---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/12/04: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:17 AM - Re: 701 Landing grear axle (Fred Sanford) 2. 04:13 AM - aileron hinges (chrisoz) 3. 05:50 AM - Re: new engine (Trevor Page) 4. 06:15 AM - Acceptable Oil temps (charles.long@gm.com) 5. 06:16 AM - Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (roy vickski) 6. 06:22 AM - Re: Re: Matco axle assembly malfunction! (LRM) 7. 06:22 AM - Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru (Grant Corriveau) 8. 07:02 AM - Re: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (LRM) 9. 07:32 AM - Re: Rivet puller? (Hal Rozema) 10. 08:47 AM - Re: Acceptable Oil temps (Paul Moore) 11. 08:57 AM - please contact off-list C. Barcus (Jeff Small) 12. 09:16 AM - Re: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (bryanmmartin@comcast.net) 13. 09:49 AM - Re: Rivet puller? (Kent Brown) 14. 11:57 AM - Re: Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru (Andrew SanClemente) 15. 12:00 PM - Re: aileron hinges (Andrew SanClemente) 16. 12:00 PM - Matco (howado) 17. 12:05 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Andrew SanClemente) 18. 12:26 PM - Re: aileron hinges (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 19. 12:36 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 02:15 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Brandon Tucker) 21. 02:22 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Todd Osborne) 22. 03:17 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (kevinbonds@comcast.net) 23. 03:33 PM - Re: Rivet puller? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 24. 04:11 PM - Re: Re: Rivet puller/ heads? (Monty Graves) 25. 05:23 PM - Re: aileron hinges (xl) 26. 06:23 PM - Re: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction (LRM) 27. 08:45 PM - Paint prep tip (Jeff Paden) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:53 AM PST US From: Fred Sanford Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 701 Landing grear axle --> Zenith-List message posted by: Fred Sanford My axles were drop-shipped from Matco last April, and they are 3/4 inch, with the welded collar......Fred Sanford.. Ca. .putting in firewall. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:59 AM PST US From: "chrisoz" Subject: Zenith-List: aileron hinges --> Zenith-List message posted by: "chrisoz" Subject: aileron hinges Hello Andy, I was wondering the same thing and put hinges on the ailerons of my third Zodiac, a very customized XL. Compared to my previous HDs it was a huge difference, you can actually move and fly the plane with two fingers, no more wresteling with the controls. Plus it is very convenient to be able to take the ailerons off for transport of the wings, i.e. on a roof rack. I can wholeheartedly recommend it! Cheers, Chris from downunder > > I would like to hear some comments on how much changing to the > > pinned-hinge design lightens the aileron feel. > > > > I would also like to know if anyone has experimented with aileron spades > > for the same purpose. These would help balance the load both > > mechanically and aerodynamically. I'm thinking I could adjust the spade > > size, mass and location pretty easily to tune in the desired feel. > > > > Thanks, > > Andy Elliott > > Lycoming owner, Corvair 601XL wannabe! > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:55 AM PST US From: Trevor Page Subject: Re: Zenith-List: new engine --> Zenith-List message posted by: Trevor Page Looks nice but if she revs like a GSRX (the heads are pulled from a Suzuki motorcycle) those of you used to Lycomings turning at 2500 WOT will be in for a shocker. GSXRs redline at about 13,000.... ;) Trev 601HD 97% complete do not archive On Oct 11, 2004, at 8:36 AM, ron wehba wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ron wehba" > > new small V-8 > http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/news_folder/v8/index.php > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Acceptable Oil temps From: charles.long@gm.com 20, 2004) at 10/12/2004 09:11:44 AM, Serialize complete at 10/12/2004 09:11:44 AM --> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com High oil temps use up the oil anti-oxidents. As you get above 220 F, this begins to become an issue and the anti-oxidents get used up exponentially faster as temperatures go up. I work in the commerical industry on transmissions and we use 250 F as a Maxcontinuous limit for Dexron. I believe the automotive guys use 270 F. Occasional excursions above that are OK if they are of short duration and less than 300 F. What happens when the anti - oxidents are used up? Oil turns to sludge and the acid number goes way up. Overall lubrication properties go in the dumpster. Engine oil is formulated a little differently so someone else may have something to add on that. With aircraft engines, we tend to change the oil much more often, so probably never get to the "used up" stage. If you are running at or above 250 F on a continuous basis, suggest mods for better cooling or changing oil more often just to be safe. Chuck Long, P.E. N601LE ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:06 AM PST US From: roy vickski Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski Respectfully, As a 701 plans builder I was not at all satisfied with the percieved stoutness of the axle layout while studying my plans. As a result, I decided to install the 1 1/2 standard aircraft axles in my gear. I bored the gear for the axle, flanged the the axleshaft and through bolted the assembly with an4 bolts. The shaft is a press fit into the bore, and along with the through bolts, make for a comparatively superior (IMHO) installation. To me this was a weak link in the stated mission of the zenith sky jeep. Now the pontificating. As an experimental aircraft fabricator I must take responsibility not only for my abilities, skill and judgement or lack thereof, but the abilities, skill and judgement and lack thereof, of others, and make decisions accordingly, ultimatly it is my life hanging from 4 strut bolts. I am glad Michael is still alive. Roy Szarafinski 701sp plans fuse on gear, ect. do not archive _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:39 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Matco axle assembly malfunction! --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" Paul, thanks, what you suggested is actually what I had already decided to do. I was worried about weakening the metal by additional welding. Thanks, Larry N1345 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Moore" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Matco axle assembly malfunction! > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" > > Larry, a couple of things I'd do before you try welding in a solid rod. > > 1. Replace your current assemblies with better ones. The current 3/4" > design is an option, as long as it fixes the quality problem at the same > time. Maybe the Grove model, or at least something that will be technically > better than what you have. These, at the very least, have a "history" of > problems (at least one failure and at least one additional bad weld > identified). > > 2. Your rod idea isn't that bad, but I think I would not weld on the current > axle setup for two reasons: > a. Additional welding will tend to recrystalize the metal and > further decrease it's strength and ability to survive without failing. > b. It isn't necessary in order to get the same strength enhancement > you are seeking. > > Instead, if this is your preferred fix, drill the back plate as you > described, but use a grade 8 bolt instead of the solid rod. You can put a > supporting washer under the head on the gear leg side, pick the right length > to add a nut on the outside, and it too would server to not only strengthen > your current axle, but serve as an adequate backup in case of failure. Just > remember to add a rigorous inspection to your checklist to verify the > assembly isn't cracking and failing over time. > > Paul - speaking from a career of engineering experience. > > > Time: 06:30:05 PM PST US > From: "LRM" > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Matco axle assembly malfunction! > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" > > I know for a fact mine are 5/8". I had aluminum inserts machined to go in > the outer end in order to mount wheel pants. This is scary that Zenith would > take a short cut that could cause death or injury not to mention loss of > investment. The more I think about it the more I am determined to fix mine. > I believe I will do as I mentioned earlier. Which was if some of you didn't > read my previous post, was to drill out the backing plate and weld in a sold > steel rod. I am considering making the internal rod long enough to go thru > (I like spelling it that way) the landing gear and thread the end to put a > nut on. It's either that or buy new axles, wheels and brakes. If any one has > any thoughts, please feel free to tell me. I do know I'm not going to fly it > with stock 5/8" axles. I didn't like it when Roger told me and I sure don't > like it now. Larry N1345L > > --- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru From: Grant Corriveau --> Zenith-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau > During a familiarization flight at Flypass a couple of years ago I was > told the same thing about sliding my feet back and just have my toes on > the pedal. What I did was lengthen my pedals by 1 1/2 inch so that the > ball of my foot is on the hinge point. The next year at the builder > dinner at Oshkosh I saw Chris Heintz, I put my foot next to his and told > him that was the problem. He was a little confused by my remark until I > told him that his size 8 or 9? used a lot smaller pedal than my size 12's. > > Tim Shankland I changed my brake pedals from the original design where the Matco cylinders are supported on the pedal itself, to the design where the cylinder bases are attached on the floor behind the pedal. This makes the braking geometry much better! (in case this is part of the issue) Grant ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:29 AM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "roy vickski" Subject: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction > --> Zenith-List message posted by: roy vickski > > Respectfully, > > As a 701 plans builder I was not at all satisfied with > the percieved stoutness of the axle layout while > studying my plans. As a result, I decided to install > the 1 1/2 standard aircraft axles in my gear. I bored > the gear for the axle, flanged the the axleshaft and > through bolted the assembly with an4 bolts. The shaft > is a press fit into the bore, and along with the > through bolts, make for a comparatively superior > (IMHO) installation. To me this was a weak link in the > stated mission of the zenith sky jeep. > > Now the pontificating. > As an experimental aircraft fabricator I must take > responsibility not only for my abilities, skill and > judgement or lack thereof, but the abilities, skill > and judgement and lack thereof, of others, and make > decisions accordingly, ultimatly it is my life hanging > from 4 strut bolts. > I am glad Michael is still alive. > > Roy Szarafinski > 701sp plans > fuse on gear, ect. > do not archive > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:45 AM PST US From: Hal Rozema Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema Dirk Slabbert wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" > >'Evenin list, >So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of makes one change your mind?! >Which is the best tool for this job? >Thanks, >Dirk. >701 SP > > > > I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance of the 6000. Hal Rozema ThePlaneFolks.Net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:46 AM PST US From: "Paul Moore" Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Acceptable Oil temps --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Paul Moore" At engine tech sessions at Sun-N-Fun this year, a Shell oil engineer advised that a minimum temp of 185 F was necessary to 'cook' out the moisture that collects in the engine innards due to condensation. Less than that and you decrease the life of the engine, and the effectiveness and life of the oil