given enough cycles you will surely pull the rivets loose off the rudder horn. >in fact a good hard application during run up could end up with a disconnected rudder. No flames just an observation, If one chose the taildragger version the rods would not be there at all, my taildragger drawings don't show any mod to the control horn just because there is no nosewheel rod . LOW&SLOW John Bolding ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:29 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder twist --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: Rudder twist > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joseph Kerr" > > Hi List- > I have all the holes drilled out to #30 on my rudder skin (not yet riveted), but it seems I've introduced some twist somewhere. My guess is the leading edge skin and its 'springiness' pushed the spar a little off the front beam. The bottom of the trailing edge is 12 to 15 mm out of alignment with the top of the trailing edge. What do you all think--Scrap the rudder? > --Joe Joe, I had something of the same problem with ailerons. I drilled out the rivets, clecoed again and while holding a little opposite tension, began the riveting again, same size. It worked fine. Try it. You've nothing to loose. Larry McFarland - 601HDS ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:06 AM PST US From: roy vickski Subject: Zenith-List: RE, corvair lifter adjustment --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski Greg, The engine has hydrolic lifters, which by design are zero lash (clearance while running). There are two ways to adjust. One way is with the engine running which is messy. The other as explained by ww is how I have also done it over the years with excellent results. On a 4 stroke engine the piston is at tdc (top dead center)2 times during the cycle, once on the firing stroke and once on the intake stroke. The intake stroke happens right after the exhaust stroke and is also called valve rockover (both valves are open at the same time) The piston Must be on the top of the firing stroke to adjust the lash for that set of lifters. Notice the hole in the side of the lifter, this is where the oil enters to pump up the hydrolic element of the lifter. Push on the top of the lifter where the push rod indentation is and notice any movement. If you have no movement then the lifter is considered "pumped up", if you have springy movement then it is considered "collapsed" Near the halfway point of the range of travel of the element in a collapsed lifter is considered the proper adjustment point. This equates to 1/4 to 1/2 turn of the rocker stud nut. How to get there. 1. Cylinder that you want to adjust the valves on must be at TDC FIRING STROKE, rotate crankshaft and observe pushrod for Intake valve rocker, when pushrod decends and stops (use your fingers to push it in while rotating crank) continue rotating crankshaft approx, 150 - 170 degrees and watch throught sparkplug hole for the piston to reach the top of the stroke. 2. Tighten rocker nut while grasping pushrod, move the pushrod in and out while tightening nut. 3. When you can no longer move the pushrod in and out with very, very light force you are at the top of the lifter element travel, continue tightening nut 1/4 to 1/2 turn and you are there. 4. Repeat on the other rocker for that cylinder. 5. Bring the next cylinder in firing order up to TDC firing stroke and repeat the process from step 1. Probably a little long winded and more than most wanted to know, but I've always appreciated the why and how of things mechanical, so there you have it. Roy 701sp plans __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:41 AM PST US From: roy vickski Subject: Zenith-List: RE, spring loaded rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski I agree. Nice forward thinking, you make a valid and excellent observation. Changes to the design must be thought through and proved out. Roy 701sp plans __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:09 AM PST US From: roy vickski Subject: Zenith-List: RE, spring loaded rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski Dave, I agree. Nice forward thinking, you make a valid and excellent observation. Impications to changes of the design must be thought through and proved out. Roy 701sp plans __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:50 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: spring loaded rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Dave C, I don't think you quite understand how it works. The tension on the springs is adjusted so as the rudder cables are tight at maximum compression of the springs and slightly loose at no compression. Not over tightened as you suggest, just tight. In fact they cannot be over tightened, you are bottomed out against the rods. There is no more pull on the rudder cables regardless of how hard you push on the petals. You in affect have solid rods at this point. The benefit is