Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:58 AM - Nav Antenna Mounting Location (Phil Raker)
2. 05:06 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (gary)
3. 05:29 AM - Re: WigWags (Larry Martin)
4. 05:32 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Michel Therrien)
5. 06:09 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (cgalley)
6. 07:10 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Michel Therrien)
7. 07:38 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Hinde, Frank George)
8. 08:05 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Hinde, Frank George)
9. 08:12 AM - Re: Another First Flight ()
10. 08:24 AM - ()
11. 08:25 AM - Re: Nav Antenna Mounting Location (Bryan Martin)
12. 08:36 AM - Re: Nav Antenna Mounting Location (Ray Montagne)
13. 08:37 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Bryan Martin)
14. 08:49 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (cgalley)
15. 08:54 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Hinde, Frank George)
16. 10:08 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Thomas F Marson)
17. 10:20 AM - Canopy lift struts (Grant Corriveau)
18. 10:23 AM - Re: Check valves with Facet pumps (Hinde, Frank George)
19. 11:00 AM - Re: Canopy lift struts (Michel Therrien)
20. 11:06 AM - Re: Canopy lift struts ()
21. 12:17 PM - Re: NAV Antenna & Venturi mounting location (wizard-24@juno.com)
22. 01:31 PM - Fuel (Hinde, Frank George)
23. 02:32 PM - Re: Fuel (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
24. 02:45 PM - Re: Fuel (Hinde, Frank George)
25. 04:19 PM - Re: NAV Antenna & Venturi mounting location (Ray Montagne)
26. 04:43 PM - facet pump info (Jeff Small)
27. 05:10 PM - Re: facet pump info (Hinde, Frank George)
28. 05:26 PM - Re: facet pump info (Dave Austin)
29. 05:30 PM - Re: FAQ help (Jeffrey Davidson)
30. 08:01 PM - fuel sender in header tank question (Trevor Page)
31. 08:21 PM - Re: FAQ help (Cdngoose)
32. 08:41 PM - Re: fuel sender in header tank question (wizard-24@juno.com)
33. 09:22 PM - Re: fuel sender in header tank question (Graham Kirby)
34. 11:49 PM - Re: Canopy lift struts (Richard McLachlan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Nav Antenna Mounting Location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Phil Raker <phadr1@yahoo.com>
I had wondered about that same thing. Does anyone have a tail-mounted nav
antenna flying on a CH designed plane? I would think mounting a nav antenna on
a moving tail would not be a good thing for nav accuracy. That's why you
usually see it on the vertical stabilizer, NOT the rudder. Does anyone have
experience with the antenna mounted on the rudder (like on Zenith planes)?
Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed
>From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: NAV Antenna & Venturi mounting location>>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>> --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
>>
>>
>>Would love advice on the following:
>>
>> 1. The NAV antenna in most planes seems to be mounted in the
>> vertical tail....however, in the 601, there's not enough room for a clean
>> installation. Can this antenna be mounted on the bottom of the fuselage,
>> back in the tail section instead? By the way, the antenna I'm referring
>> to is the v-shaped NAV used for VORs. Remember VOR's? :)
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Mike Fortunato
>> 601XL
>
>I have my VOR antenna mounted on the vertical tail, but then my antenna is
>homemade and was designed to fit there. I've also seen them mounted at the
>end of a vertical mast on top of the fuselage, probably to prevent the
>fuselage from shadowing the antenna. The VOR antenna may need some
>seperation from hroizontal surfaces for better reception but I'm not sure of
>this. Since the VOR signal is coming from the ground, the antenna may work
>fine on the bottom of the fuselage. You will have to make sure any antennas
>mounted on the belly can't drag the ground when the nose is high during
>take-off or landing. You might try asking this question on the aeroelectric
>list at Matronics or on usenet rec.aviation.homebuilt if you have a news
>account.
>
>Bryan Martin
>
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "gary" <FlyinK@Efortress.com>
>
> The Facet pumps have an internal check valve. Do you need another?
I was told by Purolator that some do and some don't - the 40108's do and the
40106's don't. however, even without the check valve they have a small leak
rate, something like 1/2 gal/hour. The 40106's work fine in parallel
without check valves.
gary
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
Thanks, you could be right. Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: max.johansson@nokia.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:29 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: WigWags
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <max.johansson@nokia.com>
Larry, perhaps rather because they do not have time to cool...
