Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:09 AM - Rivet Pitch (Rick Roberts)
2. 05:22 AM - Re: Rivet Pitch (Phil Maxson)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: Rivet Pitch (Larry Martin)
4. 06:28 AM - Re: Rivet Pitch (Rick Roberts)
5. 06:55 AM - Re: Rivet Pitch (etn industries limited)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: Rotax 912ULS /air box Skyshop (SKYSHOP.ORG)
7. 11:26 AM - Re: Rivet Pitch (JERICKSON03E@aol.com)
8. 02:23 PM - Rivet pitch and edge distance (George Swinford)
9. 03:07 PM - Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance (George Swinford)
10. 04:05 PM - Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance (Scott Laughlin)
11. 04:24 PM - Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance (wizard-24@juno.com)
12. 05:00 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS /air box Skyshop (Mike Fothergill)
13. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: Rivet Pitch ()
14. 06:06 PM - Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts <n701rr@yahoo.com>
Good morning my plane building chums. I watch A Plane is Born, A Chopper is Born,
and From the Ground Up and I still need help...JEEZ.....
Rivet Pitch: I'm marking my bottom rudder skin for 40 pitch. My edge of skin
line is 9mm back and my last hole rib line is back 10mm from end of rib. What
do I do if this doesn't allow for perfect 40 pitch? Looks to be off by about
10mm. Have I %crew$d the pooch?
Thanks in advance,
Rick
Orlando
---------------------------------
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Phil Maxson" <pmaxpmax@hotmail.com>
Not at all. Zenith says you can reduce the rivet pitch, but not increase
it, so going to a 35 pitch where the design says 40 is not a problem, for
instance. The minimum would be to honor the edge distance between two
holes.
There are cool fan like tools that can evenly space rivets, or you could do
what Nick Heintz does sometimes and lay them out at 40 (or whatever) and put
the last two or three rivets in at a lower pitch, though this is not as
aesthetically pleasing.
Phil Maxson
601 XL, Corvair
Mounting Engine
>From: Rick Roberts <n701rr@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>To: 701 List <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet Pitch
>Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 05:08:05 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts <n701rr@yahoo.com>
>
>Good morning my plane building chums. I watch A Plane is Born, A Chopper
>is Born, and From the Ground Up and I still need help...JEEZ.....
>
>Rivet Pitch: I'm marking my bottom rudder skin for 40 pitch. My edge of
>skin line is 9mm back and my last hole rib line is back 10mm from end of
>rib. What do I do if this doesn't allow for perfect 40 pitch? Looks to be
>off by about 10mm. Have I %crew$d the pooch?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Rick
>Orlando
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
I don't think I've ever had a perfect pitch. The only way you can get a PERFECT
pitch is with a pitching machine. Seems like at least one of the holes is always
off a little, the drill bit wants to walk a little bit. PERFECT is in the
eye of the beholder. 99.9999% of people will never know you have one rivet
at 38 and one at 41. It won't effect strength or flight characteristic. None
of us will achieve absolute perfection. Just do your best and move on. If you
don't believe me, just take a good look at Zenith's demo machine in your manual
or CD. Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Roberts
To: 701 List
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 7:08 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet Pitch
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts <n701rr@yahoo.com>
Good morning my plane building chums. I watch A Plane is Born, A Chopper is
Born, and From the Ground Up and I still need help...JEEZ.....
Rivet Pitch: I'm marking my bottom rudder skin for 40 pitch. My edge of skin
line is 9mm back and my last hole rib line is back 10mm from end of rib. What
do I do if this doesn't allow for perfect 40 pitch? Looks to be off by about
10mm. Have I %crew$d the pooch?
Thanks in advance,
Rick
Orlando
---------------------------------
---
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts <n701rr@yahoo.com>
Thanks all for the quick responses.
Rick
---------------------------------
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: etn industries limited <sudhir19_us@yahoo.com>
IN MY RUDDER SOME OF EDGE DISTANCES { I THINK ABOUT 5 OR 6 PLACES} AND DISTANCE
BETWEEN TWO RIVETS IS LESS THAN THE EDGE DISTANCE RECOMENDED BY ZENITH ,,,I THOUGHT
IT WAS OK ,, BUT NOW I THINK ?
Rick Roberts <n701rr@yahoo.com> wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Roberts
Thanks all for the quick responses.
Rick
---------------------------------
best regards,
sudhir wadhwa
Room no. 204 , no.22 ,lane 303,
Caoyang road, Shanghai 200063
China
0086-13757501606
13157552197
575- 8067856{fax}
http://itrademarket.com/etnindustries
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Rotax 912ULS /air box Skyshop |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "SKYSHOP.ORG" <duba@gate.net>
Keith,
Sorry for the deletion, this is 100HP 912ULS. Unfortunately I don't have
any altitude information yet. I'll post as soon as I acquire. Fuel flow
for typical 912ULS depends on how hard you push it between 5.2 and 5.5.