that the springs allows you to have some rudder in flight without front wheel turning until you push harder. If adjusted correctly, the front wheel will not turn in flight, but will turn on the ground when rolling. You adjust the tension by pushing the petal while sitting still to it's max without turning the front wheel, then with a little roll the front wheel kicks in. I have seen many posts of people complaining about having to fight the front wheel while holding a little rudder. This setup will help that problem. This setup has been used on all RAF-2000 gyroplanes (500+) for many years without ever losing a rudder because of rudder horn failure. There was on guy who died because of rudder failure, but the cause was the turnbuckle failed because the builder put it together using only four treads in one side. Thus is why I always replace the turnbuckles a few flights and adjustments with solid plates. Checking the rudder horn, and all cable parts for any looseness or signs of movement/wear should/must be part of each and every pre-flight inspection. Larry N1345L ----- Original Message ----- From: Chesterman Family To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Zenith-List: spring loaded rods --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chesterman Family i have been flamed before for being honest but here goes anyway. the workmanship looks great but you have changed a simple design that i feel is going to cause a potential for distorted rudder horn. when you push hard on the brakes the rudder cables tighten slightly but the brunt of the force is taken by the two rods going to the strut on the origional design. this stops the pedals from moving and applies the hyd brake cylinders. with your design the rudder cables will see hard pulling on both cables at once when you try to apply the brakes and those nice springs let both pedals go forward at once. given enough cycles you will surely pull the rivets loose off the rudder horn. in fact a good hard application during run up could end up with a disconnected rudder. dave c 701 completed and flying since 97 > o S --- Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:44 AM PST US From: "Lawrence Webber" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rudder twist --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lawrence Webber" If the rudder isnt straight use this piece to play with to learn what step caused the error incidentelly there are a lot of rudder kits out there that you can buy but i think you should find why before proceeding to next component to assemble keep us posted on your progress . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:02 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" Apologies if this topic has been done to death before. I'm just about to start the build of an XL in the UK and want to decide on the engine. Being the UK its much easier to to get approval with a standard engine rather than a conversion so I'm limited to the Rotax and Jabiru. The pros and cons as I see them are: Rotax Pro: Overall cost Fuel consumption Cons: Reliability? Jabiru Pro: Dedicated Aircraft engine Ease of installation Additional power Con: Difficult to prop to make use of power Fuel consumption I would really appreciate feedback from those who have been there before including real world performance Best regards Peter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:21 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Preflight experience --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Larry, The only comment here is that a 90mph approach is a little fast for my HDS. The point is here is I am not sure who has the calibrated ASI...I have compared my ASI with another aircraft in flight (an RV-4 just before he used me for drone target practice) but that's as far as it goes. I find an 80mph approach more appropriate and would "expect" the HD to want to go a little slower. On the odd occasion doing 90 mph approach I find I would use a LOT more runway. The main thing is you have a great feel for the flare on landing which will set you up well for the first flight. The 601 is remarkably good at rough and short field landings but you need to slow it down. When out in the booneys I can slow to 70mph with ease and 65 for a real short (1100 feet) grass strip. But the decent rate is pretty alarming and requires a firm touch of power at flare. Have fun! Frank 601 Stratus with Ram heads 325 hours Hi guys, and goes. My initial approach amounted to a steep diving glide to a flare and a solid touch down. But after some patient coaching, I was able to decend while holding 90 at 2500 rpm and then round out a flare that resulted in a reasonably good touchdown. _ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:29 AM PST US From: DEGlass1@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com Has anyone considered the Jabiru 2200? It's the 80hp (at 3300rpm), 4-cyl, 132lb little bro of the 3300. The torque/horsepower curves