Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:16 AM - Annuals prior to 1957. (Richard T. Perry)
2. 06:44 AM - Progress Report N61BM (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
3. 06:51 AM - Re: 701 Control stick (LRM)
4. 07:20 AM - Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? (Robert Schoenberger)
5. 08:12 AM - XL Elevator (Paul Moore)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: 701 Control stick (Ken Szewc)
7. 09:16 AM - Re: XL Elevator (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
8. 09:56 AM - Re: XL Elevator (Dave Kubassek)
9. 10:45 AM - Engine mount bolt size (JERICKSON03E@aol.com)
10. 10:48 AM - Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? ()
11. 11:26 AM - Re: XL Elevator (Paul Moore)
12. 11:46 AM - Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? (Jon Croke)
13. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: XL Elevator (Rico Voss)
14. 12:38 PM - Rivet removal (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 02:00 PM - horizontal tail incident (Ron Lee)
16. 05:29 PM - Re: XL Elevator (nhulin)
17. 05:32 PM - Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions (Todd Osborne)
18. 05:38 PM - Re: XL Elevator (Gary Gower)
19. 05:47 PM - Re: Engine mount bolt size (Gary Gower)
20. 05:54 PM - Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? (Gary Gower)
21. 06:41 PM - Bellows for nose steering control rods (Mark Stauffer)
22. 06:48 PM - Re: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions (cgalley)
23. 06:52 PM - Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? (LRM)
24. 06:52 PM - Re: Engine mount bolt size (LRM)
25. 06:56 PM - Re: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions (Larry McFarland)
26. 07:40 PM - Re: wing tanks (Gerald A. Applefeld)
27. 09:06 PM - Re:701 Control stick (Dabusmith@aol.com)
28. 09:33 PM - Re: Purty (Dabusmith@aol.com)
29. 10:26 PM - Re: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions (kevinbonds@comcast.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Annuals prior to 1957. |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Richard T. Perry" <perryrt@hotmail.com>
>You have everything right except for the original COA. It was replaced at
>the first annual and the COA then was replaced every year at annual time
>until the CAA got smart and issued "permanent" COAs about 1957 give or take
>a year. Just a bit of history.
How does it go? "I defer to my learned collegue." :
)
Cy - You're absolutely right. I seem to vaugely remember something about
that from my IA text now that you mention it. Unfortunately, that was well
before my time.... :
)
I think the bottom line here, guys, is that in any given new situation, the
FAA (which is, essentially, a government entity) will try to use what ever
existing structure and rules are already in place to support new/changed
ideas (this both protects and soothes existing job-holders and makes sense
to managers) So....I'd expect that the existing rules/regulations/attitudes
will wind up being continualy threaded into the Sport Pilot work as time
goes on. Some of that is good, some is bad...
This is a incredibly massive change for an agency that's known for a more
"stately" pace. It will take a while for the change to take hold and a few
exceptions to work out the kinks.
I've got lots of questions about the maintenance end myself. Only time,
experience, and (ouch!) the rulings of NTSB administrative law judges will
tell how this all works out.
Now we return you to your regularly scheduled Zenith discussion.
Regards,
Richard T. Perry perryrt@hotmail.com
"Fraser, there's a guy on my corner who asks me every
morning if I've seen God; do you really think he
expects me to point Him out?"
"Well, you know, Ray, if you did, perhaps he'd stop
asking."
Ray Vecchio and Benton Fraser, "Hawk and a Handsaw", Due_South
Message 2
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| Subject: | Progress Report N61BM |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
I did some more test flying this weekend. I think I have a handle on my cooling
problem. I attached a duct on the front of the radiator to get more air in to
it and block the hot air from the engine compartment and exhaust from entering.
I also added some aluminum flaps ahead of the cowl exits to draw more air out
of it and added a small scoop ahesd of the oil pan. I was able to climb up
to 3500 feet at full throttle before the temps got near redline. Later, I'm going
to have to do some glass work on the cowl to incorporate these changes in
a more permanant form.
I also have a trim problem. On my first fwe flights, even with full nose up trim
I could not trim for hands off flight. I duct taped an aluminum sheet to the
trim tab to double the area and was able to trim it out on my last flight but
it still took nearly full up trim. All my flights so far have been with a light
load so the CG is towards the forward end but I still should be able to trim
it out. I may have to re-pitch the horizontal stabilizer to get more down force.
I need to put some balast in the passenger seat and try some flights with
the CG near the aft limit to get some more data before I make any major change.
Other than those two conditions, the plane flies very well. At about 1150 lbs,
the plane climbs out at over 1500 ft/min. I was able to get 125 mph IAS in level
fight, full throttle. I flew three GPS runs to check the ASI and at 90 mph
I calculated 88.5 TAS. I don't have an outside air temperature guage installed
yet so I couldn't really check the accuracy of the ASI but the fact that true
and indicated are close is a good sign. I don't think the flight was too far
off from standard conditions.
Control harmony seems pretty good. There is very little adverse yaw, the plane
will roll into a turn quite well even with out rudder input. Pitch stability seems
good but it seems to be nearly neutral in roll stability. If I put the plane
in a bank it tends to just stay there. I did try some stalls and the plane
just doesn't seem to break at the stall, it just develops a high sink rate and
has no tendency to roll in either direction. I'm not sure if I actually managed
a full stall. I've only got about an hour in the air so these are just my
initial impressions.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
I did some more test flying this weekend. I think I have a handle on my cooling
problem. I attached a duct on the front of the radiator to get more air in to
it and block the hot air from the engine compartment and exhaust from entering.
I also added some aluminum flaps ahead of the cowl exits to draw more air out
of it and added a small scoop ahesd of the oil pan. I was able to climb up
to 3500 feet at full throttle before the temps got near redline. Later, I'm going
to have to do some glass work on the cowl to incorporate these changes in
a more permanant form.
I also have a trim problem. On my first fwe flights, even with full nose up trim
I could not trim for hands off flight. I duct taped an aluminum sheet to the
trim tab to double the area and was able to trim it out on my last flight but
it still took nearly full up trim. All my flights so far have been with a light
load so the CG is towards the forward end but I still should be able to trim
it out. I may have to re-pitch the horizontal stabilizer to get more down force.
