---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/13/04: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:24 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/12/04 (Grant Corriveau) 2. 05:38 AM - Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance (Monty Graves) 3. 06:03 AM - Re: Rivet pitch and edge distance (Thomas F Marson) 4. 08:24 AM - (Mark Sherman) 5. 10:15 AM - Cleco Sizes (Dave & Darlene) 6. 12:25 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (Bill Howerton) 7. 12:48 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (Johann) 8. 02:47 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (Bill Steer) 9. 02:54 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (Chuck Deiterich) 10. 03:48 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (JERICKSON03E@aol.com) 11. 04:00 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 12. 05:22 PM - 701 FWF (Mark Sherman) 13. 07:17 PM - Selling engine and parts (David Brough) 14. 10:13 PM - Re: Cleco Sizes (Jack Russell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 06/12/04 From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > Rivet Pitch: I'm marking my bottom rudder skin for 40 pitch. My edge of skin > line is 9mm back and my last hole rib line is back 10mm from end of rib. What > do I do if this doesn't allow for perfect 40 pitch? Looks to be off by about > 10mm. Have I %crew$d the pooch? A 'rivetting' story (groan) to put things in perspective: I was working for Bombardier a few years back when the first RJs were being assembled. Some first line customers were touring the plant with us -- being duly impressed with the new facility etc... While they were facing me, and had their backs towards the wing assembly area, I could see over their shoulders as a riveter obvioisly screwed something up while bucking a rivet. He stopped, shook his head, conisidered something about his error, then just moved on and kept rivetting. I laughed to myself, thankful that the customers hadn't seen this and would ask "Is that OUR airplane?!" So, this episide helped me relax and realize what Chris Heintz means when he says something like: we aren't building a supersonic fighter... so just be careful and apply normal craftsmanship. This list is one good way to pick this up from other builders, just as you are doing. Best -- Grant Corriveau C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100 do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:04 AM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet pitch and edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves I might suggest an addition to Mike's excellent idea. If you drill #40 holes, ( I believe that's the correct bit for the 3/32 silver celcos) in the metal flexible ruler, in a drill press with a fence that is set for the proper edge distance. For example on trailing edges like the wing parts. the ruler guide will give you both rivet spacing and edge distance at the same time. There are also places one can.... Drill the #40 pilot hole, and cleco the ruler in place on both ends and drill the holes as a guide without marking with a sharpie therefore giving as strait a rivet line as the holes were drilled in the ruler. Enlarge the hole to the correct rivet size and deburr after the complete line is drilled for the pilot hole. Monty At 04:24 PM 6/12/04 -0700, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > >Or, you could do the simplest method of all....take an aluminum >yardstick, and drill holes in it for the various rivets pitches you'll be >using (30, 40, etc). Now when you have to mark holes on a part with a >certain pitch, simply line up the pre-dilled holes over the rivet line on >the piece, mark dots through the holes with a Sharpie, and you're ready >to drill. No calculator or formulas needed. If the pitch doesn't divide >up evenly between the end points (which it rarely does), simply center >the pitch on the yardstick within the space you have to work with, and >you're good to go. > >Mike Fortunato >601XL ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:21 AM PST US From: "Thomas F Marson" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet pitch and edge distance --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" I would like to add that I have the Rivet fan and find its use requires care. That is because as it is stretched out mine begins to form a curved line. I can't use it directly for long runs because of that. Tom Marson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monty Graves" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet pitch and edge distance > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves > > I might suggest an addition to Mike's excellent idea. > > If you drill #40 holes, ( I believe that's the correct bit for the 3/32 > silver celcos) in the metal flexible ruler, in a drill press with a fence > that is set for the proper edge distance. For example on trailing edges > like the wing parts. the ruler guide will give you both rivet spacing and > edge distance at the same time. There are also places one can.... Drill > the #40 pilot hole, and cleco the