Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:17 AM - Re: 701 Landing grear axle (Fred Sanford)
2. 04:13 AM - aileron hinges (chrisoz)
3. 05:50 AM - Re: new engine (Trevor Page)
4. 06:15 AM - Acceptable Oil temps (charles.long@gm.com)
5. 06:16 AM - Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (roy vickski)
6. 06:22 AM - Re: Re: Matco axle assembly malfunction! (LRM)
7. 06:22 AM - Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru (Grant Corriveau)
8. 07:02 AM - Re: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (LRM)
9. 07:32 AM - Re: Rivet puller? (Hal Rozema)
10. 08:47 AM - Re: Acceptable Oil temps (Paul Moore)
11. 08:57 AM - please contact off-list C. Barcus (Jeff Small)
12. 09:16 AM - Re: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (bryanmmartin@comcast.net)
13. 09:49 AM - Re: Rivet puller? (Kent Brown)
14. 11:57 AM - Re: Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru (Andrew SanClemente)
15. 12:00 PM - Re: aileron hinges (Andrew SanClemente)
16. 12:00 PM - Matco (howado)
17. 12:05 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Andrew SanClemente)
18. 12:26 PM - Re: aileron hinges (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 12:36 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
20. 02:15 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Brandon Tucker)
21. 02:22 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Todd Osborne)
22. 03:17 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (kevinbonds@comcast.net)
23. 03:33 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
24. 04:11 PM - Re: Re: Rivet puller/ heads? (Monty Graves)
25. 05:23 PM - Re: aileron hinges (xl)
26. 06:23 PM - Re: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (LRM)
27. 08:45 PM - Paint prep tip (Jeff Paden)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 701 Landing grear axle |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford <sonar1@cox.net>
My axles were drop-shipped from Matco last April, and they are 3/4 inch,
with the welded collar......Fred Sanford.. Ca. .putting in firewall.
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "chrisoz" <chrisoz@bmail.com.au>
Subject: aileron hinges
Hello Andy,
I was wondering the same thing and put hinges on the ailerons of my third
Zodiac, a very customized XL.
Compared to my previous HDs it was a huge difference, you can actually move
and fly the plane with two fingers, no more wresteling with the controls.
Plus it is very convenient to be able to take the ailerons off for transport
of the wings, i.e. on a roof rack.
I can wholeheartedly recommend it!
Cheers,
Chris from downunder
> > I would like to hear some comments on how much changing to the
> > pinned-hinge design lightens the aileron feel.
> >
> > I would also like to know if anyone has experimented with aileron spades
> > for the same purpose. These would help balance the load both
> > mechanically and aerodynamically. I'm thinking I could adjust the spade
> > size, mass and location pretty easily to tune in the desired feel.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andy Elliott
> > Lycoming owner, Corvair 601XL wannabe!
>
Message 3
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page <webmaster@upac.ca>
Looks nice but if she revs like a GSRX (the heads are pulled from a
Suzuki motorcycle) those of you used to Lycomings turning at 2500 WOT
will be in for a shocker. GSXRs redline at about 13,000.... ;)
Trev
601HD 97% complete
do not archive
On Oct 11, 2004, at 8:36 AM, ron wehba wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" <rwehba@cox.net>
>
> new small V-8
> http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/news_folder/v8/index.php
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Acceptable Oil temps |
20, 2004) at 10/12/2004 09:11:44 AM,
Serialize complete at 10/12/2004 09:11:44 AM
--> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com
High oil temps use up the oil anti-oxidents. As you get above 220
F, this begins to become an issue and the anti-oxidents get used up
exponentially faster as temperatures go up. I work in the commerical
industry on transmissions and we use 250 F as a Maxcontinuous limit for
Dexron. I believe the automotive guys use 270 F. Occasional excursions
above that are OK if they are of short duration and less than 300 F. What
happens when the anti - oxidents are used up? Oil turns to sludge and the
acid number goes way up. Overall lubrication properties go in the
dumpster. Engine oil is formulated a little differently so someone else
may have something to add on that. With aircraft engines, we tend to
change the oil much more often, so probably never get to the "used up"
stage. If you are running at or above 250 F on a continuous basis,
suggest mods for better cooling or changing oil more often just to be
safe.
Chuck Long, P.E.