I need to put some balast in the passenger seat and try some flights with
the CG near the aft limit to get some more data before I make any major change.
Other than those two conditions, the plane flies very well. At about 1150 lbs,
the plane climbs out at over 1500 ft/min. I was able to get 125 mph IAS in level
fight, full throttle. I flew three GPS runs to check the ASI and at 90 mph
I calculated 88.5 TAS. I don't have an outside air temperature guage installed
yet so I couldn't really check the accuracy of the ASI but the fact that true
and indicated are close is a good sign. I don't think the flight was too far
off from standard conditions.
Control harmony seems pretty good. There is very little adverse yaw, the plane
will roll into a turn quite well even with out rudder input. Pitch stability seems
good but it seems to be nearly neutral in roll stability. If I put the plane
in a bank it tends to just stay there. I did try some stalls and the plane
just doesn't seem to break at the stall, it just develops a high sink rate and
has no tendency to roll in either direction. I'm not sure if I actually managed
a full stall. I've only got about an hour in the air so these are just my
initial impressions.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Control stick |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
I used a 1/4" grade 8 bolt. You could fix yours simply by drilling out the
pin and using a bolt, which I think is better anyway. Just my opinion, of
which I always have. Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: <RURUNY@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Control stick
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com
>
> I was installing the Y control stick to the pitch control rod today. I
drilled the hole in the pitch control slightly not perpendicular to the pin
on the stick. Well, while trying to force it on, I bent the pin on the
control stick at the weld. I think it cracked but am not sure. I was
surprised that it gave so easily as the force used was minimal. I was ready
to order a new stick and pitch rod but searched the archives and came up
with a Flaperon control handle picture from Dave Smith. In the photo I
noticed that he modified this attachment point on the stick as it was in
view in the photo.
> Dave, could you contact me on or off list to give me an idea what parts I
need and what I need to do a mod similar to yours. Also, you must have
modified the opposite end of the
> pitch control rod where it hooks up to the bell crank, could I get a look
at this also if you have a pic?
> Also I noticed Larry Martins center stick mod has what I think is a bolt
welded here instead of the hollow tube.
> Also any advice from others on what they have done. Thanks.
>
> Link to Dave's picture:
>
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Dabusmith@aol.com.10.03.2002/flapperon2.
jpg
>
> Brian Unruh
> Long Island, NY
> http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/
>
>
---
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Schoenberger" <hrs1@frontiernet.net>
John . . . I believe the photo manual shows the bolt you're have trouble
with installed upside down. Then it will clear. Robert Schoenberger 40%
701
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Flavin" <jflavin@intrex.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Flavin" <jflavin@intrex.net>
>
> Ladies/Gents:
>
> Per the 701 construction manual, I've already riveted the right wing nose
> skin to the bottom of the spar, and am now ready to bolt 7V2-5 (the front
> upper strut fitting) to the spar. Probably should have realized this
> before, but I now have found that there is not nearly enough clearance
> between the fitting and nose skin to put the last AN3-5A bolt through.
> Only options I can see are to remove many (if not all) of the rivets on
> the bottom spar cap so I can flex the skin back, or put a hole in the
> lower skin underneath the bolt so I can slip it into place that way.
> Needless to say, I'm not crazy about either one of those options.
>
> Any of you 701 builders run into this before? Any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
> John Flavin
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
Yesterday was not a good day to build - I think I went backward a couple of
days, at least!
Two 601XL elevator questions for the list:
The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces between
the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for this?
I've made some for this, for the open areas surrounding the trim tab, and in
the ends of the trim tab itself that I plan on installing but thought I'd
see if this would cause a problem first.
In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably not
the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN phillips
screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
Paul
Message 6
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| Subject: | 701 Control stick |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Szewc <szewc@direcway.com>
Brian,
I did almost the same thing with my stick. Although it didn't crack, I
was worried enough about it to put a solid pin through the Y stick.
Even though the control stick pressure is really light (sometimes I
forget to use trim when landing), I really think Zenith should make this
a solid piece.
Ken Szewc
N701SZ 52 hours and still no paint.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RURUNY@aol.com
Subject: Zenith-List: 701 Control stick
--> Zenith-List message posted by: RURUNY@aol.com
I was installing the Y control stick to the pitch control rod today. I
drilled the hole in the pitch control slightly not perpendicular to the
pin on the stick. Well, while trying to force it on, I bent the pin on
the control stick at the weld. I think it cracked but am not sure. I was
surprised that it gave so easily as the force used was minimal. I was
ready to order a new stick and pitch rod but searched the archives and
came up with a Flaperon control handle picture from Dave Smith. In the
photo I noticed that he modified this attachment point on the stick as
it was in view in the photo.
Dave, could you contact me on or off list to give me an idea what parts
I need and what I need to do a mod similar to yours. Also, you must have
modified the opposite end of the
pitch control rod where it hooks up to the bell crank, could I get a
look at this also if you have a pic?
Also I noticed Larry Martins center stick mod has what I think is a bolt
welded here instead of the hollow tube.
Also any advice from others on what they have done. Thanks.
Link to Dave's picture:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Dabusmith@aol.com.10.03.2002/flapper
on2.jpg
Brian Unruh
Long Island, NY
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/bunruh/
==
==
==
==
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore"
>
>
> The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces between
> the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for this?
Simplicity and weight. The filler ribs aren't needed and add a little weight. If
you want to add them for cosmetic reasons, I don't see any serious problem with
that.
>
> In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably not
> the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN phillips
> screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
>
>
> Paul
>
I used rivets on my servos, seems to work fine and it's lighter and simpler than
screws. If I ever need to replace them, it's easy to drill out the rivets.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <PMOORE505@MSN.COM>
The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces between
the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for this?
Simplicity and weight. The filler ribs aren't needed and add a little weight. If
you want to add them for cosmetic reasons, I don't see any serious problem with
that.
