Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:07 AM - Lycoming O-320 for sale (Jeff Paden)
2. 07:21 AM - Re: Aluminum sheet question (88tierra)
3. 08:13 AM - Re: XL longer range? (caspainhower@aep.com)
4. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: XL longer range? (Ozarkseller2@aol.com)
5. 08:30 AM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Lawrence Webber)
6. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: XL longer range? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
7. 09:24 AM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
8. 10:00 AM - Re: Alumin angle 701 spar caps sources?? ()
9. 10:44 AM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 02:26 PM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Bryan Martin)
11. 03:06 PM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
12. 03:48 PM - What a drag..:) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
13. 04:37 PM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Bryan Martin)
14. 04:39 PM - Re: What a drag..:) (Larry McFarland)
15. 04:44 PM - Re: What a drag..:) (Bryan Martin)
16. 04:44 PM - Re: What a drag..:) (The Meiste's)
17. 04:57 PM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
18. 05:05 PM - Re: What a drag..:) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 05:06 PM - Re: What a drag..:) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
20. 06:17 PM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 08/11/04 (HeatonHE@aol.com)
21. 06:32 PM - Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 (Tim & Diane Shankland)
22. 06:35 PM - Re: Alumin angle 701 spar caps sources?? (Tim & Diane Shankland)
23. 09:35 PM - Re: Aluminum sheet question (Brett)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Lycoming O-320 for sale |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" <jeffpaden@madbbs.com>
I have a Lycoming O-320 150 hp engine with about 200 hours SMO for sale if
anyone is interested please email me off list at jeffpaden@madbbs.com
This is the engine that was in my CH-300 at the time of my accident. The
engine was not running when I hit the trees and I have had an AP check the
engine over to make sure that it is still a good engine. It is too small
for my CH-640 and I already have installed a 260 hp engine in my new
aircraft.
Jeff Paden
CH-640 builder 99% completed!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Aluminum sheet question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "88tierra" <lnk@cis.net>
I'm far from that stage but I sure would like a copy.
BTW, nice to meet you and see your booth at OSH.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
I have some paper patterns for the front canopy flashing if you need
one. I did them on my plotter. They can be a little tricky to get
right.
Thanks
Brett Ray
www.hog-air.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: XL longer range? |
|July 24, 2002) at 08/12/2004 11:10:28 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: caspainhower@aep.com
>Since I am only 135 lb. and expect to often fly extended trips alone,
I would appreciate any suggestions or comments concerning increasing XL
fuel
capacity beyond the factory 24 gal. Thanks!
I installed the extra wing tanks to bring the capacity to 48 gal. I plan to
use the extended capacity when I fly alone. I'm installing the 0-235 and
can easily go 4+ hrs without needing a break. It was a little extra work
to install but well worth it for me.
Craig S.
N601XS, 0-235 lyc
This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it from the
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use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original
message.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: XL longer range? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ozarkseller2@aol.com
In a message dated 8/12/2004 10:14:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
caspainhower@aep.com writes:
> I installed the extra wing tanks to bring the capacity to 48 gal. I plan to
> use the extended capacity when I fly alone. I'm installing the 0-235 and
> can easily go 4+ hrs without needing a break. It was a little extra work
> to install but well worth it for me.
Thanks. I'm now planning to do the same, except with Corvair power, for 8+
hour range.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lawrence Webber" <lawrencewebber@hotmail.com>
I am chapter pres EAA 1363 Rhode Island we have several aircraft using that engine
and all luv them good choice good luck with choice i am also a 601 xl builder
my engine of choice if it checks out mechanically is a Lycoming o-290g 125
hp standard
LarryFrom: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net Reply-To: zenith-list@matronics.com To:
zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:17:38 -0400 -- Zenith-List message posted by: Jim
and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net At 07:19 AM 8/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: -- Zenith-List
message posted by: "Todd Sarah Baslee" twbaslee@sbcglobal.net Hello
list, I have recently come across a Subaru EA82 Turbocharged engine with
about 70 aircraft hours on it in very good shape. It even has the PSRU. What
do you think one would be worth? and Do you think it is one of the better auto
to aircraft engines to use for an experimental aircraft? Thanks for the help,
Todd Baslee Lots of power Wider than the ea81 by about 4 inches Its heavy
fwf will be 300lbs
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: XL longer range? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I was about to say 12 gallons an hour through an o235 is quite an
achievement!