because the water is never evaporated. He also stated that sustained temps over 220 F should be avoided, because of the reasons Chuck shared below, as well as varnish formation, carbonization, and other heat related baddies. Another bit of information he passed on was that the formulation of aviation oils and the use of auto gas was a problem area. The additives in aviation oil are not necessarily compatible with the additives in car gas and that the by-products created by burning the car gas would break down the aviation oil before the recommended 25 hour oil change intervals. He didn't go so far as to recommend using auto oils in airplane engines burning auto gas (did I mention he worked for AeroShell?!), but I doubt there is much risk in doing that considering the high performance, high heat, high rpm engines in cars these days - the oil they use is likely durable enough to withstand aircraft engine stresses (primarily talking about Lyc's and Conty's - not necessarily auto engine conversions). Anyone out there running an A-65, 0-200 or 0-235 on auto gas? What oil are you using and do you have anything to share? Paul Do Not Archive --> Zenith-List message posted by: charles.long@gm.com High oil temps use up the oil anti-oxidents. As you get above 220 F, this begins to become an issue and the anti-oxidents get used up exponentially faster as temperatures go up. I work in the commerical industry on transmissions and we use 250 F as a Maxcontinuous limit for Dexron. I believe the automotive guys use 270 F. Occasional excursions above that are OK if they are of short duration and less than 300 F. What happens when the anti - oxidents are used up? Oil turns to sludge and the acid number goes way up. Overall lubrication properties go in the dumpster. Engine oil is formulated a little differently so someone else may have something to add on that. With aircraft engines, we tend to change the oil much more often, so probably never get to the "used up" stage. If you are running at or above 250 F on a continuous basis, suggest mods for better cooling or changing oil more often just to be safe. Chuck Long, P.E. N601LE ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:09 AM PST US From: "Jeff Small" Subject: Zenith-List: please contact off-list C. Barcus --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Small" Would Clyde Barcus please contact me off-list. The info you requested keeps getting bounced. thanks jeff zodiacjeff@msn.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:51 AM PST US From: bryanmmartin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has a design requirement and looks for a product that a supplier claims will meet the requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came directly from Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically handled them at all and I doubt they made any profit on these particular parts. Zenith has little control over the quality of parts they do not manufacture and they have no control at all if they are not aware of quality problems in the first place. If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you contact Zenith and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that supplier in the future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the usual supplier that Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain parts, you can contact Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and then buy your parts from a different supplier. It has been my experience that Zenith is very flexible about what parts of the kit you want them to send you. You can even scratch build some parts, order some parts from Zenith and buy some other parts from another supplier. They will simply deduct the cost of any parts you don't want them to supply. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" > > Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do > to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making > bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners > on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has a design requirement and looks for a product thata supplier claims will meet the requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came directly from Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically handled them at all and I doubt they made any profit on these particular parts.Zenith has little control over the quality of parts they do not manufacture and they have no control at all if they are not aware of quality problems in the first place. If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you contact Zenith and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that supplier in the future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the usual supplier that Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain parts, you can contact Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and then buy your parts from a different supplier. It has been my experience that Zenith is very flexible about what parts of the kit you want them to send you. You can even scratch build some parts, order some parts from Zenith and buy some other parts from another supplier. They will simply deduct the cost of any parts you don't want them to supply. -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. In phase I testing. