Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:58 AM - 601 aileron droop/reflex (Bob Miller)
2. 07:58 AM - Re: Pitot Heat (David Barth)
3. 08:34 AM - Re: 601 aileron droop/reflex (baileys)
4. 08:48 AM - Re: 601 aileron droop/reflex (Leo J. Corbalis)
5. 10:34 AM - Re: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex (Bob Miller)
6. 10:59 AM - Re: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex ()
7. 11:34 AM - Hole in 701 firewall for cabin heat (Elwood140@aol.com)
8. 01:21 PM - Re: 601XL FWF weight savings with TD option? (caspainhower@aep.com)
9. 09:35 PM - Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Dave VanLanen)
10. 10:11 PM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Thomas F Marson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 601 aileron droop/reflex |
Rule breakdown below
pts rule name description
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Some time back there was a short discussion on the list re how reflexing the ailerons
(raising the trailing edges a few degrees, equally on both sides) increased
the cruise speed significantly, but also raised the stall speed. Drooping
the ailerons did the reverse. Either will reduce the overall aileron authority,
but only a little.
Has anyone experimented with a way to change the reflex/droop of the ailerons in-flight?
I guess it would make them somewhat like flaperons, but with a very
limited travel, and travel both up and down. I'm not an aeronautical engineer,
and wouldn't install anything without checking with one--or with Zenair--
but am tinkering with drawings for some kind of adjustable spring-and-pulley or
worm-gear system that might allow one to adjust the effective length of the
aileron cables, and hence reflex/droop, in flight.
It wouldn't be worth getting too complicated, but sure seems like it has possibilities
for improving performance without a lot of weight or expense.
Any ideas?
Bob
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
I see them regularly on eBay for about $25 if you don't mind a used unit or New
Old Stock.
david
Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne
I was extremely surprised to find that heated pitot tubes have doubled in
price recently (both Aircraft Spruce and Chief). Anyone know of an
inexpensive source for heated pitot heads?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Fuselage Under Construction
NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include
the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not
be viewable by me.
===========================================================================
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Making Spars - ready for Chromate and riveting
---------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601 aileron droop/reflex |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "baileys" <baileys@ktis.net>
Look at the way Zenith does it on the 701.
Bob B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 aileron droop/reflex
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
<drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> Some time back there was a short discussion on the list re how reflexing
the ailerons (raising the trailing edges a few degrees, equally on both
sides) increased the cruise speed significantly, but also raised the stall
speed. Drooping the ailerons did the reverse. Either will reduce the
overall aileron authority, but only a little.
>
> Has anyone experimented with a way to change the reflex/droop of the
ailerons in-flight? I guess it would make them somewhat like flaperons, but
with a very limited travel, and travel both up and down. I'm not an
aeronautical engineer, and wouldn't install anything without checking with
one--or with Zenair-- but am tinkering with drawings for some kind of
adjustable spring-and-pulley or worm-gear system that might allow one to
adjust the effective length of the aileron cables, and hence reflex/droop,
in flight.
>
> It wouldn't be worth getting too complicated, but sure seems like it has
possibilities for improving performance without a lot of weight or expense.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Bob
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 601 aileron droop/reflex |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
Don't reflex ! I tried 2 and 4 turns on the aileron ball joints from the
normal straight line setting and got maybe 2mph and a glide angle that
matched the space shuttle. Reflex only works on certain airfoils. I did not
get a significant speed increase.
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: 601 aileron droop/reflex
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
<drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
>
> Some time back there was a short discussion on the list re how reflexing
the ailerons (raising the trailing edges a few degrees, equally on both
sides) increased the cruise speed significantly, but also raised the stall
speed. Drooping the ailerons did the reverse. Either will reduce the
overall aileron authority, but only a little.
>
> Has anyone experimented with a way to change the reflex/droop of the
ailerons in-flight? I guess it would make them somewhat like flaperons, but
with a very limited travel, and travel both up and down. I'm not an
aeronautical engineer, and wouldn't install anything without checking with
one--or with Zenair-- but am tinkering with drawings for some kind of
adjustable spring-and-pulley or worm-gear system that might allow one to
adjust the effective length of the aileron cables, and hence reflex/droop,
in flight.