cross at 2500rpm, 65hp. On www.jabiru.net.au, they claim to have an installation kit for the Zenair CH601 / CH701. For either an XL or a 701, isn't 80hp enough, especially if you're building as a light sport aircraft? It seems like this engine could be normally propped and pull an XL just fine, rather than de-propping a 3300 to keep the max speed down. It's lighter, and much less $$, than either the Rotax or Jab 3300. I'll be interested in your opinions - we haven't selected our powerplant package yet for the XL. David Glass ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:57 AM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" I like my 701 and Jabiru 2200 combination. http://www.geocities.com/cffd66/Airplane Chuck D. N701TX do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com > > Has anyone considered the Jabiru 2200? It's the 80hp (at 3300rpm), 4-cyl, 132lb little bro of the 3300. The torque/horsepower curves cross at 2500rpm, 65hp. On www.jabiru.net.au, they claim to have an installation kit for the Zenair CH601 / CH701. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:21 AM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith-List: Rotax 912ULS instalation. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman I'm at the point of ordering the engine for my 701 from Zenith. I have a friend building a 701 about 25 miles away and we are about at the same place in the building process. He is just installing the 912ULS and found that the air cleaners from Zenith do not fit the air box supplied by Rotax and no parts to hook up the carb heat to the air box. In a call to Zenith he was told that most people leave the air box off and just put the air cleaners directly on the carbs. Rotax is firm that if you want a true 100hp engine that you use the air box. I was amazed that Zenith doesn't supply the parts for the cold air intake or for carb heat. And no installation help either. (well, not that surprised). Has anyone who has installed the 100hp Rotax taken pictures of the installation of the air box or has everyone just put the air cleaners on the carbs and called it good enough? He has had his engine about three years now, but Zenith said they don't supply it any different now than then. Any help or pictures would be greatly appreciated. Mark S. CH701/912ULS __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:22 AM PST US From: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "HINDE,FRANK (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" One rumour that I heard was that Jab did all their dyno testing at below sea level....I know it sounds and the curves should be normalised for sea level anyway. But it may not quite make the power you want. The other thing to consider is power decreases a lot with density altitude. If you have to get over any high stuff this amy influence your decision. As to de-propping a Jab 3300, has anyone actually sucessfully done this?...You need a sufficient prop dia to "get around the fuse". This limits the speed. Last I heard the 3300 was a 100HP engine at real world prop speeds. Other than that the Jab 2200 should be similar in performance to the 80Hp Rotax. The 601 has been flying around quite sucessfully for a number of years with this motor. The XL "shouldn't be any different. Personally for the resale value and usabilty of the A/C I would find a bigger motor. Frank Stratus with ram heads 325 hours -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEGlass1@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com Has anyone considered the Jabiru 2200? It's the 80hp (at 3300rpm), 4-cyl, 132lb little bro of the 3300. The torque/horsepower curves cross at 2500rpm, 65hp. On www.jabiru.net.au, they claim to have an installation kit for the Zenair CH601 / CH701. For either an XL or a 701, isn't 80hp enough, especially if you're building as a light sport aircraft? It seems like this engine could be normally propped and pull an XL just fine, rather than de-propping a 3300 to keep the max speed down. It's lighter, and much less $$, than either the Rotax or Jab 3300. I'll be interested in your opinions - we haven't selected our powerplant package yet for the XL. David Glass advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:58 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" Peter, you will get lots of opinions. Here is my take and it may surprise you Jab 3300, Lots of guys report overheating problems, all do not. Many report it wont put out the advertised 120 hp many say they estimate 105-110 at best. Must swing a small diameter prop because blades go sonic. Max about 64 to 66 inches. Ok but need lots of pitch, ok but then you need a fast airplane for it to perform well. 601 is not fast enough airframe for it to work well. Need a plane of about 150 mph or more for optimum. 6cyl smooth sure Reliability?