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:40 AM PST US From: "Kent Brown" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the pressure to about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure depends on the size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc. Kent I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance of the 6000. Hal Rozema ThePlaneFolks.Net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:09 AM PST US From: Andrew SanClemente Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente Lance, you should be able to simply move the pedals closer to the seats to allow you to reach (unless the XL is very different in this area from the HDS) - just check with the factory on how much is OK. Anyone who hasn't yet installed their pedals may want to consider modifying them to handle a larger foot. Its something you don't think about until you try and use them - and then its a REAL pain if you want to pull them out. I wish I had made some mods when I had the chance, oh well, live and learn. - Andy On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 10:16:59 -0700, Lance Gingell wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Lance Gingell" logic.com> > >You think you have troubles.... I wear a size 6, so I can't find >shoes >anywhere, let alone reach the pedals at all!!! ;-) > >Its going to be fun when I get to the pedal building part (I'm about >to >start my 601XL fuselage), since I'll have to modify the pedals for my >short legs. > >...just thought I'd share the other end of the problem! > >...lance > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leo J. >Corbalis >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Taxi-Tests 601 HDS Stratus Subaru > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" >--> > >You think you have troubles ? I wear size 15 ! It isn't often I have >it >tougher than thou. >Best >Leo Corbalis >do not archive > > >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:52 PM PST US From: Andrew SanClemente Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron hinges --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente Chris, do you have a part number for the piano hinge you used out of say ACS or Wicks (or a spec for what you used)? I am seriously considering it since my elevator and rudder forces are very light but even small aileron deflections require too much effort (on the ground at least). To remove them for transport do you pull the pin out of the hinge? Thanks! Andy On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:02:25 +0800, chrisoz wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "chrisoz" > > >Subject: aileron hinges > > >Hello Andy, > >I was wondering the same thing and put hinges on the ailerons of my >third >Zodiac, a very customized XL. >Compared to my previous HDs it was a huge difference, you can >actually move >and fly the plane with two fingers, no more wresteling with the >controls. >Plus it is very convenient to be able to take the ailerons off for >transport >of the wings, i.e. on a roof rack. >I can wholeheartedly recommend it! > >Cheers, > >Chris from downunder > >>>I would like to hear some comments on how much changing to the >>>pinned-hinge design lightens the aileron feel. >>> >>>I would also like to know if anyone has experimented with aileron >>>spades >>>for the same purpose. These would help balance the load both >>>mechanically and aerodynamically. I'm thinking I could adjust the >>>spade >>>size, mass and location pretty easily to tune in the desired >>>feel. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Andy Elliott >>>Lycoming owner, Corvair 601XL wannabe! >> > > >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:52 PM PST US From: howado Subject: Zenith-List: Matco --> Zenith-List message posted by: howado The following message was sent to me by George Happ of New Matco. He also stated that the axle design was changed after the asset transfer. Builders who got their axle assemblies before the sale should inspect and plan on replacing the older units as a precaution: The earlier producer of MATCO mfg products sold the assets of their business to New Matco Inc in November of 2000. New Matco Inc is the current producer of MATCO mfg products. George R. Happ MATCO mfg 801-486-7574 801-486-7581 (F) www.matcomfg.com Howard Carter CH701 20% built ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:15 PM PST US From: Andrew SanClemente Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente For what its worth, If I had a nickel every time I said "I can't imagine pulling all these by hand.." I could by some nice avionics. Many have done it all by hand without complaint, however I was very happy to use the compressor and pneumatic puller - had no problems with it. mtc - Andy On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:49:03 -0700, Kent Brown wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" > > >I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the >pressure to >about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure >depends on the >size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc. > >Kent > > >I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I >used >it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used >it >again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor >run, >........plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in >a >dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the >balance >of the 6000. > >Hal Rozema >ThePlaneFolks.Net > > >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:35 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron hinges From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I have piano hinges but I understand that at flying spped the control forces become quite light. If you are ready to fly don't mess with the hinges...Fly it first and see. Come Andrew its time to strap yourself in and GO!.....:) The hinges are useful if ever you have to get the LE tanks out....pull the pin, put the 2*4 behind the rear spar (I cut a slot with a skillsaw to go over the hinge) and attatch the straps. Beyond that tey have no use. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew SanClemente Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron hinges --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente --> Chris, do you have a part number for the piano hinge you used out of say ACS or Wicks (or a spec for what you used)? I am seriously considering it since my elevator and rudder forces are very light but even small aileron deflections require too much effort (on the ground at least). To remove them for transport do you pull the pin out of the hinge? Thanks! Andy On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:02:25 +0800, chrisoz wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "chrisoz" > > >Subject: aileron hinges > > >Hello Andy, > >I was wondering the same thing and put hinges on the ailerons of my >third Zodiac, a very customized XL. >Compared to my previous HDs it was a huge difference, you can >actually move >and fly the plane with two fingers, no more wresteling with the >controls. >Plus it is very convenient to be able to take the ailerons off for >transport >of the wings, i.e. on a roof rack. >I can wholeheartedly recommend it! > >Cheers, > >Chris from downunder > >>>I would like to hear some comments on how much changing to the >>>pinned-hinge design lightens the aileron feel. >>> >>>I would also like to know if anyone has experimented with aileron >>>spades for the same purpose. These would help balance the load both >>>mechanically and aerodynamically. I'm thinking I could adjust the >>>spade >>>size, mass and location pretty easily to tune in the desired >>>feel. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Andy Elliott >>>Lycoming owner, Corvair 601XL wannabe! >> > > >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== > > == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Amen...But I'd have forearms like Arhnold!...:) Bouncing riveter syndrome can be controlled either by air pressure or by squeezing the trigger slowly and pulling back as the rivet bites....soon you can do them at full speed using this method. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew SanClemente Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente --> For what its worth, If I had a nickel every time I said "I can't imagine pulling all these by hand.." I could by some nice avionics. Many have done it all by hand without complaint, however I was very happy to use the compressor and pneumatic puller - had no problems with it. mtc - Andy On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:49:03 -0700, Kent Brown wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" > > >I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the pressure >to about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure >depends on the >size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc. > >Kent > > >I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I >used it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never >used it >again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor >run, >........plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in >a >dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the >balance >of the 6000. > >Hal Rozema >ThePlaneFolks.Net > > >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== >_- >===================================================================== >=== > > == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:51 PM PST US From: Brandon Tucker Subject: Zenith-List: RE: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker Dirk, Here is a link to the pneumatic rivet puller that I use. On sale for $34.99. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=167 My dad has used the same one for over 15 years without a hiccup - Incidentally, he originally bought it for $10 as a damaged return, replaced a 5 cent o-ring, and it has worked flawlessly since. Maybe lucky, maybe not??? I have riveted both wings with mine, and can rivet a full skin, top or bottom, in about 10 - 15 minutes. As Frank mentioned, if you work on your technique, you can definitely do it at full pressure, 100 psi quickly. As for modifying the rivet head, Brian mentioned looking in the archives. Here is what I previously wrote: Remove the rivet head, and heat it up with a cheapo plumber's propane torch to soften the temper. Then, just use an appropriate sized drill bit for the A4 and A5 size tips to dimple the head. Smooth out with a dremel tool, or even emery cloth, and away you go in about 15 minutes. If you look at the heads supplied by ZAC, they certainly weren't CNC machined! I hope this helps. There are differing opinions on this list regarding what tools are necessary and which are not. Hell, some of these salty dogs still think that starters and alternators are high tech! :) If it is pneumatic you seek, $35.00 is a cheap way to make up your mind. Respectfully, Brandon Tucker 601 HDS tail, wings complete fuselage kit shipped yesterday! _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:44 PM PST US From: Todd Osborne Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Todd Osborne I use about 40 PSI for A4 rivets. It takes about 1/2 second to pull one, and I use just a little bit of back pressure (pull back on the gun) about 1/4 second after I pull the trigger. No more smiley faces... Todd Osborne Internet E-Mail: todd@toddtown.com Web Site: www.toddtown.com MSN (Windows) Messenger: todd@toddtown.com AOL Instant Messenger: toddosborn@aol.com Kent Brown wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Kent Brown" > > I am using the Zenith puller, and find that if I regulate the pressure to > about 45lbs, the puller won't bounce too much. Best pressure depends on the > size of rivets, thickness of parts, etc. > > Kent > > > I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used > it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it > again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, > .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a > dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance > of the 6000. > > Hal Rozema > ThePlaneFolks.Net > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:46 PM PST US From: kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite oppinions/results from things that should be so simple. I have had none of the problems described for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to get more of a bounce out of the hand riveter and have scratched the alluminum with the broken end of the rivet post sticking out of the end of the hand riveter when it bounces. This is especially confusing when you get conflicting oppinions on things like the current hinged vs. hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own I guess. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema > > Dirk Slabbert wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" > > > >'Evenin list, > >So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of > makes one change your mind?! > >Which is the best tool for this job? > >Thanks, > >Dirk. > >701 SP > > > > > > > > > I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used > it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it > again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, > .