---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/15/04: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:27 AM - Horizontal End Tips (LRM) 2. 08:10 AM - Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's (88tierra) 3. 08:13 AM - Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's (Bruce Johnson) 4. 09:03 AM - Re: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's (Jeff Small) 5. 10:35 AM - Re: Pneumatic Rivet Puller from Zenith (David Barth) 6. 01:53 PM - It Starts Again... (Todd Osborne) 7. 06:10 PM - Re: It Starts Again... (Larry McFarland) 8. 06:39 PM - Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Tebenkof@aol.com) 9. 07:28 PM - What Larry didnt mention.. (Jon Croke) 10. 07:48 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Johnny0464@aol.com) 11. 07:52 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Johnny0464@aol.com) 12. 08:33 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson) 13. 08:34 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson) 14. 11:03 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (xl) 15. 11:13 PM - Rivet type and source (Dr. Perry Morrison) 16. 11:15 PM - Prop Pitch settings (Dr. Perry Morrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:25 AM PST US From: "LRM" "Zenith Forum" Subject: Zenith-List: Horizontal End Tips --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" I have completed building fiberglass horizontal end tips for the 701 and will begin to market them. The information can be found on the Horizontal Tip page on my site. Or, from the menu on my home page. http://www.angelfire.com/un/ch701/tips.html Larry Martin, N1345L Take a look at my site. Larry's 701 --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:12 AM PST US From: "88tierra" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "88tierra" Just a couple more comments about this issue, a "Light Sport Aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:... A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity." To me that says that if you have your Air Worthiness already you can't change the craft to bring it into compliance. Also, note that the final rule removed the specification of a stall speed with the use of lift-enhancing devices (generally flaps), and now only specifies the clean stall speed. Larry Kilburg 601 XL --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bill Morelli" I'm pretty sure that the Sport Aircraft category does NOT allow one to modify an existing aircraft that does not meet the Sport Aircraft spec and then fly it under the new Sport Aircraft rules. So if you install 747 flaps on your HDS and it now stalls at 20 mph, it is still no good for Sport Aircraft category. .... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:56 AM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Small Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" In the experimental class category you can make modifications to your aircraft. +++ True. If it is major or will effect the flight characteristics, then you must apply for an updated airworthiness certificate. +++ Not true. Cy is correct on the five hour test period and then change in the Operating Limitations. This went into effect at least two or three years ago. So you can make a change to allow your airplane to be flown as Light Sport Aircraft. +++ Not true. Because of the claims flying around on this list and others a few weeks past I inquired of Joe Norris of the EAA at govt@eaa.org. My question was whether any "lift enhancing" devices could be installed to an existing amateur built that would lower its stall speed sufficiently to bring it into the range required of LSA. His answer was "no." While an "experimental" can be modified, existing a/c in the experimental class can not be altered into compliance in the LSA (or E-LSA) category. Do a bit of searching on the EAA site about Joe and you'll find he has been front and center during the fight for SP and LSA. He knows the rule forward and backwards. I e-mailed his response to several other list members and while his exact reply isn't available to copy from this new computer of mine, maybe someone else kept it on file. Regards Jeff ********** Yup, the rule clearly states, and aircraft that has, "since it's original certification", meet the following....: So if your building an HDS right now, or awaiting your experimental certificate, you might be able to get away with the vortex generators right now (or perhaps still in the 40 hrs ????) but according to the language above a flying plane is out of luck. Now that begs the question from me,... Is your stall speed part of your experimental certificate??? Is it listed anywhere??? How is a sport pilot to know (or a FAA ramp checker for that matter) what the stall speed is for an experimental aircraft?? I thought I had read somewhere in the list archives that the zodiac top speed is inflated a bit by the location of it's static port, or something like that; wouldn't the published stall also be "exaggerated" i.e. in reality be lower than published??? Just some thoughts & from an aviation newbie. Bruce --- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:22 AM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 HDS Gross Weight- stall with VG's --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Now that begs the question from me,... Is your stall speed part of your experimental certificate??? Is it listed anywhere??? How is a sport pilot to know (or a FAA ramp checker for that matter) what the stall speed is for an experimental aircraft?? Bruce, Now this is a real-world, common sense approach. The real test of whether your HDS (or any other borderline-stall experimental) can be flown if you only wish to exercise SP is will your insurance company allow you to maintain coverage with just a drivers license as your medical. I plan to contact my carrier and propose that question: can I fly my Zenith CH601 (don't add anything further because that's how my a/c is referred to in the insurance documents) and be covered while flying PPL and drivers license? do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:15 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Pneumatic Rivet Puller from Zenith --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Geeze Larry. You must have a grip of steel by now. I will remember to wear kevlar reinforced gloves before we shake hands if we ever get to meet at a fly-in. David do not archive Larry McFarland wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Todd, I used the air riveter for a day and went back to hand pulled rivets for the rest of the plane. It's flying now