N601LE
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re:Matco Axle Malfunction |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski <rvickski@yahoo.com>
Respectfully,
As a 701 plans builder I was not at all satisfied with
the percieved stoutness of the axle layout while
studying my plans. As a result, I decided to install
the 1 1/2 standard aircraft axles in my gear. I bored
the gear for the axle, flanged the the axleshaft and
through bolted the assembly with an4 bolts. The shaft
is a press fit into the bore, and along with the
through bolts, make for a comparatively superior
(IMHO) installation. To me this was a weak link in the
stated mission of the zenith sky jeep.
Now the pontificating.
As an experimental aircraft fabricator I must take
responsibility not only for my abilities, skill and
judgement or lack thereof, but the abilities, skill
and judgement and lack thereof, of others, and make
decisions accordingly, ultimatly it is my life hanging
from 4 strut bolts.
I am glad Michael is still alive.
Roy Szarafinski
701sp plans
fuse on gear, ect.
do not archive
_______________________________
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Matco axle assembly malfunction! |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
Paul, thanks, what you suggested is actually what I had already decided to
do. I was worried about weakening the metal by additional welding. Thanks,
Larry N1345
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Matco axle assembly malfunction!
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
>
> Larry, a couple of things I'd do before you try welding in a solid rod.
>
> 1. Replace your current assemblies with better ones. The current 3/4"
> design is an option, as long as it fixes the quality problem at the same
> time. Maybe the Grove model, or at least something that will be
technically
> better than what you have. These, at the very least, have a "history" of
> problems (at least one failure and at least one additional bad weld
> identified).
>
> 2. Your rod idea isn't that bad, but I think I would not weld on the
current
> axle setup for two reasons:
> a. Additional welding will tend to recrystalize the metal and
> further decrease it's strength and ability to survive without failing.
> b. It isn't necessary in order to get the same strength
enhancement
> you are seeking.
>
> Instead, if this is your preferred fix, drill the back plate as you
> described, but use a grade 8 bolt instead of the solid rod. You can put a
> supporting washer under the head on the gear leg side, pick the right
length
> to add a nut on the outside, and it too would server to not only
strengthen
> your current axle, but serve as an adequate backup in case of failure.
Just
> remember to add a rigorous inspection to your checklist to verify the
> assembly isn't cracking and failing over time.
>
> Paul - speaking from a career of engineering experience.
>
>
> Time: 06:30:05 PM PST US
> From: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Matco axle assembly malfunction!
>
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
>
> I know for a fact mine are 5/8". I had aluminum inserts machined to go in
> the outer end in order to mount wheel pants. This is scary that Zenith
would
> take a short cut that could cause death or injury not to mention loss of
> investment. The more I think about it the more I am determined to fix
mine.
> I believe I will do as I mentioned earlier. Which was if some of you
didn't
> read my previous post, was to drill out the backing plate and weld in a
sold
> steel rod. I am considering making the internal rod long enough to go
thru
> (I like spelling it that way) the landing gear and thread the end to put a
> nut on. It's either that or buy new axles, wheels and brakes. If any one
has
> any thoughts, please feel free to tell me. I do know I'm not going to fly
it
> with stock 5/8" axles. I didn't like it when Roger told me and I sure
don't
> like it now. Larry N1345L
>
>
---
Message 7
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| Subject: | Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> During a familiarization flight at Flypass a couple of years ago I was
> told the same thing about sliding my feet back and just have my toes on
> the pedal. What I did was lengthen my pedals by 1 1/2 inch so that the
> ball of my foot is on the hinge point. The next year at the builder
> dinner at Oshkosh I saw Chris Heintz, I put my foot next to his and told
> him that was the problem. He was a little confused by my remark until I
> told him that his size 8 or 9? used a lot smaller pedal than my size 12's.
>
> Tim Shankland
I changed my brake pedals from the original design where the Matco cylinders
are supported on the pedal itself, to the design where the cylinder bases
are attached on the floor behind the pedal. This makes the braking geometry
much better! (in case this is part of the issue)
Grant
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re:Matco Axle Malfunction |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do
to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making
bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners
on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "roy vickski" <rvickski@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski <rvickski@yahoo.com>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> As a 701 plans builder I was not at all satisfied with
> the percieved stoutness of the axle layout while
> studying my plans. As a result, I decided to install
> the 1 1/2 standard aircraft axles in my gear. I bored
> the gear for the axle, flanged the the axleshaft and
> through bolted the assembly with an4 bolts. The shaft
> is a press fit into the bore, and along with the
> through bolts, make for a comparatively superior
> (IMHO) installation. To me this was a weak link in the
> stated mission of the zenith sky jeep.