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a > dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance > of the 6000. > > Hal Rozema > ThePlaneFolks.Net It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite oppinions/results from things that should be so simple. I have had none of the problems described for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to get more of a bounce out of the hand riveter and have scratched the alluminum with the broken end of the rivet post sticking out of the end of the hand riveter when it bounces. This is especially confusing when you get conflicting oppinions on things like the current hinged vs. hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own I guess. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema Dirk Slabbert wrote: -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" 'Evenin list, So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of makes one change your mind?! Which is the best tool for this job? Thanks, Dirk. 701 SP I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it f ires resulting in a dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance of the 6000. Hal Rozema ThePlaneFolks.Net ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Exactly...Just look at the arguments over the potential of fuel vapour lock...But please (for everyone elses sake) don't get me going on that one...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kevinbonds@comcast.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Rivet puller? --> Zenith-List message posted by: kevinbonds@comcast.net It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite oppinions/results from things that should be so simple. I have had none of the problems described for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to get more of a bounce out of the hand riveter and have scratched the alluminum with the broken end of the rivet post sticking out of the end of the hand riveter when it bounces. This is especially confusing when you get conflicting oppinions on things like the current hinged vs. hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own I guess. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema > > Dirk Slabbert wrote: > > >--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" > > > >'Evenin list, > >So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of > makes one change your mind?! > >Which is the best tool for this job? > >Thanks, > >Dirk. > >701 SP > > > > > > > > > I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I > used > it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it > again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, > .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it fires resulting in a > dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance > of the 6000. > > Hal Rozema > ThePlaneFolks.Net It puzzels me sometimes how two people can have completely opposite oppinions/results from things that should be so simple. I have had none of the problems described for the air riveter (HF or Zenith). I seem to get more of a bounce out of the hand riveter and have scratched the alluminum with the broken end of the rivet post sticking out of the end of the hand riveter when it bounces. This is especially confusing when you get conflicting oppinions on things like the current hinged vs. hingless aileron string going on now. ? To each his own I guess. Kevin Bonds -------------- Original message -------------- -- Zenith-List message posted by: Hal Rozema Dirk Slabbert wrote: -- Zenith-List message posted by: "Dirk Slabbert" 'Evenin list, So far I pulled all rivets by hand, but looking at fuse full of clecos sort of makes one change your mind?! Which is the best tool for this job? Thanks, Dirk. 701 SP I bought a nice air compressor and bought Zenith's rivet puller. I used it for one wing and tucked it all under the work bench. Never used it again. Dragging the hose around and listening to the compressor run, .......plus the riveter tends to bounce when it f ires resulting in a dimple or a half moon around the rivet head. I hand pulled the balance of the 6000. Hal Rozema ThePlaneFolks.Net == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:57 PM PST US From: Monty Graves Subject: Re: Zenith-List: RE: Rivet puller/ heads? --> Zenith-List message posted by: Monty Graves Brandon's method of making the rivet heads is almost identical to the way Zenith does it. At Hangar days, the Zenith worker was making the modifications to the heads. He heats them up to burn off the chrome. He explained this is an important step. Then he takes an acorn/tear drop shaped 1/2-3/4 inch metal burr tool (not a stone) chucked up in a bench metal lathe, turning slowly he drills the dimple. He finishes it off by polishing the dimple with a red scotch brite pad between the burr tool and the head while its spinning. a drill press would work just as well. And as Brandon said they sure aren't CNC machined. BTW my Wal-Mart Stanely heads also fits my Harbour Freight air puller. Monty At 02:15 PM 10/12/04 -0700, you wrote: >--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker > > > Remove the rivet head, and heat it up with a >cheapo plumber's propane torch to soften the temper. >Then, just use an appropriate sized drill bit for the >A4 and A5 size tips to dimple the head. Smooth out >with a dremel tool, or even emery cloth, and away you >go in about 15 minutes. If you look at the heads >supplied by ZAC, they certainly weren't CNC machined! > >Respectfully, > >Brandon Tucker >601 HDS tail, wings complete >fuselage kit shipped yesterday! > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:00 PM PST US From: xl Subject: Re: Zenith-List: aileron hinges --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl I have the skin hinges. It's fun when people comment on them - lots have. And a bunch know that it's a Heintz trademark. On the ground my ailerons did need more force than I'd like to move them until I oiled