Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:27 AM - Horizontal End Tips (LRM)
2. 08:10 AM - Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's (88tierra)
3. 08:13 AM - Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's (Bruce Johnson)
4. 09:03 AM - Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's (Jeff Small)
5. 10:35 AM - Re: Pneumatic Rivet Puller from Zenith (David Barth)
6. 01:53 PM - It Starts Again... (Todd Osborne)
7. 06:10 PM - Re: It Starts Again... (Larry McFarland)
8. 06:39 PM - Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Tebenkof@aol.com)
9. 07:28 PM - What Larry didnt mention.. (Jon Croke)
10. 07:48 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Johnny0464@aol.com)
11. 07:52 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Johnny0464@aol.com)
12. 08:33 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson)
13. 08:34 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson)
14. 11:03 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (xl)
15. 11:13 PM - Rivet type and source (Dr. Perry Morrison)
16. 11:15 PM - Prop Pitch settings (Dr. Perry Morrison)
Message 1
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"Zenith Forum" <zenith-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Horizontal End Tips |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
I have completed building fiberglass horizontal end tips for the 701 and will begin
to market them. The information can be found on the Horizontal Tip page
on my site. Or, from the menu on my home page.
http://www.angelfire.com/un/ch701/tips.html
Larry Martin, N1345L
Take a look at my site. Larry's 701
---
Message 2
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| Subject: | 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "88tierra" <lnk@cis.net>
Just a couple more comments about this issue, a "Light Sport Aircraft means
an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its
original certification, has continued to meet the following:... A maximum
stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of
lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's
maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity."
To me that says that if you have your Air Worthiness already you can't
change the craft to bring it into compliance.
Also, note that the final rule removed the specification of a stall speed
with the use of lift-enhancing devices (generally flaps), and now only
specifies the clean stall speed.
Larry Kilburg
601 XL
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Morelli" <billvt@together.net>
I'm pretty sure that the Sport Aircraft category does NOT allow one to
modify an existing aircraft that does not meet the Sport Aircraft spec and
then fly it under the new Sport Aircraft rules. So if you install 747 flaps
on your HDS and it now stalls at 20 mph, it is still no good for Sport
Aircraft category. ....
Message 3
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| Subject: | 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
In the experimental class category you can make modifications to your
aircraft.
+++ True.
If it is major or will effect the flight characteristics, then you
must apply for an updated airworthiness certificate.
+++ Not true. Cy is correct on the five hour test period and then change in
the Operating Limitations. This went into effect at least two or three
years ago.
So you can make a
change to allow your airplane to be flown as Light Sport Aircraft.
+++ Not true. Because of the claims flying around on this list and others a
few weeks past I inquired of Joe Norris of the EAA at govt@eaa.org. My
question was whether any "lift enhancing" devices could be installed to an
existing amateur built that would lower its stall speed sufficiently to
bring it into the range required of LSA. His answer was "no." While an
"experimental" can be modified, existing a/c in the experimental class can
not be altered into compliance in the LSA (or E-LSA) category. Do a bit of
searching on the EAA site about Joe and you'll find he has been front and
center during the fight for SP and LSA. He knows the rule forward and
backwards.
I e-mailed his response to several other list members and while his exact
reply isn't available to copy from this new computer of mine, maybe someone
else kept it on file.
Regards Jeff
********** Yup, the rule clearly states, and aircraft that has, "since it's
original certification", meet the following....:
So if your building an HDS right now, or awaiting your experimental
certificate, you might be able to get away with the vortex generators right
now (or perhaps still in the 40 hrs ????) but according to the language
above a flying plane is out of luck.
Now that begs the question from me,... Is your stall speed part of your
experimental certificate??? Is it listed anywhere??? How is a sport pilot to
know (or a FAA ramp checker for that matter) what the stall speed is for an
experimental aircraft??
I thought I had read somewhere in the list archives that the zodiac top
speed is inflated a bit by the location of it's static port, or something
like that; wouldn't the published stall also be "exaggerated" i.e. in
reality be lower than published??? Just some thoughts & from an aviation
newbie.
Bruce
---
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Now that begs the question from me,... Is your stall speed part of your
experimental certificate??? Is it listed anywhere??? How is a sport pilot to
know (or a FAA ramp checker for that matter) what the stall speed is for an
experimental aircraft??
Bruce,
Now this is a real-world, common sense approach. The real test of whether your
HDS (or any other borderline-stall experimental) can be flown if you only wish
to exercise SP is will your insurance company allow you to maintain coverage
with just a drivers license as your medical.
I plan to contact my carrier and propose that question: can I fly my Zenith CH601
(don't add anything further because that's how my a/c is referred to in the
insurance documents) and be covered while flying PPL and drivers license?
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pneumatic Rivet Puller from Zenith |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Geeze Larry. You must have a grip of steel by now. I will remember to wear kevlar
reinforced gloves before we shake hands if we ever get to meet at a fly-in.
David
do not archive
Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com> wrote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
Todd,
I used the air riveter for a day and went back to hand pulled rivets for the
rest of the
plane. It's flying now and the air riveter is still setting on the shelf
where I put it
nearly 5 years ago.