---- lots more experience with the 912 and 912S by far than the Jab 3300. geared drive of the 912S lets you swing a 70 to 72 inch ground adjustable best for takeoff and climb on airframe like the 601 XL Your statement of Dedicated aircraft engine as a plus for Jab 3300 implies this is a plus-------- How can it be a plus when they are still having teething problems and there are relatively few of them out yet. AND-- isnt the Rotax 912S a dedicated aircraft engine. Based on prop diameter alone and the size of the 601 airframe the 912S is by far the better choice. Next question---------- what about the Continentals or Lycomings? tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Mather" Subject: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" > > Apologies if this topic has been done to death before. > > I'm just about to start the build of an XL in the UK > and want to decide on the engine. Being the UK its much > easier to to get approval with a standard engine rather > than a conversion so I'm limited to the Rotax and > Jabiru. > > The pros and cons as I see them are: > > Rotax > Pro: > Overall cost > Fuel consumption > Cons: > Reliability? > > Jabiru > Pro: > Dedicated Aircraft engine > Ease of installation > Additional power > Con: > Difficult to prop to make use of power > Fuel consumption > > > I would really appreciate feedback from those who have > been there before including real world performance > > Best regards > > Peter > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:50 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" dont get hung up in specs. The 2200 with the small dia prop it needs will never be satisfactory on the XL. It is not even the engine of choice for the Sonex---a much smaller plane. But it does work there----just about like a VW. Would you think about putting a VW on the XL? If you think that is adaquate for the XL then the 2200 will be a good but double the cost option. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com > > Has anyone considered the Jabiru 2200? It's the 80hp (at 3300rpm), 4-cyl, 132lb little bro of the 3300. The torque/horsepower curves cross at 2500rpm, 65hp. On www.jabiru.net.au, they claim to have an installation kit for the Zenair CH601 / CH701. > For either an XL or a 701, isn't 80hp enough, especially if you're building as a light sport aircraft? It seems like this engine could be normally propped and pull an XL just fine, rather than de-propping a 3300 to keep the max speed down. It's lighter, and much less $$, than either the Rotax or Jab 3300. > > I'll be interested in your opinions - we haven't selected our powerplant package yet for the XL. > > David Glass > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:29 AM PST US From: "Leo J. Corbalis" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" > > > > Apologies if this topic has been done to death before. > > > > I'm just about to start the build of an XL in the UK > > and want to decide on the engine. Being the UK its much > > easier to to get approval with a standard engine rather > > than a conversion so I'm limited to the Rotax and > > Jabiru. > > > >I have a 601HDS with an 80 hp Rotax 912UL . I am flying with a WOODCOMP in-flight adjustable prop. This is like being able to shift gears. You will get more performance boost out of an in-flight adjustable than retractable wheeels! I can almost keep up with a friend with a 3300 with a fixed prop. He is in the process of installing a constant speed prop. Then I'll get blown away. Leo Corbalis ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:02 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Preflight experience --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > The 601 is remarkably good at rough and short field landings but you need to > slow it down. When out in the booneys I can slow to 70mph with ease and 65 > for a real short (1100 feet) grass strip. But the decent rate is pretty > alarming and requires a firm touch of power at flare. > > Have fun! > > Frank 601 Stratus with Ram heads 325 hours Frank, Because there were two in the HD, I had the sense that diving the plane low and slowing from 50 feet or so would enable a first flare with less risk. I'd just read your comment about the glide angle of a piano at below 70 that afternoon. The plane does have a decent rate that is very responsive to airspeed. It'll take some practice for me to work down into the slow approach for short fields. I think the HDS will float a little better with just me in it than a HD with two, so there's no anxiety about flying the bird. Larry McFarland 601HDS (to fly soon after the radio has a dependable volume) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:07 AM PST US From: "Mike H" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mike H" Hi group. I am new to this list and trying to find answers about the zodiac xl. Mainly simple questions like the average buiding time, realistic cruise ( with what engine?), what are pros and cons about the construction / manual / company support / difficulty building... etc. And, is there anyone that lives near the Wichita, KS