It is typically the high inrush current on the cold filament
that kills bulbs, so arranging a parallell path past the
switching to allow some standby current flow is a good idea.
The lamps will then also allow a higher rate of wig-wag.
rgrds, Max
RE -> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
> I got an e-mail from Tom Orsborn concerning the effect of the
> lifecycle of the lamps when wigwagging.
> Anyway to answer the question. I don't think it will affect
> the life cycle simply because the lamps don't have time to heat up
> and it's heat that eventually causes them to fail.
> But, of course everything only works so long anyway.
---
Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
While the pump acts as a check valve by itself, it is
not perfect. There is some fuel that will backflow
through the valve.
I tried solving this by installing a check valve (from
ACS) in series with the pump. Tried again and found
that there was much more back flow through the pump.
It seem that two check valves in series cancel each
other in some way (there is no pressure on the ball in
the check valve to refrain it from coming back).
I think that spring loaded check valves (such as some
Swadgelock) could be better.
Anyway, I removed the check valve entirely as it was
causing more arm than good. The back flow through the
pump is minimal anyway.
I know that this information is on my web site (along
with some measurements of back flow quantities per
hour), but I cannot access it now.
Michel
--- Joemotis@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
>
> Greetings listers
> I am putting my Facet pumps between NR 2 and 3 in my
> 601XL. Would it be
> acceptable to put the check valves inside the
> fuselage, about a foot and a half
> from the pump, locating them at the valve?
>
> Joe Motis
> 601XL>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Purolator makes filters not pumps. Those are filter model numbers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <FlyinK@efortress.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "gary" <FlyinK@Efortress.com>
>
> >
> > The Facet pumps have an internal check valve. Do you need another?
>
> I was told by Purolator that some do and some don't - the 40108's do and
the
> 40106's don't. however, even without the check valve they have a small
leak
> rate, something like 1/2 gal/hour. The 40106's work fine in parallel
> without check valves.
>
> gary
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
See
http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Cubed_Solid.pdf
These are fuel pumps. Interestingly however, the fuel
pumps we use do not have integrated check valves!
(according to the pdf file above).
Michel
--- cgalley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley"
> <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Purolator makes filters not pumps. Those are filter
> model numbers.
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message 7
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| Subject: | Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
The 40105 and 40106 series check valves do not work very well. There is
significant backflow through them. With a wing tanks only A/C it makes
it hard to know where your fuel is.
As you suggested I put my external check valves inside the cockpit. As
long as they are NOT on the inlet side of the pump they will be fine.
I just use an individual switch for each pump which is fed from each
electrically isolated battery.
The 106 pumps are required as the 105's do not make enough pressure at
the carb.
Frank
Subaru 327 hours 601 HDS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F
Marson
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
--> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
The Facet pumps have an internal check valve. Do you need another?
Tom
----- Original Message -----
> Greetings listers
> I am putting my Facet pumps between NR 2 and 3 in my 601XL. Would it
> be acceptable to put the check valves inside the fuselage, about a
> foot and a
half
> from the pump, locating them at the valve?
>
> Joe Motis
> 601XL
> do not archive
>
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 8
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| Subject: | Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I used the swagelock spring loaded check...works fine
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Therrien
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
While the pump acts as a check valve by itself, it is
not perfect. There is some fuel that will backflow
through the valve.
I tried solving this by installing a check valve (from
ACS) in series with the pump. Tried again and found
that there was much more back flow through the pump.
It seem that two check valves in series cancel each
other in some way (there is no pressure on the ball in
the check valve to refrain it from coming back).
I think that spring loaded check valves (such as some
Swadgelock) could be better.
Anyway, I removed the check valve entirely as it was
causing more arm than good. The back flow through the
pump is minimal anyway.
I know that this information is on my web site (along
with some measurements of back flow quantities per
hour), but I cannot access it now.
Michel
--- Joemotis@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com
>
> Greetings listers
> I am putting my Facet pumps between NR 2 and 3 in my
> 601XL. Would it be
> acceptable to put the check valves inside the
> fuselage, about a foot and a half
> from the pump, locating them at the valve?
>
> Joe Motis
> 601XL>
>
>
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 9
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| Subject: | Another First Flight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
Congratulations!
