Zenith-List Digest Archive

Thu 09/16/04


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:41 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Jim Pellien)
     2. 05:23 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson)
     3. 05:30 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson)
     4. 06:43 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Jim Pellien)
     5. 07:46 AM - Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer (Todd Osborne)
     6. 09:43 AM - Zinc Chromate or Zinc Oxide (Gdascomb@aol.com)
     7. 11:19 AM - Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS (Rick Herndon)
     8. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
     9. 03:20 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Johnny0464@aol.com)
    10. 03:29 PM - Carburetor bypass overflowed (Larry McFarland)
    11. 04:11 PM - Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    12. 05:39 PM - Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed (Mike Fothergill)
    13. 05:48 PM - EAA answer to Sport Pilot Question on Gross Weight (Weston and Judy Walker)
    14. 06:34 PM - Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed (Ray Montagne)
    15. 07:41 PM - Wing Installation? (Jimmy Parker)
    16. 07:43 PM - Re: Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer (Jimmy Parker)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:41:31 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
    Subject: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com> John, The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane. Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Johnny0464@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com I also have another question. Why couldn't a person with an HDS get his plane to quality for the sport cert. with a set of HD wings? This doesn't modify the original design by building a set of HD wings. John W. Tarabocchia Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com johnny0464@aol.com Phone: 407-709-7255 Nextel: 158*17047*156 == == == ==


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:23:37 AM PST US
    From: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
    Subject: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com> You have described an "S"-LSA. There will be "E"-LSA aircraft that are kit aircraft that are finished by the factory more than 49%, but not 100%. The main difference in operating limitations is the SLSA may be used for instruction for hire, where the ELSA may not (not counting the ultralight trainers converted during the "grandfathering" period of course). Of course any airplane that meets the stall, weight, passenger and cruise speed specs "is" an LSA for the purposes of being able to be flown by a Sport Pilot. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pellien Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com> John, The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane. Jim ---


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:30:24 AM PST US
    From: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
    Subject: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com> Joe E wrote: -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xl Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org> You write your aircraft's manual. You are required to have a POH in the airplane. I used a boiler plate one and filled in the blanks. The stall speed is documented in the aircraft log book by the builder. One of the requirements of the airworthyness certification process is to determine and record the stall speed and the weight of the aircraft when it was determined. The stall speed is determined during Phase I of the process. After Phase I the aircraft is flown under the Phase II requirements - including carrying a passenger, flying over populated areas, and at night. Joe E N633Z @ BFI 114 hours + climbing! I reply: Thanks Joe, that's how I thought it might work. So any modification to the plane (Vortex generators or otherwise) to help increase stall speed should be done during the initial 40hr period if a new builder wants the plane to qualify as an LSA. Bruce DO NOT ARCHIVE ---


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:43:02 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
    Subject: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com> Bruce, Thanks for the concise and accurate description of the differences between a S-LSA and an E-LSA. Jim Jim Pellien Pellien Enterprises 703-313-4818 www.pellien.com jim@pellien.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Johnson Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com> You have described an "S"-LSA. There will be "E"-LSA aircraft that are kit aircraft that are finished by the factory more than 49%, but not 100%. The main difference in operating limitations is the SLSA may be used for instruction for hire, where the ELSA may not (not counting the ultralight trainers converted during the "grandfathering" period of course). Of course any airplane that meets the stall, weight, passenger and cruise speed specs "is" an LSA for the purposes of being able to be flown by a Sport Pilot. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pellien Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com> John, The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane. Jim ---


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:46:09 AM PST US
    From: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
    Subject: Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com> I just talked Wicks Aircraft into selling Zinc Oxide primer from Tempo in aerosol cans. I know several of you like this primer, and some of you don't, but just in case any midwestern builders out there like me are looking for a more-local source, Wicks should have it now. About $7.00 a can or so. I have dealt with them in the past and the people that work there are very friendly and helpful. -- Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:43:02 AM PST US
    From: Gdascomb@aol.com
    Subject: Zinc Chromate or Zinc Oxide
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Gdascomb@aol.com Styles Aviation has both Green or Yellow spray cans from Tempo for $4.95/can. George 7-5339 Sugar Land, TX


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:19:54 AM PST US
    From: Rick Herndon <rickherndon@erols.com>
    Subject: Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Herndon <rickherndon@erols.com> "I'm building an HD but negotiating to trade for HDS wings. With my light-weight engine the aft CG is a concern. The HDS wings in question have fuel tanks in the baggage locker spaces, and I wonder if any of you can advise me on how this will affect the CG. Thanks, Bob" Bob, Baggage locker tanks don't account for much aft CG shift in my CH 601 HDS. If I take off in a max aft CG situation and fly to fuel starvation, my CG will only shift 0.4 inches forward! Removing ten pounds of baggage from my baggage shelf would give the same CG shift as burning ninety pounds of baggage locker fuel. Similarly, if a very light pilot takes off with full fuel and burns all baggage locker tank fuel, the CG will shift 1.3 inches forward to the forward CG limit. Rick Herndon CH 601 HDS do not archive