and the air riveter is still setting on the shelf where I put it nearly 5 years ago. I think you get a better job of it with the hand pulled sensitivity. Larry McFarland - 601HDS 18.5 hours @ www.macsmachine.com do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Osborne" Subject: Zenith-List: Pneumatic Rivet Puller from Zenith > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne > > I am starting to ramp up now for my XL project. I bought a air rivet > puller several years ago from Harbor Freight. It really sucked. I > remember seeing the ones Zenith had at the factory in Mexico, MO and > they were priced fairly. Has anyone else bought/used the guns the Heintz > boy's sell? How well does it work? > > -- > Todd Osborne > Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com > Web Site: www.toddtown.com > MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com > AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com > > David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:00 PM PST US From: Todd Osborne Subject: Zenith-List: It Starts Again... --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne I ordered some tools online, bought a thing or two from some lister's here, and just got off the phone with Nick Heintz. My rudder kit will ship in a week or so. Guess I will be back in the building mode real soon! Looking forward to it. Why did I tell you guys this? I have no idea, just excited :) -- Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:22 PM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: It Starts Again... --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" Subject: Zenith-List: It Starts Again... > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne > > I ordered some tools online, bought a thing or two from some lister's > here, and just got off the phone with Nick Heintz. My rudder kit will > ship in a week or so. Guess I will be back in the building mode real > soon! Looking forward to it. Why did I tell you guys this? I have no > idea, just excited :) > > -- > Todd Osborne Of course you're excited Todd, and we share your enthusiasm and look forward to your progress. Just hang in there and please remember to add "do not archive" to these giddy notes. Larry McFarland Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:12 PM PST US From: Tebenkof@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com I am probably missing some key idea in this discussion. But might there be two things going on? An existing certificated airplane cannot be modified to become a light sport plane. Nor, apparently, can an existing experimental aircraft. However, a sport pilot (driver's license medical) can fly any airplane which has flight characteristics matching the sport plane category (stall speed, max speed, etc). That can be any legal airplane, no matter he registered, if it stalls slow enough. If an existing experimental airplane can be legally modified to fly slow enough it could not be re-registered as a light sport airplane, but I think it could be flown by a sport pilot. Go ahead and shoot me down. I'm flying slow enough. Jim Greenough DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:34 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith-List: What Larry didnt mention.. --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" What Larry M didnt mention was that his 701 in progress is looking awfully purty... I borrowed (with permission, of course!) a full frontal shot of his progress on http://CH701.com and... thanks to the 'other' Larry for making a good reminder that some of us (I mean ME) should make better use of ** do not archive ** for posts like this very one! Thanks Jon ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:09 PM PST US From: Johnny0464@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com In a message dated 9/15/2004 9:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tebenkof@aol.com writes: I am probably missing some key idea in this discussion. But might there be two things going on? An existing certificated airplane cannot be modified to become a light sport plane. Nor, apparently, can an existing experimental aircraft. However, a sport pilot (driver's license medical) can fly any airplane which has flight characteristics matching the sport plane category (stall speed, max speed, etc). That can be any legal airplane, no matter he registered, if it stalls slow enough. If an existing experimental airplane can be legally modified to fly slow enough it could not be re-registered as a light sport airplane, but I think it could be flown by a sport pilot. Go ahead and shoot me down. I'm flying slow enough. Jim Greenough DO NOT ARCHIVE Do the rules state that only a certain list of airplanes can be flown as a sport plane. Or, does the plane need to simply meet all the reqirements. Does this also mean that any future designs will not be considered by the FAA. All very confusing isn't it. Is there anyone else out there that feels this way or is it only me. John W. Tarabocchia Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com johnny0464@aol.com Phone: 407-709-7255 Nextel: 158*17047*156 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:18 PM PST US From: Johnny0464@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com I also have another question. Why couldn't a person with an HDS get his plane to quality for the sport cert. with a set of HD wings? This doesn't modify the original design by building a set of HD wings. John W. Tarabocchia Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com johnny0464@aol.com Phone: 407-709-7255 Nextel: 158*17047*156 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:40 PM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" John wrote: DO NOT ARCHIVE Do the rules state that only a certain list of airplanes can be flown as a sport plane. Or, does the plane need to simply meet all the reqirements. Does this also mean that any future designs will not be considered by the FAA. All very confusing isn't it. Is there anyone else out there that feels this way or is it only me. John W. Tarabocchia Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com johnny0464@aol.com Phone: 407-709-7255 Nextel: 158*17047*156 Bruce replies: It's not really confusing, it's really quite simple, I think people try to make it confusing since they just can't believe the FAA would really come up with something so simple. The Sport Pilot License allows it's holder to fly any plane in any certificated category (for lack of a better term) that meets, and has continued to meet since it was "born" the published weight, stall, & speed figures. There