---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/30/04: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:53 AM - New Sport Pilot rules (howado) 2. 05:58 AM - Zodiac Component Kit Parts Lists (Robert Dziewiontkoski) 3. 06:23 AM - New To The List (N140BB@aol.com) 4. 06:50 AM - Re: New Sport Pilot rules (Bruce Johnson) 5. 08:11 AM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 09:54 AM - CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings (Rick Herndon) 7. 09:54 AM - Re:Top Skin Doubler (RURUNY@aol.com) 8. 01:10 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this. (Don Walker) 9. 01:23 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this. (Larry McFarland) 10. 01:47 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 01:56 PM - Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith (Larry McFarland) 12. 02:28 PM - Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith corrected (Larry McFarland) 13. 02:49 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount (Jim and Lucy) 14. 03:51 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this. (Peter Dunning) 15. 03:58 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings (Larry McFarland) 16. 04:30 PM - Re: Training (Freitas, James) 17. 04:44 PM - Open Hangar day (Randy Stout) 18. 05:07 PM - Re: Open Hangar day (baileys) 19. 05:07 PM - Re: Open Hangar day (Mike Fothergill) 20. 05:55 PM - Re: Open Hangar day (Larry McFarland) 21. 06:03 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this. (Bryan Martin) 22. 06:07 PM - Re: Open Hangar day (Randy Stout) 23. 06:18 PM - Re: Open Hangar day (Don Walker) 24. 07:10 PM - Re: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount (Jim and Lucy) 25. 07:43 PM - Re: Training (Cdngoose) 26. 08:01 PM - Props (Paul Moore) 27. 11:51 PM - Re: Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith (Richard McLachlan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:30 AM PST US From: howado Subject: Zenith-List: New Sport Pilot rules --> Zenith-List message posted by: howado To the list; does anyone know where we are going to get the 16 hours training for inspections and the 80 hours training for maintenance for the various Zenith aircraft required by the new Rules for a I&M Certificate? Howard Carter ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:10 AM PST US From: "Robert Dziewiontkoski" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac Component Kit Parts Lists Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 07:54:23 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Dziewiontkoski" Good morning all Could anyone e-mail me a copy of the parts list for the fuselage component kit? Thanks in advance. Bob Dziewiontkoski Zodiac #L Rudder under construction N624DZ reserved ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:12 AM PST US From: N140BB@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: New To The List --> Zenith-List message posted by: N140BB@aol.com This post is to introduce myself to "The List." I purchased my CH601 XL complete kit with all options including dual sticks in lieu of the "Y". I received it September 2003. Built thus far: Rudder - at ZAC in Mexico Mo. Horizontal stabilizer and elevator Left wing with baggage locker and lights Working on body now, approx 50% complete. Purchased a Jabiru 3300 scheduled for October, 2004 delivery. Presently sharing a hanger at Boerne Stage Airfield (5C1) with another "XL" builder. He is about six months ahead of me. Bill Bartlett, CH601XL, N140BB, Nose Gear, Jabiru 3300, All Electric ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:08 AM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New Sport Pilot rules --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" If you are building or flying a current Zenith aircraft you need no such thing. If you are the original builder and have the repairman's certificate (i.e. you were able to convince the DAR that you built most of the plane and that at least 51% of the tasks were done by amateur builders), then you can do all your own maintenance, and your annual inspections right now no matter what license your flying under. If you own an aircraft built by someone else under the amateur built rules, you can STILL do all your own maintenance, but you have to get an A&P (NOT an AI necessarily, like a certified plane) to do your annual inspections and sign off on any work you had done within the previous year. You can also get the original builder who holds the repairman's certificate to do the inspections if you can get him to agree to that. ONLY planes built under the yet to be finalized consensus standards require the aforementioned 16 and/or 80 hour courses. If you buy a 75% or even 95% kit from Zenith(ELSA), or a ready to fly 601 (SLSA) THEN you need the courses to do your own maintenance and inspections... Just because your plane flies within the parameters of Sport Pilot, doesnt mean you have to "dumb it down" to an LSA. Bruce > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of howado > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:52 AM > To: Zenith-List > Subject: Zenith-List: New Sport Pilot rules > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: howado > > To the list; > > does anyone know where we are going to get the 16 hours training for > inspections and the 80 hours training for maintenance for the various > Zenith aircraft required by the new Rules for a I&M Certificate? > > Howard Carter > --- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Anyone know if this has been sent to ZAC?...Seems a review of this and