---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/14/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:37 AM - Re: setback (Peter Mather) 2. 04:26 AM - Re: setback (jnbolding1) 3. 05:00 AM - Re: setback (Michel Therrien) 4. 05:15 AM - Re: Thinning Cortec 373 (Robert Eli) 5. 05:56 AM - Rib Template Patterns (Cdngoose) 6. 06:49 AM - Re: Electrical Questions (Larry McFarland) 7. 07:04 AM - Setback (epilog) (Carlos Sa) 8. 08:42 AM - 601 Kit Wanted (Joe Scheibinger) 9. 09:27 AM - Re: 601 Kit Wanted (etn industries ltd.) 10. 09:37 AM - Re: Setback (Cdngoose) 11. 10:59 AM - [ Trevor Page ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 12. 11:15 AM - Re: Setback (Carlos Sa) 13. 11:38 AM - re setbacks (roy vickski) 14. 12:28 PM - Re: Electrical Questions (Al Young) 15. 05:00 PM - Re: Electrical Questions (Dave Austin) 16. 09:59 PM - eggenfellner subaru (Rmtnview@aol.com) 17. 11:30 PM - Regarding crimped electrical connections (howado) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:47 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: setback --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" Carlos It sounds like the rivets are work hardening before completely set. Normally this means you need to turn up the pressure to hit them harder and get them fully set more quickly. However, why not ask on one of the RV lists - those boys love rivets :-) Best Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Sa" Subject: Zenith-List: setback > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > > I've been struggling with the HD spar for a while. About a week ago, after much vacillation, I > went ahead and set most solid rivets on the centre spar. > I used the method described in the construction manual: rivet head on a steel plate, steel rod > held against the rivet, hit the rod with sledge hammer. Worked nicely on test parts. > > Some three or four were bad, so I removed them and ordered AD6s from A.S.S. to replace them. > (Almost impossible to avoid enlarging the whole when removing the bad rivet). > The order arrived today, so I went back to the spar and started doing some additional checks. > > To my frustration, a number of the rivets don't look that great. I think I counted 18 that I can > insert a thin piece of paper between the rivets' (pre-formed) head and the spar. Not all around, > but on one side. > > Has anyone faced this situation, and if so, how did you fix it? > > I'm also trying to figure how this could have happened. I can only imagine that the first blow was > too far from the vertical? > > Any comments are welcome. > > > Carlos > (Considering dumping the whole thing) > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:02 AM PST US From: "jnbolding1" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: setback --> Zenith-List message posted by: "jnbolding1" >> To my frustration, a number of the rivets don't look that great. I think I >counted 18 that I can >> insert a thin piece of paper between the rivets' (pre-formed) head and the >spar. Not all around, >> but on one side. >> >> Has anyone faced this situation, and if so, how did you fix it? >> >> I'm also trying to figure how this could have happened. I can only imagine >that the first blow was >> too far from the vertical? Carlos, Built an RV3 about a hundred years ago so have set a few rivets and might be able to help. If the head is moving away from the spar one of two things is happening, either it isn't being held firmly in contact during the first two or three strokes or more likely the hammer is too big (or the backup is too small). Get a local RV builder to help. Most are willing to help even though you are not a "chosen one". Don't give up it's worth it. John Bolding ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:58 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: setback --> Zenith-List message posted by: Michel Therrien When I built my spars, I had them rivetted by a guy used to drive rivets with a air hammer. I then inspected the spars with another friend (who was a RAA inspector at the time). He identified more than 20 "bad rivets". I removed them all and brought someone else (who teaches aircraft construction technique) home to drive the new rivets. I did not enlarge any hole. Before drilling the rivet out, you need to use a punch (I used an automatic punch) and punch the little dimple in the rivet head. That assures that the drill bit will be centered. Second thing, you dont drill through the spar; just the rivet head. Practice a little bit and you'll get the feel of just how much drilling is required. Michel --- Carlos Sa wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > To my frustration, a number of the rivets don't look > that great. I think I counted 18 that I can > insert a thin piece of paper between the rivets' > (pre-formed) head and the spar. Not all around, > but on one side. > > Has anyone faced this situation, and if so, how did > you fix it? > ===== ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:21 AM PST US From: "Robert Eli" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Thinning Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Eli" Robert S., you are right. The spec sheet says to thin with water. My only guess is that maybe the water source is a factor. Unless one uses distilled water, it may be that minerals dissolved in tap water have caused problems in some reported cases. To be honest, I haven't tried an experiment comparing both methods (alcohol or distilled water). But I plan to do a practical test this week end with both methods to see which I like. With regard to Cortec's 373 thinner product (S-25, in 5 gallon cans), I suspect that it is an alcohol based product (probably based on methanol, since Brian once mentioned it being used as a cleaner-thinner in their lab). Bob Eli N701K (still working on the tail feathers) -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Schoenberger Subject: Zenith-List: Thinning Cortec 373 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" Robert Eli wrote "As I promised Jon Croke at the Zenith/Oshkosh dinner, I contacted Brian L. Wuertz at Cortec with regard to using denatured alcohol to thin Cortec VpCI-373.. . . " I may be wrong, but I thought the instruction sheet I got with the product said 373 could be thinned with water. That's what I've been doing, and it works beautifully. I think I added about 15%. The brush or sponge cleans up quickly and easily. If this is so, why use alcohol? Robert Schoenberger 701 - 40% ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:50 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: Zenith-List: Rib Template Patterns --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Thanks to Herb, the Rib Template Patterns are now available to all of you on www.ch601.org you have three formats to choose from either .pdf .dwg or .dxf. This is a great help to plans builders. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:45 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electrical Questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Lance, I think you could bolt or rivet the ring type crimp terminal to the tab on the tank and same at the other end of the cable so long as it is removable and the contact is good. I put a silicone blob over the grounding attach hardware to eliminate corrosion at these points. Also, fastening electricals are best bought from the aircraft supplier or the AeroElectric Connection than the local electronics supply store. The quick disconnect hardware is different in that the extra crimp for the insulation is important in a plane. Wicks or Aircraft Spruce are 2-3 day turnaround time and it's worth it. Larry Do not archive > 1. When grounding my leading edge tanks to the airframe, do I drill a > hole in the ground tab, and bolt a ring terminal on?...or rivet? > > 2. Assuming a bolt, what kind of bolt? any bolt? an 'AN' bolt? brass? > does it matter? Washer required? > > 3. Have any of you found a good source for the good AMP crimp terminals > with the 'copper sleeve' inside (as apposed to the cheap crappy ones > found all over the place for next to nothing). Is there a good national > chain store that sells the 'good' terminals where I don't have to order > by mail and wait a week? > Any thoughts appreciated. > > ..lance > 601XL, tail done, right wing almost done.. > http://lancegingell.com/plane.asp ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:05 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: Setback (epilog) --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Well, there *is* hope! Thanks to all that replied - I see other have walked the same road before and stumbled on the same stones... Mark, I did drill all the spar on a drill press, so everything is square (homebuilt square, not space shuttle square). I saw the rivet setter pictures on the CH601 site. Did you make or buy the rivet cup? If you bought it, what are the specs/part number, and where? In my case, I made "dimple" on a steel bar with my Dremel tool. When I put the rivets in place for setting, I kept them in place with masking tape, which also helps preventing scratches. From the notes I read, I think the problem was caused by a light backup and/or the fact that the spar was free to move. Chris Boultinghouse used bags of sand (or something) to stabilize the spar during the process, and I had forgotten about that. Once again, thanks to all that provide input (and moral support). Carlos ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:45 AM PST US From: "Joe Scheibinger" Subject: Zenith-List: 601 Kit Wanted (not processed: message from valid local sender) --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Scheibinger" Friends, Does anyone have a 601 kit or project they would like to sell? Call 800-416-8360 weekdays after 11 AM Central, or 920-237-1450 evenings. Joe joe@kfiz.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:32 AM PST US From: "etn industries ltd." Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 Kit Wanted --> Zenith-List message posted by: "etn industries ltd." i have completed rudder here in shanghai ,, interested mail me.. Joe Scheibinger wrote:--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Joe Scheibinger" Friends, Does anyone have a 601 kit or project they would like to sell? Call 800-416-8360 weekdays after 11 AM Central, or 920-237-1450 evenings. Joe joe@kfiz.com regards, Etn INDUSTRIES LTD. 2209,howard johnson, no.500 ,xinjiang road,shanghai 13512171905 021-63801497 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:12 AM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Setback --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Hi Carlos, we tried to make our own but none of our idea's allowed for proper pressure on the rivet head and the ones we made were not as good as the ones we could buy. So we drilled a hole in the bottom plate to accept the shanks of the squeezer set dies and can change easily from the A5 to the 3/16 head. Here are some part #'s http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=480/index.htm l part # 3456-2 Aircraft Spruce is http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivset4sqzr.php part # P/N 26-5 Also if you go to this picture http://www.ch601.org/webmaster/david.htm and this one http://www.ch601.org/webmaster/mark.htm you will see how we have setup the riveter. We have more pictures if you need them. One thing I would suggest is that when you are ready to do your solid riveting again have a helper hold the spar down so that the rivet won't jump out of the cup on impact, we both did David's spar together and only had to drill out 1 rivet in the two spars, I did mine alone and ended drilling out 12 rivets, but a few of them were due to being too fussy! So I'm told. You're welcome for any help we can give, remember were all in this together and were pull-in for ya!! Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- Thanks to all that replied - I see other have walked the same road before and stumbled on the same stones... I saw the rivet setter pictures on the CH601 site. Did you make or buy the rivet cup? If you bought it, what are the specs/part number, and where? When I put the rivets in place for setting, I kept them in place with masking tape, which also helps preventing scratches. From the notes I read, I think the problem was caused by a light backup and/or the fact that the spar was free to move. Chris Boultinghouse used bags of sand (or something) to stabilize the spar during the process, and I had forgotten about that. Once again, thanks to all that provide input (and moral support). Carlos ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: [ Trevor Page ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Zenith-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Trevor Page Subject: Simple cockpit heat box http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/webmaster@upac.ca.08.14.2004/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:20 