Do not Archive
GGP
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: <dhugunin@comcast.net>
I want to extend a warm "Thank-you" to Roy Thoma for taking the time to let me
see, and fly the plane I will soon be building. I have been researching (for...well,
let's say it has been a long time) for the right plane to build. I have
decided on the Zodiac XL and will be ordering my empennage kit in August/September
of this year. I had never seen or flown the aircraft, and was going on faith
alone. After a wonderful introductory flight, I know that I made the right
choice.
Roy answered 13,947 questions with patience and was eager to turn the controls
over to me. My turns-about-a-point were less than perfect, but with no posts and
pillars in the field of view, it is hard to maintain a reference point. I wish
I had a picture taken when he dropped the canopy and I ducked to avoid being
"hit on the head". The visibility and the headroom is truly incredible!
I hope that Zenith Aircraft will someday institute a "finders fee" (like another
aircraft company based at Aurora Airport (KUAO) in Oregon. If they do, Roy gets
my fee!
Thanks, again Roy. I know you wouldn't let me fill the tanks, but a lunch is on
me sometime in the near future.
David Hugunin
dhugunin@comcast.net (KSLE)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Nav Antenna Mounting Location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Raker" <phadr1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Nav Antenna Mounting Location
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Phil Raker <phadr1@yahoo.com>
>
> I had wondered about that same thing. Does anyone have a tail-mounted nav
> antenna flying on a CH designed plane? I would think mounting a nav
antenna on
> a moving tail would not be a good thing for nav accuracy. That's why you
> usually see it on the vertical stabilizer, NOT the rudder. Does anyone
have
> experience with the antenna mounted on the rudder (like on Zenith planes)?
>
> Phil Raker N556P HDS/Stratus ~85% completed
The VOR antenna is omnidirectional, it receives equally well from all
directions. A straight dipole antenna has a sharp null off the end of each
arm, mounting the two arms of the antenna at an angle to each other
eliminates the nulls. Mounting a a VOR antenna on a moving surface will have
no impact on nav acuracy. All of the directional information is contained in
the transmitted signal, the direction the receiving antenna is pointed has
no effect on the signal at all as long as the antenna is not shadowed by
other aircraft structure. The antenna must be mounted in a horizontal plane
because the signal being transmitted from the VOR is horizontally polarized
to reduce the possibility of receiving a reflected signal. Horizontally
polarized signals don't reflect off the ground to any significant degree.
The reason you don't often see VOR antennas on the rudder is that few
airplanes have an all moving vertical tail, mounting it to the fixed
vertical structure simplifies cable routing.
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Nav Antenna Mounting Location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 7/6/04 8:25 AM, "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
> The antenna must be mounted in a horizontal plane
> because the signal being transmitted from the VOR is horizontally polarized
> to reduce the possibility of receiving a reflected signal.
Atmospheric noise also tends to be vertically polarized and the horizontal
polarization of the antenna tends to attenuate that noise.
> The reason you don't often see VOR antennas on the rudder is that few
> airplanes have an all moving vertical tail, mounting it to the fixed
> vertical structure simplifies cable routing.
A simple loop will provide sufficient strain relief.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Fuselage Under Construction
NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include
the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not
be viewable by me.
===========================================================================
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
> See
>
http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Cubed_Solid.pdf
>
> These are fuel pumps. Interestingly however, the fuel
> pumps we use do not have integrated check valves!
> (according to the pdf file above).
>
> Michel
>
Most of the Facet pumps have a built in check valve, but they are designed
to have a small amount of leakage to allow pressure to bleed off after shut
down. These pumps will allow fuel in a higher tank to siphon into a lower
tank if the fuel system design allows it. Some of the Facet pumps do not
allow any leakage (this is probably what they mean by having an anti-siphon
valve in the above link). These will prevent any fuel from draining back
through them when they are shut down and will not require any additional
check valve (according to what I've read about them).
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
I've got egg on my face!
BTW Champion oil filters are numbered CH48108 etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
> See
>
http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Cubed_Solid.pdf
>
> These are fuel pumps. Interestingly however, the fuel
> pumps we use do not have integrated check valves!
> (according to the pdf file above).
>
> Michel
>
>
> --- cgalley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley"
> > <cgalley@qcbc.org>
> >
> > Purolator makes filters not pumps. Those are filter
> > model numbers.