an AD type of response may be required, a bit like the wing splice plate deal we had a couple of years back. FRank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" --> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > We own and operate G-BVAB, which is the first CH601HDS that was built > in the > UK in 1995. We have just discovered severe cracks in the engine mounts > and consider ourselves very lucky to have done so. However, as we did > not build > it ourselves, we have no idea whether we are unique or whether any > mods that > we don't know about.have been brought out since to correct this > problem. I would advise all CH601 owners to inspect their engine > mounts in case they have the same problem. Our has done 550 hours from > new. > > I have put full details on my web site at http://www.rodsley.net/BVAB/ > > Please take the time to have a look and do let me know if anybody > finds the > same problem. > > Richard McLachlan > > CH601/R22 > > landing site details at www.rodsley.net > > == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:35 AM PST US From: Rick Herndon Richard McLachlan" Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Herndon Richard McLachlan wrote - "We own and operate G-BVAB, which is the first CH601HDS that was built in the UK in 1995. We have just discovered severe cracks in the engine mounts and consider ourselves very lucky to have done so." Richard, Thanks for your post on engine mount fitting failure and recommendation for their immediate inspection on CH601s. Your experience strongly reinforces the case for thorough preflight and condition inspections! I can't tell from your pictures, but does your engine mount have two bolts holding each upper engine mount attachment point to the firewall? While studying your pictures, I noticed an AN3-5A bolt appears to be missing in the firewall upper right engine mount steel plate attachment area picture. The bolt Im referring to is called for on drawing 6E3-2, Engine Mount (Rotax 912). According to my 3rd edition copy of the CH601 plans dated 1/95, two bolts hold the upper engine mount steel plates to the firewall; the engine mount fitting (6F7-2) 3/8 bolt and the AN3-5A. This additional bolt might tent to lessen bending loads being placed on the steel plates and upper engine mount fittings when subjected to rough field operations or other heavy load situations. All CH601 owners might want to check for the presence of these AN3 bolts. Rick Herndon CH601 HDS 74.1 hrs. Copy to: Nick Heintz Zenith Aircraft Company support@zenithair.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:35 AM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: re:Top Skin Doubler --> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com Fred, My first set of plans purchased in May 2002 7F2-1 dated 4/2002 shows this as 570mm. I updated plans June 2003 7F2-1 dated 1/2003 shows this as 500mm. The new dimension is supposed to give the cable a more centered location according to Nick at Zenith who filled me in last summer on this. I ignored the predrill and made it at 500mm. Have looked at approximate location with some string but have not run cables yet. It looked good so far. Brian Unruh Long Island NY From: Fred Sanford Where does it go? The pictures and drawings all show it at 570 mm from the back of the top skin, and my skin came with a predrill at 570 mm. BUT the writing with the pictures and the dimension on the plans says 500mm. Nick says 500. Does anyone have their elevator cables strung, and can give me a better read on this???? Thanks...Fred Sanford...Santa Barbara...3 months in...wings and tail done ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:22 PM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:09:12 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" In 93' when I was building my HDS airframe, I noticed two brackets in which the bolts had been welded in a number of degrees out of square. I had them replaced by ZAC and checked them well before installing them. The note below inspired me to inspect mine this morning...all solid after 340 hours. The uppers can be reached easily by hand...reaching along the upper longeron to be inspected by touch...and the lowers are easy as well. I have this as a part of my annual inspection of course. But I wonder if these brackets had been installed as they came from the factory...out of square...would this have contributed to separation when torqued down with the engine mount. don walker----- Original Message ----- From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:10 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > Anyone know if this has been sent to ZAC?...Seems a review of this and an AD type of response may be required, a bit like the wing splice plate deal we had a couple of years back. FRank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" --> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard McLachlan" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > > We own and operate G-BVAB, which is the first CH601HDS that was built > in the > UK in 1995. We have just discovered severe cracks in the engine mounts > and consider ourselves very lucky to have done so. However, as we did > not build > it ourselves, we have no idea whether we are unique or whether any > mods that > we don't know about.have been brought out since to correct this > problem. I would advise all CH601 owners to inspect their engine > mounts in case they have the same problem. Our has done 550 hours from > new. > > I have put full details on my web site at http://www.rodsley.net/BVAB/ > > Please take the time to have a look and do let me know if anybody > finds the > same problem. > > Richard McLachlan > > CH601/R22 > > landing site details at www.rodsley.net > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:03 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Yes Frank, This was forwarded to Zenith yesterday (Sunday) and I'd expect to see some form of warning or change coming if the frequency of breaks found is more than this one. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > Anyone know if this has been sent to ZAC?...Seems a review of this and > an AD type of response may be required, a bit like the wing splice plate > deal we had a couple of years back. > > FRank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George > Swinford > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "George Swinford" > --> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard McLachlan" > To: > Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. > > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > > > > We own and operate G-BVAB, which is the first CH601HDS that was built > > in > the > > UK in 1995. We have just discovered severe cracks in the engine mounts > > > and consider ourselves very lucky to have done so. However, as we did > > not > build > > it ourselves, we have no idea whether we are unique or whether any > > mods > that > > we don't know about.have been brought out since to correct this > > problem. I would advise all CH601 owners to inspect their engine > > mounts in case they have the same problem. Our has done 550 hours from > > > new. > > > > I have put full details on my web site at http://www.rodsley.net/BVAB/ > > > > Please take the time to have a look and do let me know if anybody > > finds > the > > same problem. > > > > Richard McLachlan > > > > CH601/R22 > > > > landing site details at www.rodsley.net > > > > > > > == > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > == > == > == > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:01 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Certainly could have Don, The important relationship is the bolt being 90 degrees to the engine mount flange. If it is not the welds will be pre stressed maybe not sitting flush to the engine mount flange. The engine shakes and the engine mounts act as a sring soaking up the vibrations. Perfect environment for fatigue cracking. On another metallurgy note (this is Engineers guide to fatigue failures 101)..Over tightening a bolt will NOT lead to fatigue cracks in a bolt itself. The torque values of bolts in A/C is VERY low...Probably more to do with not scratching the aluminium under the bolt rather what the steel bolt can handle. UNDER tightening of a bolt however (like on a cylinder head) can well lead to fatigue failures as the stress in the bolt can vary with the load cycling, if the load goes up above the tension put in the bolt. If the engine mount was a few degrees out of square, it may well be that tightening the bolt further could have straigthened the joint up and it might not have failed. As the springy-ness might have been removed from the out of square joint. It may be that this is one of a very few failures for this reason.. Thats what I'm hoping for!....:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Walker Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" In 93' when I was building my HDS airframe, I noticed two brackets in which the bolts had been welded in a number of degrees out of square. I had them replaced by ZAC and checked them well before installing them. The note below inspired me to inspect mine this morning...all solid after 340 hours. The uppers can be reached easily by hand...reaching along the upper longeron to be inspected by touch...and the lowers are easy as well. I have this as a part of my annual inspection of course. But I wonder if these brackets had been installed as they came from the factory...out of square...would this have contributed to separation when torqued down with the engine mount. don walker----- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:49 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Hi Guys, The subject mount failure by Richard was reported and forwarded in its entirety to Nick at Zenith. This morning, I was going to fly, but being a conservative chicken, undid the screws holding onto the forward top skin and did a top, bottom and sides exam of the subject mounts. All was tight and no signs of a problem at the welds or the bends. I took pictures and did a "should've evaluation the construct of the upper and lower mounts. .050 might be stronger than .062, but better, I'd recommend for better access, the forward top skin be made removable, and the brackets be replaced with a "T-pattern" that replaces the tensioned bends and welds with 3 bends. Bending the long leg of a T, leaving room for the engine bolt hole between the arms of the T, bending each arm in, and forming a 3-sided bracket and bolt-pocket that is welded at length along both adjoining sides. This would make a stronger piece just by not having a weld in tension. But first, I'll wait and see how many are affected, hours, gear-type, engine weight, etc. Larry McFarland - 601HDS ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:28 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith corrected --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Opps, stepped on the keys again. Do not archive The subject mount failure by Richard was reported and forwarded in its entirety to Nick at Zenith. This morning, I was going