area that is in the building process or finished. I would like to see one in person. My only experience building is the Challenger II with fabric covering. Thanks!! Mike H ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:08 PM PST US From: "Dave Pepper" Subject: Zenith-List: 601HD AIRFRAME FOR SALE 1.2 WHY_WAIT BODY: What are you waiting for 0.5 MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Pepper" Dear list, I sold my 912S and a few instruments. I have the completed airframe for sale. Tail installed; controls installed and connected; instrment panel installed but no instruments; wings have been installed but are crated for pickup; canopy frame installed but canopy bubble needs to be installed in the frame; 912S engine mount installed; brakes installed and connected (no fluid in lines); bottom radio antenna installed; bottom fuselage access panel; step installed; lots of hardware included. All manuals and plans for this plane, serial no. 6-2003. Aircraft was professionally built by an engineer in Canada, and passed its pre-cover inspection (not required in the US). Asking $11,500. Also have a Taskem 2000 encoding altimeter for $350. Please contact Dave at 800-514-6953 or email me at rockinrimranch@earthlink.net All the best to the builders on the list. Dave Pepper rockinrimranch@earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:31 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL Components for sale From: "David Eckhart" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Eckhart" I currently have for sale a completed tail kit for a Zodiac XL. Tail kit completed. One wing completed. Fuel system kit included. Get a jump start on your project, you pick up. Located in Joplin, MO. $7,500. david.eckhart@leggett.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:49 PM PST US From: Mike Sinclair Subject: Zenith-List: 701 gross weight & CG questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Sinclair Just want to thank all of you that replied both on list and off list with positive answers. Worked all the numbers, put 1100 on the data plate and the paperwork. Ran through the various weight configurations and CG stayed within limits. The DAR spent 4.5 hours here yesterday going over everything. N701TD has now been issued a Special Airworthiness Certificate. With no discrepancies listed! Rather appropriate on the date of inspection also, my plane is painted in a WWII invasion paint scheme (can see on Scott Laughlin's website "cooknwithgas.com") and received it's certificate on the 60th anniversary of the D-day invasion of Normandy. Going to get some tail wheel time and then hopefully will make the first flight sometime within the week. Thanks again for answers to questions asked over the last few years. Mike Sinclair ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:16 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Peter- I have flown both engines in the factory demo. I decided on the Jabaru 3300 for the following reasons 1. Time to overhaul- Jab 2000 hr Rotax- 1500 I think its 1500 now. 2. Simplicity- Rotax requires a reduction gear system, Jab is direct drive. (Less to break) 3. The feel of the jab was inspiring to say the least. Sounded like starting a Jaguar. It jumps into the air. The Rotax is a great engine also. Did you price the FWF kit needed with the Rotax? $5000+ where the Jab FWF kit is about $3200. 4. Finally, I like 6 cylinders vs 4. Best of luck in your building. Al Young 601AY is getting a canopy this week. A ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL From: wizard-24@juno.com --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > Hi group. I am new to this list and trying to find answers about the > zodiac xl. Mainly simple questions I'll try to comment a bit on your questions below, but I would strongly advise checking the archives, which are an invaluable tool for this type of info. > like the average building time Depends on your experience level, kit vs. scratch build, consistency of building, etc. For me, I've never built an airplane before, although I do much of the work on my own cars. I've been building from component kits, and have been at it for almost 4 years, and hopefully, I'll get to a point where I'll fly by the latter part of this year. But I'm only able to build on part of the weekends, and an occasional weeknight. As for cumulative hours, not sure....but what I am certain about is the build time advertised by ZAC is unrealistic. I'd say double it, and that would be more appropriate for the 1st time builder like me. > realistic cruise ( with what engine?) Problem in answering that is that there are so many different engine configurations, hard to say. I think 140mph may be achievable, but probably the upper 120's to mid 130's is more probable. The Zodiac is no speed racer --- but then again, it wasn't meant to be that. Those speeds are acceptable for how I plan to fly. > what are pros and cons about the construction / manual / company