I think you get a better job of it with the hand pulled sensitivity.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS 18.5 hours @ www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Osborne"
Subject: Zenith-List: Pneumatic Rivet Puller from Zenith
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne
>
> I am starting to ramp up now for my XL project. I bought a air rivet
> puller several years ago from Harbor Freight. It really sucked. I
> remember seeing the ones Zenith had at the factory in Mexico, MO and
> they were priced fairly. Has anyone else bought/used the guns the Heintz
> boy's sell? How well does it work?
>
> --
> Todd Osborne
> Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
> Web Site: www.toddtown.com
> MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
> AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
>
>
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | It Starts Again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
I ordered some tools online, bought a thing or two from some lister's
here, and just got off the phone with Nick Heintz. My rudder kit will
ship in a week or so. Guess I will be back in the building mode real
soon! Looking forward to it. Why did I tell you guys this? I have no
idea, just excited :)
--
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: It Starts Again... |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: It Starts Again...
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
>
> I ordered some tools online, bought a thing or two from some lister's
> here, and just got off the phone with Nick Heintz. My rudder kit will
> ship in a week or so. Guess I will be back in the building mode real
> soon! Looking forward to it. Why did I tell you guys this? I have no
> idea, just excited :)
>
> --
> Todd Osborne
Of course you're excited Todd, and we share your enthusiasm and look
forward to your progress. Just hang in there and please remember to
add "do not archive" to these giddy notes.
Larry McFarland
Do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
I am probably missing some key idea in this discussion. But might there be
two things going on?
An existing certificated airplane cannot be modified to become a light
sport plane. Nor, apparently, can an existing experimental aircraft.
However, a sport pilot (driver's license medical) can fly any airplane
which has flight characteristics matching the sport plane category (stall
speed, max speed, etc). That can be any legal airplane, no matter he registered,
if it stalls slow enough.
If an existing experimental airplane can be legally modified to fly
slow enough it could not be re-registered as a light sport airplane, but I think
it could be flown by a sport pilot.
Go ahead and shoot me down. I'm flying slow enough.
Jim Greenough
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 9
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| Subject: | What Larry didnt mention.. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
What Larry M didnt mention was that his 701 in progress is looking awfully
purty...
I borrowed (with permission, of course!) a full frontal shot of his progress
on http://CH701.com
and... thanks to the 'other' Larry for making a good reminder that some of
us (I mean ME) should make better use of
** do not archive ** for posts like this very one!
Thanks
Jon
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com
In a message dated 9/15/2004 9:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Tebenkof@aol.com writes:
I am probably missing some key idea in this discussion. But might there be
two things going on?
An existing certificated airplane cannot be modified to become a light
sport plane. Nor, apparently, can an existing experimental aircraft.
However, a sport pilot (driver's license medical) can fly any airplane
which has flight characteristics matching the sport plane category (stall
speed, max speed, etc). That can be any legal airplane, no matter he
registered,
if it stalls slow enough.
If an existing experimental airplane can be legally modified to fly
slow enough it could not be re-registered as a light sport airplane, but I
think
it could be flown by a sport pilot.
Go ahead and shoot me down. I'm flying slow enough.
Jim Greenough
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Do the rules state that only a certain list of airplanes can be flown as a
sport plane. Or, does the plane need to simply meet all the reqirements.
Does this also mean that any future designs will not be considered by the FAA.
All very confusing isn't it.
Is there anyone else out there that feels this way or is it only me.
John W. Tarabocchia
Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT
E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com
johnny0464@aol.com
Phone: 407-709-7255
Nextel: 158*17047*156
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com
I also have another question.
Why couldn't a person with an HDS get his plane to quality for the sport
cert. with a set of HD wings?
This doesn't modify the original design by building a set of HD wings.
John W. Tarabocchia
Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT
E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com
johnny0464@aol.com
Phone: 407-709-7255
Nextel: 158*17047*156
Message 12
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| Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
John wrote:
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Do the rules state that only a certain list of airplanes can be flown as a
sport plane. Or, does the plane need to simply meet all the reqirements.
Does this also mean that any future designs will not be considered by the
FAA.
All very confusing isn't it.
Is there anyone else out there that feels this way or is it only me.
John W. Tarabocchia
Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT
E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com
johnny0464@aol.com
Phone: 407-709-7255
Nextel: 158*17047*156
Bruce replies:
It's not really confusing, it's really quite simple, I think people try to
make it confusing since they just can't believe the FAA would really come up
with something so simple.
The Sport Pilot License allows it's holder to fly any plane in any
certificated category (for lack of a better term) that meets, and has
continued to meet since it was "born" the published weight, stall, & speed
figures. There is a list on the FAA web site, but it's not meant to
necessarily be all inclusive.
The issue of S&E-LSA's and the license are really two completely separate
issues. A sport pilot can count on the fact that an S or E - LSA meets
his/her license requirements. If it's not, some investigation is in order.
IMHO the biggest effect on general aviation as a whole is the second part of
the Sport Pilot rules which is the S-LSA's.