to fly, but being a conservative chicken, undid the screws holding onto the forward top skin and did a top, bottom and sides exam of the subject mounts. All was tight and no signs of a problem at the welds or the bends. I took pictures and did a "should've evaluation the construct of the upper and lower mounts. .062 might be stronger than .050, but better, I'd recommend the forward top skin be made removable, and the brackets be replaced with a "T-pattern" that replaces the tensioned bends and welds with 3 bends. Bending the long leg of a T, leaving room for the engine bolt hole between the arms of the T, bending each arm in, and forming a 3-sided bracket and bolt-pocket that is welded at length along both adjoining sides. This would make a stronger piece just by not having a weld in tension. But first, I'll wait and see how many are affected, hours, gear-type, engine weight, etc. Larry McFarland - 601HDS Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:42 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Fittings Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Fittings At 12:53 PM 8/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: >3rd edition copy of the CH601 >plans dated 1/95 two bolts hold the upper engine mount steel plates to >the firewall; I have this addition as well as the previous one and the internet cad drawings and they do not show anything like these 2 bolts mentioned. Jim Pollard Merlin Ont ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:14 PM PST US From: Peter Dunning Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning Hi Listers Richard's post to CH601/912 owners prompted me to look at my 601 as it surely did to other owners. However after looking at the photos two questions arose and in the interests of discussion only (and not a post mortem please !) they are: 1. Should Nylock nuts be used in the engine compartment ? 2. Should the fire wall be only galv. sheet steel. ? My 601 was delivered back in 1998 and the 912 mtg block had two bolts each on the top LH & RH mtg points, with just one each on the lower two mtgs. Also, all four mtg points had stiffening webs welded to the tube and face plates. Soft landings Peter Dunning CH601HD/912S ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" > > We own and operate G-BVAB, which is the first CH601HDS that was built in the > UK in 1995. We have just discovered severe cracks in the engine mounts and > consider ourselves very lucky to have done so. However, as we did not build > it ourselves, we have no idea whether we are unique or whether any mods that > we don't know about.have been brought out since to correct this problem. I > would advise all CH601 owners to inspect their engine mounts in case they > have the same problem. Our has done 550 hours from new. > > I have put full details on my web site at http://www.rodsley.net/BVAB/ > > Please take the time to have a look and do let me know if anybody finds the > same problem. > > Richard McLachlan > > CH601/R22 > > landing site details at www.rodsley.net > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:10 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" If you had version 4, the two-bolt pattern would be there, but I doubt that it'd make a lot of difference. The inside bolts would be working against the firewall & reinforcing, both of which are somewhat frail. Drawing provided for the Stratus mount (heavier) show only 2 bolts, so I used a larger diameter mount tubing. Larry McFarland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim and Lucy Fittings" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Fittings > > At 12:53 PM 8/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >3rd edition copy of the CH601 > >plans dated 1/95 two bolts hold the upper engine mount steel plates to > >the firewall; > > > I have this addition as well as the previous one and the > internet cad drawings and they do not show anything like > these 2 bolts mentioned. > > > Jim Pollard > Merlin Ont > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:41 PM PST US From: "Freitas, James" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Freitas, James" Hi All, I am new to the list and have talked to Josh at Sportplanes.com at length about purchsing a "certified" special light sport 601XL. I have even discussed the possiblity of becoming a dealer in the Northern California area for the 601, 701 and a couple of composite S-LSA planes. I would be very interested in all of your feedback as to which options I should get on the 601 for sport pilot training purposes. For example, would the dual stick option be preferable to the standard Y yoke? Thanks, Jim Freitas -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Davidson [mailto:jeffrey.davidson@earthlink.net] Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" --> > > Noticed in the Sport Pilot article in General Aviation News that > this company, http://www.sportsplanes.com , is going to start setting > up training in 20 locations, using 601XLs and 701's. David, I asked Nick about this at the Oshkosh Builder's Dinner after I saw some advertising too. He was non-committal about a lot of details. He did say that the industry now has to take the final Sport Pilot/LSA rule, develop manufacturing processes to implement the rules, agree on the processes industry wide, and that that would be a lengthy process. He said that he wasn't expecting a factory built LSA 601 to be available for sale until at least next Spring at the earliest. So these schools may not have any LSA Zenairs for a significant period of time. I asked if