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Ozarkseller2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL longer range?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ozarkseller2@aol.com
In a message dated 8/12/2004 10:14:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
caspainhower@aep.com writes:
> I installed the extra wing tanks to bring the capacity to 48 gal. I
> plan to use the extended capacity when I fly alone. I'm installing
> the 0-235 and can easily go 4+ hrs without needing a break. It was a
> little extra work to install but well worth it for me.
Thanks. I'm now planning to do the same, except with Corvair power, for
8+
hour range.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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==
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
There is just one thing that gets overlooked when using water cooled
engines...Drag!
Note the subarus in RV's end up costing them about 25mph in cruise
speed. It won't be as much in a ZAC but don't blindly install this
engine expecting the same performance as an aircooled plane. It all
depends on how sensitive the airframe is to cooling drag.
To explain further, the average cylinder head temp on an aircooled motor
is around 350F. The air to cool it comes in at say 100F on a hot day.
The water cooled motor radiator runs around 200 to 220F but the cooling
air is still 100F.
I.e 2.5 or so times the temperature difference.
As the heat rejected (power) is directly proportional to the temperature
difference and cooling flowrate, you will need 2.5 times airflow through
the rad on a water cooled motor than you will on an aircooled...This
sadly turns into drag...:(
Don't make much difference on my HDS but it may become more significant
on the Xl.
Frank
HDS Stratus with Ram heads 340 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence
Webber
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lawrence Webber"
--> <lawrencewebber@hotmail.com>
I am chapter pres EAA 1363 Rhode Island we have several aircraft using
that engine and all luv them good choice good luck with choice i am also
a 601 xl builder my engine of choice if it checks out mechanically is a
Lycoming o-290g 125 hp standard
LarryFrom: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net Reply-To:
zenith-list@matronics.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re:
Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:17:38
-0400 -- Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net
At 07:19 AM 8/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: -- Zenith-List message posted
by: "Todd Sarah Baslee" twbaslee@sbcglobal.net Hello list, I
have recently come across a Subaru EA82 Turbocharged engine with about
70 aircraft hours on it in very good shape. It even has the PSRU. What
do you think one would be worth? and Do you think it is one of the
better auto to aircraft engines to use for an experimental aircraft?
Thanks for the help, Todd Baslee Lots of power Wider than the ea81 by
about 4 inches Its heavy fwf will be 300lbs
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alumin angle 701 spar caps sources?? |
Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:59:28 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
Here's a question that (for the moment) has me stumped: I'm using 3/4x3/4, 1/8
thick aluminum extrusions for the lower front longerons in the rear fuselage,
but when I try to bend them to fit the cockpit floor curve, they tend to twist
as they are bent, and wind up about 1.5" above level. How do you bend them and
keep them flat on the table?
Paul Rodriguez
601XL, Corvair powered
Working on the fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Condon<mailto:pcondon@mitre.org>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alumin angle 701 spar caps sources??
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" <pcondon@mitre.org<mailto:pcondon@mitre.org>>
Take a close look at the aircraft extrusion aluminum angle and you will
notice a radius on the inside of the formed, extruded angle. Hardware store
angle aluminum doesn't have this(alloy is not the same ether). The radius
adds to the strength of the angle extrusion as well as the proper alloy its
extruded from.
I think the answer here is use what's available, what you can get. I like
the extrusion answer...buy some extra stock for all the little brackets and
whatever your almost certainly going to need to make in the future
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com<mailto:jon@joncroke.com>>
>
> >
> > You can take some .093 sheet and put it in a break. Then shear it to
> > 3/4 x 3/4 That is what Zenith does I belive.
> > you are only talking about a half a pound more or so for 10' of
> > the .125 over the .093
> >
> >
> That raises an interesting question......
>
> Generally speaking: is extruded angle the same strength as a similar metal
> composition but in bend sheet form of the same dimension????
