---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/01/04: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:32 AM - XL Cabin Width, actual (Brett) 2. 05:15 AM - Re: XL Cabin Width, actual (Scott Laughlin) 3. 05:24 AM - bending & brakes (Robert Dziewiontkoski) 4. 05:38 AM - material list (ron wehba) 5. 06:26 AM - Spring Gear for 601HDS (Gary A. Boothe) 6. 07:05 AM - Re: bending & brakes (VideoFlyer@aol.com) 7. 07:18 AM - Re: Spring Gear for 601HDS (David Barth) 8. 07:51 AM - Fitting into a CH 601 XL (Ken Hornstein) 9. 07:58 AM - 701 nose skin measurements () 10. 08:05 AM - Re: Surface Prep for Painting (Ihab Awad) 11. 09:00 AM - Re: CH200 and CH 250 Vs Ch 601 (Woody Sulloway) 12. 09:35 AM - Re: XL Cabin Width, actual () 13. 10:25 AM - Re: XL Cabin Width, actual (Scott Laughlin) 14. 12:09 PM - Re: Workshop heating (Keith Norton) 15. 01:51 PM - top window 7F19-1 (Ron Lee) 16. 02:25 PM - Re: Spring Gear for 601HDS (Gary A. Boothe) 17. 06:22 PM - Re: top window 7F19-1 (LRM) 18. 07:02 PM - Shop heating (Tony Bonsell) 19. 07:41 PM - Re: bending & brakes (Jim and Lucy) 20. 09:52 PM - Re: bending & brakes&shop heat (Randy L. Thwing) 21. 10:24 PM - Re: Shop heating (Frank Stutzman) 22. 11:24 PM - 601XL Rudder Tip Rib Rivets (Todd Osborne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:00 AM PST US From: "Brett " Subject: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " My 601 XL is 43.5" at the back of the seat. Outside to outside. It is 41" inside to inside at or about your shoulders. I couldn't find 44" anywhere. Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:10 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" Brett and John: Mine measures 44-1/16" outside to outside at the widest point just in front of the seat back. I made the parts according to the plans as best I could including the jig for bending upper longerons and the seatback. These items set the cabin width. My upper, front longerons are made from 1/8" thick angle. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Brett " Subject: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " My 601 XL is 43.5" at the back of the seat. Outside to outside. It is 41" inside to inside at or about your shoulders. I couldn't find 44" anywhere. Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:16 AM PST US From: "Robert Dziewiontkoski" Subject: Zenith-List: bending & brakes Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:14:16 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Dziewiontkoski" Just curious.... Why not use an aluminum siding brake? They are readily available to buy/rent/borrow.... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:38 AM PST US From: "ron wehba" Subject: Zenith-List: material list --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" Hi all, finally got my puter fixed, but lost everything on it, a while back someone sent me a material list for the 701, sure would like to have it again,,also I think someone around the dallas,tx area has a flying 701, would like to look at one closeup, thanks ron wehba sweetwater,tx minimax driver now. 701 soon I hope! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:59 AM PST US From: "Gary A. Boothe" Subject: Zenith-List: Spring Gear for 601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" Hi All, I read somewhere that a spring landing gear for an HD or HDS is being used or tried. I have plans for an HDS with tailwheel and am very interested in the spring gear if anyone can help. Thanks, Gary Boothe Corvair Power ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:29 AM PST US From: VideoFlyer@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: bending & brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com I used an aluminum siding brake on some of the parts for my XL. The problem with them is...they are not designed to handle very thick aluminum. Some of the longer pieces of .025 in particular were just "too much" for the siding brake. The throat on a siding brake can also be a limiter. Also, many siding brakes will make a sharp bend rather than a radiused bend. If you can find one that does an 1/8" radius bend, it will work for many of the pieces that you need. Make sure the clamping force is tight enough to prevent creeping of the metal. Dave ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:32 AM PST US From: David Barth Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Spring Gear for 601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth Hey Gary. check out: http://www.ch601.org/builder%20resources.htm Look for Aluminum Spring Gear for HD/HDS under the heading: "Zodiac Changes" Mark - cdngoose - and I (primarily Mark) have tried to make this a true portal for all things "601" If anyone has information they think should go on the ch601.org website, please let Mark or I know. Thanks David "Gary A. Boothe" wrote: --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" Hi All, I read somewhere that a spring landing gear for an HD or HDS is being used or tried. I have plans for an HDS with tailwheel and am very interested in the spring gear if anyone can help. Thanks, Gary Boothe Corvair Power David Barth 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? Working on Wings www.ch601.org --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:19 AM PST US From: Ken Hornstein Subject: Zenith-List: Fitting into a CH 601 XL WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yPkEpSD@*e` --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Hornstein Howdy all, I've been