Danny
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith
Ashcraft
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rotax 912ULS /air box Skyshop
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft
<keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
Ok Danny,
You have my attention. I am (assuming) that you are talking about a
912S, with a minimum of flaring on wheels and struts. Tell us a little
more about the setup. How does this setup perform at elevation (10,000')
the majority of where I will be flying. I guess I would also like to
know how other pilot's CH701/engines perform at this type of elevation
(so you guys can chime in here if you want). I guess I have had my mind
set to an 80-85mph cruise, but if I can get STOL performance with a
higher cruise speed (plus low fuel flow) then you have my attention. By
the way, what is the fuel flow for this setup you have described?
Keith
CH701
still building
N 38.9947
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
ch701builder@yahoo.com
keith.ashcraft@itt.com
************************************************************************
******************
SKYSHOP.ORG wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "SKYSHOP.ORG" <duba@gate.net>
>
>
>
snip .......
>up substantial performance. Some of the performance figures for this
>package on wheels are 105mph cruise and on new style 1200 floats 100mph
>cruise.
>
>
snip....
>Danny
>
>
>
>
--
*************************************
*Keith Ashcraft*
ITT Industries
Advanced Engineering & Sciences
5009 Centennial Blvd.
Colorado Springs, CO
80919
(719) 599-1787 -- work
(719) 332-4364 -- cell
keith.ashcraft@itt.com
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Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
In a message dated 6/12/2004 7:10:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
n701rr@yahoo.com writes:
>
> Rivet Pitch: I'm marking my bottom rudder skin for 40 pitch. My edge of
> skin line is 9mm back and my last hole rib line is back 10mm from end of rib.
> What do I do if this doesn't allow for perfect 40 pitch? Looks to be off by
> about 10mm. Have I %crew$d the pooch?
>
>
Rick, At the rudder work shop they said to stagger the end most rivets to the
rib's. This to avoid them taking up the same space inside, interference
problem.
It is useful to first locate the end rivet locations, for skin rivet lines,
and then to layout the rivet pitch. Using the end rivets as the start point.
A lister gave us a great tip, how to make a tool to find the flange edge,
hidden by skin, as a ref point to measure for edge distance. A picture may still
be on the photo share. I made mine using aluminum slat's from a venetian
blind. Bent the end as instructed to form the 90 degree lip, and used masking tape
to set the second slat at the edge distance location. Set up so that a sharpie
marker pen would define the 10MM edge distance when used with the flange tool
work aid.
Knowing that the end rivets are set for the right edge distance is the right
way to start any rivet line layout. Brings peace of mind too.
Happy building
Message 8
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| Subject: | Rivet pitch and edge distance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
When I was designing sheet metal bits for the F101 and F4, McDonnell's practice
(approved by the navy) was to use 2 rivet diameters+.06in. as a standard edge
distance. Where this wasn't possible the stress dept. would approve 2d, and in
most cases they would buy off even 2d -.03. For a 1/8 rivet, 2d+.06 is .31inches.
25.4x.317.87mm. I think Chris is allowing generously for our lack of accuracy
in layout and drilling. I haven't sweated the 10mm number too much, and
I've always been able to get 8mm.
For rivet spacing I locate the critical rivet locations in the pattern (usually
the end rivets) and draw the centerline of the rivet row between them. With a
cheap pocket calculator I divide the distance between the critical or end rivets
by 40mm (or whatever rivet pitch is specified). This almost always results
in a decimal fraction. The next larger whole number will be the number of equal
spaces between rivets. Divide the distance between end rivets by this whole
number and you get the distance between each rivet. Store that distance in the
calculator's memory and stretch your scale or tape measure along the rivet line.
Mark the distance for the first space on the rivet pattern centerline, punch
+M on the calculator and it gives you the distance from the start point to
the second rivet, punch +M again and get the third distance, and so on to the
end rivet in the pattern. No special rivet spacing tool required, and no measuring
from rivet to rivet within the row. It takes a lot less time to do it than
to read the explanation.
George Swinford------- Stratus-powered 601HD
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
Sorry for the typo in the calculation of the metric edge distance. It
should read 25.4 mm per inch x 0.31 inches is 7.87mm.
George
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet pitch and edge distance
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
>
> When I was designing sheet metal bits for the F101 and F4, McDonnell's
practice (approved by the navy) was to use 2 rivet diameters+.06in. as a
standard edge distance. Where this wasn't possible the stress dept. would
approve 2d, and in most cases they would buy off even 2d -.03. For a 1/8
rivet, 2d+.06 is .31inches. 25.4x.317.87mm. I think Chris is allowing
generously for our lack of accuracy in layout and drilling. I haven't
sweated the 10mm number too much, and I've always been able to get 8mm.
>
> For rivet spacing I locate the critical rivet locations in the pattern
(usually the end rivets) and draw the centerline of the rivet row between
them. With a cheap pocket calculator I divide the distance between the
critical or end rivets by 40mm (or whatever rivet pitch is specified). This
almost always results in a decimal fraction. The next larger whole number
will be the number of equal spaces between rivets. Divide the distance
between end rivets by this whole number and you get the distance between
each rivet. Store that distance in the calculator's memory and stretch your
scale or tape measure along the rivet line. Mark the distance for the first
space on the rivet pattern centerline, punch +M on the calculator and it
gives you the distance from the start point to the second rivet, punch +M
again and get the third distance, and so on to the end rivet in the pattern.