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I should point out the theoretical 2.5 times number is exactly
that...theoretical...the flowrate will be higher than the aircooled
motor but the 2.5 number is not a given because it depends on how
effective the heat transfer is between the aircooled and water cooled
engines.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
--> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
There is just one thing that gets overlooked when using water cooled
engines...Drag!
Note the subarus in RV's end up costing them about 25mph in cruise
speed. It won't be as much in a ZAC but don't blindly install this
engine expecting the same performance as an aircooled plane. It all
depends on how sensitive the airframe is to cooling drag.
To explain further, the average cylinder head temp on an aircooled motor
is around 350F. The air to cool it comes in at say 100F on a hot day.
The water cooled motor radiator runs around 200 to 220F but the cooling
air is still 100F.
I.e 2.5 or so times the temperature difference.
As the heat rejected (power) is directly proportional to the temperature
difference and cooling flowrate, you will need 2.5 times airflow through
the rad on a water cooled motor than you will on an aircooled...This
sadly turns into drag...:(
Don't make much difference on my HDS but it may become more significant
on the Xl.
Frank
HDS Stratus with Ram heads 340 hours
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence
Webber
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lawrence Webber"
--> <lawrencewebber@hotmail.com>
I am chapter pres EAA 1363 Rhode Island we have several aircraft using
that engine and all luv them good choice good luck with choice i am also
a 601 xl builder my engine of choice if it checks out mechanically is a
Lycoming o-290g 125 hp standard
LarryFrom: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net Reply-To:
zenith-list@matronics.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re:
Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:17:38
-0400 -- Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net
At 07:19 AM 8/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: -- Zenith-List message posted
by: "Todd Sarah Baslee" twbaslee@sbcglobal.net Hello list, I
have recently come across a Subaru EA82 Turbocharged engine with about
70 aircraft hours on it in very good shape. It even has the PSRU. What
do you think one would be worth? and Do you think it is one of the
better auto to aircraft engines to use for an experimental aircraft?
Thanks for the help, Todd Baslee Lots of power Wider than the ea81 by
about 4 inches Its heavy fwf will be 300lbs
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 12:24 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> There is just one thing that gets overlooked when using water cooled
> engines...Drag!
>
> Note the subarus in RV's end up costing them about 25mph in cruise
> speed. It won't be as much in a ZAC but don't blindly install this
> engine expecting the same performance as an aircooled plane. It all
> depends on how sensitive the airframe is to cooling drag.
>
> To explain further, the average cylinder head temp on an aircooled motor
> is around 350F. The air to cool it comes in at say 100F on a hot day.
> The water cooled motor radiator runs around 200 to 220F but the cooling
> air is still 100F.
>
> I.e 2.5 or so times the temperature difference.
>
> As the heat rejected (power) is directly proportional to the temperature
> difference and cooling flowrate, you will need 2.5 times airflow through
> the rad on a water cooled motor than you will on an aircooled...This
> sadly turns into drag...:(
>
> Don't make much difference on my HDS but it may become more significant
> on the Xl.
>
> Frank
> HDS Stratus with Ram heads 340 hours
>
A water cooled engine installation with a properly designed cooling system
can have less cooling drag than an air cooled installation. The P-51 Mustang
had nearly zero cooling drag. The designers were able to use the rejected
heat in the cooling duct to produce almost enough thrust to offset the
cooling drag. This is difficult to do with an air cooled installation. The
Spitfire was another example of good cooling design.
One of the reasons an air cooled engine runs hotter than a water cooled
engine is because air cooling is so much less efficient than water cooling.
A radiator is a much more efficient heat exchanger than the cooling fins on
aircraft cylinders and heads and the region directly behind the prop is not
the ideal location for a cooling inlet but that's pretty much what you're
stuck with for an air cooled installation.
Because air cooled engines have been much more common than water cooled
engines in aircraft for several decades, the techniques to needed to keep
air cooled engines cool are much more familiar than the techniques needed to
keep water cooled installations cool. Many people try to use techniques that
work for air cooled engines on water cooled installations only to end up
with either poor cooling or excessive drag. The lessons of the Mustang and
Spitfire have been largely forgotten.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
But in real life very very few homebuilt airplanes end up with proper
designed cooling systems and in real life with all the factors taken
into account (including using the cowl openings the same as aircooled
engines) water cooled motors end up with more drag.