>
> It wouldn't be worth getting too complicated, but sure seems like it has
possibilities for improving performance without a lot of weight or expense.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Bob
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
I should have said mine is a 601HD. It was George Pinneo, I believe, who
first reported a significant performance change.
George, if you are still following the list, which model are you flying?
At Bob Bailey's suggestion, I looked at what I could find online re the
701,but couldn't find any drawings that showed how it worked. Is anyone on
the list familiar enough with both planes to say whether the701 flaperon
mechanism could be adapted to adjust the 601 reflex/droop?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 aileron droop/reflex
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis"
<leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Don't reflex ! I tried 2 and 4 turns on the aileron ball joints from the
> normal straight line setting and got maybe 2mph and a glide angle that
> matched the space shuttle. Reflex only works on certain airfoils. I did
not
> get a significant speed increase.
>
> Leo Corbalis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
> To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: 601 aileron droop/reflex
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller"
> <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
> >
> > Some time back there was a short discussion on the list re how reflexing
> the ailerons (raising the trailing edges a few degrees, equally on both
> sides) increased the cruise speed significantly, but also raised the stall
> speed. Drooping the ailerons did the reverse. Either will reduce the
> overall aileron authority, but only a little.
> >
> > Has anyone experimented with a way to change the reflex/droop of the
> ailerons in-flight? I guess it would make them somewhat like flaperons,
but
> with a very limited travel, and travel both up and down. I'm not an
> aeronautical engineer, and wouldn't install anything without checking with
> one--or with Zenair-- but am tinkering with drawings for some kind of
> adjustable spring-and-pulley or worm-gear system that might allow one to
> adjust the effective length of the aileron cables, and hence reflex/droop,
> in flight.
> >
> > It wouldn't be worth getting too complicated, but sure seems like it has
> possibilities for improving performance without a lot of weight or
expense.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | 601 HD aileron droop/reflex |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
My 601 HDS, Rotax 912 has been flying for 8 years. What I said was NOT to reflex;
what I said was: droop has to be "set" to a narrow range to get best airspeed
and to balance the aircraft in level, hands-off flight, much the same message
Leo Corbalis just posted.
GGP
Message 7
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| Subject: | Hole in 701 firewall for cabin heat |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Elwood140@aol.com
Hi All,
I can't seem to find anything in the documentation that locates the hole
needed in the 701 firewall for mounting the butterfly valve that connects to the
scat hose from the heater muff. Can anyone tell me where to find the
information or just where to locate the hole?
Regards,
Larry Wood
(701LW reserved and getting closer)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL FWF weight savings with TD option? |
|July 24, 2002) at 07/09/2004 04:17:54 PM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
>Thanks for the info. Those arguments sound like a compelling reason to get
a
>Tail wheel endorsement.
I had also considered going with a tailwheel model but only for asthetic
reasons. You might be loosing a nosewheel but the taildragger has larger
main gear and it is mounted forward of the center of gravity (and center of
lift)on a tailwheel aircraft vs aft of the CG with a nosewheel. I would
check with ZAC or a tailwheel builder before I made the assumption that it
would improve the CG. I know the rear battery location is still recommended
with the lyc 0-235 engine in a taildragger.
Craig S.
N601XS, 601XL lyc 0-235, wings and tail complete, fusilage 50%.
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
I'm thy guy who asked about the cordess drill a couple weeks ago. Thanks to
everyone for the helpful feedback. I ended up purchasing a DeWalt 14.4V,
which I think I will be happy with.
I have been looking for over a year for an airplane that meets the mission I
have identified for myself, and the 601 HD seems to come closest. I have
been lurking on this list for the past couple of weeks, and also searching
the archives, to try and learn more about the 601 HD from your perspective
as builders and pilots of this airplane. After doing this research I am now
having some concerns as to whether this airplane is suitable to fulfill my
mission. I was wondering if I could impose on the group to act as a
sounding board for my thoughts and assumptions.