In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably not
the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN phillips
screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
Paul
I used rivets on my servos, seems to work fine and it's lighter and simpler than
screws. If I ever need to replace them, it's easy to drill out the rivets.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" <dkubassek@golden.net>
I riveted mine...for the same reasons as Bryan
What i would do tho now in hind site,is to add some stiffener between the
aileron and servo to eliminate some of the movment i see in the skin when
operating the trim
dave kubassek
C_FDSF XL 0235
----- Original Message -----
From: <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Elevator
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore"
> >
> >
> > The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces
between
> > the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for
this?
> Simplicity and weight. The filler ribs aren't needed and add a little
weight. If you want to add them for cosmetic reasons, I don't see any
serious problem with that.
>
> >
> > In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably
not
> > the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN
phillips
> > screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> I used rivets on my servos, seems to work fine and it's lighter and
simpler than screws. If I ever need to replace them, it's easy to drill out
the rivets.
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> In phase I testing.
> do not archive
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <PMOORE505@MSN.COM>
>
>
> The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces
between
> the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for this?
>
>
> Simplicity and weight. The filler ribs aren't needed and add a little
weight. If you want to add them for cosmetic reasons, I don't see any
serious problem with that.
>
>
> In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably not
> the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN phillips
> screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> I used rivets on my servos, seems to work fine and it's lighter and
simpler than screws. If I ever need to replace them, it's easy to drill out
the rivets.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> In phase I testing.
> do not archive
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Engine mount bolt size |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
Wondering what others are using for the engine mount to firewall bolts?
My project is a 701 with 100 HP Rotax.
The 3/16 bolts seem small for the job.
Gerry
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:42:48 -0500
--> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
Hey, now!! John Croke, in his answer says, "be sure to knock the stems out first,
and then drill them out." Exactly what is the technique here? What do you
use, how hard do you have to hit it, etc.? 'Splain me this, 'cause sure as
aluminum bends, I'll have to do a bunch of un-riveting again.
Editorially, this is why leaving the list as is is a good idea. While parts
and problems may differ, picking up techniques and solving problems can come
from any direction.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL, corvair
Working on the fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Croke<mailto:jon@joncroke.com>
To: zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com<mailto:jon@joncroke.com>>
John,
I think if you were to remove about a foot of rivets from both sides of that
location, you can raise the skin enough to get that bolt in. Drilling these
rivets out is extremely easy - esp since you have that very rigid spar
underneath to support it. Be sure to knock the stems out first and then
drill them out.. you will be surprised how fast it goes if you havent done
this before! With just reasonable care the holes will remain the same size
and then you just rerivet when you're done.
Good luck!
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Flavin" <jflavin@intrex.net<mailto:jflavin@intrex.net>>
To: <zenith-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com>>
Subject: Zenith-List: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Flavin" <jflavin@intrex.net<mailto:jflavin@intrex.net>>
>
> Ladies/Gents:
>
> Per the 701 construction manual, I've already riveted the right wing nose
> skin to the bottom of the spar, and am now ready to bolt 7V2-5 (the front
> upper strut fitting) to the spar. Probably should have realized this
> before, but I now have found that there is not nearly enough clearance
> between the fitting and nose skin to put the last AN3-5A bolt through.
> Only options I can see are to remove many (if not all) of the rivets on
> the bottom spar cap so I can flex the skin back, or put a hole in the
> lower skin underneath the bolt so I can slip it into place that way.
> Needless to say, I'm not crazy about either one of those options.
>
> Any of you 701 builders run into this before? Any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
> John Flavin
> Raleigh, NC
>
Message 11
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
Thanks. The stiffener is a good idea.
So, the force of the rivet forming doesn't crack out the mounting holes on
the servo?
I was kinda worried about that.
Paul
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" <
<mailto:dkubassek@golden.net?subjectRe:%20XL%20Elevator&replyto20040920165
3.i8KGrTl24979@matronics.com> dkubassek@golden.net>
I riveted mine...for the same reasons as Bryan
What i would do tho now in hind site,is to add some stiffener between the
aileron and servo to eliminate some of the movment i see in the skin when
operating the trim
dave kubassek
C_FDSF XL 0235
----- Original Message -----
From: <
<mailto:bryanmmartin@comcast.net?subjectRe:%20XL%20Elevator&replyto2004092
01653.i8KGrTl24979@matronics.com> bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
<mailto:zenith-list@matronics.com?subjectRe:%20XL%20Elevator&replyto200409
201653.i8KGrTl24979@matronics.com> zenith-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: XL Elevator
> --> Zenith-List message posted by:
<mailto:bryanmmartin@comcast.net?subjectRe:%20XL%20Elevator&replyto2004092
01653.i8KGrTl24979@matronics.com> bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore"
> >
> >
> > The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces
between
> > the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for
this?
> Simplicity and weight. The filler ribs aren't needed and add a little
weight. If you want to add them for cosmetic reasons, I don't see any
serious problem with that.
>
> >
> > In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably
not
> > the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN
phillips
> > screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> I used rivets on my servos, seems to work fine and it's lighter and
simpler than screws. If I ever need to replace them, it's easy to drill out
the rivets.
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> In phase I testing.
> do not archive
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <
<mailto:PMOORE505@MSN.COM?subjectRe:%20XL%20Elevator&replyto200409201653.i
8KGrTl24979@matronics.com> PMOORE505@MSN.COM>
>
>
> The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces
between
> the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for this?
>
>
> Simplicity and weight. The filler ribs aren't needed and add a little
weight. If you want to add them for cosmetic reasons, I don't see any
serious problem with that.
>
>
> In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably not
> the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN phillips
> screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else using?
>
>
> Paul
>
>
> I used rivets on my servos, seems to work fine and it's lighter and
simpler than screws. If I ever need to replace them, it's easy to drill out
the rivets.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> In phase I testing.
> do not archive
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
>
> Hey, now!! John Croke, in his answer says, "be sure to knock the stems out
> first, and then drill them out." Exactly what is the technique here? What
> do you use, how hard do you have to hit it, etc.? 'Splain me this,
> 'cause sure as aluminum bends, I'll have to do a bunch of un-riveting
> again.