On pretty fast airplanes such as RV's there has yet to be a low drag
water cooled install. Not saying it can't be done but it will be a lot
of development work.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 12:24 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at
frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> There is just one thing that gets overlooked when using water cooled
> engines...Drag!
>
> Note the subarus in RV's end up costing them about 25mph in cruise
> speed. It won't be as much in a ZAC but don't blindly install this
> engine expecting the same performance as an aircooled plane. It all
> depends on how sensitive the airframe is to cooling drag.
>
> To explain further, the average cylinder head temp on an aircooled
> motor is around 350F. The air to cool it comes in at say 100F on a hot
> day. The water cooled motor radiator runs around 200 to 220F but the
> cooling air is still 100F.
>
> I.e 2.5 or so times the temperature difference.
>
> As the heat rejected (power) is directly proportional to the
> temperature difference and cooling flowrate, you will need 2.5 times
> airflow through the rad on a water cooled motor than you will on an
> aircooled...This sadly turns into drag...:(
>
> Don't make much difference on my HDS but it may become more
> significant on the Xl.
>
> Frank
> HDS Stratus with Ram heads 340 hours
>
A water cooled engine installation with a properly designed cooling
system can have less cooling drag than an air cooled installation. The
P-51 Mustang had nearly zero cooling drag. The designers were able to
use the rejected heat in the cooling duct to produce almost enough
thrust to offset the cooling drag. This is difficult to do with an air
cooled installation. The Spitfire was another example of good cooling
design.
One of the reasons an air cooled engine runs hotter than a water cooled
engine is because air cooling is so much less efficient than water
cooling. A radiator is a much more efficient heat exchanger than the
cooling fins on aircraft cylinders and heads and the region directly
behind the prop is not the ideal location for a cooling inlet but that's
pretty much what you're stuck with for an air cooled installation.
Because air cooled engines have been much more common than water cooled
engines in aircraft for several decades, the techniques to needed to
keep air cooled engines cool are much more familiar than the techniques
needed to keep water cooled installations cool. Many people try to use
techniques that work for air cooled engines on water cooled
installations only to end up with either poor cooling or excessive drag.
The lessons of the Mustang and Spitfire have been largely forgotten.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 12
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Just a thought on the subject of drag...
Has anyone with a Stratus (or other water cooled motor) tried simply
blanking the cowl opening holes off with a piece of sheet metal or other
device and measured the effect on cruise speed?
The openings are monstrous in size (clearly meant for the Rotax) and
basically not needed except for small openings to pressurize the carbs.
Of course using a flat sheet will not be optimum in terms of shape but
stopping all that air going through the cowl should show some kind of
improvement as it will reduce drag.
If indeed some increase in speed is realised, it will indicate if
cutting the nose of the cowl off and fairing it down to the spinner will
be of benefit further benefit.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 12:24 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at
frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> There is just one thing that gets overlooked when using water cooled
> engines...Drag!
>
> Note the subarus in RV's end up costing them about 25mph in cruise
> speed. It won't be as much in a ZAC but don't blindly install this
> engine expecting the same performance as an aircooled plane. It all
> depends on how sensitive the airframe is to cooling drag.
>
> To explain further, the average cylinder head temp on an aircooled
> motor is around 350F. The air to cool it comes in at say 100F on a hot
> day. The water cooled motor radiator runs around 200 to 220F but the
> cooling air is still 100F.
>
> I.e 2.5 or so times the temperature difference.
>
> As the heat rejected (power) is directly proportional to the
> temperature difference and cooling flowrate, you will need 2.5 times
> airflow through the rad on a water cooled motor than you will on an
> aircooled...This sadly turns into drag...:(
>
> Don't make much difference on my HDS but it may become more
> significant on the Xl.
>
> Frank
> HDS Stratus with Ram heads 340 hours
>
A water cooled engine installation with a properly designed cooling
system can have less cooling drag than an air cooled installation. The
P-51 Mustang had nearly zero cooling drag. The designers were able to
use the rejected heat in the cooling duct to produce almost enough
thrust to offset the cooling drag. This is difficult to do with an air
cooled installation. The Spitfire was another example of good cooling
design.