ruler in place on both ends and drill the > holes as a guide without marking with a sharpie therefore giving as strait > a rivet line as the holes were drilled in the ruler. Enlarge the hole to > the correct rivet size and deburr after the complete line is drilled for > the pilot hole. > > Monty > > > At 04:24 PM 6/12/04 -0700, you wrote: > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com > > > > > >Or, you could do the simplest method of all....take an aluminum > >yardstick, and drill holes in it for the various rivets pitches you'll be > >using (30, 40, etc). Now when you have to mark holes on a part with a > >certain pitch, simply line up the pre-dilled holes over the rivet line on > >the piece, mark dots through the holes with a Sharpie, and you're ready > >to drill. No calculator or formulas needed. If the pitch doesn't divide > >up evenly between the end points (which it rarely does), simply center > >the pitch on the yardstick within the space you have to work with, and > >you're good to go. > > > >Mike Fortunato > >601XL > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:18 AM PST US From: Mark Sherman --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman __________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:44 AM PST US From: "Dave & Darlene" Subject: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi list This is going to sound a little dumb but what are the cleco colours and drill sizes required for the XL. Told you it as dumb. Dave dnimigon@telusplanet.net Alberta 601XL Form blocks finished bending ribs etc. Most of tail parts made ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:29 PM PST US From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" Dave, You have three: 3/32" These are silver - they equate to a #40 drill bit, and are used with A3 rivets 1/8" These are brass colored - they equate to a #30 bit, and are used with A4 rivets 5/32" These are black, and equate to a #20 bit, and are used with A5 rivets The 1/8" and 5/32" are far and away the most common in the kits - you need to have 200-300 of each of these, the 3/32" are usually for holding together pieces of sheet metal that have been drilled with a #40 pilot bit -- you can probably get by with 30-40 of these Bill ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:54 PM PST US From: "Johann" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Johann" Hello Dave. There are no dumb questions on this list. We are here to help you with your building of your Zenith aircraft. Everyone is here to help. You will need all these sizes. The most used drill sizes are #40=3/32"(2,4mm)=silver color clecos, #30=1/8"(3,2mm)=bronze clecos This is the rivets mostly used on your plane. Finally you will need #20 drill=5/32"(4,1mm)and black clecos. You will almost every time start with drill #40 which is the smallest drill, just in case you will need to move the hole a little in case of misalignment of the part. Do not hesitate to ask a question, even though you think it is dumb. Just ask and you will get answered. Happy building. Johann G. Iceland. Zenith 701 www.fisflug.tk -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave & Darlene Subject: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave & Darlene" Hi list This is going to sound a little dumb but what are the cleco colours and drill sizes required for the XL. Told you it as dumb. Dave dnimigon@telusplanet.net Alberta 601XL Form blocks finished bending ribs etc. Most of tail parts made ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:07 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" I agree with the other responsers - just ask if you have a question. You might also want to pick up a copy of the "Standard Aircraft Handbook," by Larry Reithmaier. It's chock full of all sorts of good information you'll need as you build, including the answer to your cleco question at the bottom of page 67. Bill > This is going to sound a little dumb but what are the cleco colours and drill sizes required for the XL. Told you it as dumb. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:01 PM PST US From: "Chuck Deiterich" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" Bill, # 20 or #21 drills (I used the smaller #21 per Tony Bingelis), A5 rivets are 5/32 and black clecos But #30 drill, A4 rivets are 1/8" and clecos are copper colored. Brass colored clecos are 3/16". Chuck D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Howerton" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Howerton" > > Dave, > You have three: > > 3/32" These are silver - they equate to a #40 drill bit, and are used with > A3 rivets > 1/8" These are brass colored - they equate to a #30 bit, and are used with > A4 rivets > 5/32" These are black, and equate to a #20 bit, and are used with A5 rivets > > The 1/8" and 5/32" are far and away the most common in the kits - you need > to have 200-300 of each of these, the 3/32" are usually for holding together > pieces of sheet metal that have been drilled with a #40 pilot bit -- you can > probably get by with 30-40 of these > > Bill > > > __________________________________________________________ > This message was scanned by GatewayDefender > 5:33:58 PM ET - 6/13/2004 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:05 PM PST US From: JERICKSON03E@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com In a message dated 6/13/2004 4:48:08 PM Central Daylight Time, bsteer@gwi.net writes: > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" > > I agree with the other responsers - just ask if you have a question. You > might also want to pick up a copy of the "Standard Aircraft Handbook," by > Larry Reithmaier. It's chock full of all sorts of good information you'll > need as you build, including the answer to your cleco question at the bottom > of page 67. > > Bill > > > This is going to sound a little dumb but what are the cleco colours and > drill sizes required for the XL. Told you it as dumb. > > While on the subject of useful technical information, there are the FAA Advisory Circulars that cover airframe, powerplant and general info for A & P mechanics. These AC's cover the basic info used to test for both the Airframe and Powerplant, Airman Certificates. Why should homebuilders know or care about such technical info? Many of us will be inspecting our own aircraft. There is a difference between new construction, and CONDITION inspection. The ANNUAL inspection required by FAR Part 43 for your homebuilt aircraft. You will sign it off, as airworthey for the coming 12 months, as the FAA Certificated Repairman for that aircraft. So, same requirements as for an A&P. You are going to get the Repairman Certificate, right??? By getting to know what is required ahead of time, we are more likely to bring better skills, and mind set, to the task. Good Fathers Day AC 43.13 - 1B/2A Aircraft Inspection, Repair & Alterations AC 65 - 9A A&P Mechanics General Handbook AC 65 - 15A A&P Mechanics Airframe Handbook AC 65 - 12A A&P Mechanics Powerplant Handbook Or the latest versions of each. They seem to run less than $20.00 each. Look for them on the EAA Book lists, some airport pilot shop's too. Bookstores where A&P courses are taught. Jerry Erickson, 701SP, fuselage in work, 912ULS waiting ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:10 PM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com I might be color blind....but my 1/8 inch clecos are COPPER colored. My 3/16 inch clecos are BRASS. Dave ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:38 PM PST US From: Mark Sherman Subject: Zenith-List: 701 FWF --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mark Sherman Sorry about the previous blank posting. I have had trouble posting a message, the spam firewall kept bouncing me out. Must be something I said. I have decided to use the FWF kit by sky shop in FL. They seem to at least be interested in selling a complete kit. And saves me a grand also. After talking to Danny at sky shops about the increased hp with cold air intake and a more streamlined cowling, that's the way I decided to go. The modifications to the air box look minimal, maybe just for cowling clearance. I'll let everyone how it looks when I receive it in late July. I already have the motor mount from ZAC, and because sky shops couldn't supply the FWF kit without the motor mount I will be selling a 701/rotax 912 motor mount when I receive my FWF kit. Anyone interested please e-mail me. Mark Sherman CH-701/912ULS Started wiring the radio and instruments today. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:22 PM PST US From: "David Brough" Subject: Zenith-List: Selling engine and parts Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:16:18 -0700 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "David Brough" I have been flying my zodiac 601 HDS now for about a year here in Arizona and have found that my Rotax 912 80 Hp isn't powerful enough to easily handle 115 degree heat nor the wind shears that are here. Therefore I'm upgrading to a 912S and now have my 912UL with 92 hours on it for sale. It's in excellent condition and I'm asking $8500. This includes the ignition system, carbs, starter, and oil tank. I also have some other items that I'm not using: Zenith factory cowling for the 601 HDS $375, Zenith radiator, (the one that was to go under the cowling) $85, and also have a GSC prop (from Zenith) 68inch with spinner ground adjustable TT 36 hrs. $375. And a Avcomm AC-747 headset, new still in box, $175 --Let me know if interested Dave ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:40 PM PST US From: Jack Russell Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Cleco Sizes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jack Russell I have bought extra clecos 3 times now and I still run out of them. At some stages of building I run out of the black and other times it is the copper. Then all of a sudden you get to a point of riveting and your bucket runnith over again with clecos. I also bought about 15 of the 3/16" when I got tired of using machine screws and nuts. Cleco's are much easier. Jack Jack Russell -Clovis CA 601 XL Jabiru 3300 Progress update at: http://www.geocities.com/clojan@sbcglobal.net/zodiacbarn.html