Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:41 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Jim Pellien)
2. 05:23 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson)
3. 05:30 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Bruce Johnson)
4. 06:43 AM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Jim Pellien)
5. 07:46 AM - Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer (Todd Osborne)
6. 09:43 AM - Zinc Chromate or Zinc Oxide (Gdascomb@aol.com)
7. 11:19 AM - Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS (Rick Herndon)
8. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 03:20 PM - Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot (Johnny0464@aol.com)
10. 03:29 PM - Carburetor bypass overflowed (Larry McFarland)
11. 04:11 PM - Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
12. 05:39 PM - Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed (Mike Fothergill)
13. 05:48 PM - EAA answer to Sport Pilot Question on Gross Weight (Weston and Judy Walker)
14. 06:34 PM - Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed (Ray Montagne)
15. 07:41 PM - Wing Installation? (Jimmy Parker)
16. 07:43 PM - Re: Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer (Jimmy Parker)
Message 1
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Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
John,
The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been
wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No
home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Johnny0464@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com
I also have another question.
Why couldn't a person with an HDS get his plane to quality for the sport
cert. with a set of HD wings?
This doesn't modify the original design by building a set of HD wings.
John W. Tarabocchia
Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT
E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com
johnny0464@aol.com
Phone: 407-709-7255
Nextel: 158*17047*156
==
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Message 2
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Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
You have described an "S"-LSA.
There will be "E"-LSA aircraft that are kit aircraft that are finished by
the factory more than 49%, but not 100%. The main difference in operating
limitations is the SLSA may be used for instruction for hire, where the ELSA
may not (not counting the ultralight trainers converted during the
"grandfathering" period of course).
Of course any airplane that meets the stall, weight, passenger and cruise
speed specs "is" an LSA for the purposes of being able to be flown by a
Sport Pilot.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pellien
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
John,
The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been
wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No
home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane.
Jim
---
Message 3
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Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
Joe E wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of xl
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
You write your aircraft's manual. You are required to have a POH in the
airplane. I used a boiler plate one and filled in the blanks.
The stall speed is documented in the aircraft log book by the builder.
One of the requirements of the airworthyness certification process
is to determine and record the stall speed and the weight of the
aircraft when it was determined. The stall speed is determined during
Phase I of the process. After Phase I the aircraft is flown under
the Phase II requirements - including carrying a passenger, flying
over populated areas, and at night.
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
114 hours + climbing!
I reply:
Thanks Joe, that's how I thought it might work. So any modification to the
plane (Vortex generators or otherwise) to help increase stall speed should
be done during the initial 40hr period if a new builder wants the plane to
qualify as an LSA.
Bruce
DO NOT ARCHIVE
---
Message 4
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Subject: | Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
Bruce,
Thanks for the concise and accurate description of the differences between a S-LSA
and an E-LSA.
Jim
Jim Pellien
Pellien Enterprises
703-313-4818
www.pellien.com
jim@pellien.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Johnson
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Bruce Johnson" <bruce@satx.rr.com>
You have described an "S"-LSA.
There will be "E"-LSA aircraft that are kit aircraft that are finished by
the factory more than 49%, but not 100%. The main difference in operating
limitations is the SLSA may be used for instruction for hire, where the ELSA
may not (not counting the ultralight trainers converted during the
"grandfathering" period of course).
Of course any airplane that meets the stall, weight, passenger and cruise
speed specs "is" an LSA for the purposes of being able to be flown by a
Sport Pilot.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pellien
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
John,
The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been
wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No
home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane.
Jim
---
Message 5
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Subject: | Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
I just talked Wicks Aircraft into selling Zinc Oxide primer from Tempo
in aerosol cans. I know several of you like this primer, and some of you
don't, but just in case any midwestern builders out there like me are
looking for a more-local source, Wicks should have it now. About $7.00 a
can or so. I have dealt with them in the past and the people that work
there are very friendly and helpful.
--
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
Message 6
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Subject: | Zinc Chromate or Zinc Oxide |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gdascomb@aol.com
Styles Aviation has both Green or Yellow spray cans from Tempo for
$4.95/can.
George
7-5339
Sugar Land, TX
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Herndon <rickherndon@erols.com>
"I'm building an HD but negotiating to trade for HDS wings. With my
light-weight engine the aft CG is a concern. The HDS wings in question
have
fuel tanks in the baggage locker spaces, and I wonder if any of you can
advise me on how this will affect the CG.
Thanks,
Bob"
Bob,
Baggage locker tanks don't account for much aft CG shift in my CH 601
HDS. If I take off in a max aft CG situation and fly to fuel
starvation, my CG will only shift 0.4 inches forward! Removing ten
pounds of baggage from my baggage shelf would give the same CG shift as
burning ninety pounds of baggage locker fuel.
Similarly, if a very light pilot takes off with full fuel and burns all
baggage locker tank fuel, the CG will shift 1.3 inches forward to the
forward CG limit.
Rick Herndon
CH 601 HDS
do not archive
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Depending on how useful you think the baggage locker space will be, you
might want to consider changing over to LE tanks. Its pretty easy to do
as long as you pilot dril the rivet heads with a #40 first...You can
drill the heads off at size without marking the hole underneath.