If you look into the 'eye' of a rivet head... you'll see that the stem that
broke off while riveting is still in there (supposed to be!). If you leave
this in there when you drill the head off, then your drill bit is gonna hit
this, which is steel, and will dull your bit AND make it difficult to not
make the hole bigger than it originally was. So if you can support the
aluminum from behind (thats why its easy on the spar), use an old rivet stem
and a hammer to carefully knock the stem out to the rivet (leaving a hole)
and then all you have to do is drill the aluminum head and rivet out, which
is soft and makes it easy to not goober up the hole! But youl'l see that its
not always easy to support the aluminum sheet properly when you go hammering
and drilling on it.....
I may hold the record on drilling out rivets... when I crashed my 1st 701, I
removed nearly ALL rivets on that plane to salvage the parts that I wanted
to reuse... drilled CAREFULLY on the parts I wanted to save... really FAST
on the parts that I didnt want...
Took 2 days to take the plane apart... vs 2 years to put it together!
>
> Editorially, this is why leaving the list as is is a good idea. While
> parts and problems may differ, picking up techniques and solving problems
> can come from any direction.
Oh Paul... its sounds like your campaigning and influencing others how to
vote on this issue! ;)
>
> Paul Rodriguez
> 601XL, corvair
> Working on the fuselage
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore"
> <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> Thanks. The stiffener is a good idea.
> So, the force of the rivet forming doesn't crack out
> the mounting holes on
> the servo?
Paul--
It's been suggested to put a small metal washer over
the plastic hole in the servo, to avoid cracking it.
I plan to do that.
And PAULROD, on drilling out rivets.....
Not much of a problem, provided the stem isn't broken
off too high. I just drill the rivet head same size
as hole (some suggest slightly smaller) until the head
spins. Then go under to the knarly-blob side, grab
it, and with a little twist it should come out. If
the stem-fragment is too long, it needs to be removed
first.
And if you never make any mistakes, no rivets will
need to come out......
--TioRico
__________________________________
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I have had limited success when drilling out rivets using a full size
drill bit as it tends to wander of the center. This is OK if you only
have a few but for a lot of them and sure fire way of making sure you
get the drill exactly centered (and therefore avoid drilling the side of
the hole bigger), just pilot drill with a 3/32nds (#40) drill bit first.
Works perfect every time and saves a lot of time 'cos the full sized bit
will not wander.
If the stem is broken near the top you need to carefully punch the stem
down to below the top of the hole in the skin, don't have to remove it
all the way.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Voss
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: XL Elevator
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rico Voss <vozzen@yahoo.com>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore"
> <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> Thanks. The stiffener is a good idea.
> So, the force of the rivet forming doesn't crack out
> the mounting holes on
> the servo?
Paul--
It's been suggested to put a small metal washer over
the plastic hole in the servo, to avoid cracking it.
I plan to do that.
And PAULROD, on drilling out rivets.....
Not much of a problem, provided the stem isn't broken
off too high. I just drill the rivet head same size
as hole (some suggest slightly smaller) until the head
spins. Then go under to the knarly-blob side, grab
it, and with a little twist it should come out. If
the stem-fragment is too long, it needs to be removed
first.
And if you never make any mistakes, no rivets will
need to come out......
--TioRico
__________________________________
==
==
==
==
Message 15
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| Subject: | horizontal tail incident |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" <rlee468@comcast.net>
I am building 701 with a 912s, and am at the point of installing the horiz. tail
section. My question to those of you already flying is this. The instructions
say to install it so the top is parallel to the top of the fuselage. What is
not said is if that is right at the tail section of the fuselage or if one was
to string a line from front to rear of the fuselage and use that as the parallel
bench mark for this setting? These two are quite different.
If it is not set correctly one will have to trim it out with a trim tab. I intend
to put a trim tab on, but would like to have it as close as possible from the
start. Has anyone found that with the recommended setting that you need to
trim up or down in normal flight? If one or the other is normal with the recommended
setting, then maybe at the building stage I can correct it. Your opinions
are appreciated. Ron Lee Tucson, AZ
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "nhulin" <nhulin@hotmail.com>
On Mon Sep 20 - 8:12 AM , Paul Moore (pmoore505@msn.com) wrote:
<snip>Two 601XL elevator questions for the list:
> The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces
> between the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out.<snip>
> In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is
> probably not the greatest idea of them all<snip> Paul
Paul,
There is no need for additional ribs in the V cutout near the rudder. I'm
sure that all the flying Zodiacs (and I think the STOLs uses similar
configuration as well) validate Chris's design decisions. If Chris didn't
design it in, then it is probably a good idea to leave it in the hanger
before you go flying. If you choose to fill the gaps for aesthetic reasons
then use the lightest material possible (0.016). Don't seal the elevator
trailing edge completely otherwise water won't drain out and you may end up
with ice inside in winter and that could put your W&B out and make for a
very unhappy day at the airport. Same goes for the trim tab opening.
Rivets work OK on the trim tab servo. I can't remember but I think I added a
washer to spread the rivet load on the servo case.
tailwinds, ...neil
601XL/Corvair
Cincinnati
Message 17
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| Subject: | Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
Maybe the fact that I have to ask these questions indicates that I
should build from a kit, as opposed to plans, but I would really like to
learn how to do these things myself and plans-build most of my XL.
1) I have seen plans and small (up to 40") bending brakes for less than
$80. While I am sure these would work for small parts, it appears they
would have limited use in an XL. Just looking at the horizontal stab
spars, doublers, etc. sizes well in excess of 40" are the norm. Given
this, is there any way to build a relatively inexpensive 6-8' bending
brake? Somewhere to pick one up used? I am guessing the simplicity of
the 40" brakes does not work well in larger lengths, otherwise I would
expect to see them on the market. There is a rapid price jump from $60
to $1000 or more once you cross the 40" magic number.
2) Since the 1/8" radius is so common when bending metal, how do you cut
a form block to have a 1/8" radius? I know I could use a router for this
in wood, but what about metal? I cannot see how simple filing would give
decent results, as far as accuracy goes. Seems there must be a tool to
do this, maybe a metal cutting router bit?
3) When creating the lightening holes, such as in the spars, how do you
flange them? I have seen small flanging tools that you run around to
create the lip, though I have never used one. Do simple dye's exist
already with these dimensions or would one have to use a lathe to create
them in the first place?