First, here is my aircraft mission, (criteria in no particular order):
* Daytime VFR
* Safe for low-time, less skilled private pilot:
- Docile flight characteristics
- Low stall and landing speeds
- Reliable powerplant
* Ability to enjoy "low and slow" local flights
* Ability to fly occasional long cross-country flights
* 2-place (so I can take my wife along)
* Ease of maintenance
* Best possible payload, (pilot/passenger weight will be approx. 430
lbs)
* Reasonable cruise performance (but high speed is not a
requirement)
* Wide roomy cabin with excellent visibility
* Satisfies Sport Pilot reqts (in case I lose my medical)
* Within my financial means to build, own, and operate
* Durability
* Straightforward construction, within my abilities
* Relatively short build time compared to other kits
The concerns I have:
* Payload / performance - I have read comments that performance is
borderline at full gross. We plan to use our airplane to make a couple of
longer cross-country flights a year to visit family and friends in Colorado
and Arizona, (we live in Wisconsin). In order for us to travel on these
flights, I figure an optimistic estimate on luggage would be about 30 lbs,
plus another 10 lbs or so for flight gear (maps, manuals, headsets, etc.).
Our pilot/passenger weight is approx. 430 lbs, so now we are up to at least
470 lbs. of payload. I'm considering the basic HD with the Rotax 912. I am
not inclined to do a lot of improvisation - I would prefer to trust the
engineers and build it "by the book". To keep my payload as high as
possible, I would probably go with the TD (I am a former Cub-driver). Since
I can't last more than a couple of hours without having to make a potty stop
anyway, I don't see a need for the wing tanks - the header tank would do
just fine for me. I would plan on the basic panel, with the addition of a
transponder, com radio and basic GPS. Of course I would need an ELT. I
would like to add wheel pants to help improve on performance. I would also
want to add the wing lockers to help balance the baggage load. Finally, I
would want to have strobes for safety, and possibly position / landing
lights in the event I ever got caught flying after dusk. The ZAC website
shows a gross weight of 1200 lbs and a net weight of 590 lbs. Figuring 96
lbs for fuel, that leaves a payload of 514 lbs. However, I question what is
included in ZAC's empty weight - does it include any of the items I
mentioned above? If not, approx. how much weight would these items add?
Does ZAC's empty weight include oil and coolant for the Rotax, and if not,
how much weight do those items add? Assuming we come close to the max gross
weight without exceeding it, are we going to have safety issues due to poor
performance? Would we have any CG concerns?
* Airspeed - Although high speed is not a requirement, I am
disappointed to read that the majority of you are not getting even close to
the advertised 120 mph. Can I at least expect to get about 100 mph with the
configuration I am considering? Is the stall speed at full gross down near
45 mph? Are the 430 ft takeoff roll and 550 ft landing distance in the
ballpark?
I have not been able to find another 2-place aircraft that comes as close to
my mission as this one (unless I am missing something after going through
AeroCrafter at least 3 times), so I am hoping that there are no show-stopper
issues for me here. I really don't want to have to go to a 4-place airplane
to get the payload I need - a Tri-Pacer would work, but I don't want a 60
year old certified aircraft. All the 4-place kits are out of my price
range, and would cost more to insure. I am 56 now, so I don't want to wait
around too much longer before "diving in", or my opportunity will slip away.
I believe I am motivated to finish a project once I start one - I just need
to pick the right project.
I apologize for the length of this post. If this is not acceptable on this
list, please admonish me and I won't do it again. However, I really need
some seasoned advice, as I am currently "stuck".
Regards
Dave Van Lanen - "still looking"
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Thomas F Marson" <tmarson@pressenter.com>
Dave your long memo of wants and needs is well thought out.
If you hadnt put out the requirement of being sport pilot eligible I would
have said you should just buy a Skyhawk to meet your critieria. Flying it
with two passengers will meet your criteria as to range, speed and payload.
You mention trips to Colorado--------- if higher altitude airports are in
the picture, I doubt you would feel secure witht the 80 hp Rotax at full
gross.
Except for the two above statements it seems the Zenith meets your
criteria.
Personally I would like the XL better.
TomM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen"
<davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I'm thy guy who asked about the cordess drill a couple weeks ago. Thanks
to
> everyone for the helpful feedback. I ended up purchasing a DeWalt 14.4V,
> which I think I will be happy with.