support / difficulty building... Again, check the archives -- there's lots in there about this. To summarize, my opinion is good tech support, lousy manual (although improvements are being made), average plans, and as to building difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10 (with 10 being hardest), I'd give it a 6. Feel free to contact me off list if you need specific info on these topics. Mike Fortunato 601XL ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:55 PM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 21:34:51 -0400 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Frank, I've read and reread your post and find no factual data in it. A lot of "rumor" and "I heard" but nothing of any empirical value. As a satisfied Jab owner who has never commented negatively on the years of Subaru problems that have been a staple on this list, I expected better of you. >One rumour that I heard was that Jab did all their dyno testing at below sea >level. Horse-hockey! Where does this stuff come from? >As to de-propping a Jab 3300, has anyone actually sucessfully done >this?...You need a sufficient prop dia to "get around the fuse". This limits >the speed. Last I heard the 3300 was a 100HP engine at real world prop >speeds. I eagerly look forward to the results Jack Callison gets with his in-flight adjustable on his 3300 and hopefully Leo will fill us in. Jabs have not been used (thus far) with much success in the adjustable prop trials because they need air through the RamDucts for cooling while on the ground. Adjustable props tend to have narrow ( or non existent) blade width at the spinner and cannot deliver the required volume of air. Designs tend to change however, and even USJabiru is marketing an Airmaster adjustable for the 3300. The 3300 should be run in the 2700 to 2900 rpm range in cruise. Horsepower will be around 110+. The (THE!) prop right now for the 3300 into Xl or HDS is the Sensenich W64ZK51. If you'd like to lean a bit toward a climb prop then use the Sensenich W64ZK49. Now a bit to sweeten the pot: Pete Krotje showed off a new fwf kit for the 3300 into 601 series at SnF this April. Details are now on www.usjabiru.com Only owners of the "older" style kits will notice all that is new but it is substantial...and a new installation kit with INSTRUCTIONS is in the works too. You can view parts of it online at the Jab site. One neat part is the use of a two inch prop extension to get the spinner out a bit further - the look is great. If you think about using the Jab commit yourself to close adherence to cylinder head temps - always monitor all six CHTs. tailwinds jeff ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:17 PM PST US From: paulvanmunster@bigpond.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Question on setting valve lifters --> Zenith-List message posted by: paulvanmunster@bigpond.com I do not understand the procedure either. You would get greatly differing results depending on weather the lifters are pumped up or collapsed and how exactly do you work out half way. This procedure must be relying on the lifters being collapsed and then pumping up when the engine is started but it sounds very hit or miss. I have read Roy s email and I think you had better go with his procedure. seems to be spot on to me. Regards Paul ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:18 PM PST US From: "Brett " Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac XL Components for sale --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " All you have are the wing and tail kits? Or is it a whole kit? Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:41 PM PST US From: "Greg Ferris" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Greg Ferris" Several years ago I flew in a 601 up at Flypass. They had 2 of them to rent; one with a 912UL and the other with a Jabiru 2200. They rented the plane with the 2200 for $5 less per hour, but still couldn't get anyone to fly it because the performance of the 912UL was so much better. I started my project dead-set against the 912, but after flying behind it I decided it was the best engine for what I wanted to do. Greg F. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Engine Choice - Rotax or Jabiru? > --> Zenith-List message posted by: DEGlass1@aol.com > > Has anyone considered the Jabiru 2200? It's the 80hp (at 3300rpm), 4-cyl, 132lb little bro of the 3300. The torque/horsepower curves cross at 2500rpm, 65hp. On www.jabiru.net.au, they claim to have an installation kit for the Zenair CH601 / CH701. > For either an XL or a 701, isn't 80hp enough, especially if you're building as a light sport aircraft? It seems like this engine could be normally propped and pull an XL just fine, rather than de-propping a 3300 to keep the max speed down. It's lighter, and much less $$, than either the Rotax or Jab 3300. > > I'll be interested in your opinions - we haven't selected our powerplant package yet for the XL. > > David Glass > >