This will be a whole new set of aircraft that happen to meet all the Sport
Pilot criteria, that any pilot can fly VFR day/night, IFR day/night
(assuming proper equipment) that do NOT have to go through the arduous FAA
certification process. They just have to meet the "consensus standards" and
present one example to the FAA that demonstrates that they do meet the
"consensus standards". For foreign manufacturers of planes that meet the
specs, it's even easier. As long as it's certified in it's country of
origin, it can be an S-LSA or E-LSA here. In fact, I expect foreign
manufactured S-LSA's will be the first available.
This means that even a private pilot (or, of course a sport pilot) can
purchase a brand new 2 place plane that can cruise at 8000 feet at 150mph or
better for 45-70K, AND take a 16hr course to do his own maintenance.
(Remember the 120 knot rule is " A maximum airspeed in level flight with
maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard
Atmospheric conditions at sea level." The "sea level" AND "continuous
power" being the key here.) How many private pilots stuck buying 20-30yr
old planes with 3000hr TT airframes would consider a BRAND NEW two place
that's about 1/3-1/2 faster than most 172's for about 1/2 the price of A 172
that his grandfather may have learned to fly in???
THAT's the revolution in this rule...
Not to mention, people like me, who want to be a pilot can use Sport Pilot
as a stepping stone to PPL...
How many potential pilots have baulked at the time and money that a PPL
requires for a hobby that they may or may not be good at???
How many will now jump at the chance to spend only 1/2 the time and/or money
(or less) to "try it".. Sport Pilot rules covers probably 90% of the flying
most "hobby" pilots fly anyway, doesn't it??
I also expect a factory built 601XL(Czech it our <grin>) will be one of the
first S-LSA flown in the US!
Cheers!!
Bruce - (aviation newbie and future Sport Pilot Student)
---
Message 13
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| Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
The reg's say "has continued to meet since its original certification" so
no, you can't modify the plane to stall a certain speed, and then fly as a
sport pilot.
My question, is on an experimental, where is the stall speed in the
"official" record of the plane???
I know on a certificated plane it's well known and in the "manual" (I know
there is an official name for that, I just can't think of it)
But on an experimental, where is the stall speed documented??? For an
Am-build experimental, the FAA can't rely on the specs of the kit
manufacturer since each builder is really the manufacturer.
For E-LSA, the builder will have to essentially build to the kit makers
specs, but for AM-built, that is not true.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Tebenkof@aol.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com
I am probably missing some key idea in this discussion. But might there be
two things going on?
An existing certificated airplane cannot be modified to become a
light
sport plane. Nor, apparently, can an existing experimental aircraft.
However, a sport pilot (driver's license medical) can fly any
airplane
which has flight characteristics matching the sport plane category (stall
speed, max speed, etc). That can be any legal airplane, no matter he
registered,
if it stalls slow enough.
If an existing experimental airplane can be legally modified to fly
slow enough it could not be re-registered as a light sport airplane, but I
think
it could be flown by a sport pilot.
Go ahead and shoot me down. I'm flying slow enough.
Jim Greenough
DO NOT ARCHIVE
---
Message 14
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| Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
You write your aircraft's manual. You are required to have a POH in the
airplane. I used a boiler plate one and filled in the blanks.
The stall speed is documented in the aircraft log book by the builder.
One of the requirements of the airworthyness certification process
is to determine and record the stall speed and the weight of the
aircraft when it was determined. The stall speed is determined during
Phase I of the process. After Phase I the aircraft is flown under
the Phase II requirements - including carrying a passenger, flying
over populated areas, and at night.
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
114 hours + climbing!
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
>
> The reg's say "has continued to meet since its original certification" so
> no, you can't modify the plane to stall a certain speed, and then fly as a
> sport pilot.
>
> My question, is on an experimental, where is the stall speed in the
> "official" record of the plane???
>
> I know on a certificated plane it's well known and in the "manual" (I know
> there is an official name for that, I just can't think of it)
>
> But on an experimental, where is the stall speed documented??? For an
> Am-build experimental, the FAA can't rely on the specs of the kit
> manufacturer since each builder is really the manufacturer.
>
> For E-LSA, the builder will have to essentially build to the kit makers
> specs, but for AM-built, that is not true.
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Rivet type and source |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
I'm close to deskinning my HD wings and adding LE tanks.
1. The spar and nose rib rivets look different- are they?
2. Where is the best place to source these rivets? Is ZAC the only source?
Thanks
Perry Morrison
__________________________
Dr. Perry Morrison
Morrison Associates Pty Ltd
0408892638
perrymorrison@yahoo.com
__________________________
Message 16
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| Subject: | Prop Pitch settings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" <perrymorrison@yahoo.com>
I've fitted a new 3 blade Ivoprop onto my 912-A powered 601-HD and wondered
what people are pitching them at?
It always climbed very well so I can sacrifice some climb for cruise.
best
Perry Morrison
__________________________
Dr. Perry Morrison
Morrison Associates Pty Ltd
0408892638
perrymorrison@yahoo.com
__________________________
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