is a list on the FAA web site, but it's not meant to necessarily be all inclusive. The issue of S&E-LSA's and the license are really two completely separate issues. A sport pilot can count on the fact that an S or E - LSA meets his/her license requirements. If it's not, some investigation is in order. IMHO the biggest effect on general aviation as a whole is the second part of the Sport Pilot rules which is the S-LSA's. This will be a whole new set of aircraft that happen to meet all the Sport Pilot criteria, that any pilot can fly VFR day/night, IFR day/night (assuming proper equipment) that do NOT have to go through the arduous FAA certification process. They just have to meet the "consensus standards" and present one example to the FAA that demonstrates that they do meet the "consensus standards". For foreign manufacturers of planes that meet the specs, it's even easier. As long as it's certified in it's country of origin, it can be an S-LSA or E-LSA here. In fact, I expect foreign manufactured S-LSA's will be the first available. This means that even a private pilot (or, of course a sport pilot) can purchase a brand new 2 place plane that can cruise at 8000 feet at 150mph or better for 45-70K, AND take a 16hr course to do his own maintenance. (Remember the 120 knot rule is " A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard Atmospheric conditions at sea level." The "sea level" AND "continuous power" being the key here.) How many private pilots stuck buying 20-30yr old planes with 3000hr TT airframes would consider a BRAND NEW two place that's about 1/3-1/2 faster than most 172's for about 1/2 the price of A 172 that his grandfather may have learned to fly in??? THAT's the revolution in this rule... Not to mention, people like me, who want to be a pilot can use Sport Pilot as a stepping stone to PPL... How many potential pilots have baulked at the time and money that a PPL requires for a hobby that they may or may not be good at??? How many will now jump at the chance to spend only 1/2 the time and/or money (or less) to "try it".. Sport Pilot rules covers probably 90% of the flying most "hobby" pilots fly anyway, doesn't it?? I also expect a factory built 601XL(Czech it our ) will be one of the first S-LSA flown in the US! Cheers!! Bruce - (aviation newbie and future Sport Pilot Student) --- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:23 PM PST US From: "Bruce Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" The reg's say "has continued to meet since its original certification" so no, you can't modify the plane to stall a certain speed, and then fly as a sport pilot. My question, is on an experimental, where is the stall speed in the "official" record of the plane??? I know on a certificated plane it's well known and in the "manual" (I know there is an official name for that, I just can't think of it) But on an experimental, where is the stall speed documented??? For an Am-build experimental, the FAA can't rely on the specs of the kit manufacturer since each builder is really the manufacturer. For E-LSA, the builder will have to essentially build to the kit makers specs, but for AM-built, that is not true. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tebenkof@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tebenkof@aol.com I am probably missing some key idea in this discussion. But might there be two things going on? An existing certificated airplane cannot be modified to become a light sport plane. Nor, apparently, can an existing experimental aircraft. However, a sport pilot (driver's license medical) can fly any airplane which has flight characteristics matching the sport plane category (stall speed, max speed, etc). That can be any legal airplane, no matter he registered, if it stalls slow enough. If an existing experimental airplane can be legally modified to fly slow enough it could not be re-registered as a light sport airplane, but I think it could be flown by a sport pilot. Go ahead and shoot me down. I'm flying slow enough. Jim Greenough DO NOT ARCHIVE --- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:03 PM PST US From: xl Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl You write your aircraft's manual. You are required to have a POH in the airplane. I used a boiler plate one and filled in the blanks. The stall speed is documented in the aircraft log book by the builder. One of the requirements of the airworthyness certification process is to determine and record the stall speed and the weight of the aircraft when it was determined. The stall speed is determined during Phase I of the process. After Phase I the aircraft is flown under the Phase II requirements - including carrying a passenger, flying over populated areas, and at night. Joe E N633Z @ BFI 114 hours + climbing! On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Bruce Johnson wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" > > The reg's say "has continued to meet since its original certification" so > no, you can't modify the plane to stall a certain speed, and then fly as a > sport pilot. > > My question, is on an experimental, where is the stall speed in the > "official" record of the plane??? > > I know on a certificated plane it's well known and in the "manual" (I know > there is an official name for that, I just can't think of it) > > But on an experimental, where is the stall speed documented??? For an > Am-build experimental, the FAA can't rely on the specs of the kit > manufacturer since each builder is really the manufacturer. > > For E-LSA, the builder will have to essentially build to the kit makers > specs, but for AM-built, that is not true. > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:17 PM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Zenith-List: Rivet type and source --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" I'm close to deskinning my HD wings and adding LE tanks. 1. The spar and nose rib rivets look different- are they? 2. Where is the best place to source these rivets? Is ZAC the only source? Thanks Perry Morrison __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:10 PM PST US From: "Dr. Perry Morrison" Subject: Zenith-List: Prop Pitch settings --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dr. Perry Morrison" I've fitted a new 3 blade Ivoprop onto my 912-A powered 601-HD and wondered what people are pitching them at? It always climbed very well so I can sacrifice some climb for cruise. best Perry Morrison __________________________ Dr. Perry Morrison Morrison Associates Pty Ltd 0408892638 perrymorrison@yahoo.com __________________________