the torque rod bearing surfaces. Wow! Now the stick moves freely. The DAR did comment on the effort needed to move the stick side to side before I oiled it up. I don't quite see how a piano hinge would make much difference now. I can do a standard turn with finger pressure. But I have to pull the plane out of a anything more than a standard turn. Seems like aerodynamics more than the hinge. Joe E N633Z @ BFI 125 hours On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Andrew SanClemente wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente > > Chris, > do you have a part number for the piano hinge you used out of say > ACS or Wicks (or a spec for what you used)? > I am seriously considering it since my elevator and rudder forces are > very light but even small aileron deflections require too much effort > (on the ground at least). > To remove them for transport do you pull the pin out of the hinge? > > Thanks! > Andy > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:57 PM PST US From: "LRM" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" Surely you understand that Zenith makes a profit on every little part whether it is dropped shipped or not. It's called a commission. This just business, nothing wrong with it. My point on the axles is not the manufacturer, it is Zenith under specifying the axles. If I knew then what I know now, I would have out sourced the wheel assemblies. I'm not going to take everything apart and return it, plus Zenith get a 15% restocking fee. I couldn't scratch build one if my life depended on it, I don't have the equipment or skills. Don't get me wrong about Zenith, I'm not bashing them. I understand they have to make a living for a whole bunch of people. I actually admire them, I wish I had thought of it. But, my friend there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can not be improved on. Larry N1345L ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:Matco Axle Malfunction > --> Zenith-List message posted by: bryanmmartin@comcast.net > > As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has a design requirement and looks for a product that a supplier claims will meet the requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came directly from Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically handled them at all and I doubt they made any profit on these particular parts. Zenith has little control over the quality of parts they do not manufacture and they have no control at all if they are not aware of quality problems in the first place. > > If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you contact Zenith and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that supplier in the future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the usual supplier that Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain parts, you can contact Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and then buy your parts from a different supplier. It has been my experience that Zenith is very flexible about what parts of the kit you want them to send you. You can even scratch build some parts, order some parts from Zenith and buy some other parts from another supplier. They will simply deduct the cost of any parts you don't want them to supply. > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. > In phase I testing. > do not archive > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" > > > > Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do > > to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making > > bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners > > on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry > > > As I understand it, Zenith did not make these axles, Matco did. Zenith has a design requirement and looks for a product thata supplier claims will meet the requirement. In my case the supplier was Grove and the parts came directly from Grove aircraft by drop shipment. Zenith never physically handled them at all and I doubt they made any profit on these particular parts.Zenith has little control over the quality of parts they do not manufacture and they have no control at all if they are not aware of quality problems in the first place. > > If you have problems with a supplier that Zenith uses, I suggest you contact Zenith and complain. They may reconsider doing business with that supplier in the future. On the other hand, you are not obligated to use the usual supplier that Zenith uses. If you are not satisfied with certain parts, you can contact Zenith and see about returning them for a refund and then buy your parts from a different supplier. It has been my experience that Zenith is very flexible about what parts of the kit you want them to send you. You can even scratch build some parts, order some parts from Zenith and buy some other parts from another supplier. They will simply dedu ct the cost of any parts you don't want them to supply. > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru. > In phase I testing. > do not archive > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" > > Zenith seems to do everything on the "skinny". Which is what they should do > to make a profit, except when safety is concerned. I can understand making > bushing out of 1/4" 4130 vs buying ready made bushings, but cutting corners > on major parts like axles is wrong. My opinion, Larry > > --- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:59 PM PST US Received-SPF: none (MAIL-SERVER.madbbs.com: domain of jeffpaden@madbbs.com does not designate any permitted senders) From: "Jeff Paden" Subject: Zenith-List: Paint prep tip --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jeff Paden" I just finished getting my aircraft ready to paint and picked up a little time saver that I think the rest of you may want to try. To make sure the primer has a good surface to grab hold of we cut the red scotchbrite pads in half and stuck them to the bottom of our DA sanders. This made quick easy work out of prepping the entire aircraft. Then we wiped the entire aircraft with a surface cleaner like prepsol. The primer looks VERY nice and we are now ready to begin our paint job! Jeff Paden