>
> Now the pontificating.
> As an experimental aircraft fabricator I must take
> responsibility not only for my abilities, skill and
> judgement or lack thereof, but the abilities, skill
> and judgement and lack thereof, of others, and make
> decisions accordingly, ultimatly it is my life hanging
> from 4 strut bolts.
> I am glad Michael is still alive.
>
> Roy Szarafinski
> 701sp plans
> fuse on gear, ect.
> do not archive
>
>
> _______________________________
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
---
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet puller? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Dirk Slabbert wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net>
>
>'Evenin list,
>So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of
makes one change your mind?!
>Which is the best tool for this job?
>Thanks,
>Dirk.
>701 SP
>
>
>
>
I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used
it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
.......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a
dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
of the 6000.
Hal Rozema
ThePlaneFolks.Net
Message 10
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| Subject: | RE: Acceptable Oil temps |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" <pmoore505@msn.com>
At engine tech sessions at Sun-N-Fun this year, a Shell oil engineer advised
that a minimum temp of 185 F was necessary to 'cook' out the moisture that
collects in the engine innards due to condensation. Less than that and you
decrease the life of the engine, and the effectiveness and life of the oil
because the water is never evaporated.
He also stated that sustained temps over 220 F should be avoided, because of
the reasons Chuck shared below, as well as varnish formation, carbonization,
and other heat related baddies.
Another bit of information he passed on was that the formulation of aviation
oils and the use of auto gas was a problem area. The additives in aviation
oil are not necessarily compatible with the additives in car gas and that
the by-products created by burning the car gas would break down the aviation
oil before the recommended 25 hour oil change intervals. He didn't go so
far as to recommend using auto oils in airplane engines burning auto gas
(did I mention he worked for AeroShell?!), but I doubt there is much risk in
doing that considering the high performance, high heat, high rpm engines in
cars these days - the oil they use is likely durable enough to withstand
aircraft engine stresses (primarily talking about Lyc's and Conty's - not
necessarily auto engine conversions).
Anyone out there running an A-65, 0-200 or 0-235 on auto gas? What oil are
you using and do you have anything to share?
Paul
Do Not Archive
--> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com
High oil temps use up the oil anti-oxidents. As you get above 220
F, this begins to become an issue and the anti-oxidents get used up
exponentially faster as temperatures go up. I work in the commerical
industry on transmissions and we use 250 F as a Maxcontinuous limit for
Dexron. I believe the automotive guys use 270 F. Occasional excursions
above that are OK if they are of short duration and less than 300 F. What
happens when the anti - oxidents are used up? Oil turns to sludge and the
acid number goes way up. Overall lubrication properties go in the
dumpster. Engine oil is formulated a little differently so someone else
may have something to add on that. With aircraft engines, we tend to
change the oil much more often, so probably never get to the "used up"
stage. If you are running at or above 250 F on a continuous basis,
suggest mods for better cooling or changing oil more often just to be
safe.
Chuck Long, P.E.
N601LE
Message 11
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| Subject: | please contact off-list C. Barcus |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" <zodiacjeff@msn.com>
Would Clyde Barcus please contact me off-list. The info you requested keeps getting
bounced.
thanks jeff zodiacjeff@msn.com
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re:Matco Axle Malfunction |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has a design
requirement and looks for a product that a supplier claims will meet the
requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came directly from
Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically handled them at all
and I doubt they made any profit on these particular parts. Zenith has little
control over the quality of parts they do not manufacture and they have no control
at all if they are not aware of quality problems in the first place.
If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you contact Zenith
and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that supplier in the
future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the usual supplier that
Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain parts, you can contact
Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and then buy your parts from
a different supplier. It has been my experience that Zenith is very flexible about
what parts of the kit you want them to send you. You can even scratch build
some parts, order some parts from Zenith and buy some other parts from another
supplier. They will simply deduct the cost of any parts you don't want them
to supply.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM"
>
> Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do
> to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making
> bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners
> on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry
As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has a design
requirement and looks for a product thata supplier claims will meet the requirement.
In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came directly from
Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically handled them at all
and I doubt they made any profit on these particular parts.Zenith has little control
over the quality of parts they do not manufacture and they have no control
at all if they are not aware of quality problems in the first place.