That's what I did...twice...one of mine developed a leak!
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Herndon
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Baggage Locker tanks and CG in HDS
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Herndon <rickherndon@erols.com>
"I'm building an HD but negotiating to trade for HDS wings. With my
light-weight engine the aft CG is a concern. The HDS wings in question
have fuel tanks in the baggage locker spaces, and I wonder if any of you
can advise me on how this will affect the CG. Thanks, Bob"
Bob,
Baggage locker tanks don't account for much aft CG shift in my CH 601
HDS. If I take off in a max aft CG situation and fly to fuel
starvation, my CG will only shift 0.4 inches forward! Removing ten
pounds of baggage from my baggage shelf would give the same CG shift as
burning ninety pounds of baggage locker fuel.
Similarly, if a very light pilot takes off with full fuel and burns all
baggage locker tank fuel, the CG will shift 1.3 inches forward to the
forward CG limit.
Rick Herndon
CH 601 HDS
do not archive
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Sport plane Vs. Sport Pilot |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Johnny0464@aol.com
In a message dated 9/16/2004 7:42:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jim@pellien.com writes:
John,
The sport plane certification only applies to an aircraft that has been
wholly manufactured within the aircraft manufacturer's factory. No
home-building is allowed for a certificated sport plane.
Jim
WOW...This is the first time I've heard of this.
I suppose I should just read the rule myself. This way I will have the
correct information.
John W. Tarabocchia
Project Supervisor / Engineering CFT
E-mail: john_tarabocchia@wgresorts.com
johnny0464@aol.com
Phone: 407-709-7255
Nextel: 158*17047*156
Message 10
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Subject: | Carburetor bypass overflowed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Hi Guys,
This morning with serious intent to fly, I found the left carburetor bypass
flowing fuel after turning on the fuel valve. Of course, this required the
carburetor be taken apart to check float bowl, float action and the gage
10.5mm distance with arms parallel with the gasket surface. It all came down
to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel. Tried to
make
it happen again, but it wouldn't repeat.
I've real concern for this because the overflow could easily start a fire if it
weren't
noticed. It's another thing to check each time, as the Bing manual says this is
a common occurance. I thought my gascolator screen which is very fine would
sort stuff like this out.
If you have this problem, don't fly it until you get it stopped, because the manual
says full throttle might be successful until landing and then at half throttle,
the carb would
flood the system and the engine might stop in the middle of a landing sequence.
I was curious if anyone had had this problem with their Bings and if you had a
better solution.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS doing the reliability thing at 18.5 hours.
Message 11
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Subject: | Carburetor bypass overflowed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
You really have to have a paper element type of filter on the discharge
of your pump(s). Never,never on the inlet to your pump(s)...If it plugs
you vapour lock and die...well at least your engine will.
As I have pumps next to the wing tanks I put the filters at the
discharge of each pump...If one plugs you can simply switch to the
other.
I've changed them once in 5 years and they cost about $2 each...Never
had a needle valve problem.
Frank
342 hours Stratus with Ram heads 601 HDS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
McFarland
Subject: Zenith-List: Carburetor bypass overflowed
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland"
--> <larrymc@qconline.com>
Hi Guys,
This morning with serious intent to fly, I found the left carburetor
bypass flowing fuel after turning on the fuel valve. Of course, this
required the carburetor be taken apart to check float bowl, float action
and the gage 10.5mm distance with arms parallel with the gasket surface.
It all came down to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from
closing off fuel. Tried to make it happen again, but it wouldn't
repeat.
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
You should fabricate a drain system that will allow spillage to drop
out the bottom of the cowl avoiding the exhaust with its fire hazard.
I made funnel like devices with an inlet into the side to which the
overflow is attached. The bottom of the funnel is extended with 1/4 inch
fuel tubing down to the bottom of the cowl. Remember that this
"overflow" tube must feel the same ambient pressure as exists at the
inlet to the carburetor for the diaphram to work properly. Some
operators have attached the tube to the carb filter so that excess fuel
would be sucked into the engine.(I'm not sure that this will absolutely
prevent some spill onto the exhaust)
My opinion.
Mike
UHS Spinners
Larry McFarland wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
>
> Hi Guys,
> This morning with serious intent to fly, I found the left carburetor bypass
> flowing fuel after turning on the fuel valve. Of course, this required the
> carburetor be taken apart to check float bowl, float action and the gage
> 10.5mm distance with arms parallel with the gasket surface. It all came down
> to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel. Tried to
make
> it happen again, but it wouldn't repeat.
>
> I've real concern for this because the overflow could easily start a fire if
it weren't
> noticed. It's another thing to check each time, as the Bing manual says this
is
> a common occurance. I thought my gascolator screen which is very fine would
> sort stuff like this out.
>
> If you have this problem, don't fly it until you get it stopped, because the
manual
> says full throttle might be successful until landing and then at half throttle,
the carb would
> flood the system and the engine might stop in the middle of a landing sequence.
>
> I was curious if anyone had had this problem with their Bings and if you had
a
> better solution.