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:53:34 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> Depending on how useful you think the baggage locker space will be, you might want to consider changing over to LE tanks. Its pretty easy to do as long as you pilot dril the rivet heads with a #40 first...You can drill the heads off at size without marking the hole underneath. That's what I did...twice...one of mine developed a leak! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Herndon Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Herndon <rickherndon@erols.com> "I'm building an HD but negotiating to trade for HDS wings. With my light-weight engine the aft CG is a concern. The HDS wings in question have fuel tanks in the baggage locker spaces, and I wonder if any of you can advise me on how this will affect the CG. Thanks, Bob" Bob, Baggage locker tanks don't account for much aft CG shift in my CH 601 HDS. If I take off in a max aft CG situation and fly to fuel starvation, my CG will only shift 0.4 inches forward! Removing ten pounds of baggage from my baggage shelf would give the same CG shift as burning ninety pounds of baggage locker fuel. Similarly, if a very light pilot takes off with full fuel and burns all baggage locker tank fuel, the CG will shift 1.3 inches forward to the forward CG limit. Rick Herndon CH 601 HDS do not archive == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == ==


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:20:08 PM PST US
    From: Johnny0464@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com In a message dated 9/16/2004 7:42:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jim@pellien.com writes: John, The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane. Jim WOW...This is the first time I've heard of this. I suppose I should just read the rule myself. This way I will have the correct information. John W. Tarabocchia Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com johnny0464@aol.com Phone: 407-709-7255 Nextel: 158*17047*156


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:29:06 PM PST US
    From: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
    Subject: Carburetor bypass overflowed
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com> Hi Guys, This morning with serious intent to fly, I found the left carburetor bypass flowing fuel after turning on the fuel valve. Of course, this required the carburetor be taken apart to check float bowl, float action and the gage 10.5mm distance with arms parallel with the gasket surface. It all came down to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel. Tried to make it happen again, but it wouldn't repeat. I've real concern for this because the overflow could easily start a fire if it weren't noticed. It's another thing to check each time, as the Bing manual says this is a common occurance. I thought my gascolator screen which is very fine would sort stuff like this out. If you have this problem, don't fly it until you get it stopped, because the manual says full throttle might be successful until landing and then at half throttle, the carb would flood the system and the engine might stop in the middle of a landing sequence. I was curious if anyone had had this problem with their Bings and if you had a better solution. Larry McFarland - 601HDS doing the reliability thing at 18.5 hours.


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:11:10 PM PST US
    Subject: Carburetor bypass overflowed
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> You really have to have a paper element type of filter on the discharge of your pump(s). Never,never on the inlet to your pump(s)...If it plugs you vapour lock and die...well at least your engine will. As I have pumps next to the wing tanks I put the filters at the discharge of each pump...If one plugs you can simply switch to the other. I've changed them once in 5 years and they cost about $2 each...Never had a needle valve problem. Frank 342 hours Stratus with Ram heads 601 HDS -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry McFarland Subject: Zenith-List: Carburetor bypass overflowed --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" --> <larrymc@qconline.com> Hi Guys, This morning with serious intent to fly, I found the left carburetor bypass flowing fuel after turning on the fuel valve. Of course, this required the carburetor be taken apart to check float bowl, float action and the gage 10.5mm distance with arms parallel with the gasket surface. It all came down to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel. Tried to make it happen again, but it wouldn't repeat.