4) When laying out form blocks for things like ribs, how do you know
where to put the flutes to take up extra space? I would guess you look
at the rivet spacing. Do you then make the fluted area's in the form
block, or simply use a fluting pliers tool to create them while forming
the ribs?
5) Also related to form blocks, and the question about cuting radius's
(radii?), it looks like you would have to put aluminum on the wood to
give it the required strength to withstand the forming process. I would
also assume this metal would have to be quit thick, maybe 1/4"? Since it
would be wasteful and expensive to use aircraft grade alum. here, are
there places that sell cheap stock aluminum? How do you cut stuff that
thick?
Okay, I think I have used more than my share of bandwidth on these
questions, so I won't ask any more for a year :-) Any pointers to good
reference/teaching materials would be much appreciated. Books, web
sites, etc. If there is enough good input back, maybe I can summarize
all this wonderful knowledge and make it available (free of course) on
my web site, or offer it to the Heintz guys for their site.
Or, should I just cough up the money and order the dang kit cause' I am
going to kill myself thinking about this nonsense :-)
--
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Paul,
Just some important advise:
Keep your plane LIGHT, if you keep adding "reinforcements" every place
you think should be needed, all you will get is a plane with to little
usable weight, and maybe very unsafe to fly (take off weigh, C of G,
etc...).
To any airplane all you are allowded to add is "simplicity and
lightness" and in this part Mr Chris Heintz is a Champion.
For every modification you make to the plans, add at least 100 hrs to
the construction time... Some mods are "domino", there is something
that also needs to be modified.
With the experience of building a 701, all I can tell you is that Mr
Heintz is a GREAT designer with LOTS of experience, possible the only
places you can make some changes are maybe in the "cosmetics" IF you
keep them light enough.
I just want to help, but as all advise, read it and do as you decide,
just keep it safe, because there are all the Zenith planes involved in
the safety records. First of all, have fun building.
Saludos
Gary Gower.
701 912S finished (just waiting paperwork for fist flight)
601 XL beguining to assemble.
Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico.
Do not archive.
--- Paul Moore <pmoore505@msn.com> wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> Yesterday was not a good day to build - I think I went backward a
> couple of
> days, at least!
>
> Two 601XL elevator questions for the list:
>
> The plans and photo guide specify no filler ribs in the open spaces
> between
> the first inside ribs and the rudder cut-out. Is there a reason for
> this?
> I've made some for this, for the open areas surrounding the trim tab,
> and in
> the ends of the trim tab itself that I plan on installing but thought
> I'd
> see if this would cause a problem first.
>
> In bolting down the Ray Allen trim servo, I assume rivets is probably
> not
> the greatest idea of them all, and am thinking something like AN
> phillips
> screws with ny-locks or something similar. What is everyone else
> using?
>
>
> Paul
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount bolt size |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
They work fine, in 20+ years, there is no notice of any 701 loosing the
engine... Is dificult to admit that such light airplanes (601 and 701)
are so well designed, the 701 deserves the nickname of "Sky Jeep".
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
PS. Most Homebuilt Designers are afraid of Improvers :-)
--- JERICKSON03E@aol.com wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
>
> Wondering what others are using for the engine mount to firewall
> bolts?
>
> My project is a 701 with 100 HP Rotax.
>
> The 3/16 bolts seem small for the job.
>
> Gerry
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Hello Jon,
Glad you are back working on your plane, how is it going?
--- Jon Croke <jon@joncroke.com> wrote:
Snip...
>
> Took 2 days to take the plane apart... vs 2 years to put it together!
>
> >
Now I can understand that could be built in one week :-) :-)
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
__________________________________
Message 21
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| Subject: | Bellows for nose steering control rods |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer@comcast.net>
I've found the Yamaha part numbers in the archives for the bellows that some
of the 801 guys are using. Have any 601 builders tried these? Is there
enough room left to right?
For the 801 guys, what are you doing on the engine side? What does the
finished product look like?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Mark Stauffer
601XL Tail finished, waiting on fuel tanks to finish wings,
rear fuselage finished, working on firewall
Odenton, MD
Do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
No need for a router or any shaping of the leading edge IF you can set the
hold down bar back. First bend a 2" by the length of your brake strip of
.032 metal. Use that as a hold down facing that will produce about a 1/16"
radius. A facing layer of 2 strips will make about a 1/8" radius. You can
vary the thickness of the facing strip is you want to make things exact.
Just remember that you have to set the hold down bar back to compensate for
the additional strip or strips.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Osborne" <todd@toddtown.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
>
> Maybe the fact that I have to ask these questions indicates that I
> should build from a kit, as opposed to plans, but I would really like to
> learn how to do these things myself and plans-build most of my XL.
>
> 1) I have seen plans and small (up to 40") bending brakes for less than
> $80. While I am sure these would work for small parts, it appears they
> would have limited use in an XL. Just looking at the horizontal stab
> spars, doublers, etc. sizes well in excess of 40" are the norm. Given
> this, is there any way to build a relatively inexpensive 6-8' bending
> brake? Somewhere to pick one up used? I am guessing the simplicity of
> the 40" brakes does not work well in larger lengths, otherwise I would
> expect to see them on the market. There is a rapid price jump from $60
> to $1000 or more once you cross the 40" magic number.
>
> 2) Since the 1/8" radius is so common when bending metal, how do you cut
> a form block to have a 1/8" radius? I know I could use a router for this
> in wood, but what about metal? I cannot see how simple filing would give
> decent results, as far as accuracy goes. Seems there must be a tool to
> do this, maybe a metal cutting router bit?
>
> 3) When creating the lightening holes, such as in the spars, how do you
> flange them? I have seen small flanging tools that you run around to
> create the lip, though I have never used one. Do simple dye's exist
> already with these dimensions or would one have to use a lathe to create
> them in the first place?
>
> 4) When laying out form blocks for things like ribs, how do you know
> where to put the flutes to take up extra space? I would guess you look
> at the rivet spacing. Do you then make the fluted area's in the form
> block, or simply use a fluting pliers tool to create them while forming
> the ribs?