> >
> >
>
> =====
> ----------------------------
> Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
> http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
> http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
My 106's leaked in excess of 1 GPH....On a wing tank only plane this was
too much for my feeble overstressed flying mind to deal with. With the
check valves and a flowscan totalizer I have good control over my
fuel...I have taken it down to the 30 minute limit once and found almost
exactly the quantity of fuel I expected left in each tank.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin"
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
>
> See
>
http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Cubed_Solid.
pdf
>
> These are fuel pumps. Interestingly however, the fuel
> pumps we use do not have integrated check valves!
> (according to the pdf file above).
>
> Michel
>
Most of the Facet pumps have a built in check valve, but they are
designed to have a small amount of leakage to allow pressure to bleed
off after shut down. These pumps will allow fuel in a higher tank to
siphon into a lower tank if the fuel system design allows it. Some of
the Facet pumps do not allow any leakage (this is probably what they
mean by having an anti-siphon valve in the above link). These will
prevent any fuel from draining back through them when they are shut down
and will not require any additional check valve (according to what I've
read about them).
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
I have owned and installed 4 different facet 12 volt pumps each did have a
check valve. It is easy to test. simply blow backward with strong pressure
with your mouth on the outlet ---------- no flow, Next blow forward and it
air flow with minimum pressure. Regardless of what the specs seem to be
saying, that is my experience. Tom M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin"
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> >
> > See
> >
>
http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Cubed_Solid.pdf
> >
> > These are fuel pumps. Interestingly however, the fuel
> > pumps we use do not have integrated check valves!
> > (according to the pdf file above).
> >
> > Michel
> >
> Most of the Facet pumps have a built in check valve, but they are designed
> to have a small amount of leakage to allow pressure to bleed off after
shut
> down. These pumps will allow fuel in a higher tank to siphon into a lower
> tank if the fuel system design allows it. Some of the Facet pumps do not
> allow any leakage (this is probably what they mean by having an
anti-siphon
> valve in the above link). These will prevent any fuel from draining back
> through them when they are shut down and will not require any additional
> check valve (according to what I've read about them).
>
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Construction complete.
> Waiting on the paperwork.
> do not archive
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Canopy lift struts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
I know this has been discussed a lot, but of course, now that I want to
re-read it all, I can't seem to find the appropriate key words to pull the
references out of the arichives!
I'm looking for some 'tailgate lift struts' to adapt for my new forward lift
canopy. I didn't use the XL plans exactly, so I can't use the smallest unit
that they use that is so nicely hidden. Mine can be anywhere from 8 to 12
inches and will lie along the inside edge of the canopy/longeron -- in full
view -- I can live with that.
My questions relate to the pressure these units exert and how to reduce it.
Are they all adjustable? Or only specifically made ones? The local Can.
Tire store has suitable-length units, but they seem to exert a lot of
pressure and I figure I only need about 20-25 lbs per side. Is this about
right?
So, if anyone can tell me how to adjust the pressure, or lead me to a unit
that IS adjustable or of the correct pressure to begin with, I'd be
thankful.
Regards,
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
(getting ready to fly AGAIN!)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Check valves with Facet pumps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Unfortunatly you can't generate much pressure with your mouth...I Just
blown into a pressure guage and got 2 to 3psi At 5 to 6psi and you will
find they leak pretty good.
Remember while your blowing hard it would be difficult to detect any
flow because 0.5 GPM of air would feel like nothing.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thomas F
Marson
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson"
--> <tmarson@pressenter.com>
I have owned and installed 4 different facet 12 volt pumps each did have
a check valve. It is easy to test. simply blow backward with strong
pressure with your mouth on the outlet ---------- no flow, Next blow
forward and it air flow with minimum pressure. Regardless of what the
specs seem to be saying, that is my experience. Tom M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Martin" <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bryan Martin"
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Therrien" <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Check valves with Facet pumps
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien
> > --> <mtherr@yahoo.com>
> >
> > See
> >
>
http://www.facet-purolator.com/mcl/media/technology/hd_pdfs/Cubed_Solid.
pdf
> >
> > These are fuel pumps. Interestingly however, the fuel pumps we use
> > do not have integrated check valves! (according to the pdf file
> > above).
> >
> > Michel
> >
> Most of the Facet pumps have a built in check valve, but they are
> designed to have a small amount of leakage to allow pressure to bleed
> off after
shut
> down. These pumps will allow fuel in a higher tank to siphon into a
> lower tank if the fuel system design allows it. Some of the Facet
> pumps do not allow any leakage (this is probably what they mean by
> having an
anti-siphon
> valve in the above link). These will prevent any fuel from draining
> back through them when they are shut down and will not require any
> additional check valve (according to what I've read about them).
