Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:15 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
2. 05:28 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Larry Martin)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex (Bob Miller)
4. 08:01 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Al Young)
5. 08:10 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Ray Montagne)
6. 09:34 AM - Re: Canopy lift struts (Clive Richards)
7. 12:24 PM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Traveling Man)
8. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
9. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Cdngoose)
10. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (F22clear@aol.com)
11. 08:36 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Larry McFarland)
12. 08:44 PM - Zodiac stall speeds. (George Swinford)
13. 09:31 PM - CH-640 will be flying soon (Jeff Paden)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
I'm not sure the HD will qualify for sport plane, the stall speed might be a bit
too high. The airplane Zenith is advertising as a sport plane candidate is the
XL. It's slightly more complex in that it has flaps and it's a bit more expensive
but the flaps reduce the stall speed by a few mph and adds ten or more
mph to the cruise speed and the extra build time required for the flaps is more
than made up for by the reduced build time for the landing gear. The zenith
web site currently lists the XL with a gross weight of 1252 lbs but this is because
the sport plane proposal specified this as the maximum. The XL was originally
designed with a gross weight of 1300 lbs before they started marketing it
as a sport plane candidate. From what I hear, the final sport plane rule may
have a higher maximum weight than the original proposal. By the time you complete
the plane, the final rule should be out and then you can decide what gross
weight to settle on. Since you are the manufacturer
, you can choose any gross weight you want, within reason. I also think you would
be better off with a 100 hp engine if you plan on any mountain flying.
--
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> First, here is my aircraft mission, (criteria in no particular order):
>
>
> * Daytime VFR
>
> * Safe for low-time, less skilled private pilot:
>
> - Docile flight characteristics
>
> - Low stall and landing speeds
>
> - Reliable powerplant
>
>
> * Ability to enjoy "low and slow" local flights
>
>
> * Ability to fly occasional long cross-country flights
>
>
> * 2-place (so I can take my wife along)
>
> * Ease of maintenance
>
>
> * Best possible payload, (pilot/passenger weight will be approx. 430
> lbs)
>
> * Reasonable cruise performance (but high speed is not a
> requirement)
>
>
> * Wide roomy cabin with excellent visibility
>
> * Satisfies Sport Pilot reqts (in case I lose my medical)
>
>
> * Within my financial means to build, own, and operate
>
> * Durability
>
>
> * Straightforward construction, within my abilities
>
> * Relatively short build time compared to other kits
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <earthloc@att.net>
Your wants/need/desires closely mimic mine when I started considering a fixed wing.
I ended up with a 701 with PegaStol wings. I fully expect to achieve a
105-110 cruise. Add wheel pants, skyshops bubble doors with a 100hp rotax and
I think you will get what you want, plus the added safety of a sky jeep. You
will have 1200 lb gross with about 600 lbs useful load. Of course you may have
your reasons for wanting a low wing, I have mine for wanting a high wing.
Just thought I would add my two cents worth.
Larry N1345L
www.anglefire.com/un/ch701
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave VanLanen
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:34 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" <davevanlanen@sbcglobal.net>
I'm thy guy who asked about the cordess drill a couple weeks ago. Thanks to
everyone for the helpful feedback. I ended up purchasing a DeWalt 14.4V,
which I think I will be happy with.
I have been looking for over a year for an airplane that meets the mission I
have identified for myself, and the 601 HD seems to come closest. I have
been lurking on this list for the past couple of weeks, and also searching
the archives, to try and learn more about the 601 HD from your perspective
as builders and pilots of this airplane. After doing this research I am now
having some concerns as to whether this airplane is suitable to fulfill my
mission. I was wondering if I could impose on the group to act as a
sounding board for my thoughts and assumptions.
First, here is my aircraft mission, (criteria in no particular order):
* Daytime VFR
* Safe for low-time, less skilled private pilot:
- Docile flight characteristics
- Low stall and landing speeds
- Reliable powerplant
* Ability to enjoy "low and slow" local flights
* Ability to fly occasional long cross-country flights
* 2-place (so I can take my wife along)
* Ease of maintenance
* Best possible payload, (pilot/passenger weight will be approx. 430
lbs)
* Reasonable cruise performance (but high speed is not a
requirement)
* Wide roomy cabin with excellent visibility
* Satisfies Sport Pilot reqts (in case I lose my medical)
* Within my financial means to build, own, and operate
* Durability
* Straightforward construction, within my abilities
* Relatively short build time compared to other kits
The concerns I have:
* Payload / performance - I have read comments that performance is
borderline at full gross. We plan to use our airplane to make a couple of
longer cross-country flights a year to visit family and friends in Colorado
and Arizona, (we live in Wisconsin). In order for us to travel on these
flights, I figure an optimistic estimate on luggage would be about 30 lbs,
plus another 10 lbs or so for flight gear (maps, manuals, headsets, etc.).