    Message 12


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    Time: 05:39:48 PM PST US
    From: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca> Hi; You should fabricate a drain system that will allow spillage to drop out the bottom of the cowl avoiding the exhaust with its fire hazard. I made funnel like devices with an inlet into the side to which the overflow is attached. The bottom of the funnel is extended with 1/4 inch fuel tubing down to the bottom of the cowl. Remember that this "overflow" tube must feel the same ambient pressure as exists at the inlet to the carburetor for the diaphram to work properly. Some operators have attached the tube to the carb filter so that excess fuel would be sucked into the engine.(I'm not sure that this will absolutely prevent some spill onto the exhaust) My opinion. Mike UHS Spinners Larry McFarland wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com> > > Hi Guys, > This morning with serious intent to fly, I found the left carburetor bypass > flowing fuel after turning on the fuel valve. Of course, this required the > carburetor be taken apart to check float bowl, float action and the gage > 10.5mm distance with arms parallel with the gasket surface. It all came down > to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel. Tried to make > it happen again, but it wouldn't repeat. > > I've real concern for this because the overflow could easily start a fire if it weren't > noticed. It's another thing to check each time, as the Bing manual says this is > a common occurance. I thought my gascolator screen which is very fine would > sort stuff like this out. > > If you have this problem, don't fly it until you get it stopped, because the manual > says full throttle might be successful until landing and then at half throttle, the carb would > flood the system and the engine might stop in the middle of a landing sequence. > > I was curious if anyone had had this problem with their Bings and if you had a > better solution. > > > Larry McFarland - 601HDS doing the reliability thing at 18.5 hours. > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:48:49 PM PST US
    From: "Weston and Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
    Subject: EAA answer to Sport Pilot Question on Gross Weight
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net> Here is a recent question I asked EAA, and their answer that follows. Not all things with Sport Pilot are so simple. QUESTION Last year I built a Zenith 601XL. Based on numbers/instructions from the designer (Chris Heintz), I declared the gross weight to be 1367 lbs (rather than using Heintz's original 6g ultimate load design standard, I used standard "normal category" load limits; thus I was able to increase the gross from 1300 to 1367). I used 1367lbs on the FAA paperwork when having it inspected for the airworthiness certificate. If I read the Sport Pilot rule correctly, it seems I (nor anyone) would ever be able to operate my 601XL as a sport pilot. Am I reading this correctly? Or, if I keep the loading below 1320 lbs, can I operate it as a sport pilot? Or, is there a way for me to have the airworthiness paperwork changed to show a gross of 1320 instead of 1367? Thanks, Weston Walker EAA #________ ANSWER Weston, This is a difficult question at this point. =A71.1 Defines an LSA as follows: Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than-- (i) 660 pounds (300 kilograms) for lighter-than-air aircraft; (ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or (iii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level. (3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider. (4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity. (5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot. (6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered. (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider. (8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider. (9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane. (10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin. (11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider. (12) Fixed or repositionable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water. (13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider. Currently, the following operating limitation is typically issued to new amateur built aircraft. All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under VFR, day only. Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in AC 90-89. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with =A7 91.319(b). Compliance with =A7 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained." If you have this language and if you documented your 1367 gross weight as stated above, it is likely the FAA would determine that the aircraft has not met the definition of an LSA since original certification and therefore cannot be flown by a sport pilot. Although I could also argue that you, as the builder/manufacturer, flight tested the aircraft to 1367 to establish a safety factor and that the "approved" gross weight by you, the builder/manufacturer, is actually 1300 (of course I would then have it placarded appropriately). As a practical matter, the FAA admits in the preamble that it will be difficult to determine whether an amateur built is in compliance with the LSA definition. I don't believe the weight and balance submitted to the FAA prior to inspection is retained. Plus, I would argue that the "gross weight" for an amateur built is not established until the above entry is made in the airframe logbook because until it is tested it has not been established. So the only real documentation for gross weight is the logbook entry. Plus, on older amateur built aircraft, there is a very good chance that the gross weight was not required to be recorded since the above operating limitation language was implemented about 5 years ago. The FAA preamble included the following: "The FAA notes that compliance with light-sport aircraft parameters can be more readily verified for type-certificated aircraft than for amateur-built aircraft certificated under existing =A721.191 (g). Amateur-built aircraft do not have a TC, a flight manual, or a type certificate data sheet. Because of this, it may be difficult to determine if aircraft with other than a standard airworthiness certificate meet the limits listed for a light-sport aircraft and can be operated by a sport pilot. The FAA anticipates that the aircraft design consensus standard will include methodologies that will readily enable a determination that an aircraft design meets the light-sport aircraft definition." We at EAA are unsure what the "correct" answer is at this time without additional guidance from FAA. Charlie Becker EAA Aviation Services


    Message 14


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    Time: 06:34:35 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed
    From: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net> On 9/16/04 3:28 PM, "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com> wrote: > It all came down > to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel. And that would be what kind of engine? DO NOT ARCHIVE Best Regards, Ray Montagne Cupertino, CA =========================================================================== Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL Build Status: Rudder completed Elevator Completed Stabilizer Completed Flaps Completed Ailerons Completed Right Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Left Wing Completed Right Wing Tip Completed Fuselage Under Construction NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' in the subject line will be rejected and will not be viewable by me. ===========================================================================


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:41:46 PM PST US
    Subject: Wing Installation?
    From: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com>
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com> I'm ready to "hang" the wings on my 701. Are there any "tricks" I need to know about; or, are the plans close to right? Also, at what stage did you guys paint? Jim 5098 701 Do not archive


    Message 16


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    Time: 07:43:05 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer
    From: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com>
    --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com> You can buy it at Airparts Inc. in Kansas City also. I think it's about 8 bucks a can. Jim Do not archive




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