One of the reasons an air cooled engine runs hotter than a water cooled
engine is because air cooling is so much less efficient than water
cooling. A radiator is a much more efficient heat exchanger than the
cooling fins on aircraft cylinders and heads and the region directly
behind the prop is not the ideal location for a cooling inlet but that's
pretty much what you're stuck with for an air cooled installation.
Because air cooled engines have been much more common than water cooled
engines in aircraft for several decades, the techniques to needed to
keep air cooled engines cool are much more familiar than the techniques
needed to keep water cooled installations cool. Many people try to use
techniques that work for air cooled engines on water cooled
installations only to end up with either poor cooling or excessive drag.
The lessons of the Mustang and Spitfire have been largely forgotten.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 6:05 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> But in real life very very few homebuilt airplanes end up with proper
> designed cooling systems and in real life with all the factors taken
> into account (including using the cowl openings the same as aircooled
> engines) water cooled motors end up with more drag.
True.
>
> On pretty fast airplanes such as RV's there has yet to be a low drag
> water cooled install. Not saying it can't be done but it will be a lot
> of development work.
>
> Frank
>
Most of the development work has already been done, it just has to be dug
out of the archives. See:
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems1.html
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems2.html
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems3.html
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems4.html
These reference an article from the October 1992 EAA Experimenter magazine I
believe.
To do it right though, you need to run the plumbing a fair distance from the
engine which adds some weight and complexity. Most people are still trying
to stuff it all inside the cowling, a solution that never did work all that
well.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: What a drag..:) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
I agree Frank, the openings could be an inch tall and extend from a faired
prop backing to the current edge for those of us who left the radiator out
on
the belly. It'd probably make a quieter airplane too.
Saw an interesting concept in drag-reduction at Oshkosh this year. It was a
radiator
that was hung parallel to the planes belly at 1-1/2" or more of clearance.
The nose
of the radiator was faired in a single 20-degree angled aluminum plate that
had longitudinal slots in it for
about a 20% relief. The 12" plate pushed most of the air away from the
radiator, while the slots
allowed some air thru, but the ratio was such that an even distribution low
pressure area was created below the radiator and the air passing between the
rad and the belly was drawn through by this low pressure plate. Simple and
I'd guess it was way more drag-efficient than my angled radiator with P51
type scoop and louvers.
Larry
Do not archive
> Has anyone with a Stratus (or other water cooled motor) tried simply
> blanking the cowl opening holes off with a piece of sheet metal or other
> device and measured the effect on cruise speed?
>
> The openings are monstrous in size (clearly meant for the Rotax) and
> basically not needed except for small openings to pressurize the carbs.
>
> Frank
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: What a drag..:) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 6:47 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Just a thought on the subject of drag...
>
> Has anyone with a Stratus (or other water cooled motor) tried simply
> blanking the cowl opening holes off with a piece of sheet metal or other
> device and measured the effect on cruise speed?
>
> If indeed some increase in speed is realised, it will indicate if
> cutting the nose of the cowl off and fairing it down to the spinner will
> be of benefit further benefit.
>
> Frank
>
I may try something like that when I get into my test flights. The thing is,
you not only need air for the carbs, you should have some cooling air for
the electronic ignition modules, the hotter they run, the shorter their
lifespan.
When I modified the cowl to fit my engine, I left out the hole in front of
the oil pan, I can add it back in later if I need it. If I don't need it, I
should have less drag.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: What a drag..:) |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
> Has anyone with a Stratus (or other water cooled motor) tried simply
> blanking the cowl opening holes off with a piece of sheet metal or other
> device and measured the effect on cruise speed?
Frank,
I have "thought" about it but have not actually done it yet. I was planning
on getting out the 200 MPH tape & slowly work my way in with the tape with
each flight. I'd hate to pass the 200 MPH barrier in my HD & have the tape
come loose, but I'm very curious as to what effect this will have on speed &
temps. Like you I'm thinking this fish mouth is really killing my speed!
Kelly
do not achieve
Message 17
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| Subject: | Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
True too...(but remember you simply can't get near drag free
system)...Its a lot of power than needs to be dumped into the cooling
medium (air) and that gets harder to do the lower the temperature. Air
going though a rad means drag.