>
> 5) Also related to form blocks, and the question about cuting radius's
> (radii?), it looks like you would have to put aluminum on the wood to
> give it the required strength to withstand the forming process. I would
> also assume this metal would have to be quit thick, maybe 1/4"? Since it
> would be wasteful and expensive to use aircraft grade alum. here, are
> there places that sell cheap stock aluminum? How do you cut stuff that
> thick?
>
> Okay, I think I have used more than my share of bandwidth on these
> questions, so I won't ask any more for a year :-) Any pointers to good
> reference/teaching materials would be much appreciated. Books, web
> sites, etc. If there is enough good input back, maybe I can summarize
> all this wonderful knowledge and make it available (free of course) on
> my web site, or offer it to the Heintz guys for their site.
>
> Or, should I just cough up the money and order the dang kit cause' I am
> going to kill myself thinking about this nonsense :-)
>
> --
> Todd Osborne
> Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
> Web Site: www.toddtown.com
> MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
> AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
Now Jon, what kind of list would this be if we couldn't express our
opinions? And why keep it secret? Shoot I don't mind at all if the world
knows how I voted and why. I totally agree with Paul, even the 601 folks
have a good idea once in a while.
Do not archive, just fussing. Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: last bolt on 701 front upper strut fitting?
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: <PAULROD36@msn.com>
> >
> > Hey, now!! John Croke, in his answer says, "be sure to knock the stems
out
> > first, and then drill them out." Exactly what is the technique here?
What
> > do you use, how hard do you have to hit it, etc.? 'Splain me this,
> > 'cause sure as aluminum bends, I'll have to do a bunch of un-riveting
> > again.
>
> If you look into the 'eye' of a rivet head... you'll see that the stem
that
> broke off while riveting is still in there (supposed to be!). If you
leave
> this in there when you drill the head off, then your drill bit is gonna
hit
> this, which is steel, and will dull your bit AND make it difficult to not
> make the hole bigger than it originally was. So if you can support the
> aluminum from behind (thats why its easy on the spar), use an old rivet
stem
> and a hammer to carefully knock the stem out to the rivet (leaving a hole)
> and then all you have to do is drill the aluminum head and rivet out,
which
> is soft and makes it easy to not goober up the hole! But youl'l see that
its
> not always easy to support the aluminum sheet properly when you go
hammering
> and drilling on it.....
>
> I may hold the record on drilling out rivets... when I crashed my 1st 701,
I
> removed nearly ALL rivets on that plane to salvage the parts that I wanted
> to reuse... drilled CAREFULLY on the parts I wanted to save... really FAST
> on the parts that I didnt want...
>
> Took 2 days to take the plane apart... vs 2 years to put it together!
>
> >
> > Editorially, this is why leaving the list as is is a good idea. While
> > parts and problems may differ, picking up techniques and solving
problems
> > can come from any direction.
>
> Oh Paul... its sounds like your campaigning and influencing others how to
> vote on this issue! ;)
> >
> > Paul Rodriguez
> > 601XL, corvair
> > Working on the fuselage
>
>
---
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount bolt size |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
I don't guess Zenith has any problem with using 3/16" but I agree with you
and used 1/4" on all six firewall points. My engine is a little heavier
than a Rotax, but I still would have changed them out. Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: <JERICKSON03E@aol.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Engine mount bolt size
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: JERICKSON03E@aol.com
>
> Wondering what others are using for the engine mount to firewall bolts?
>
> My project is a 701 with 100 HP Rotax.
>
> The 3/16 bolts seem small for the job.
>
> Gerry
>
>
---
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Todd,
I'll put an answer behind each question you posted.
Subject: Zenith-List: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
>
> Maybe the fact that I have to ask these questions indicates that I
> should build from a kit, as opposed to plans, but I would really like to
> learn how to do these things myself and plans-build most of my XL.
>
Response: Nothing says you have to know a lot when you start. If you knew
it all it wouldn't
be as much fun. The build process will teach you a lot about metal working
and yourself.
And, you get to meet a great bunch of people just like yourself at the deep
end of the pool.
> 1) I have seen plans and small (up to 40") bending brakes for less than
> $80. While I am sure these would work for small parts, it appears they
> would have limited use in an XL. Just looking at the horizontal stab
> spars, doublers, etc. sizes well in excess of 40" are the norm. Given
> this, is there any way to build a relatively inexpensive 6-8' bending
> brake? Somewhere to pick one up used? I am guessing the simplicity of
> the 40" brakes does not work well in larger lengths, otherwise I would
> expect to see them on the market. There is a rapid price jump from $60
> to $1000 or more once you cross the 40" magic number.
Answer: Most bending can be done with less than a 48" brake. I did the
research for bending all the
stuff on the HDS and ended up making an 8-footer that weighs no less than
500 lbs to do my plane.
Still, there are work-arounds, like getting to know your school's shop
teacher, or a sheet metal & heating
shop. Don't get stuck on this one element, as it's not enough to stop you.
> 2) Since the 1/8" radius is so common when bending metal, how do you cut
> a form block to have a 1/8" radius? I know I could use a router for this
> in wood, but what about metal? I cannot see how simple filing would give
> decent results, as far as accuracy goes. Seems there must be a tool to
> do this, maybe a metal cutting router bit?
Answer: Metal form blocks are only nice to have but not a necessity. Use
5-layer plywood from Lowe's and you
route the edges. You can file them as well and the aluminum won't know the
difference when it's bent. You could probably build 5 or more planes with
one set of well made plywood forms.
> 3) When creating the lightening holes, such as in the spars, how do you
> flange them? I have seen small flanging tools that you run around to
> create the lip, though I have never used one. Do simple dye's exist
> already with these dimensions or would one have to use a lathe to create
> them in the first place?
Answer: You can turn the same plywood into dies for flanging, or you can
simply use a pair of bearings bolted
next to one another on a piece of square tube for hand flanging. I've done
both and they both work fine.
>
> 4) When laying out form blocks for things like ribs, how do you know
> where to put the flutes to take up extra space? I would guess you look
> at the rivet spacing. Do you then make the fluted area's in the form
> block, or simply use a fluting pliers tool to create them while forming
> the ribs?