there was any relationship between this new venture and ZAC like AMD or Chip Erwin has, but he wouldn't comment. We also talked about the liability problem. That hasn't been addressed yet from the manufacturing perspective. There is a big difference between selling kits and selling completed aircraft. He did say that ZAC, his company, would continue selling kits. Then there is a question about the flight schools getting insurance to cover LSA for flight training purposes. We won't find out about that until the first LSA 601 goes shopping for flight instruction insurance. And there may be a question concerning flight instructors themselves wanting to put their CFI/CFII/MEI ticket at risk for Sport Pilots. So I expect that lots will have to be worked out over the next year to make a factory built LSA "certified?" aircraft available for training purposes. Others may have additional insights. Jeff Davidson CH 601 HD - putting the top skins & canopy on the fuselage advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:06 PM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" Did anyone go to the Open Hangar Day? Wasn't it this weekend? Just curious why we haven't heard any stories yet. do not archive Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:25 PM PST US From: "baileys" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "baileys" I went to the open house and enjoyed it very much. I would say the turnout exceeded expectations. Cars were parked for at least 3/8 mile on both sides of the road plus the parking lots were full. There were a number of demonstrations going on continuously and I found them most interesting. The only thing was it was difficult to get good pictures because of all the people. I did get to talk with Sebastian Heintz briefly. Bob B. 701 - #7-5552 ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Stout To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" Did anyone go to the Open Hangar Day? Wasn't it this weekend? Just curious why we haven't heard any stories yet. do not archive Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:25 PM PST US From: Mike Fothergill Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill There were very few airplanes there. A total of 4 showed up including our 2 HDS's from Canada. Getting there through some MVFR conditions was not easy. Mike CH-601HDS C-FRND UHS Spinners Randy Stout wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" > > Did anyone go to the Open Hangar Day? Wasn't it this weekend? Just curious > why we haven't heard any stories yet. > > do not archive > > Randy Stout > n282rs"at"earthlink.net > www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:29 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Randy, Lee and I drove 3.5 hours from East Moline, IL to Hannibal, stayed overnight and then drove the last 60-miles the next morning into Mexico, MO. We found the event well attended, parking was a bit tight I registered as a builder, recieved a hat and Zenith sticker on a nearly full page of builders. Donuts and hot coffee were served and I had the opportunity to speak with Nick and say thanks for this year. Two Canadian aircraft, 601HDS, Mikes taildragger, Robs tri-gear, were worth the drive for me. Both were sporting Airplast inflight-adjustable propellors and were very nice aircraft. Mikes plane has over a 1000 hours, both were in remarkably good shape. It was a great pleasure to talk with these gentlemen about their planes and their props. The inflight adjustable prop is probably the only way to get the full range of performance out of a 601. Zenith had a VCR running on their products, interesting static displays and I think a new press. The crowd was very interested in the wing constructon and ribs being stamped out. Jabaru had a representative for the displayed 3300 and there was a 912 Rotax. I had the occasion to speak with several new and potential builders and was surprised at a few who still want to build the 601HDS. Some spoke of the Corvair engine and others were keen on Subaru. Occasional dribbles of rain were seen Saturday morning, but the clouds were intimidating and low till we left a little after noon. Lee and I are looking forward to next year. A good trip! Larry McFarland - 601HDS (10.5 hours of the first 40) Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Stout" Subject: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" > > Did anyone go to the Open Hangar Day? Wasn't it this weekend? Just curious > why we haven't heard any stories yet. > > do not archive > > Randy Stout ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this. From: Bryan Martin --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin on 8/30/04 6:50 PM, Peter Dunning at peterd@metec.co.nz wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Peter Dunning > > Hi Listers > Richard's post to CH601/912 owners prompted me to look at my 601 as it > surely did to other owners. However after looking at the photos two > questions arose and in the interests of discussion only (and not a post > mortem please !) they are: > 1. Should Nylock nuts be used in the engine compartment ? Nylock nuts should not be used on the engine or any place else where the temperature can exceed 250 degrees F. The engine may get hot enough to soften the nylon and allow the nut to work loose. You definitely can't use them on the exhaust system. The firewall should not get hot enough to effect the nylock nuts, the plans call out this type of nut to attach the mounts to the firewall. About the only way the firewall can get hot enough to soften the nylon is if the engine catches fire. In that case, you will be on the ground, one way or another, long before the nuts have time to work loose. > 2. Should the fire wall be only galv. sheet steel. ? I believe that aluminum is not allowed for firewall material in the U. S. and Canada, it's not resistant enough to fire. Steel is required (or wood with appropriate thickness and fire resistant covering). > > My 601 was delivered back in 1998 and the 912 mtg block had two bolts each > on the top LH & RH mtg points, with just one each on the lower two mtgs. > Also, all four mtg points had stiffening webs welded to the tube and face > plates. > > Soft landings > > Peter Dunning > CH601HD/912S > My 601 XL kit delivered in 2001 has a galvanized firewall and each mounting bracket has one AN6 bolt through the firewall for the engine mount. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. Construction complete. Getting ready for inspection. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:02 PM PST US From: "Randy Stout" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" My wife and I really wanted to go this year. I had planned to have my testing finished long before now, but there's always something to slow you down. Maybe next year. (how many times have I said that!) With any luck we'll be able to make Copperstate this year in the Zodiac. do not archive Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 > [Original Message] > From: Larry McFarland > To: > Date: 8/30/04 7:55:05 PM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > Randy, > Lee and I drove 3.5 hours from East Moline, IL to Hannibal, stayed overnight > and then drove the last 60-miles the next morning into Mexico, MO. We found > the event well attended, parking was a bit tight > I registered as a builder, recieved a hat and Zenith sticker on a nearly > full page of builders. Donuts and hot coffee were served and I had the > opportunity to speak with Nick and say thanks for this year. > Two Canadian aircraft, 601HDS, Mikes taildragger, Robs tri-gear, were worth > the drive for me. Both > were sporting Airplast inflight-adjustable propellors and were very nice > aircraft. Mikes plane has over a 1000 hours, both were in remarkably good > shape. It was a great pleasure to talk with these gentlemen > about their planes and their props. The inflight adjustable prop is probably > the only way to get the full range of performance out of a 601. Zenith had > a VCR running on their products, interesting static displays and I think a > new press. The crowd was very interested in the wing constructon and ribs > being stamped out. Jabaru had a representative for the displayed 3300 and > there was a 912 Rotax. > I had the occasion to speak with several new and potential builders and was > surprised at a few who still want to build the 601HDS. Some spoke of the > Corvair engine and others were keen on Subaru. > Occasional dribbles of rain were seen Saturday morning, but the clouds were > intimidating and low till we left a little after noon. Lee and I are > looking forward to next year. A good trip! > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS (10.5 hours of the first 40) > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:06 PM PST US From: "Don Walker" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:17:30 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Don Walker" Boy, this airplane building will reallly help one with refining their sensitivity to tolerances for their measurements, huh. do not archive.----- Original Message ----- From: baileys To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "baileys" > I went to the open house and enjoyed it very much. I would say the turnout exceeded expectations. Cars were parked for at least 3/8 mile on both sides of the road plus the parking lots were full. There were a number of demonstrations going on continuously and I found them most interesting. The only thing was it was difficult to get good pictures because of all the people. I did get to talk with Sebastian Heintz briefly. Bob B. 701 - #7-5552 ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Stout To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Open Hangar day --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy Stout" > Did anyone go to the Open Hangar Day? Wasn't it this weekend? Just curious why we haven't heard any stories yet. do not archive Randy Stout n282rs"at"earthlink.net www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:16 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Fittings Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH601 owners- Please read this - Engine Mount Fittings --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy Fittings At 05:57 PM 8/30/2004 -0500, you wrote: >If you had version 4, the two-bolt pattern would be there, but I doubt that >it'd make a lot of difference. The inside bolts would be working against >the firewall >& reinforcing, both of which are somewhat frail. Drawing provided for the >Stratus >mount (heavier) show only 2 bolts, so I used a larger diameter mount tubing. > >Larry McFarland I did not get any drawings with my stratus mount. Does anyone have one they could scan and send to me? I cant picture how there could be another bolt could come through the firewall close to the 3/8 motor mount bolt. Thanks. Jim Pollard Merlin Ont ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:12 PM PST US From: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca> Hi Jim To answer your question you may wish to talk to Jim Martin of Flypass (Zenith Dealer) in Canada. He has provided more hours of flight instruction in the 601 family then anyone I know of. He should be able to answer all of your questions. Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L Osprey 2 serial # 751 www.ch601.org www.Osprey2.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Freitas, James Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Freitas, James" Hi All, I am new to the list and have talked to Josh at Sportplanes.com at length about purchsing a "certified" special light sport 601XL. I have even discussed the possiblity of becoming a dealer in the Northern California area for the 601, 701 and a couple of composite S-LSA planes. I would be very interested in all of your feedback as to which options I should get on the 601 for sport pilot training purposes. For example, would the dual stick option be preferable to the standard Y yoke? Thanks, Jim Freitas -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Davidson [mailto:jeffrey.davidson@earthlink.net] Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Training --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Davidson" --> > > Noticed in the Sport Pilot article in General Aviation News that > this company, http://www.sportsplanes.com , is going to start setting > up training in 20 locations, using 601XLs and 701's. David, I asked Nick about this at the Oshkosh Builder's Dinner after I saw some advertising too. He was non-committal about a lot of details. He did say that the industry now has to take the final Sport Pilot/LSA rule, develop manufacturing processes to implement the rules, agree on the processes industry wide, and that that would be a lengthy process. He said that he wasn't expecting a factory built LSA 601 to be available for sale until at least next Spring at the earliest. So these schools may not have any LSA Zenairs for a significant period of time. I asked if there was any relationship between this new venture and ZAC like AMD or Chip Erwin has, but he wouldn't comment. We also talked about the liability problem. That hasn't been addressed yet from the manufacturing perspective. There is a big difference between selling kits and selling completed aircraft. He did say that ZAC, his company, would continue selling kits. Then there is a question about the flight schools getting insurance to cover LSA for flight training purposes. We won't find out about that until the first LSA 601 goes shopping for flight instruction insurance. And there may be a question concerning flight instructors themselves wanting to put their CFI/CFII/MEI ticket at risk for Sport Pilots. So I expect that lots will have to be worked out over the next year to make a factory built LSA "certified?" aircraft available for training purposes. Others may have additional insights. Jeff Davidson CH 601 HD - putting the top skins & canopy on the fuselage advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == == ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:02 PM PST US From: "Paul Moore" Subject: Zenith-List: Props --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" Great information Jeff - thanks! A new question for the list: I can't seem to find this dimension on the plans or website anywhere. I know this is a variable since tire sizes, weight, and other things affect it, but what is the prop clearance on the typical tri-gear XL? Or, crank CL to ground measurement in order to know what the maximum prop diameter can be (must also allow for front strut suspension movement as well)? Paul ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:03 PM PST US From: "Richard McLachlan" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard McLachlan" The point made by Larry regarding access for inspection is very valid. The only way we picked up the problem was by shaking the engine and watching the mounts. If the mount moves or the firewall flexes, the bracket is probably broken. A "good" bracket will hold the firewall fixed. Until it is completely broken it won't move. Hence you can only detect it when it has happened. It is almost impossible to see the crack developing inside because access to that part is so difficult. A removeable top forward skin section would allow you to inspect the brackets without having to drill out all the rivets like we did. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: Report of mount failure forwarded to Zenith > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" > > Hi Guys, > The subject mount failure by Richard was reported and forwarded in its > entirety to Nick at Zenith. This morning, I was going to fly, but > being a conservative chicken, undid the screws holding onto the forward top > skin and did a top, bottom and sides exam of the subject mounts. > All was tight and no signs of a problem at the welds or the bends. > I took pictures and did a "should've evaluation the construct of the upper > and lower mounts. .050 might be stronger than .062, but better, I'd recommend > for better access, the forward top skin be made removable, and > the brackets be replaced with a "T-pattern" that replaces the tensioned bends and > welds with 3 bends. Bending the long leg of a T, leaving room for the engine bolt > hole between the arms of the T, bending each arm in, and forming a 3-sided > bracket and bolt-pocket that is welded at length along both adjoining sides. > This would make a stronger piece just by not having a weld in tension. > > But first, I'll wait and see how many are affected, hours, gear-type, engine > weight, etc. > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS > >