---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/10/04: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:15 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 2. 05:28 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Larry Martin) 3. 06:05 AM - Re: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex (Bob Miller) 4. 08:01 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Al Young) 5. 08:10 AM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Ray Montagne) 6. 09:34 AM - Re: Canopy lift struts (Clive Richards) 7. 12:24 PM - Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Traveling Man) 8. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 9. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Cdngoose) 10. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (F22clear@aol.com) 11. 08:36 PM - Re: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD (Larry McFarland) 12. 08:44 PM - Zodiac stall speeds. (George Swinford) 13. 09:31 PM - CH-640 will be flying soon (Jeff Paden) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:49 AM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net I'm not sure the HD will qualify for sport plane, the stall speed might be a bit too high. The airplane Zenith is advertising as a sport plane candidate is the XL. It's slightly more complex in that it has flaps and it's a bit more expensive but the flaps reduce the stall speed by a few mph and adds ten or more mph to the cruise speed and the extra build time required for the flaps is more than made up for by the reduced build time for the landing gear. The zenith web site currently lists the XL with a gross weight of 1252 lbs but this is because the sport plane proposal specified this as the maximum. The XL was originally designed with a gross weight of 1300 lbs before they started marketing it as a sport plane candidate. From what I hear, the final sport plane rule may have a higher maximum weight than the original proposal. By the time you complete the plane, the final rule should be out and then you can decide what gross weight to settle on. Since you are the manufacturer , you can choose any gross weight you want, within reason. I also think you would be better off with a 100 hp engine if you plan on any mountain flying. -- N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Construction complete. Waiting on the paperwork. do not archive > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" > > > First, here is my aircraft mission, (criteria in no particular order): > > > * Daytime VFR > > * Safe for low-time, less skilled private pilot: > > - Docile flight characteristics > > - Low stall and landing speeds > > - Reliable powerplant > > > * Ability to enjoy "low and slow" local flights > > > * Ability to fly occasional long cross-country flights > > > * 2-place (so I can take my wife along) > > * Ease of maintenance > > > * Best possible payload, (pilot/passenger weight will be approx. 430 > lbs) > > * Reasonable cruise performance (but high speed is not a > requirement) > > > * Wide roomy cabin with excellent visibility > > * Satisfies Sport Pilot reqts (in case I lose my medical) > > > * Within my financial means to build, own, and operate > > * Durability > > > * Straightforward construction, within my abilities > > * Relatively short build time compared to other kits > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:38 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" Your wants/need/desires closely mimic mine when I started considering a fixed wing. I ended up with a 701 with PegaStol wings. I fully expect to achieve a 105-110 cruise. Add wheel pants, skyshops bubble doors with a 100hp rotax and I think you will get what you want, plus the added safety of a sky jeep. You will have 1200 lb gross with about 600 lbs useful load. Of course you may have your reasons for wanting a low wing, I have mine for wanting a high wing. Just thought I would add my two cents worth. Larry N1345L www.anglefire.com/un/ch701 ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave VanLanen To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave VanLanen" I'm thy guy who asked about the cordess drill a couple weeks ago. Thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback. I ended up purchasing a DeWalt 14.4V, which I think I will be happy with. I have been looking for over a year for an airplane that meets the mission I have identified for myself, and the 601 HD seems to come closest. I have been lurking on this list for the past couple of weeks, and also searching the archives, to try and learn more about the 601 HD from your perspective as builders and pilots of this airplane. After doing this research I am now having some concerns as to whether this airplane is suitable to fulfill my mission. I was wondering if I could impose on the group to act as a sounding board for my thoughts and assumptions. First, here is my aircraft mission, (criteria in no particular order): * Daytime VFR * Safe for low-time, less skilled private pilot: - Docile flight characteristics - Low stall and landing speeds - Reliable powerplant * Ability to enjoy "low and slow" local flights * Ability to fly occasional long cross-country flights * 2-place (so I can take my wife along) * Ease of maintenance * Best possible payload, (pilot/passenger weight will be approx. 430 lbs) * Reasonable cruise performance (but high speed is not a requirement) * Wide roomy cabin with excellent visibility * Satisfies Sport Pilot reqts (in case I lose my medical) * Within my financial means to build, own, and operate * Durability * Straightforward construction, within my abilities * Relatively short build time compared to other kits The concerns I have: * Payload / performance - I have read comments that performance is borderline at full gross. We plan to use our airplane to make a couple of longer cross-country flights a year to visit family and friends in Colorado and Arizona, (we live in Wisconsin). In order for us to travel on these flights, I figure an optimistic estimate on luggage would be about 30 lbs, plus another 10 lbs or so for flight gear (maps, manuals, headsets, etc.). Our pilot/passenger weight is approx. 