>
>
> Larry McFarland - 601HDS doing the reliability thing at 18.5 hours.
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | EAA answer to Sport Pilot Question on Gross Weight |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Weston and Judy Walker" <westonjudy@earthlink.net>
Here is a recent question I asked EAA, and their answer that follows.
Not all things with Sport Pilot are so simple.
QUESTION
Last year I built a Zenith 601XL. Based on numbers/instructions from
the designer (Chris Heintz), I declared the gross weight to be 1367 lbs
(rather than using Heintz's original 6g ultimate load design standard,
I used standard "normal category" load limits; thus I was able to
increase the gross from 1300 to 1367). I used 1367lbs on the FAA
paperwork when having it inspected for the airworthiness certificate.
If I read the Sport Pilot rule correctly, it seems I (nor anyone) would
ever be able to operate my 601XL as a sport pilot. Am I reading this
correctly?
Or, if I keep the loading below 1320 lbs, can I operate it as a sport
pilot?
Or, is there a way for me to have the airworthiness paperwork changed to
show a gross of 1320 instead of 1367?
Thanks,
Weston Walker
EAA #________
ANSWER
Weston,
This is a difficult question at this point.
=A71.1 Defines an LSA as follows:
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or
powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to
meet the following:
(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than--
(i) 660 pounds (300 kilograms) for lighter-than-air aircraft;
(ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for
operation on water; or
(iii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for
operation on water.
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power
(VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric
conditions at sea level.
(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS
for a glider.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the
use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the
aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center
of gravity.
(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including
the pilot.
(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.
(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other
than a powered glider.
(8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider.
(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a
gyroplane.
(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation
on water or a glider.
(12) Fixed or repositionable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft
intended for operation on water.
(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.
Currently, the following operating limitation is typically issued to
new amateur built aircraft.
All test flights, at a minimum, must be conducted under VFR, day only.
Guidance concerning the scope and detail of test flights can be found in
AC 90-89. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of
flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the
records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with =A7 91.319(b).
Compliance with =A7 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records
with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that
the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is
controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all
maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or
design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft
operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds
Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______ and CG
location ______ at which they were obtained."
If you have this language and if you documented your 1367 gross weight
as stated above, it is likely the FAA would determine that the aircraft
has not met the definition of an LSA since original certification and
therefore cannot be flown by a sport pilot. Although I could also argue
that you, as the builder/manufacturer, flight tested the aircraft to
1367 to establish a safety factor and that the "approved" gross weight
by you, the builder/manufacturer, is actually 1300 (of course I would
then have it placarded appropriately).
As a practical matter, the FAA admits in the preamble that it will be
difficult to determine whether an amateur built is in compliance with
the LSA definition. I don't believe the weight and balance submitted to
the FAA prior to inspection is retained. Plus, I would argue that the
"gross weight" for an amateur built is not established until the above
entry is made in the airframe logbook because until it is tested it has
not been established. So the only real documentation for gross weight
is the logbook entry. Plus, on older amateur built aircraft, there is a
very good chance that the gross weight was not required to be recorded
since the above operating limitation language was implemented about 5
years ago. The FAA preamble included the following:
"The FAA notes that compliance with light-sport aircraft parameters can
be more readily verified for type-certificated aircraft than for
amateur-built aircraft certificated under existing =A721.191 (g).
Amateur-built aircraft do not have a TC, a flight manual, or a type
certificate data sheet. Because of this, it may be difficult to
determine if aircraft with other than a standard airworthiness
certificate meet the limits listed for a light-sport aircraft and can be
operated by a sport pilot. The FAA anticipates that the aircraft design
consensus standard will include methodologies that will readily enable a
determination that an aircraft design meets the light-sport aircraft
definition."
We at EAA are unsure what the "correct" answer is at this time without
additional guidance from FAA.
Charlie Becker
EAA Aviation Services
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Carburetor bypass overflowed |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ray Montagne <ac6qj@earthlink.net>
On 9/16/04 3:28 PM, "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com> wrote:
> It all came down
> to some crud in the fuel that kept the needle from closing off fuel.
And that would be what kind of engine?
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Best Regards, Ray Montagne
Cupertino, CA
===========================================================================
Zenith Aircraft Zodiac CH-601-XL
Build Status: Rudder completed
Elevator Completed
Stabilizer Completed
Flaps Completed
Ailerons Completed
Right Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Left Wing Completed
Right Wing Tip Completed
Fuselage Under Construction
NOTE: Heavy SPAM filters in place. Replies that do not include
the word 'Zenith' or 'Zodiac' in the subject line will be
rejected and will not be viewable by me.
===========================================================================
Message 15
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Subject: | Wing Installation? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com>
I'm ready to "hang" the wings on my 701.
Are there any "tricks" I need to know about; or,
are the plans close to right?
Also, at what stage did you guys paint?
Jim
5098 701
Do not archive
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Wicks Aircraft now selling Zinc Oxide spray primer |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jimmy Parker <jwestie1@juno.com>
You can buy it at Airparts Inc. in Kansas City also.
I think it's about 8 bucks a can.
Jim
Do not archive
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