>
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> Construction complete.
> Waiting on the paperwork.
> do not archive
>
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy lift struts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien <mtherr@yahoo.com>
Look at www.mcmaster.com You have a good selection of
gas springs and they are cheaper than at Canadian
Tire.
Michel
--- Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau
> <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> I know this has been discussed a lot, but of course,
> now that I want to
> re-read it all, I can't seem to find the appropriate
> key words to pull the
> references out of the arichives!
>
> I'm looking for some 'tailgate lift struts' to adapt
> for my new forward lift
> canopy. I didn't use the XL plans exactly, so I
> can't use the smallest unit
> that they use that is so nicely hidden. Mine can be
> anywhere from 8 to 12
> inches and will lie along the inside edge of the
> canopy/longeron -- in full
=====
----------------------------
Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ
http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby
http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby
__________________________________
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message 20
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| Subject: | Canopy lift struts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
Grant: I used 20" long units @ 20. lbs ea, when I did my forward tilt canopy.
They worked OK except during fast taxi or wind: the canopy would sag down on my
arm. Mine were several years old and were obviously losing force. I replaced
them with 20" long units @ 30. lbs ea. These work better.
GGP
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: NAV Antenna & Venturi mounting location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> The VOR antenna is never mounted vertically. I'm installing a VOR
> Glideslope "V" on top of the rudder which is usually where you'll
> find it on most other aircraft.
Understood. But because the Zodie's tail fin is so narrow, that round
center piece does not fit well if mounted on top (or inside) the rudder.
I'd be interested to know how you're installing it there -- maybe I'm
overlooking something.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
Message 22
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I'm taking my Stratus powered 601HDS to Arlington on Friday. I know that
fuel at Arlington is usually competitively priced AND they carry UL 82
gas.
I normally run premium gas to avoid detonation (as I've had with lower
grade fuels) and I wondered if anyone knows what UL 82 is equivilent to
in the car gas world?
Thanks
Frank
601 HDS stratus with Ram heads. 327 hours
Message 23
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
UL 82 is basically the same as 87 octane auto gas, it's made from the same
stock but doesn't change composition from summer to winter. It's the
replacement for 80 octane avgas.
--
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I'm taking my Stratus powered 601HDS to Arlington on Friday. I know that
> fuel at Arlington is usually competitively priced AND they carry UL 82
> gas.
>
> I normally run premium gas to avoid detonation (as I've had with lower
> grade fuels) and I wondered if anyone knows what UL 82 is equivilent to
> in the car gas world?
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
> 601 HDS stratus with Ram heads. 327 hours
>
Message 24
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Bummer!....:(
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bryanmmartin@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
UL 82 is basically the same as 87 octane auto gas, it's made from the
same stock but doesn't change composition from summer to winter. It's
the replacement for 80 octane avgas.
--
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George"
> --> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> I'm taking my Stratus powered 601HDS to Arlington on Friday. I know
> that fuel at Arlington is usually competitively priced AND they carry
> UL 82 gas.
>
> I normally run premium gas to avoid detonation (as I've had with lower
> grade fuels) and I wondered if anyone knows what UL 82 is equivilent
> to in the car gas world?
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank
> 601 HDS stratus with Ram heads. 327 hours
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: NAV Antenna & Venturi mounting location |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 7/6/04 12:17 PM, "wizard-24@juno.com" <wizard-24@juno.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
>
> I'd be interested to know how you're installing it there -- maybe I'm
> overlooking something.
VOR antenna installation is still a work in process here. My antenna has
two pedestals that will be mounted on top of the rudder. I've got 2 lbs
urethene foam on order and will be forming a fairing on top of the rudder
that will be laid up in fiberglass.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Fuselage Under Construction
NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include
the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not
be viewable by me.
===========================================================================
Message 26
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Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:44:40 -0400
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Once again from the archives...
http://www.facet-purolator.com/electri.htm
>the 40171, the 40105, and the 40106. The differences fall into
two distinct categories that relate to pump-off forward and reverse
leakage flows.
The Facet 40171 pump is the type sold by Stoddard-Hamilton Aircraft ,
Inc. (360-495-8533) to serve as a transfer pump for transferring fuel
from the auxiliary tanks to the main tanks. The 40171 costs about $54
each. The Facet 40105 and 40106 are sold by numerous suppliers,
including Aircraft Spruce and Specialties (800-824-1930 (west);
800-831-2949 (east)), Chief Aircraft (800-447-3408), Wicks
(800-221-9425) and others and typically used in the Zenith and other
aircraft for transferring fuel from an aux tank to a header tank. The
40105/6 pumps cost about $28 to $32 each.