If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you contact Zenith
and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that supplier in the
future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the usual supplier that
Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain parts, you can contact
Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and then buy your parts from
a different supplier. It has been my experience that Zenith is very flexible about
what parts of the kit you want them to send you. You can even scratch build
some parts, order some parts from Zenith and buy some other parts from another
supplier. They will simply deduct the cost of any parts you don't want them
to supply.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
In phase I testing.
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <LRM@ISP.COM>
Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do
to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making
bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners
on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" <kentbrown@verizon.net>
I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the pressure to
about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure depends on the
size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc.
Kent
I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used
it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
.......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a
dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
of the 6000.
Hal Rozema
ThePlaneFolks.Net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
Lance,
you should be able to simply move the pedals closer to the seats to
allow you to reach (unless the XL is very different in this area from
the HDS) - just check with the factory on how much is OK.
Anyone who hasn't yet installed their pedals may want to consider
modifying them to handle a larger foot. Its something you don't think
about until you try and use them - and then its a REAL pain if you
want to pull them out. I wish I had made some mods when I had the
chance, oh well, live and learn.
- Andy
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:16:59 -0700, Lance Gingell wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" <lgingell@matrix-
>logic.com>
>
>You think you have troubles.... I wear a size 6, so I can't find
>shoes
>anywhere, let alone reach the pedals at all!!! ;-)
>
>Its going to be fun when I get to the pedal building part (I'm about
>to
>start my 601XL fuselage), since I'll have to modify the pedals for
my
>short legs.
>
>...just thought I'd share the other end of the problem!
>
>...lance
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leo J.
>Corbalis
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru
>
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis"
>--> <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
>You think you have troubles ? I wear size 15 ! It isn't often I have
>it
>tougher than thou.
>Best
>Leo Corbalis
>do not archive
>
>
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: aileron hinges |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
Chris,
do you have a part number for the piano hinge you used out of say
ACS or Wicks (or a spec for what you used)?
I am seriously considering it since my elevator and rudder forces are
very light but even small aileron deflections require too much effort
(on the ground at least).
To remove them for transport do you pull the pin out of the hinge?
Thanks!
Andy
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:02:25 +0800, chrisoz wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "chrisoz" <chrisoz@bmail.com.au>
>
>
>Subject: aileron hinges
>
>
>Hello Andy,
>
>I was wondering the same thing and put hinges on the ailerons of my
>third
>Zodiac, a very customized XL.
>Compared to my previous HDs it was a huge difference, you can
>actually move
>and fly the plane with two fingers, no more wresteling with the
>controls.
>Plus it is very convenient to be able to take the ailerons off for
>transport
>of the wings, i.e. on a roof rack.
>I can wholeheartedly recommend it!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Chris from downunder
>
>>>I would like to hear some comments on how much changing to the
>>>pinned-hinge design lightens the aileron feel.
>>>
>>>I would also like to know if anyone has experimented with aileron
>>>spades
>>>for the same purpose. These would help balance the load both
>>>mechanically and aerodynamically. I'm thinking I could adjust the
>>>spade
>>>size, mass and location pretty easily to tune in the desired
>>>feel.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Andy Elliott
>>>Lycoming owner, Corvair 601XL wannabe!
>>
>
>
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>
>
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: howado <howado@cwia.com>
The following message was sent to me by George Happ of New Matco. He
also stated that the axle design was changed after the asset transfer.
Builders who got their axle assemblies before the sale should inspect
and plan on replacing the older units as a precaution:
The earlier producer of MATCO mfg products sold the assets of their
business to New Matco Inc in November of 2000. New Matco Inc is the
current producer of MATCO mfg products.
George R. Happ
MATCO mfg
801-486-7574 801-486-7581 (F)
www.matcomfg.com
Howard Carter
CH701 20% built
Message 17
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
For what its worth, If I had a nickel every time I said "I can't
imagine pulling all these by hand.." I could by some nice avionics.
Many have done it all by hand without complaint, however I was very
happy to use the compressor and pneumatic puller - had no problems
with it. mtc
- Andy
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:49:03 -0700, Kent Brown wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown"
><kentbrown@verizon.net>
>
>I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the
>pressure to
>about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure
>depends on the
>size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc.
>
>Kent
>
>
>I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I
>used
>it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used
>it
>again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor
>run,
>........plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in
>a
>dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the
>balance
>of the 6000.