Answer: Fluting requires you determine your rivet spacing and predetermine
exactly where each rivet will go.
Then you use a round file to put a groove about 1/4" diameter at each
location. Most of this technique is covered
at several places in the Matronics archives or of the several web sites
available on these projects.
>
> 5) Also related to form blocks, and the question about cuting radius's
> (radii?), it looks like you would have to put aluminum on the wood to
> give it the required strength to withstand the forming process. I would
> also assume this metal would have to be quite thick, maybe 1/4"? Since it
> would be wasteful and expensive to use aircraft grade alum. here, are
> there places that sell cheap stock aluminum? How do you cut stuff that
> thick?
Answer: Sandwich and bolt the aluminum blank between plywood rib forms and
lead off with the bend process of 35-degrees with a rubber hammer, another
35-degrees with a harder plastic hammer and fluting pliers, a last round of
bending and tapping a piece of round steel into each fluting indentation to
finish the work. This is oversimplificaton, but without getting into
included 7-degree back angles etc, that's about the jist of it.
>
> Okay, I think I have used more than my share of bandwidth on these
> questions, so I won't ask any more for a year :-) Any pointers to good
> reference/teaching materials would be much appreciated. Books, web
> sites, etc. If there is enough good input back, maybe I can summarize
> all this wonderful knowledge and make it available (free of course) on
> my web site, or offer it to the Heintz guys for their site.
Answer: Bengilis books, the Standard Aircraft Handbook, and sites like
this.
They already have all the answers, so you only have to ask the relevant
questions as you
need them, either here or from Nick at ZACs if it's really necessary.
>
> Or, should I just cough up the money and order the dang kit cause' I am
> going to kill myself thinking about this nonsense :-)
>
Answer: Knowlege has a price in time for each approach. I'm a plans builder
and there's a lot of frustration
in going this way, but I'd be concerned that the kit approach could be
frustrating as well. Zenith guidance is good enough for most, but there
are still a lot of questions that everyone has to ask.
Just ask the one you need at the time you need it and you'll likely get a
bunch of responses.
Recomendation: Do the rudder kit, and buy the plans in their entirety.
Work on no more than one part at a time and within one assembly at a time
and you can decide later, when it's more apparent, what you were best meant
to do. ZAC will work with you on this one as well, selling you singular
parts or kits as you are ready.
If you really need to see what scratch-building is about, visit my site and
scan the 7-segment journal of 5-years and look at the several hundred
pictures and you can get a handle on what the joy of building your own parts
can be.
Best of luck to you
Larry McFarland - plans built 601HDS @ www.macsmachine.com
Do not Archive
Message 26
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gerald A. Applefeld" <jerryvmd@blazenet.net>
Jim,
Thanks for the reply. I'd really not like to take the plane out of service to
unrivet the nose skin to install tanks. I only have 13 hours total on it to
date. Ultimately leading edge would be better but I think baggage locker
tanks would be better in the short term.
Thanks again for the reply.
Jerry
Jim and Lucy wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy <jpollard@ciaccess.com>
>
> I have some 6 gallon tanks that go between the nose ribs for an hd.
> Not to hard to put in and does not mess up your baggage area.
> 300 can plus shipping
> Jim Pollard
> Merlin Ont
>
> At 04:37 PM 9/14/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gerald A. Applefeld"
> ><jerryvmd@blazenet.net>
> >
> >To the list:
> >I'm considering adding wing locker tanks to my flying 601HD with a
> >Jabiru 3300. Currently have the 16 gal header tank, but at 6 gal/hr
> >only have about 2 hours with reserve. Does any one have spare tanks
> >they are considering selling? Please contact me off list. Thanks
> >Jerry
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re:701 Control stick |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com
>I drilled the hole in the pitch control slightly not perpendicular to the
pin on the stick
Brian
I reamed the attach tube and installed a 3/16" bolt inside the tube. I
thought that might give some redundancy at both ends of the elevator control.
The flap handle works great except I have to reach forward too much when the
flap handle is at zero deg. This requires Ioose a shoulder strap. I really
have found no need for the 30 degree position so I plan to raise the handle to
the 15 degree position and make it the new zero degree position. I lack
about a 1/16th of an inch from rod end to rod end from making the change now.
BTW. I added lift strut fairings and was surprised to get at least five MPH
gain. My plane cruises at approximately 93 MPH indicated at 5500 RPM. I just
eyeballed them. I also do not have cuffs at either end.
Dave Smith
Graham Wa.
701 912s
275hrs.
Message 28
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Dabusmith@aol.com
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/lrm@isp.com.09.18.2004/index.html
Larry
Damn Larry. I can't wait to see your plane fly! Is it stressed for all that?
Beautiful job!
Dave Smith
Graham WA.
>do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Sheet Metal Forming, Bending, etc. Questions |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net
Todd
3/4" MDF is perfect stuff for making the forming blocks. You should only, possibly,
need to face the nose rib blocks with thick .125 aluminum because of the
number of ribs you will have to make with that one set of blocks and the thickness
of the .025 coupled with the tight bend at the nose (similar to the Stab
end ribs in difficulty but you only need two of those). 3)Also you will have to
have the hole flanging dies made for you or find someone who will let you borrow
them. 4) The plans show the location for the "crimps" or "flutes". And as
far as when to put them in the ribs you can do it while in the blocks (you can
use a router bit to modify the blocks for this) or you can do like I do and
just wait to finish the flutes until You remove the ribs from the blocks by putting
only a light crimp in them while in the blocks and not bending them all
the way down until the are out of the blocks (you will find that you will have
to form them by hand against a stop block on the tab
le anyway regardless of wich method you use--using a square along the edge).
The bottom line is that a lot of these questions you will quickly find an answer
to as soon as you buy some aluminum and start bending. Don't give it to much
thought. Experiment a little. The important thing is that you build and learn.
Dive in dude.
You should buy Tony Bingelis's books on Sportplane construction and check out Scott Laughlin web site http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ buy a small break and have someone else make the large bends for you (the rear chanel in the wings are a full 12').
