Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:36 AM - Rotation Speeds - 601 HDS (Andrew SanClemente)
2. 07:49 AM - Fw: unacceptable registration. was:Re: aileron hinges (cgalley)
3. 01:14 PM - Re: Fw: unacceptable registration. was:Re: aileron hinges (Andrew SanClemente)
4. 02:25 PM - Newbie question (RW Kel)
5. 03:51 PM - Wanted: Work Table (The Keeners)
6. 03:57 PM - Re: Newbie question (Stephen R. Look)
7. 04:02 PM - Re: Newbie question (Crvsecretary@aol.com)
8. 05:02 PM - Re: Newbie question (Larry McFarland)
9. 06:06 PM - Re: Newbie question (Cdngoose)
10. 06:13 PM - Re: Newbie question (VideoFlyer@aol.com)
11. 06:59 PM - Re: Newbie question (LRM)
12. 08:13 PM - Rivet pliers thanks via CH701.com (Jon Croke)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rotation Speeds - 601 HDS |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
Sorry to ask this but I scoured the archives and couldn't find the
numbers Im looking for. Im sure others may find this useful down the
road as well.
In a 601 HDS (I have stratus) What are people using for :
- Rotation Speed on takeoff (and I noticed in the archives back
elevator is required or no liftoff regardless of speed)
- Downwind Leg
- Base Leg
- Final
- Touchdown
Please specify if your using MPH or KTS.
Im finalizing my flight test plan and want to have these numbers in
there.
Thanks!!!
Andy
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: aileron hinges |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
FYI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
Subject: RE: unacceptable registration. was:Re: Zenith-List: aileron hinges
Cy,
Nobody is throwing their weight around on this one. They're simply
following the guidance provided in FAA Order 8130.2, as they should.
(People always complain when the FAA doesn't follow policy. It's not right
to complain when they do!)
The builder name, model number, and serial number identifying a particular
aircraft must match on all documents, and on the aircraft's data plate. If
the model is listed in a certain way on one piece of the paperwork puzzle,
it should be listed identically on ALL pieces of the paperwork puzzle. This
is how it's taught in the Amateur-Built DAR training, and I'm sure it's
taught this way in all FAA training.
You are correct that a builder can call his particular aircraft anything he
wants. That's not the issue. The issue is, once the builder decides on a
model name, he should use the exact same model name on all paperwork
submitted to the FAA. If this is not done, it WILL delay the certification
process, as this instance illustrates.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: cgalley [mailto:cgalley@qcbc.org]
Subject: Fw: unacceptable registration. was:Re: Zenith-List: aileron
hinges
FYI about BS and someone throwing their weight around.
----- Original Message -----
From: "xl" <xl@prosody.org>
Subject: unacceptable registration. was:Re: Zenith-List: aileron hinges
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>
>
> Maybe BS but it's real. It happened to me too.
> I put CH601XL on the registration form
> but I put 601XL on one of the other forms in the pile because
> I wanted that form to match the bill of sale.
> (fewer forms and online action make sense to me....)
> The FAA put 601XL on the registration certificate - wrong.
> The DAR and FAA didn't like that. I was ready to fly Dec 15.
> It took until April to get the new registration. I flew Apr 9.
> My plane sat for almost 4 months collecting water in the fuel
> tanks before I could fly it - another story :)
> Bummer. BTW, the FAA in Oklahoma City agreed that I could call
> it anything that I wanted - except something like a Boeing 747.
> She asked why I wanted a new registration. I told her that I didn't....
> She told me to get a new inspector or go to a different FAA
> office. But once I was in the system I felt that I couldn't
> make a fuss without risk. I felt that I was at the mercy of
> the DAR and FAA. I didn't feel that I had the power to protest.
> Oh yeah, it would have taken me longer to get the new registration
> if I hadn't called Oklahoma City several times and begged.
>
> Joe E
> N633Z @ BFI
> 125 hours
>
> archive this - people need to know
>
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, cgalley wrote:
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
> > That is BS. You can call the airplane and model ANYTHING you want. You
are
> > the manufacturer. If you want to give some credit to the designer then
> > that's o.k. too. BUT to hold up your paperwork is wrong.
> > Cy Galley
> > EAA Safety Programs Editor
> > Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andrew SanClemente" <ansancle@townisp.com>
> > To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron hinges
> > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
> > <ansancle@townisp.com>
> > > Frank,
> > > Waiting for an updated registration to get my inspection. On my
> > > first iteration I put "Zenith 601HDS", forgot the "CH" and my DARs
> > > boss noticed and won't overlook it. Waiting for my modified
> > > registration from OK City and then it should take to the air!
> > > Paperwork - ARGGG!!!
> > >
> > > I will wait until its flying to make any change like that.
> > > -Andy
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: aileron hinges |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente <ansancle@townisp.com>
Cy,
What your saying is true, in my case however, ALL the paperwork was
identical. She didn't like the designation that was on the paperwork
- "Zenith 601HDS". She wants "Zenith CH 601HDS" instead.
Re-doing all of the paperwork takes 20 minutes, EXCEPT for the
registration. That has to go back through OK City which is a MAJOR
pain. I have my inspection scheduled for next Wed. and am hoping they
come through and fax my amended registration to me in time. Otherwise
she is holding up my inspection and first flight due the two letters
"CH" in the model name, a REAL drag.
Andy
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:50:36 -0500, cgalley wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
>FYI
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
>To: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>Subject: RE: unacceptable registration. was:Re: Zenith-List: aileron
>hinges
>
>
>Cy,
>
>Nobody is throwing their weight around on this one. They're simply
>following the guidance provided in FAA Order 8130.2, as they should.