>
>Hal Rozema
>ThePlaneFolks.Net
>
>
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>
>
Message 18
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I have piano hinges but I understand that at flying spped the control
forces become quite light. If you are ready to fly don't mess with the
hinges...Fly it first and see.
Come Andrew its time to strap yourself in and GO!.....:)
The hinges are useful if ever you have to get the LE tanks out....pull
the pin, put the 2*4 behind the rear spar (I cut a slot with a skillsaw
to go over the hinge) and attatch the straps.
Beyond that tey have no use.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
SanClemente
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron hinges
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
--> <ansancle@townisp.com>
Chris,
do you have a part number for the piano hinge you used out of say
ACS or Wicks (or a spec for what you used)?
I am seriously considering it since my elevator and rudder forces are
very light but even small aileron deflections require too much effort
(on the ground at least).
To remove them for transport do you pull the pin out of the hinge?
Thanks!
Andy
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:02:25 +0800, chrisoz wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "chrisoz" <chrisoz@bmail.com.au>
>
>
>Subject: aileron hinges
>
>
>Hello Andy,
>
>I was wondering the same thing and put hinges on the ailerons of my
>third Zodiac, a very customized XL.
>Compared to my previous HDs it was a huge difference, you can
>actually move
>and fly the plane with two fingers, no more wresteling with the
>controls.
>Plus it is very convenient to be able to take the ailerons off for
>transport
>of the wings, i.e. on a roof rack.
>I can wholeheartedly recommend it!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Chris from downunder
>
>>>I would like to hear some comments on how much changing to the
>>>pinned-hinge design lightens the aileron feel.
>>>
>>>I would also like to know if anyone has experimented with aileron
>>>spades for the same purpose. These would help balance the load both
>>>mechanically and aerodynamically. I'm thinking I could adjust the
>>>spade
>>>size, mass and location pretty easily to tune in the desired
>>>feel.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Andy Elliott
>>>Lycoming owner, Corvair 601XL wannabe!
>>
>
>
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>
>
==
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Message 19
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Amen...But I'd have forearms like Arhnold!...:)
Bouncing riveter syndrome can be controlled either by air pressure or by
squeezing the trigger slowly and pulling back as the rivet bites....soon
you can do them at full speed using this method.
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
SanClemente
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet puller?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
--> <ansancle@townisp.com>
For what its worth, If I had a nickel every time I said "I can't
imagine pulling all these by hand.." I could by some nice avionics.
Many have done it all by hand without complaint, however I was very
happy to use the compressor and pneumatic puller - had no problems
with it. mtc
- Andy
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:49:03 -0700, Kent Brown wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown"
><kentbrown@verizon.net>
>
>I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the pressure
>to about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure
>depends on the
>size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc.
>
>Kent
>
>
>I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I
>used it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never
>used it
>again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor
>run,
>........plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in
>a
>dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the
>balance
>of the 6000.
>
>Hal Rozema
>ThePlaneFolks.Net
>
>
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Rivet puller? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Dirk,
Here is a link to the pneumatic rivet puller that
I use. On sale for $34.99.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=167
My dad has used the same one for over 15 years
without a hiccup - Incidentally, he originally bought
it for $10 as a damaged return, replaced a 5 cent
o-ring, and it has worked flawlessly since. Maybe
lucky, maybe not???
I have riveted both wings with mine, and can
rivet a full skin, top or bottom, in about 10 - 15
minutes. As Frank mentioned, if you work on your
technique, you can definitely do it at full pressure,
100 psi quickly.
As for modifying the rivet head, Brian mentioned
looking in the archives. Here is what I previously
wrote:
Remove the rivet head, and heat it up with a
cheapo plumber's propane torch to soften the temper.
Then, just use an appropriate sized drill bit for the
A4 and A5 size tips to dimple the head. Smooth out
with a dremel tool, or even emery cloth, and away you
go in about 15 minutes. If you look at the heads
supplied by ZAC, they certainly weren't CNC machined!
I hope this helps. There are differing opinions
on this list regarding what tools are necessary and
which are not. Hell, some of these salty dogs still
think that starters and alternators are high tech! :)
If it is pneumatic you seek, $35.00 is a cheap way to
make up your mind.
Respectfully,
Brandon Tucker
601 HDS tail, wings complete
fuselage kit shipped yesterday!
_______________________________
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet puller? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne <todd@toddtown.com>
I use about 40 PSI for A4 rivets. It takes about 1/2 second to pull one,
and I use just a little bit of back pressure (pull back on the gun)
about 1/4 second after I pull the trigger. No more smiley faces...
Todd Osborne
Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com
Web Site: www.toddtown.com
MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com
AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com
Kent Brown wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" <kentbrown@verizon.net>
>
> I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the pressure to
> about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure depends on the
> size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc.
>
> Kent
>
>
> I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used
> it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
> again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
> .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a
> dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
> of the 6000.
>
> Hal Rozema
> ThePlaneFolks.Net
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Rivet puller? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net
It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite oppinions/results
from things that should be so simple. I have had none of the problems described
for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to get more of a bounce out
of the hand riveter and have scratched the alluminum with the broken end of
the rivet post sticking out of the end of the hand riveter when it bounces. This
is especially confusing when you get conflicting oppinions on things like the
current hinged vs. hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own
I guess.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema
>
> Dirk Slabbert wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
> >
> >'Evenin list,
> >So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort
of
> makes one change your mind?!
> >Which is the best tool for this job?
> >Thanks,
> >Dirk.
> >701 SP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used
> it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
> again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
> .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a
> dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
> of the 6000.
>
> Hal Rozema
> ThePlaneFolks.Net
It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite oppinions/results
from things that should be so simple. I have had none of the problems described
for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to get more of a bounce out
of the hand riveter and have scratched the alluminum with the broken end of
the rivet post sticking out of the end of the hand riveter when it bounces. This
is especially confusing when you get conflicting oppinions on things like the
current hinged vs. hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own
I guess.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <HARTIST1@COX.NET>
Dirk Slabbert wrote:
-- Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" <DIRKSLABBERT@TELKOMSA.NET>
'Evenin list,
So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of
makes one change your mind?!
Which is the best tool for this job?
Thanks,
Dirk.
701 SP
I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used
it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
.......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it f
ires resulting in a
dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
of the 6000.
Hal Rozema
ThePlaneFolks.Net
Message 23
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Exactly...Just look at the arguments over the potential of fuel vapour
lock...But please (for everyone elses sake) don't get me going on that
one...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
kevinbonds@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet puller?
--> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net
It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite
oppinions/results from things that should be so simple. I have had none
of the problems described for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to
get more of a bounce out of the hand riveter and have scratched the
alluminum with the broken end of the rivet post sticking out of the end
of the hand riveter when it bounces. This is especially confusing when
you get conflicting oppinions on things like the current hinged vs.
hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own I guess.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema
>
> Dirk Slabbert wrote:
>
> >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
> >
> >'Evenin list,
> >So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of
clecos sort of
> makes one change your mind?!
> >Which is the best tool for this job?
> >Thanks,
> >Dirk.
> >701 SP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I
> used
> it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
> again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
> .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a
> dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
> of the 6000.
>
> Hal Rozema
> ThePlaneFolks.Net
It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite
oppinions/results from things that should be so simple. I have had none
of the problems described for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to
get more of a bounce out of the hand riveter and have scratched the
alluminum with the broken end of the rivet post sticking out of the end
of the hand riveter when it bounces. This is especially confusing when
you get conflicting oppinions on things like the current hinged vs.
hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own I guess.
Kevin Bonds
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <HARTIST1@COX.NET>
Dirk Slabbert wrote:
-- Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert"
<DIRKSLABBERT@TELKOMSA.NET>
'Evenin list,
So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos
sort of
makes one change your mind?!
Which is the best tool for this job?
Thanks,
Dirk.
701 SP
I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used
it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it
again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run,
.......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it f
ires resulting in a
dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance
of the 6000.
Hal Rozema
ThePlaneFolks.Net
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Rivet puller/ heads? |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves <mgraves@usmo.com>
Brandon's method of making the rivet heads is almost identical to the way
Zenith does it. At Hangar days, the Zenith worker was making the
modifications to the heads.
He heats them up to burn off the chrome. He explained this is an important
step. Then he takes an acorn/tear drop shaped 1/2-3/4 inch metal burr
tool (not a stone) chucked up in a bench metal lathe, turning slowly he
drills the dimple. He finishes it off by polishing the dimple with a red
scotch brite pad between the burr tool and the head while its spinning.
a drill press would work just as well.
And as Brandon said they sure aren't CNC machined.
BTW my Wal-Mart Stanely heads also fits my Harbour Freight air puller.
Monty
At 02:15 PM 10/12/04 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Remove the rivet head, and heat it up with a
>cheapo plumber's propane torch to soften the temper.
>Then, just use an appropriate sized drill bit for the
>A4 and A5 size tips to dimple the head. Smooth out
>with a dremel tool, or even emery cloth, and away you
>go in about 15 minutes. If you look at the heads
>supplied by ZAC, they certainly weren't CNC machined!
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Brandon Tucker
>601 HDS tail, wings complete
>fuselage kit shipped yesterday!
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: aileron hinges |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
I have the skin hinges.
It's fun when people comment on them - lots have.
And a bunch know that it's a Heintz trademark.
On the ground my ailerons did need more force than
I'd like to move them until I oiled the torque rod
bearing surfaces. Wow! Now the stick moves freely.
The DAR did comment on the effort needed to move the
stick side to side before I oiled it up.
I don't quite see how a piano hinge would make much
difference now.
I can do a standard turn with finger pressure.
But I have to pull the plane out of a anything
more than a standard turn. Seems like aerodynamics
more than the hinge.
Joe E
N633Z @ BFI
125 hours
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Andrew SanClemente wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
>
> Chris,
> do you have a part number for the piano hinge you used out of say
> ACS or Wicks (or a spec for what you used)?
> I am seriously considering it since my elevator and rudder forces are
> very light but even small aileron deflections require too much effort
> (on the ground at least).
> To remove them for transport do you pull the pin out of the hinge?
>
> Thanks!
> Andy
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re:Matco Axle Malfunction |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
Surely you understand that Zenith makes a profit on every little part
whether it is dropped shipped or not. It's called a commission. This just
business, nothing wrong with it. My point on the axles is not the
manufacturer, it is Zenith under specifying the axles. If I knew then what
I know now, I would have out sourced the wheel assemblies. I'm not going to
take everything apart and return it, plus Zenith get a 15% restocking fee.
I couldn't scratch build one if my life depended on it, I don't have the
equipment or skills.
Don't get me wrong about Zenith, I'm not bashing them. I understand they
have to make a living for a whole bunch of people. I actually admire them,
I wish I had thought of it. But, my friend there is nothing, absolutely
nothing that can not be improved on.
Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net
>
> As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has
a design requirement and looks for a product that a supplier claims will
meet the requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came
directly from Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically
handled them at all and I doubt they made any profit on these particular
parts. Zenith has little control over the quality of parts they do not
manufacture and they have no control at all if they are not aware of quality
problems in the first place.
>
> If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you
contact Zenith and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that
supplier in the future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the
usual supplier that Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain
parts, you can contact Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and
then buy your parts from a different supplier. It has been my experience
that Zenith is very flexible about what parts of the kit you want them to
send you. You can even scratch build some parts, order some parts from
Zenith and buy some other parts from another supplier. They will simply
deduct the cost of any parts you don't want them to supply.
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> In phase I testing.
> do not archive
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM"
> >
> > Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should
do
> > to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand
making
> > bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting
corners
> > on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry
>
>
> As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has
a design requirement and looks for a product thata supplier claims will meet
the requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came
directly from Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically
handled them at all and I doubt they made any profit on these particular
parts.Zenith has little control over the quality of parts they do not
manufacture and they have no control at all if they are not aware of quality
problems in the first place.
>
> If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you
contact Zenith and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that
supplier in the future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the
usual supplier that Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain
parts, you can contact Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and
then buy your parts from a different supplier. It has been my experience
that Zenith is very flexible about what parts of the kit you want them to
send you. You can even scratch build some parts, order some parts from
Zenith and buy some other parts from another supplier. They will simply dedu
ct the cost of any parts you don't want them to supply.
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
> In phase I testing.
> do not archive
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> -- Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <LRM@ISP.COM>
>
> Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should
do
> to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand
making
> bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting
corners
> on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry
>
>
---
Message 27
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Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com
does not designate any permitted senders)
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" <jeffpaden@madbbs.com>
I just finished getting my aircraft ready to paint and picked up a little
time saver that I think the rest of you may want to try.
To make sure the primer has a good surface to grab hold of we cut the red
scotchbrite pads in half and stuck them to the bottom of our DA sanders.
This made quick easy work out of prepping the entire aircraft. Then we
wiped the entire aircraft with a surface cleaner like prepsol. The primer
looks VERY nice and we are now ready to begin our paint job!
Jeff Paden
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