Our pilot/passenger weight is approx. 430 lbs, so now we are up to at least
470 lbs. of payload. I'm considering the basic HD with the Rotax 912. I am
not inclined to do a lot of improvisation - I would prefer to trust the
engineers and build it "by the book". To keep my payload as high as
possible, I would probably go with the TD (I am a former Cub-driver). Since
I can't last more than a couple of hours without having to make a potty stop
anyway, I don't see a need for the wing tanks - the header tank would do
just fine for me. I would plan on the basic panel, with the addition of a
transponder, com radio and basic GPS. Of course I would need an ELT. I
would like to add wheel pants to help improve on performance. I would also
want to add the wing lockers to help balance the baggage load. Finally, I
would want to have strobes for safety, and possibly position / landing
lights in the event I ever got caught flying after dusk. The ZAC website
shows a gross weight of 1200 lbs and a net weight of 590 lbs. Figuring 96
lbs for fuel, that leaves a payload of 514 lbs. However, I question what is
included in ZAC's empty weight - does it include any of the items I
mentioned above? If not, approx. how much weight would these items add?
Does ZAC's empty weight include oil and coolant for the Rotax, and if not,
how much weight do those items add? Assuming we come close to the max gross
weight without exceeding it, are we going to have safety issues due to poor
performance? Would we have any CG concerns?
* Airspeed - Although high speed is not a requirement, I am
disappointed to read that the majority of you are not getting even close to
the advertised 120 mph. Can I at least expect to get about 100 mph with the
configuration I am considering? Is the stall speed at full gross down near
45 mph? Are the 430 ft takeoff roll and 550 ft landing distance in the
ballpark?
I have not been able to find another 2-place aircraft that comes as close to
my mission as this one (unless I am missing something after going through
AeroCrafter at least 3 times), so I am hoping that there are no show-stopper
issues for me here. I really don't want to have to go to a 4-place airplane
to get the payload I need - a Tri-Pacer would work, but I don't want a 60
year old certified aircraft. All the 4-place kits are out of my price
range, and would cost more to insure. I am 56 now, so I don't want to wait
around too much longer before "diving in", or my opportunity will slip away.
I believe I am motivated to finish a project once I start one - I just need
to pick the right project.
I apologize for the length of this post. If this is not acceptable on this
list, please admonish me and I won't do it again. However, I really need
some seasoned advice, as I am currently "stuck".
Regards
Dave Van Lanen - "still looking"
---
Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" <drmiller@cvillepsychology.net>
George,
Sorry, didn't mean to misquote you. I recalled, apparently wrongly, that
you had said that the problem with reflex was that although it improved
cruise speed it increased stall speed. Sailplane pilots ofter do something
like this for cross-country flights. I'm looking for ways to get the best
performance possible, since my Jabiru 2200 engine is apparently pretty
small.
How did you determine the best "set" for your ailerons?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <george.pinneo@ngc.com>
>
> My 601 HDS, Rotax 912 has been flying for 8 years. What I said was NOT to
reflex; what I said was: droop has to be "set" to a narrow range to get best
airspeed and to balance the aircraft in level, hands-off flight, much the
same message Leo Corbalis just posted.
>
> GGP
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
Dave- Seems to me you have described the 601XL as closest to your "ideal"
choice. Many of your concerns were and are mine also. ie. Maybe loss of
medical, kids all over requiring some x country , age (i'm 67 and lo time
pilot), etc.
Suggest u go to Mexico, MO and fly the XL demo. Talk to Roger there, and he
can give you some good advice. He flies the demo XL all over the place, so
has had practical experience in XL as a cross country aircraft. Just my
thoughts
Al Young
601XL- 90% there and 40% to go.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 7/10/04 8:02 AM, "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" <armyret@one-eleven.net>
>
> Suggest u go to Mexico, MO and fly the XL demo.
Or find out the airshow schedule and if the demo XL will be near you. Roger
will schedule a demo at an airshow...
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Fuselage Under Construction
NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include
the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not
be viewable by me.
===========================================================================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy lift struts |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards" <stephen@crichards.flyer.co.uk>
Hi Richard
Ray Lasnier requires struts for his HD forward opening
canopy can you tell me where in the UK you get them & what length did you
use.
Clive Richards for Ray Lasnier G CBDG 95%
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard McLachlan" <richard@rodsley.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy lift struts
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan"
<richard@rodsley.net>
>
> You can certainly buy adjustable ones here in the UK. They come with full
> pressure in them, but there is a small valve on one end operated by an
Allen
> screw. >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" <travliman58@hotmail.com>
Hi Dave,
Your list of wants and mine seem very close, I also chose the CH601HD.