>
> I have been looking for over a year for an airplane that meets the mission
I
> have identified for myself, and the 601 HD seems to come closest. I have
> been lurking on this list for the past couple of weeks, and also searching
> the archives, to try and learn more about the 601 HD from your perspective
> as builders and pilots of this airplane. After doing this research I am
now
> having some concerns as to whether this airplane is suitable to fulfill my
> mission. I was wondering if I could impose on the group to act as a
> sounding board for my thoughts and assumptions.
>
> First, here is my aircraft mission, (criteria in no particular order):
>
>
> * Daytime VFR
>
> * Safe for low-time, less skilled private pilot:
>
> - Docile flight characteristics
>
> - Low stall and landing speeds
>
> - Reliable powerplant
>
>
> * Ability to enjoy "low and slow" local flights
>
>
> * Ability to fly occasional long cross-country flights
>
>
> * 2-place (so I can take my wife along)
>
> * Ease of maintenance
>
>
> * Best possible payload, (pilot/passenger weight will be approx.
430
> lbs)
>
> * Reasonable cruise performance (but high speed is not a
> requirement)
>
>
> * Wide roomy cabin with excellent visibility
>
> * Satisfies Sport Pilot reqts (in case I lose my medical)
>
>
> * Within my financial means to build, own, and operate
>
> * Durability
>
>
> * Straightforward construction, within my abilities
>
> * Relatively short build time compared to other kits
>
>
> The concerns I have:
>
> * Payload / performance - I have read comments that performance is
> borderline at full gross. We plan to use our airplane to make a couple of
> longer cross-country flights a year to visit family and friends in
Colorado
> and Arizona, (we live in Wisconsin). In order for us to travel on these
> flights, I figure an optimistic estimate on luggage would be about 30 lbs,
> plus another 10 lbs or so for flight gear (maps, manuals, headsets, etc.).
> Our pilot/passenger weight is approx. 430 lbs, so now we are up to at
least
> 470 lbs. of payload. I'm considering the basic HD with the Rotax 912. I
am
> not inclined to do a lot of improvisation - I would prefer to trust the
> engineers and build it "by the book". To keep my payload as high as
> possible, I would probably go with the TD (I am a former Cub-driver).
Since
> I can't last more than a couple of hours without having to make a potty
stop
> anyway, I don't see a need for the wing tanks - the header tank would do
> just fine for me. I would plan on the basic panel, with the addition of a
> transponder, com radio and basic GPS. Of course I would need an ELT. I
> would like to add wheel pants to help improve on performance. I would
also
> want to add the wing lockers to help balance the baggage load. Finally, I
> would want to have strobes for safety, and possibly position / landing
> lights in the event I ever got caught flying after dusk. The ZAC website
> shows a gross weight of 1200 lbs and a net weight of 590 lbs. Figuring 96
> lbs for fuel, that leaves a payload of 514 lbs. However, I question what
is
> included in ZAC's empty weight - does it include any of the items I
> mentioned above? If not, approx. how much weight would these items add?
> Does ZAC's empty weight include oil and coolant for the Rotax, and if not,
> how much weight do those items add? Assuming we come close to the max
gross
> weight without exceeding it, are we going to have safety issues due to
poor
> performance? Would we have any CG concerns?
>
> * Airspeed - Although high speed is not a requirement, I am
> disappointed to read that the majority of you are not getting even close
to
> the advertised 120 mph. Can I at least expect to get about 100 mph with
the
> configuration I am considering? Is the stall speed at full gross down
near
> 45 mph? Are the 430 ft takeoff roll and 550 ft landing distance in the
> ballpark?
>
> I have not been able to find another 2-place aircraft that comes as close
to
> my mission as this one (unless I am missing something after going through
> AeroCrafter at least 3 times), so I am hoping that there are no
show-stopper
> issues for me here. I really don't want to have to go to a 4-place
airplane
> to get the payload I need - a Tri-Pacer would work, but I don't want a 60
> year old certified aircraft. All the 4-place kits are out of my price
> range, and would cost more to insure. I am 56 now, so I don't want to
wait
> around too much longer before "diving in", or my opportunity will slip
away.
> I believe I am motivated to finish a project once I start one - I just
need
> to pick the right project.
>
> I apologize for the length of this post. If this is not acceptable on
this
> list, please admonish me and I won't do it again. However, I really need
> some seasoned advice, as I am currently "stuck".
>
>
> Regards
>
> Dave Van Lanen - "still looking"
>
>
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