Functionally, there is a world of difference between the
40171 and the 40105 / 40106.
All three model pumps have a "lift" capability and can draw fuel from
at least 3-feet. All three move the fuel at about 0.5 gal/min, or about
30 gal/h when they are operating.
In the "OFF" state, however, the differences between the pumps become
more obvious. At a 30-inch head pressure, the 40105 and 40106 pumps
have a forward "leak" rate or drain rate of about 15 gal/h. These pumps
thus flow freely in the forward direction at about one-half the pumping
rate.... In the reverse direction, the 40105 and 40106 drain backwards
at between 0.05 ga/h to about 0.25 gal/hr, with a mean value over a
dozen tests with four different pumps of about 0.1 gal/h. (As a point
of reference, 0.1 gal/h is about one drop per second). Compare these
numbers to the 40171 pump, which showed no detectable leakage in the
"OFF" state in either the forward or reverse directions over several
hours.
The utilization implications are pretty clear: If your "from" tank is
higher that the "to" tank, you need the 40171 pump to prevent your
"from" fuel from draining into your "to" tank. If your "from" and "to"
tanks are at about the same level, you should still use the 40171 pump
to prevent an exchange of fuel. If your "from" tank is lower than your
"to" tank, you can use any of the pumps described, but if you use the
40105 or 40106, you should use a check valve on the outlet side of the
pump to present your "to" tank from draining back into your "from"
tank. Wicks lists a check valve at about $24, so cost-wise the 40171
may represent a better bargain because it has the checks built into
them....
You can identify the model by looking at the mounting tab on the pump.
One side of the mounting slot will be stamped "40" and the other side
will be stamped "105", 106" or "171".
..and contrary to what was said a few messages ago - the 40106, being a stronger
pump, may not work well with the Jabiru mechanical engine fuel pump. If you're
planning an installation from wing tank pumps to the mechanical Jab pump,
go with the 40105.
CAVU jeff
Message 27
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes my comment about using the 40106 pump was based on a wing tank only
with no mechanical (or any other kind of pump for that matter) in
series. The Stratus at 100HP at full throttle with the 105 pump showed
ZERO psi.... With an additonal pump it may not be a good choice.
Personally I don't like the use of a mechanical pump because if the
electric pump is a just a little undersized it is possible to have the
machanical pump suck on the fuel slightly.
Sucking on fuel is a really bad thing unless you like having your
machincal pump vapour lock of course!...Thats a bad joke by the way.
I get nervous when I see pumps being advertised as having a "lift"
capability for the same reason. Lifting fuel is a very bad idea!
The reason I like the 40106 pump is that its also stocked by most
autoparts stores under different names, including purolator. But thay
all have 40105 or 40106 stamped on them. Never know, might be useful one
day 500 miles from home?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small
Subject: Zenith-List: facet pump info
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Once again from the archives...
http://www.facet-purolator.com/electri.htm
>the 40171, the 40105, and the 40106. The differences fall into
two distinct categories that relate to pump-off forward and reverse
leakage flows.
The Facet 40171 pump is the type sold by Stoddard-Hamilton Aircraft ,
Inc. (360-495-8533) to serve as a transfer pump for transferring fuel
from the auxiliary tanks to the main tanks. The 40171 costs about $54
each. The Facet 40105 and 40106 are sold by numerous suppliers,
including Aircraft Spruce and Specialties (800-824-1930 (west);
800-831-2949 (east)), Chief Aircraft (800-447-3408), Wicks
(800-221-9425) and others and typically used in the Zenith and other
aircraft for transferring fuel from an aux tank to a header tank. The
40105/6 pumps cost about $28 to $32 each.
Functionally, there is a world of difference between the
40171 and the 40105 / 40106.
All three model pumps have a "lift" capability and can draw fuel from
at least 3-feet. All three move the fuel at about 0.5 gal/min, or about
30 gal/h when they are operating.