These are my reasons for choosing the HD.
Higher Gross than any of the other 601's, and yes, that includes the XL
model. When my wife and I get in we are gonna be looking a payload of about
450lbs before gas and luggage, maybe more.
The plane WILL meet Sport Pilot rules as they were propsed. After OMB is
finished, who knows what it will be? Niether Zenith nor E.A.A. are willing
to talk about it in depth, but it sounds like they aren't planning to mess
with the stall speed rating.
I'm building from plans. Building the HD model means I don't have to build
a rib form for every single rib.
Top speed is not my concern, but I'm currently planning to do a Corvair
conversion, which should result in 110 H.P. (for approx. $3000 to $4000) and
I hope to come close to Sport Pilots top allowable speed.
Since I am both diabetic and asthmatic I've decided that its Sport Pilot or
nothing for me. I completed my rudder at the January '04 workshop. I have,
and will, do nothing more on my plane until OMB passes the rule and I know
for sure that the HD will meet the specs.
If I were a bit smaller, I'd probably be looking at the 701, in fact I still
may. Theres no rule against me having more than one airplane : )
Good Luck with your decision.
Bob L.
Still waiting for OMB to pass the stinkin' rule so I can get going with this
thing!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
On the Zenith web site, the gross weight for the HD is listed as 1200 lbs, for
the XL it's listed as 1232 lbs for sport plane (it was originally 1300 lbs). The
empty weight for the HD is listed as 590 lbs and for the XL it's 690 lbs. According
to these numbers the XL has a lower payload if it's built to a 1232 lbs
gross weight but the same payload if you build it to its original gross weight
of 1300 lbs. The gross weight allowed by the sport plane rule may end up higher
than it was originally proposed so the XL may fit the rule at 1300 lbs,
we should know pretty soon one way or another.
The zenith web site lists the HD's stall speed as 44 mph at 1050 lbs, this meets
the sport plane rule's 45 mph maximum, but the stall speed is not listed for
the full gross weight of 1200 lbs. If the HD barely meets the stall speed maximum
at 1050 lbs it's probably not going to meet it at 1200 lbs. If I recall correctly,
the old flyers I have from Zenith list the stall speed for the HD as
46 mph at 1200 lbs which is just a bit too high to meet the rule. Of course
you could certify the gross weight as 1050 lbs and then the plane would qualify
under the new rule but you would be giving up 150 lbs of useful load. As was
mentioned, the stall speed maximum is one thing that is not likely to change
in the final rule.
--
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Waiting on the paperwork.
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Just one small point to add! Has ANYONE seen a HD that weights 590 lbs?
The 690 I can believe for the XL (But not My XL).
Mark Townsend
601XL EJ 2.2L
Alma, Ontario
www.ch601.org
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
The empty weight for the HD is listed as 590 lbs and for the XL it's
690 lbs.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: F22clear@aol.com
Hi
I am new to this site. I am building a 601hd project that I bough 70%
done. I am working on installing a o-200 cont. I was thinking I could goss it
at
1200 lbs and use vortex genertaors to get another 2-3 mphs slower stall
speed. What do you think? It any one flying an HD with a o-200 in it and what
kind of numbers and you getting.
Dan Rudy
601hd O-200
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: F22clear@aol.com
>
> Hi
>
I was thinking I could goss it at
> 1200 lbs and use vortex genertaors to get another 2-3 mphs slower stall
> speed. What do you think? >
> Dan Rudy
>
> 601hd O-200
Dan,
At one of the forums that Chris gave last year, vortex generators were
mentioned
and I believe these don't work effectively on a thick radius wing like the
601HD.
Do not archive
Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru w/Ram heads
Message 12
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| Subject: | Zodiac stall speeds. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" <grs-pms@comcast.net>
One thing to consider on the subject of stall speeds: Most Zodiac builders seem
to have found quite a discrepancy between the actual cruise speed and the factory
numbers, particularly on the HD and HDS models. If the reason is static source
error, as I suspect, the quoted stall speeds must also be in error. What
is needed is for someone with their ASI static port plumbed to static ports on
the fuselage or pitot head to do some careful power-off stall tests at a known
weight, CG location, temperature, pressure and altitude. Has someone already
done such tests? If so ,what are the numbers?
George Swinford
Message 13
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| Subject: | CH-640 will be flying soon |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" <jeffpaden@madbbs.com>
I just wanted to let you all know that my CH-640 project is almost ready
for ground testing.
Yes, I still have one more wing to build but that only takes a week or two.
If any of you out there are building the CH-640 I would love to hear from
you on or off this list.
You can email me directly at jeffpaden@madbbs.com if you want.
Thank you all for all the help during my building and I'll let you know when
I am ready to start my tests!
Jeff Paden
Almost completed!
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