Hope this helps
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne
>
> Maybe the fact that I have to ask these questions indicates that I
> should build from a kit, as opposed to plans, but I would really like to
> learn how to do these things myself and plans-build most of my XL.
>
> 1) I have seen plans and small (up to 40") bending brakes for less than
> $80. While I am sure these would work for small parts, it appears they
> would have limited use in an XL. Just looking at the horizontal stab
> spars, doublers, etc. sizes well in excess of 40" are the norm. Given
> this, is there any way to build a relatively inexpensive 6-8' bending
> brake? Somewhere to pick one up used? I am guessing the simplicity of
> the 40" brakes does not work well in larger lengths, otherwise I would
> expect to see them on the market. There is a rapid price jump from $60
> to $1000 or more once you cross the 40" magic number.
>
> 2) Since the 1/8" radius is so common when bending metal, how do you cut
> a form block to have a 1/8" radius? I know I could use a router for this
> in wood, but what about metal? I cannot see how simple filing would give
> decent results, as far as accuracy goes. Seems there must be a tool to
> do this, maybe a metal cutting router bit?
>
> 3) When creating the lightening holes, such as in the spars, how do you
> flange them? I have seen small flanging tools that you run around to
> create the lip, though I have never used one. Do simple dye's exist
> already with these dimensions or would one have to use a lathe to create
> them in the first place?
>
> 4) When laying out form blocks for things like ribs, how do you know
> where to put the flutes to take up extra space? I would guess you look
> at the rivet spacing. Do you then make the fluted area's in the form
> block, or simply use a fluting pliers tool to create them while forming
> the ribs?
>
> 5) Also related to form blocks, and the question about cuting radius's
> (radii?), it looks like you would have to put aluminum on the wood to
> give it the required strength to withstand the forming process. I would
> also assume this metal would have to be quit thick, maybe 1/4"? Since it
> would be wasteful and expensive to use aircraft grade alum. here, are
> there places that sell cheap stock aluminum? How do you cut stuff that
> thick?
>
> Okay, I think I have used more than my share of bandwidth on these
> questions, so I won't ask any more for a year :-) Any pointers to good
> reference/teaching materials would be much appreciated. Books, web
> sites, etc. If there is enough good input back, maybe I can summarize
> all this wonderful knowledge and make it available (free of course) on
> my web site, or offer it to the Heintz guys for their site.
>
> Or, should I just cough up the money and order the dang kit cause' I am
> going to kill myself thinking about this nonsense :-)
>
> --
> Todd Osborne
> Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
> Web Site: www.toddtown.com
> MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
> AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Todd
3/4" MDF is perfect stuff for making the forming blocks. You should only, possibly,
need to face the nose rib blocks with thick .125 aluminum because of the
number of ribs you will have to make with that one set of blocks and the thickness
of the .025 coupled with the tight bend at the nose (similar to the Stab
end ribs in difficulty but you only need two of those). 3)Also you will have to
have the hole flanging dies made for you or find someone who will let you borrow
them. 4) The plans show the location for the "crimps" or "flutes". And as
far as when to put them in the ribs you can do it while in the blocks (you can
use a router bit to modify the blocks for this) or you can do like I do and
just wait tofinish the flutes until You remove the ribs from the blocks by putting
only a light crimp in them while in the blocks and not bending them all the
way down until the are out of the blocks (you will find that you will have
to form them by hand against a stop block on
the table anyway regardless of wich method you use--using a square along the
edge).
The bottom line is that a lot of these questions you will quickly find an answer
to as soon as you buy some aluminum and start bending. Don't give it to much
thought. Experiment a little.The important thing is that you build and learn.
Dive in dude.
You should buy Tony Bingelis's books on Sportplane construction and check out Scott Laughlin web site http://www.cooknwithgas.com/buy a small break and have someone else make the large bends for you (the rear chanel in the wings are a full 12').
Hope this helps
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <TODD@TODDTOWN.COM>
Maybe the fact that I have to ask these questions indicates that I
should build from a kit, as opposed to plans, but I would really like to
learn how to do these things myself and plans-build most of my XL.
1) I have seen plans and small (up to 40") bending brakes for less than
$80. While I am sure these would work for small parts, it appears they
would have limited use in an XL. Just looking at the horizontal stab
spars, doublers, etc. sizes well in excess of 40" are the norm. Given
this, is there any way to build a relatively inexpensive 6-8' bending
brake? Somewhere to pick one up used? I am guessing the simplicity of
the 40" brakes does not work well i
n larger lengths, otherwise I would
expect to see them on the market. There is a rapid price jump from $60
to $1000 or more once you cross the 40" magic number.
2) Since the 1/8" radius is so common when bending metal, how do you cut
a form block to have a 1/8" radius? I know I could use a router for this
in wood, but what about metal? I cannot see how simple filing would give
decent results, as far as accuracy goes. Seems there must be a tool to
do this, maybe a metal cutting router bit?
3) When creating the lightening holes, such as in the spars, how do you
flange them? I have seen small flanging tools that you run around to
create the lip, though I have never used one. Do simple dye's exist
already with these dimensions or would one have to use a lathe to create
them in the first place?
4) When laying out form blocks for things li
ke ribs, how do you know
where to put the flutes to take up extra space? I would guess you look
at the rivet spacing. Do you then make the fluted area's in the form
block, or simply use a fluting pliers tool to create them while forming
the ribs?
5) Also related to form blocks, and the question about cuting radius's
(radii?), it looks like you would have to put aluminum on the wood to
give it the required strength to withstand the forming process. I would
also assume this metal would have to be quit thick, maybe 1/4"? Since it
would be wasteful and expensive to use aircraft grade alum. here, are
there places that sell cheap stock aluminum? How do you cut stuff that
thick?
Okay, I think I have used more than my share of bandwidth on these
questions, so I won't ask any more for a year :-) Any pointers to good
reference/teaching materia
ls would be much appreciated. Books, web
sites, etc. If there is enough good input back, maybe I can summarize
all this wonderful knowledge and make it available (free of course) on
my web site, or offer it to the Heintz guys for their site.
Or, should I just cough up the money and order the dang kit cause' I am
going to kill myself thinking about this nonsense :-)
--
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
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