430 lbs, so now we are up to at least 470 lbs. of payload. I'm considering the basic HD with the Rotax 912. I am not inclined to do a lot of improvisation - I would prefer to trust the engineers and build it "by the book". To keep my payload as high as possible, I would probably go with the TD (I am a former Cub-driver). Since I can't last more than a couple of hours without having to make a potty stop anyway, I don't see a need for the wing tanks - the header tank would do just fine for me. I would plan on the basic panel, with the addition of a transponder, com radio and basic GPS. Of course I would need an ELT. I would like to add wheel pants to help improve on performance. I would also want to add the wing lockers to help balance the baggage load. Finally, I would want to have strobes for safety, and possibly position / landing lights in the event I ever got caught flying after dusk. The ZAC website shows a gross weight of 1200 lbs and a net weight of 590 lbs. Figuring 96 lbs for fuel, that leaves a payload of 514 lbs. However, I question what is included in ZAC's empty weight - does it include any of the items I mentioned above? If not, approx. how much weight would these items add? Does ZAC's empty weight include oil and coolant for the Rotax, and if not, how much weight do those items add? Assuming we come close to the max gross weight without exceeding it, are we going to have safety issues due to poor performance? Would we have any CG concerns? * Airspeed - Although high speed is not a requirement, I am disappointed to read that the majority of you are not getting even close to the advertised 120 mph. Can I at least expect to get about 100 mph with the configuration I am considering? Is the stall speed at full gross down near 45 mph? Are the 430 ft takeoff roll and 550 ft landing distance in the ballpark? I have not been able to find another 2-place aircraft that comes as close to my mission as this one (unless I am missing something after going through AeroCrafter at least 3 times), so I am hoping that there are no show-stopper issues for me here. I really don't want to have to go to a 4-place airplane to get the payload I need - a Tri-Pacer would work, but I don't want a 60 year old certified aircraft. All the 4-place kits are out of my price range, and would cost more to insure. I am 56 now, so I don't want to wait around too much longer before "diving in", or my opportunity will slip away. I believe I am motivated to finish a project once I start one - I just need to pick the right project. I apologize for the length of this post. If this is not acceptable on this list, please admonish me and I won't do it again. However, I really need some seasoned advice, as I am currently "stuck". Regards Dave Van Lanen - "still looking" --- Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:07 AM PST US From: "Bob Miller" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bob Miller" George, Sorry, didn't mean to misquote you. I recalled, apparently wrongly, that you had said that the problem with reflex was that although it improved cruise speed it increased stall speed. Sailplane pilots ofter do something like this for cross-country flights. I'm looking for ways to get the best performance possible, since my Jabiru 2200 engine is apparently pretty small. How did you determine the best "set" for your ailerons? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 HD aileron droop/reflex > --> Zenith-List message posted by: > > My 601 HDS, Rotax 912 has been flying for 8 years. What I said was NOT to reflex; what I said was: droop has to be "set" to a narrow range to get best airspeed and to balance the aircraft in level, hands-off flight, much the same message Leo Corbalis just posted. > > GGP > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:12 AM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Dave- Seems to me you have described the 601XL as closest to your "ideal" choice. Many of your concerns were and are mine also. ie. Maybe loss of medical, kids all over requiring some x country , age (i'm 67 and lo time pilot), etc. Suggest u go to Mexico, MO and fly the XL demo. Talk to Roger there, and he can give you some good advice. He flies the demo XL all over the place, so has had practical experience in XL as a cross country aircraft. Just my thoughts Al Young 601XL- 90% there and 40% to go. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD From: Ray Montagne --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne On 7/10/04 8:02 AM, "Al Young" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" > > Suggest u go to Mexico, MO and fly the XL demo. Or find out the airshow schedule and if the demo XL will be near you. Roger will schedule a demo at an airshow... DO NOT ARCHIVE Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA =========================================================================== Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Left Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Fuselage Under Construction NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' will be rejected and will not be viewable by me. =========================================================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:46 AM PST US From: "Clive Richards" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy lift struts --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Clive Richards" Hi Richard Ray Lasnier requires struts for his HD forward opening canopy can you tell me where in the UK you get them & what length did you use. Clive Richards for Ray Lasnier G CBDG 95% do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Canopy lift struts > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > You can certainly buy adjustable ones here in the UK. They come with full > pressure in them, but there is a small valve on one end operated by an Allen > screw. > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:23 