Most of us are also FWF builders (we like to slap a pre engineered
package on the front of a pre-engineered airframe) so actually
constructing the airscoop and running the hoses doesn't happen.
These articles were of great interest to me 6 years ago...Did I do
anything about it?...NO I simply slapped the ZAC solution in place and
went flying...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 6:05 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at
frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> But in real life very very few homebuilt airplanes end up with proper
> designed cooling systems and in real life with all the factors taken
> into account (including using the cowl openings the same as aircooled
> engines) water cooled motors end up with more drag.
True.
>
> On pretty fast airplanes such as RV's there has yet to be a low drag
> water cooled install. Not saying it can't be done but it will be a lot
> of development work.
>
> Frank
>
Most of the development work has already been done, it just has to be
dug out of the archives. See:
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems1.html
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems2.html
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems3.html
http://www.bewersdorff.com/wankel/radiator/CoolingSystems4.html
These reference an article from the October 1992 EAA Experimenter
magazine I believe.
To do it right though, you need to run the plumbing a fair distance from
the engine which adds some weight and complexity. Most people are still
trying to stuff it all inside the cowling, a solution that never did
work all that well.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Well the gains may not be very high, the thick corded wings are the
biggest drag but even 2 or 3 mph would help.
Do not archive
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of The
Meiste's
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What a drag..:)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Meiste's" <meiste@essex1.com>
> Has anyone with a Stratus (or other water cooled motor) tried simply
> blanking the cowl opening holes off with a piece of sheet metal or
> other device and measured the effect on cruise speed?
Frank,
I have "thought" about it but have not actually done it yet. I was
planning on getting out the 200 MPH tape & slowly work my way in with
the tape with each flight. I'd hate to pass the 200 MPH barrier in my HD
& have the tape come loose, but I'm very curious as to what effect this
will have on speed & temps. Like you I'm thinking this fish mouth is
really killing my speed!
Kelly
do not achieve
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
True...:)....but Sadly you will need it!
Do not archive
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Martin
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: What a drag..:)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin
--> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
on 8/12/04 6:47 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) at
frank.hinde@hp.com
wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Just a thought on the subject of drag...
>
> Has anyone with a Stratus (or other water cooled motor) tried simply
> blanking the cowl opening holes off with a piece of sheet metal or
> other device and measured the effect on cruise speed?
>
> If indeed some increase in speed is realised, it will indicate if
> cutting the nose of the cowl off and fairing it down to the spinner
> will be of benefit further benefit.
>
> Frank
>
I may try something like that when I get into my test flights. The thing
is, you not only need air for the carbs, you should have some cooling
air for the electronic ignition modules, the hotter they run, the
shorter their lifespan.
When I modified the cowl to fit my engine, I left out the hole in front
of the oil pan, I can add it back in later if I need it. If I don't need
it, I should have less drag.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
Construction complete.
Getting the paperwork in order.
do not archive.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 08/11/04 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: HeatonHE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/12/2004 1:01:51 AM Mountain Standard Time,
zenith-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
I am making my form blocks for a 601XL.Did anyone use
a computer program and printer to plot them,if so can
you send me the file?
Nick,
I plotted the wing ribs in AutoCAD. I can send the plots to you as .dwg,
.dxf or .pdf files. Which do you prefer?
Herb Heaton
601XL just started
Colorado Springs, CO
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@megsinet.net>
It's not quite that simple. I too though that the higher temperature
differential would be the controlling factor for the amount of air
needed. While up at Oshkosh this year I attended a seminar on the
comparison of air and water cooled engines. If I can figure out where I
put the handout I'd give you the name of the fellow that gave the talk.
He was a long time engineer for Cessna. Anyway he found that air-cooled
engines transfer heat very poorly. This is due to the thickness of the
fins. The must have a minimum thickness for structural purposes and the
longer they are the more difficult it is to get the heat to the end. The
end result was that a radiator with its very thin skin is much more
efficient and that negates the temperature advantage of n air cooled engine.
Tim Shankland
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>There is just one thing that gets overlooked when using water cooled
>engines...Drag!