No special rivet spacing tool required, and no measuring from rivet to rivet
within the row. It takes a!
> lot less time to do it than to read the explanation.
>
> George Swinford------- Stratus-powered 601HD
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Rivet pitch and edge distance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" <cookwithgas@hotmail.com>
"Divide the distance between end rivets by this whole number and you get the
distance between each rivet."
Or you could just purchase one of these. It's worth twice the $39 price
from Aircraft Spruce and other vendors.
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/RivetFan.jpg
With my limited brain power, I have to concentrate hard on making parts
right and assembling properly. Having to calculate rivet spacing goes away
when you use a rivet fan. This tool is fantastic for evenly spacing rivets
in short order.
Good luck,
Scott Laughlin
www.cooknwithgas.com
Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life
Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
Or, you could do the simplest method of all....take an aluminum
yardstick, and drill holes in it for the various rivets pitches you'll be
using (30, 40, etc). Now when you have to mark holes on a part with a
certain pitch, simply line up the pre-dilled holes over the rivet line on
the piece, mark dots through the holes with a Sharpie, and you're ready
to drill. No calculator or formulas needed. If the pitch doesn't divide
up evenly between the end points (which it rarely does), simply center
the pitch on the yardstick within the space you have to work with, and
you're good to go.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
> For rivet spacing I locate the critical rivet locations in the
> pattern (usually the end rivets) and draw the centerline of the
> rivet row between them. With a cheap pocket calculator I divide the
> distance between the critical or end rivets by 40mm (or whatever
> rivet pitch is specified). This almost always results in a decimal
> fraction. The next larger whole number will be the number of equal
> spaces between rivets. Divide the distance between end rivets by
> this whole number and you get the distance between each rivet. Store
> that distance in the calculator's memory and stretch your scale or
> tape measure along the rivet line. Mark the distance for the first
> space on the rivet pattern centerline, punch +M on the calculator
> and it gives you the distance from the start point to the second
> rivet, punch +M again and get the third distance, and so on to the
> end rivet in the pattern. No special rivet spacing tool required,
> and no measuring from rivet to rivet within the row. It takes a!
> lot less time to do it than to read the explanation.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912ULS /air box Skyshop |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi Keith;
If you really plan to do most of your flying, especially taking off,
then you should be thinking 914 not 912. IMHO.
Mike
UHS Spinners
Keith Ashcraft wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Ashcraft <keith.ashcraft@itt.com>
>
>
> Ok Danny,
> You have my attention. I am (assuming) that you are talking about a
> 912S, with a minimum of flaring on wheels and struts. Tell us a little
> more about the setup. How does this setup perform at elevation (10,000')
> the majority of where I will be flying. I guess I would also like to
> know how other pilot's CH701/engines perform at this type of elevation
> (so you guys can chime in here if you want). I guess I have had my mind
> set to an 80-85mph cruise, but if I can get STOL performance with a
> higher cruise speed (plus low fuel flow) then you have my attention. By
> the way, what is the fuel flow for this setup you have described?
>
> Keith
> CH701
> still building
> N 38.9947
> W 105.1305
> Alt. 9,100'
>
> ch701builder@yahoo.com
> keith.ashcraft@itt.com
> ******************************************************************************************
>
>
> SKYSHOP.ORG wrote:
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "SKYSHOP.ORG" <duba@gate.net>
>>
>>
>>
>
> snip .......
>
>
>>up substantial performance. Some of the performance figures for this
>>package on wheels are 105mph cruise and on new style 1200 floats 100mph
>>cruise.
>>
>>
>
> snip....
>
>
>>Danny
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: <jlatimer1@cox.net>
You haven't screwed up. Like the other reponder said, you should always locate
the end rivets, then measure the distance between them. Never will you come
up with an exact spacing of 40 mm. You will usually find that you use somewhere
between 35 and 40 mm. The 40mm is really a guide line. When ZAC says 40 mm
spacing they mean do not exceed 40mm between the rivets.
I usually divide the total distance between the end rivets by 40. This will give
you a non whole number. I then round this number up. It is the number of
rivets you are going to place between the end rivets. I then divide this number
into the total distance between the end rivets and this gives me the real spacing
between the rivets.
Jerry
601HDS 912S
working on panel and fuel system.
>
> From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
> Date: 2004/06/12 Sat PM 02:25:19 EDT
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet Pitch
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 6/12/2004 7:10:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
> n701rr@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> >
> > Rivet Pitch: I'm marking my bottom rudder skin for 40 pitch. My edge of
> > skin line is 9mm back and my last hole rib line is back 10mm from end of rib.
> > What do I do if this doesn't allow for perfect 40 pitch? Looks to be off by
> > about 10mm. Have I %crew$d the pooch?
> >
> >
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
In a message dated 6/12/2004 6:05:53 PM Central Standard Time,
cookwithgas@hotmail.com writes:
> http://www.cooknwithgas.com/RivetFan.jpg
I agree. Buy the fan!!!
Dave
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