In the "OFF" state, however, the differences between the pumps become
more obvious. At a 30-inch head pressure, the 40105 and 40106 pumps
have a forward "leak" rate or drain rate of about 15 gal/h. These pumps
thus flow freely in the forward direction at about one-half the pumping
rate.... In the reverse direction, the 40105 and 40106 drain backwards
at between 0.05 ga/h to about 0.25 gal/hr, with a mean value over a
dozen tests with four different pumps of about 0.1 gal/h. (As a point
of reference, 0.1 gal/h is about one drop per second). Compare these
numbers to the 40171 pump, which showed no detectable leakage in the
"OFF" state in either the forward or reverse directions over several
hours.
The utilization implications are pretty clear: If your "from" tank is
higher that the "to" tank, you need the 40171 pump to prevent your
"from" fuel from draining into your "to" tank. If your "from" and "to"
tanks are at about the same level, you should still use the 40171 pump
to prevent an exchange of fuel. If your "from" tank is lower than your
"to" tank, you can use any of the pumps described, but if you use the
40105 or 40106, you should use a check valve on the outlet side of the
pump to present your "to" tank from draining back into your "from" tank.
Wicks lists a check valve at about $24, so cost-wise the 40171 may
represent a better bargain because it has the checks built into them....
You can identify the model by looking at the mounting tab on the pump.
One side of the mounting slot will be stamped "40" and the other side
will be stamped "105", 106" or "171".
..and contrary to what was said a few messages ago - the 40106, being a
stronger pump, may not work well with the Jabiru mechanical engine fuel
pump. If you're planning an installation from wing tank pumps to the
mechanical Jab pump, go with the 40105.
CAVU jeff
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: facet pump info |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" <daveaustin2@sprint.ca>
Just one addition to Jeff's great description of the three pumps.
If you pump from the aux tank to the top of the main tank you don't need the
check valve and can use the cheaper pump.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 29
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" <jeffrey.davidson@earthlink.net>
Mark,
It's been a year since we met at the Zenair Dinner last year. Wow!
Here are some ideas for the FAQ:
Tools: hand tools vs. lots of power tools - high speed drill - unibits - 90
degree attachment - a drill press is highly desirable
Rivets: Avex rivets work hardened by rounding the head of counter sunk
rivets as they are pulled using a modified puller
Time Required: maybe 400 hours the second time - has taken some folks more
than 10 years ....
Table: size and materials to use: mine is 4 by 12 feet - will need to lower
late in the process - then remove
Corrosion Proofing: Zinc Chromate - Zinc Oxide - that new water based stuff
or none
For RV folks: yes, blind rivets are structural - no, dimpling is not always
necessary
Airspeed expectations: some may make the advertised speeds, but not too
many ...
Zenair Workshop: highly recommended if the builder does not have well honed
skills ....
Well that's a start.
Jeff Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Zenith-List: FAQ help
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Guys
> Over the years a lot of questions have been asked over and over again,
> most of us don't have a problem as we have all been there and done that
> before. But I thought a builder FAQ would be a good idea for our
> website! Only problem is I'm drawing a blank on a lot of those questions
> ( must be the late at night thing/ or the ringing in my ears from
> banging all the solid rivets in the spars yesterday!). SO could you drop
> me an E-Mail with a reminder of the most frequent questions. I'll look
> up the general consensus for the answers and then post the FAQ on the
> www.ch601.org <http://www.ch601.org/> site. Please send all questions
> to moderator@CH601.org
>
> Do not archive
>
> Mark Townsend
> 601XL EJ 2.2L
> Alma, Ontario
> www.ch601.org
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | fuel sender in header tank question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca>
I've purchased a fuel sender (with float) and fuel gauge similar to a
VDO unit but I'm worried about the gasket seal on this thing.
I purchased this combo from Princess auto in Ontario. I'm considering
the side-mounted installation but that thin cork gasket and lack of an
internal "flange" makes me think this thing will leak. It includes has
5 self-tapping screws but the tank aluminum seems thin got these to
have enough bite.
Should I install in the side or go for a top install? If I do the top
install the little bolt on top might protrude in the top skin. If I
install it as a side-mount what I should I do about the screws or goop
to stop any leaks?
Thanks in advance
Trevor
Message 31
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Jeff, good to see your name again. Thanks for some of those questions I
used a few of them in the FAQ. How's your plane coming along?
Mark Townsend
601XL EJ 2.2L
Alma, Ontario
www.ch601.org
-----Original Message-----
Mark,
It's been a year since we met at the Zenair Dinner last year. Wow!