>
>Note the subarus in RV's end up costing them about 25mph in cruise
>speed. It won't be as much in a ZAC but don't blindly install this
>engine expecting the same performance as an aircooled plane. It all
>depends on how sensitive the airframe is to cooling drag.
>
>To explain further, the average cylinder head temp on an aircooled motor
>is around 350F. The air to cool it comes in at say 100F on a hot day.
>The water cooled motor radiator runs around 200 to 220F but the cooling
>air is still 100F.
>
>I.e 2.5 or so times the temperature difference.
>
>As the heat rejected (power) is directly proportional to the temperature
>difference and cooling flowrate, you will need 2.5 times airflow through
>the rad on a water cooled motor than you will on an aircooled...This
>sadly turns into drag...:(
>
>Don't make much difference on my HDS but it may become more significant
>on the Xl.
>
>Frank
>HDS Stratus with Ram heads 340 hours
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence
>Webber
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82
>
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lawrence Webber"
>--> <lawrencewebber@hotmail.com>
>
>
>I am chapter pres EAA 1363 Rhode Island we have several aircraft using
>that engine and all luv them good choice good luck with choice i am also
>a 601 xl builder my engine of choice if it checks out mechanically is a
>Lycoming o-290g 125 hp standard
>
>
>LarryFrom: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net Reply-To:
>zenith-list@matronics.com To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re:
>Zenith-List: Zenith List: Subaru EA82 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 00:17:38
>-0400 -- Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy jpollard@mnsi.net
>At 07:19 AM 8/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: -- Zenith-List message posted
>by: "Todd Sarah Baslee" twbaslee@sbcglobal.net Hello list, I
>have recently come across a Subaru EA82 Turbocharged engine with about
>70 aircraft hours on it in very good shape. It even has the PSRU. What
>do you think one would be worth? and Do you think it is one of the
>better auto to aircraft engines to use for an experimental aircraft?
>Thanks for the help, Todd Baslee Lots of power Wider than the ea81 by
>about 4 inches Its heavy fwf will be 300lbs
>
>
>==
>direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>==
>==
>==
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Alumin angle 701 spar caps sources?? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tim & Diane Shankland <tshank@megsinet.net>
Paul,
When I was forming the longerons for my 601 I founds that you have to
stretch the one side to keep it straight. How do you stretch it, with a
big hammer and a block of steel.
Tim Shankland
PAULROD36@msn.com wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
>
>Here's a question that (for the moment) has me stumped: I'm using 3/4x3/4, 1/8
thick aluminum extrusions for the lower front longerons in the rear fuselage,
but when I try to bend them to fit the cockpit floor curve, they tend to twist
as they are bent, and wind up about 1.5" above level. How do you bend them and
keep them flat on the table?
>
>Paul Rodriguez
>601XL, Corvair powered
>Working on the fuselage
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Philip Condon<mailto:pcondon@mitre.org>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Alumin angle 701 spar caps sources??
>
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" <pcondon@mitre.org<mailto:pcondon@mitre.org>>
>
> Take a close look at the aircraft extrusion aluminum angle and you will
> notice a radius on the inside of the formed, extruded angle. Hardware store
> angle aluminum doesn't have this(alloy is not the same ether). The radius
> adds to the strength of the angle extrusion as well as the proper alloy its
> extruded from.
> I think the answer here is use what's available, what you can get. I like
> the extrusion answer...buy some extra stock for all the little brackets and
> whatever your almost certainly going to need to make in the future
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com<mailto:jon@joncroke.com>>
> >
> > >
> > > You can take some .093 sheet and put it in a break. Then shear it to
> > > 3/4 x 3/4 That is what Zenith does I belive.
> > > you are only talking about a half a pound more or so for 10' of
> > > the .125 over the .093
> > >
> > >
> > That raises an interesting question......
> >
> > Generally speaking: is extruded angle the same strength as a similar metal
> > composition but in bend sheet form of the same dimension????
> >
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum sheet question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
Everyone that wants a pattern please e-mail me your adress.
I will make some copys of it and send them out.
I will try to put it on the site later.
Thanks
Brett Ray
brett@hog-air.com
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