PM PST US From: "Traveling Man" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Traveling Man" Hi Dave, Your list of wants and mine seem very close, I also chose the CH601HD. These are my reasons for choosing the HD. Higher Gross than any of the other 601's, and yes, that includes the XL model. When my wife and I get in we are gonna be looking a payload of about 450lbs before gas and luggage, maybe more. The plane WILL meet Sport Pilot rules as they were propsed. After OMB is finished, who knows what it will be? Niether Zenith nor E.A.A. are willing to talk about it in depth, but it sounds like they aren't planning to mess with the stall speed rating. I'm building from plans. Building the HD model means I don't have to build a rib form for every single rib. Top speed is not my concern, but I'm currently planning to do a Corvair conversion, which should result in 110 H.P. (for approx. $3000 to $4000) and I hope to come close to Sport Pilots top allowable speed. Since I am both diabetic and asthmatic I've decided that its Sport Pilot or nothing for me. I completed my rudder at the January '04 workshop. I have, and will, do nothing more on my plane until OMB passes the rule and I know for sure that the HD will meet the specs. If I were a bit smaller, I'd probably be looking at the 701, in fact I still may. Theres no rule against me having more than one airplane : ) Good Luck with your decision. Bob L. Still waiting for OMB to pass the stinkin' rule so I can get going with this thing! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:27 PM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net On the Zenith web site, the gross weight for the HD is listed as 1200 lbs, for the XL it's listed as 1232 lbs for sport plane (it was originally 1300 lbs). The empty weight for the HD is listed as 590 lbs and for the XL it's 690 lbs. According to these numbers the XL has a lower payload if it's built to a 1232 lbs gross weight but the same payload if you build it to its original gross weight of 1300 lbs. The gross weight allowed by the sport plane rule may end up higher than it was originally proposed so the XL may fit the rule at 1300 lbs, we should know pretty soon one way or another. The zenith web site lists the HD's stall speed as 44 mph at 1050 lbs, this meets the sport plane rule's 45 mph maximum, but the stall speed is not listed for the full gross weight of 1200 lbs. If the HD barely meets the stall speed maximum at 1050 lbs it's probably not going to meet it at 1200 lbs. If I recall correctly, the old flyers I have from Zenith list the stall speed for the HD as 46 mph at 1200 lbs which is just a bit too high to meet the rule. Of course you could certify the gross weight as 1050 lbs and then the plane would qualify under the new rule but you would be giving up 150 lbs of useful load. As was mentioned, the stall speed maximum is one thing that is not likely to change in the final rule. -- N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Construction complete. Waiting on the paperwork. do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:28 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Just one small point to add! Has ANYONE seen a HD that weights 590 lbs? The 690 I can believe for the XL (But not My XL). Mark Townsend 601XL EJ 2.2L Alma, Ontario www.ch601.org do not archive -----Original Message----- The empty weight for the HD is listed as 590 lbs and for the XL it's 690 lbs. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:56 PM PST US From: F22clear@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: F22clear@aol.com Hi I am new to this site. I am building a 601hd project that I bough 70% done. I am working on installing a o-200 cont. I was thinking I could goss it at 1200 lbs and use vortex genertaors to get another 2-3 mphs slower stall speed. What do you think? It any one flying an HD with a o-200 in it and what kind of numbers and you getting. Dan Rudy 601hd O-200 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:38 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Concerns About Suitability Of 601 HD > --> Zenith-List message posted by: F22clear@aol.com > > Hi > I was thinking I could goss it at > 1200 lbs and use vortex genertaors to get another 2-3 mphs slower stall > speed. What do you think? > > Dan Rudy > > 601hd O-200 Dan, At one of the forums that Chris gave last year, vortex generators were mentioned and I believe these don't work effectively on a thick radius wing like the 601HD. Do not archive Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru w/Ram heads ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:04 PM PST US From: "George Swinford" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac stall speeds. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" One thing to consider on the subject of stall speeds: Most Zodiac builders seem to have found quite a discrepancy between the actual cruise speed and the factory numbers, particularly on the HD and HDS models. If the reason is static source error, as I suspect, the quoted stall speeds must also be in error. What is needed is for someone with their ASI static port plumbed to static ports on the fuselage or pitot head to do some careful power-off stall tests at a known weight, CG location, temperature, pressure and altitude. Has someone already done such tests? If so ,what are the numbers? George Swinford ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:48 PM PST US From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: CH-640 will be flying soon --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" I just wanted to let you all know that my CH-640 project is almost ready for ground testing. Yes, I still have one more wing to build but that only takes a week or two. If any of you out there are building the CH-640 I would love to hear from you on or off this list. You can email me directly at jeffpaden@madbbs.com if you want. Thank you all for all the help during my building and I'll let you know when I am ready to start my tests! Jeff Paden Almost completed!