Here are some ideas for the FAQ:
Tools: hand tools vs. lots of power tools - high speed drill - unibits
- 90
degree attachment - a drill press is highly desirable
Rivets: Avex rivets work hardened by rounding the head of counter sunk
rivets as they are pulled using a modified puller
Time Required: maybe 400 hours the second time - has taken some folks
more
than 10 years ....
Table: size and materials to use: mine is 4 by 12 feet - will need to
lower
late in the process - then remove
Corrosion Proofing: Zinc Chromate - Zinc Oxide - that new water based
stuff
or none
For RV folks: yes, blind rivets are structural - no, dimpling is not
always
necessary
Airspeed expectations: some may make the advertised speeds, but not too
many ...
Zenair Workshop: highly recommended if the builder does not have well
honed
skills ....
Well that's a start.
Jeff Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Zenith-List: FAQ help
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
>
> Hi Guys
> Over the years a lot of questions have been asked over and over again,
> most of us don't have a problem as we have all been there and done
that
> before. But I thought a builder FAQ would be a good idea for our
> website! Only problem is I'm drawing a blank on a lot of those
questions
> ( must be the late at night thing/ or the ringing in my ears from
> banging all the solid rivets in the spars yesterday!). SO could you
drop
> me an E-Mail with a reminder of the most frequent questions. I'll look
> up the general consensus for the answers and then post the FAQ on the
> www.ch601.org <http://www.ch601.org/> site. Please send all questions
> to moderator@CH601.org
>
> Do not archive
>
> Mark Townsend
> 601XL EJ 2.2L
> Alma, Ontario
> www.ch601.org
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: fuel sender in header tank question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: wizard-24@juno.com
> Should I install in the side or go for a top install? If I do the
> top install the little bolt on top might protrude in the top skin. If I
> install it as a side-mount what I should I do about the screws or
> goop to stop any leaks?
My opinion on this is mount it on the top. Yes, you may have to put a
hole in the top skin and make a domed cover (something I'm still
wrestling with myself), but there are two benefits to this approach: (1)
you'll avoid having to worry about possible leaks, and (2) that top cover
doubles as an access plate should you ever have to service the sending
unit.
Mike Fortunato
601XL
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| Subject: | fuel sender in header tank question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graham Kirby" <gkirby@yahoo.com>
On the other hand, a side mounted sender is accessible from the wing root.
You can ditch the mounting screws and rivet it to the wall of the tank with
self sealing cherry rivets. Use liberal amounts of pro-seal to make sure
the fuel stays where it should. Don't forget to put a dab of pro-seal on the
rivet heads as well. You even get to practice high school trigonometry in
making the sender arm the right length.
Graham Kirby
601HD
My opinion on this is mount it on the top....
Mike Fortunato
601XL
> Should I install in the side or go for a top install? If I do the
> top install the little bolt on top might protrude in the top skin. If I
> install it as a side-mount what I should I do about the screws or
> goop to stop any leaks?
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy lift struts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" <richard@rodsley.net>
You can certainly buy adjustable ones here in the UK. They come with full
pressure in them, but there is a small valve on one end operated by an Allen
screw. You just crack it slightly open and let the gas out until you get
down to the desired force. I did ours by pushing it on to some scales while
I opened it. Only problem is, is go go too far you have to send it back to
the factory to be re pressurised.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Corriveau" <grantc@ca.inter.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Canopy lift struts
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
>
> I know this has been discussed a lot, but of course, now that I want to
> re-read it all, I can't seem to find the appropriate key words to pull the
> references out of the arichives!
>
> I'm looking for some 'tailgate lift struts' to adapt for my new forward
lift
> canopy. I didn't use the XL plans exactly, so I can't use the smallest
unit
> that they use that is so nicely hidden. Mine can be anywhere from 8 to 12
> inches and will lie along the inside edge of the canopy/longeron -- in
full
> view -- I can live with that.
>
> My questions relate to the pressure these units exert and how to reduce
it.
> Are they all adjustable? Or only specifically made ones? The local Can.
> Tire store has suitable-length units, but they seem to exert a lot of
> pressure and I figure I only need about 20-25 lbs per side. Is this about
> right?
>
> So, if anyone can tell me how to adjust the pressure, or lead me to a unit
> that IS adjustable or of the correct pressure to begin with, I'd be
> thankful.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Grant Corriveau
> C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
> (getting ready to fly AGAIN!)
>
>
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