researching the possibility of building a kit plane, or perhaps buying one of the upcoming S-LSA that should be coming out on the market in the next 12 months or so (I hope). From what I've found so far, the Zodiac XL would be a one possible candidate. The one thing that concerns me is that ... well, I'm not exactly a supermodel. I know that I've heard lots of people say, "Hey, I weight xxx, I'm yyy tall, and I fit into one just fine." That's very encouraging ... but I'd rather try one out myself before I commit the cash for one. I happen to live in the Washington, DC metro area, and I was wondering if there was anyone in the area who had a completed or partially complete 601 series aircraft that they would be willing to let me sit in, just to try it on for size. Just FYI, I did my primary training in a 172, and I didn't have too many problems, although if the person sitting next to me was larger as well, the seating was a bit more "friendly" that I normally would prefer. After a bit of math, I determine that a 152 at full fuel is essentially a single person aircraft for me :-/ (Okay, I could take a small child or a shorter woman with me, but that would be pushing it). --Ken Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:56 AM PST US From: Subject: Zenith-List: 701 nose skin measurements --> Zenith-List message posted by: I'm just completing the right wing on my 701 and have come to the laying out / cutting of the nose skin coordinates as per the plans. My Q. is, looking at the coordinate chart on 7V9, at X400 coord. the Y coord. takes a dip inwards (270). At the X350 and 450 coords. the Y coord. is 290/292 respectively. Why does it go in at the x400 point ? It does,nt look right laid out on the wing tip and it doesn,nt appear to line up with anything on the fibreglass wing tip which I got from ZAC. Is this a typo ?? Seems to me it should be around 290, not 270. Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft SmartScreen Technology. Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:46 AM PST US From: Ihab Awad Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Surface Prep for Painting --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ihab Awad On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:19:35 -0400 09/30/2004 13:27:09, George F May wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: George F May > I found this website on a non-chromate, non-alodine prep system. Is > anyone familiar with this product or has tried it? > http://www.terravendi.com/terravendi-main-en.asp I hope this is not just obvious stuff but.... The site claims "corrosion protection" offhand, and lists the DoD report as supporting evidence. However, it is important to note that the actual DoD report (Executive Summary) says -- "2. From a corrosion preventive point of view, keeping both the chromate conversion coating and the chromate containing primer would be preferable. However, laboratory testing has shown that as long as we have chrome in the primer, the corrosion protective properties of our modern aircraft paint systems will suffer little." In other words, we already have the suspenders (chromate primer), so we can do away with the belt (Alodine pretreatment). Also, I would ask a lot of questions about the compatibility of a "self-etching" primer with a PreKote treated surface. The ZAC-recommended Cortec 373 has "vapor phase" magic that actively suppresses corrosion. Hope this helps. Peace, Ihab ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:37 AM PST US From: Woody Sulloway Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH200 and CH 250 Vs Ch 601 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Woody Sulloway Jim, thanks for the info. I am a group member, so I should be able to access the files Jim and Lucy wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy > >At 08:14 PM 9/30/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Woody Sulloway >> >> >>Hi Folks, >>I'm contemplating buying a Zenith/Zodiac, Obviously the specifications for >>the 601 are on the zenith site, but what are the differences between the >>CH200 and CH250 >>verses the CH601 or HD and HDS? >> >> > > >I uploaded some files with the zenair aircraft handout flyers for the >older models I scanned and zipped. > >These give you the specs on most of the older ones that are not >sold now. > >zenairold1.zip and zenairold2.zip are the ones you are looking for > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zenithkitaircraft/files/ > > >You may need to join this group to get them? > > >Jim Pollard >merlin ont >cutting holes in instrument pannel > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:47 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:30:02 -0500 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Scott, how about a little more information on the jig you used for the longerons? I think there are several of us using I/8" angle, and bare hands and c-clamps are pretty imprecise. You got pitchas? Thanks, Paul Rodriguez 601XL, corvair Working on the fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Laughlin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:13 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" > Brett and John: Mine measures 44-1/16" outside to outside at the widest point just in front of the seat back. I made the parts according to the plans as best I could including the jig for bending upper longerons and the seatback. These items set the cabin width. My upper, front longerons are made from 1/8" thick angle. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Brett " > To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:31:21 -0700 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " > My 601 XL is 43.5" at the back of the seat. Outside to outside. It is 41" inside to inside at or about your shoulders. I couldn't find 44" anywhere. Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:14 AM PST US From: "Scott Laughlin" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" You talkin ta me? Sure I got pichas! Drawing 6-B-11 has the template dimensions at the top, right corner. I used MDF from Lowes, so it was big and heavy. Actually I used part of my work table when I downsized it from 12' to a 6' table. Here's a photo of the bending jig - Larry McFarland gets credit for the tool design. Larry used castors (wheels), but I had some aluminum pipe laying around and used it instead: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/7_28_04_LongeronBending.JPG It takes a little patience, but you can bend it so it rests easy on the template and get both longerons almost identical. It tends to bend in both directions so some tweaking is necessary. The second one went faster than the first. Let me know if you have any questions. Scott Laughlin http://www.cooknwithgas.com/ Starting to look like an airplane ----Original Message Follows---- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: Scott, how about a little more information on the jig you used for the longerons? I think there are several of us using I/8" angle, and bare hands and c-clamps are pretty imprecise. You got pitchas? Thanks, Paul Rodriguez 601XL, corvair Working on the fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Laughlin To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:13 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scott Laughlin" > Brett and John: Mine measures 44-1/16" outside to outside at the widest point just in front of the seat back. I made the parts according to the plans as best I could including the jig for bending upper longerons and the seatback. These items set the cabin width. My upper, front longerons are made from 1/8" thick angle. Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Brett " > To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: XL Cabin Width, actual Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:31:21 -0700 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " > My 601 XL is 43.5" at the back of the seat. Outside to outside. It is 41" inside to inside at or about your shoulders. I couldn't find 44" anywhere. Thanks Brett Ray www.hog-air.com Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:56 PM PST US From: Keith Norton Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Workshop heating --> Zenith-List message posted by: Keith Norton My shop is a 40' insulated shipping container (or conex). It is very tight with little airflow unless I crack a door. I don't like to use combustion heat in there but I used to do it. Currently, I am running two 220v electric heaters which are expensive ($150/month running 24/7) in the winter. Eventually, I plan to run in-floor hot water heat fed from my outdoor boiler. Keith Norton Palmer, AK 701 - Waiting on plans and first sub-kit. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:56 PM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Zenith-List: top window 7F19-1 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" Looking for suggestions on the installation of the top window 7F19-1. I am concerned about water leakage, wind noise and a neat looking job. Has anyone sealed it with anything to keep out water and noise? Those of you who are already flying and or have your planes sitting outside will know if this is a problem or not. Ron Do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:42 PM PST US From: "Gary A. Boothe" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Spring Gear for 601HDS --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" Hi David, Thanks for the quick response. I saw that websight link but couldn't figure out who to contact about progress, testing to date, etc. Zenith has told me that spring gear is not an option for the HDS, and if that's what I want I need to consider changing to the XL. I am encouraged by the images on your sight. Please tell me how to get more info as I would like to continue with the HDS. Gary Boothe WW Corvair Power - 601 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Barth" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Spring Gear for 601HDS > --> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth > > Hey Gary. > check out: > http://www.ch601.org/builder%20resources.htm > > Look for Aluminum Spring Gear for HD/HDS under the heading: "Zodiac > Changes" > > Mark - cdngoose - and I (primarily Mark) have tried to make this a true > portal for all things "601" If anyone has information they think > should go on the ch601.org website, please let Mark or I know. Thanks > David > > > "Gary A. Boothe" wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary A. Boothe" > > Hi All, > > I read somewhere that a spring landing gear for an HD or HDS is being used > or tried. I have plans for an HDS with tailwheel and am very interested in > the spring gear if anyone can help. > > Thanks, > Gary Boothe > Corvair Power > > > David Barth > 601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done? > Working on Wings > www.ch601.org > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:38 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: top window 7F19-1 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" Use weather strip tape, you can get it at any hardware store. Larry N1345L P.S. Get the marine/auto usage kind, I got mine at Lowe's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Zenith-List: top window 7F19-1 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lee" > > Looking for suggestions on the installation of the top window 7F19-1. I am concerned about water leakage, wind noise and a neat looking job. Has anyone sealed it with anything to keep out water and noise? Those of you who are already flying and or have your planes sitting outside will know if this is a problem or not. Ron > Do not archive > > --- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Shop heating From: Tony Bonsell --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tony Bonsell Thanks for all the great replies! Propane sounds great, but jari's right, geothermal is the way to go. Think there might be a volcano out behind the barn. Better start digging... ****************************************************** Tony Bonsell (tbonsell@luxuria.com) CI-FKF Luxuria + Apparatus Design Communications 535 Cragg Road, RR #3 Uxbridge, Ontario L9P 1R3 Voice: 905.852.3848 http://www.luxuria.com ****************************************************** ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:12 PM PST US From: Jim and Lucy Subject: Re: Zenith-List: bending & brakes --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim and Lucy At 07:14 AM 10/1/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Robert Dziewiontkoski" > >Just curious.... > >Why not use an aluminum siding brake? > >They are readily available to buy/rent/borrow.... I tried one. Needed to stack up 3 previously bent pieces to get the proper radius. It was ok for very short bends but anything longer than 12 inches and it would warp the part. Aluminum siding material is much softer and easier to bend than 6061. Jim Pollard Merlin Ont ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:17 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: bending & brakes&shop heat --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" My experience is just the opposite, I have a 10' Tapco that is rated to .032" that I have used to bend all the parts up to and including that thickness for a plans built 701. You do have to build up the nose with previously bent material to get the radius correct. The parts it just wouldn't bend were the .040" x 6'? rear fuselage longerons. At the time I borrowed a shop brake for those. I have since bought a Roper-Whitney 8' x 16 ga. (mild steel rated) shop brake but have yet to bend a ZA part on it. I have pictures of the Tapco if needed. Regarding shop heat, we use a "space heater", you know, the jet engine that sits on wheels on the floor and is designed to use kerosene. When real kerosene is used there is a very strong objectionable smell that fills the place. I use a mix of about 10 to 20% regular unleaded auto gas mixed with No. 2 diesel fuel. This approximates cold weather mix diesel fuel (No.1). It works great and has almost no noticable smell. Now I can't believe it is healthy to breath the products of combustion of this mix, but as ALL these heaters must be used with adequate ventilation, we have had no problems. DO VENTILATE PROPERLY!!! My heater has a 8 gallon fuel tank. I take it to the gas station and put in one gallon of unleaded, then fill the remainder with NO. 2 diesel. It does get cold here once in awhile. Regards, Randy L. Thwing, 701 plans, Las Vegas > >Just curious.... > > > >Why not use an aluminum siding brake? > > > >They are readily available to buy/rent/borrow.... > > > I tried one. Needed to stack up 3 previously bent pieces to get the proper > radius. It was ok for very short bends but anything longer > than 12 inches and it would warp the part. Aluminum siding material > is much softer and easier to bend than 6061. > > Jim Pollard > Merlin Ont ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:53 PM PST US From: Frank Stutzman Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Shop heating --> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Tony Bonsell wrote: > Propane sounds great, but jari's right, geothermal is the way to go. Think > there might be a volcano out behind the barn. Better start digging... Ha! You joke. I'm currently sitting about 40 miles southeast of Mt. Saint Helens. Considering the steam it was venting at about 12:30 today, I'd say the chances of the wood stove in my shop becomming redundant is more than nil. Maybe not much more than nil, but... Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:22 PM PST US From: Todd Osborne Subject: Zenith-List: 601XL Rudder Tip Rib Rivets --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne The plans clearly state there are 2 A4 rivets in each side of the connector piece that holds the rudder tip rib to the spar, but the photo right next to it clearly shows there being 4 rivets in the top of the tip rib. What have you done? 4 rivets would be tight in such a small area, which brings up another point, why is the side that connect to the spar web so dang long? If it only gets 2 rivets, like the top, seems a peice that has equal sides would be fine. The plans don't show it, and the manual does not say it, but I have seen Zodiac's with rivets through the rudder skin into the tip rib forward of the spar. Should there be any here? Thanks. -- Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com