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Setback --> Zenith-List message posted by: Carlos Sa Hi, Mark Thanks for all the pointers, all good stuff. I tried to remove a rivet using your method. I removed the head (fairly easy, I had done that before), but couldn't remove the stem with pliers. I tried hammering the stem with a rod, but it won't come out. Closer inspection of some holes that weren't riveted yet (L angles and the cap doubler) revealed that the parts shifted slightly (vertically). So now the hole contains a small step, and the rivet stem is not going to come out, no mater how persuasive the sledge hammer. So,it seems I would have to go to AD6 in a number of places. The more I think about it, the more I lean towards trashing the spar. There are a few *very* minor other things that would be corrected also: rivet spacing, rivets too close to the spar cap doublers, etc. I have this "sloppy" word dancing in my mind right now, and I don't like it... My day time job is going to overflow into the night for the next couple of weeks, so I'll use the pause to consider (1) fixing the spar (don't think it is likely), (2) make another spar, using this one as a template for the holes or (3) scrap all the wing parts made thus far and go for the XL! "Let me ponder, Pinky" Regards - and thanks once again [If you come to Montreal, I'll be sure to buy you coffee ;o) ] Carlos --- Cdngoose <601xl@sympatico.ca> wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> > > Hi Carlos, we tried to make our own but none of our idea's allowed for > proper pressure on the rivet head and the ones we made were not as good > as the ones we could buy. So we drilled a hole in the bottom plate to > accept the shanks of the squeezer set dies and can change easily from > the A5 to the 3/16 head. Here are some part #'s > http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=480/index.htm > l part # 3456-2 > Aircraft Spruce is > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivset4sqzr.php part # > P/N 26-5 > Also if you go to this picture http://www.ch601.org/webmaster/david.htm > and this one http://www.ch601.org/webmaster/mark.htm you will see how > we have setup the riveter. We have more pictures if you need them. One > thing I would suggest is that when you are ready to do your solid > riveting again have a helper hold the spar down so that the rivet won't > jump out of the cup on impact, we both did David's spar together and > only had to drill out 1 rivet in the two spars, I did mine alone and > ended drilling out 12 rivets, but a few of them were due to being too > fussy! So I'm told. > > You're welcome for any help we can give, remember were all in this > together and were pull-in for ya!! > > Mark Townsend ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:40 AM PST US From: roy vickski Subject: Zenith-List: re setbacks --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski Carlos, Try restriking the rivet. If you cannot close the gap or don't want to chance it, The guide line limits are minimum 50% head area bearing on sheet. Maximum .005 inch gap at edge of head and .002 inch feeler shall not touch the shank. Some highly useful published resources for the scratchbuilder are The FAA AC 43.13-1B,2A and Light Airplane Construction for amateur builders by L. Pazmany. Both are inexpensive and contain a wealth of information and IMHO priceless. I drove two - three hundred for practice and ended up with a bead blasting cabnet. My point being I tryed to make all my mistakes on something no-one would want to fly. Good luck and don't give up, it's all uphill from here. Roy,701 plans do not archive _______________________________ Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:12 PM PST US From: "Al Young" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electrical Questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Al Young" Lance- I would not rivet your connector. My inspector wiggled mine for less than 10 seconds and had it loose. He suggested using a nut/bolt/lock washer.(stainless). Do Not Archive. Al Young, 601XL On the canopy. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:03 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Electrical Questions --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Austin" My best advice is do not rivet. Not accepted in Canada. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:55 PM PST US From: Rmtnview@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: eggenfellner subaru --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rmtnview@aol.com I'm looking at the Eggenfellner subaru engine for the 801. Is anyone out there using this engine? Thanks, rog ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:46 PM PST US From: howado Subject: Zenith-List: Regarding crimped electrical connections --> Zenith-List message posted by: howado While waiting for my next CH701 kit to arrive, I have been drawing the master wiring diagram and designing the panel instrumentation, (neither of which are part of the CH701 kit). I read that some members are concerned about crimp terminals. This is probably not news to those of you who have been involved with MIL electronics and flight systems, but homebuilders who do not have that experience need to know a few things about these terminals. The AMP Inc. designed the crimp terminal to replace soldered terminals back in the late fifties. They went to great length to prove that a proper terminal crimp is actually a cold weld, and that the secondary crimp that is placed at the back over the wire primary insulation is needed to provide strain relief. Tools were developed to obtain a proper crimp, and in aircraft companies the tools were calibrated periodically. The tools contain a die set that guarantees the crimp parameters are met; they are designed to make a proper crimp regardless of how hard you squeeze the handles. These tools appear on the surplus market from time to time, and are usually useable, albeit the die set may need replacing. In addition to AMP terminals and tools, the Thomas& Betts terminals and tools are available. What's the point? You can not get proper crimps with electricians masher pliers or pliers that come with terminal kits sold in hardware chains. The terminals must have a continuous weld and a copper sleeve if they are to make reliable crimped connections. Hope this info is useful. Howard Carter