>(People always complain when the FAA doesn't follow policy. It's
>not right
>to complain when they do!)
>
>The builder name, model number, and serial number identifying a
>particular
>aircraft must match on all documents, and on the aircraft's data
>plate. If
>the model is listed in a certain way on one piece of the paperwork
>puzzle,
>it should be listed identically on ALL pieces of the paperwork
>puzzle. This
>is how it's taught in the Amateur-Built DAR training, and I'm sure
>it's
>taught this way in all FAA training.
>
>You are correct that a builder can call his particular aircraft
>anything he
>wants. That's not the issue. The issue is, once the builder
>decides on a
>model name, he should use the exact same model name on all paperwork
>submitted to the FAA. If this is not done, it WILL delay the
>certification
>process, as this instance illustrates.
>
>Joe
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: cgalley [mailto:cgalley@qcbc.org]
>To: Joe Norris
>Subject: Fw: unacceptable registration. was:Re: Zenith-List: aileron
>hinges
>
>
>FYI about BS and someone throwing their weight around.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "xl" <xl@prosody.org>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: unacceptable registration. was:Re: Zenith-List: aileron
>hinges
>
>
>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: xl <xl@prosody.org>
>>
>>
>>Maybe BS but it's real. It happened to me too.
>>I put CH601XL on the registration form
>>but I put 601XL on one of the other forms in the pile because
>>I wanted that form to match the bill of sale.
>>(fewer forms and online action make sense to me....)
>>The FAA put 601XL on the registration certificate - wrong.
>>The DAR and FAA didn't like that. I was ready to fly Dec 15.
>>It took until April to get the new registration. I flew Apr 9.
>>My plane sat for almost 4 months collecting water in the fuel
>>tanks before I could fly it - another story :)
>>Bummer. BTW, the FAA in Oklahoma City agreed that I could call
>>it anything that I wanted - except something like a Boeing 747.
>>She asked why I wanted a new registration. I told her that I
>>didn't....
>>She told me to get a new inspector or go to a different FAA
>>office. But once I was in the system I felt that I couldn't
>>make a fuss without risk. I felt that I was at the mercy of
>>the DAR and FAA. I didn't feel that I had the power to protest.
>>Oh yeah, it would have taken me longer to get the new registration
>>if I hadn't called Oklahoma City several times and begged.
>>
>>Joe E
>>N633Z @ BFI
>>125 hours
>>
>>archive this - people need to know
>>
>>On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, cgalley wrote:
>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>>>That is BS. You can call the airplane and model ANYTHING you want.
>>>You
>are
>>>the manufacturer. If you want to give some credit to the designer
>>>then
>>>that's o.k. too. BUT to hold up your paperwork is wrong.
>>>Cy Galley
>>>EAA Safety Programs Editor
>>>Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Andrew SanClemente" <ansancle@townisp.com>
>>>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: aileron hinges
>>>>--> Zenith-List message posted by: Andrew SanClemente
>>><ansancle@townisp.com>
>>>>Frank,
>>>>Waiting for an updated registration to get my inspection. On
>>>>my
>>>>first iteration I put "Zenith 601HDS", forgot the "CH" and my
>>>>DARs
>>>>boss noticed and won't overlook it. Waiting for my modified
>>>>registration from OK City and then it should take to the air!
>>>>Paperwork - ARGGG!!!
>>>>
>>>>I will wait until its flying to make any change like that.
>>>>-Andy
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>_-
>=====================================================================
>===
>
>
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: RW Kel <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
I haven't started on a kit yet but I'm thinking about going to the January "rudder
building" class at the factory. I'd like to hear from folks why they went
with Zenair and what they would like to have known before they got started.
Thanks for helping a newbie out and please reply to the list if possible.
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Wanted: Work Table |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "The Keeners" <kim.forest@surewest.net>
Is there anyone out there in the Northern California/Sacramento area who is ready
to part with their 4x12 work table?
Thanks!
FKeener
Starter Kit Purchased....
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Stephen R. Look" <slook@mchsi.com>
I'll use this opportunity to say hello to the list. I've been lurking for
quite a while and used info here to make my decision to go with the 601XL.
My reasons are:
-I'm a student pilot and don't want something too hot to handle for a first
plane
-Sport Pilot compatible. I've got a special medical that could go south on
me someday.
-Doesn't require a bizillion dollars worth of special tools to build.
-Doesn't require a bizillion dollar engine, I'm going to use a Corvair engine.
-Short build time
-Can buy the kit in stages to spread the cost out as I go
-the pilot visibility is awesome.
- the interior is very roomy and comfortable and I'm 6'4"
My wife and I did the rudder workshop a few weeks ago and had a great time.
Found out it was something we could handle.
Met all the Zenith folks and they're great. Taking the test flight shows
how great the 601XL flies. I would highly recommend the rudder workshop.
Steve
At 04:25 PM 10/15/2004, you wrote:
>--> Zenith-List message posted by: RW Kel <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
>
>I haven't started on a kit yet but I'm thinking about going to the January
>"rudder building" class at the factory. I'd like to hear from folks why
>they went with Zenair and what they would like to have known before they
>got started.
>Thanks for helping a newbie out and please reply to the list if possible.
Steve Look
Monticello, IL
"Dogs have owners, Cats have staff"
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Crvsecretary@aol.com
I have only one word to say about the Rudder Workshop at the Zenith factory:
GO !!
Don't think about it - do it. This will be the best 10 hours you will
invest in your decision to build a Zenith. And, there is a good chance you will
not be in as large a gethering of Zenith enthusiasts for quite a LONG time !
I am an experienced mechanical/electrical technician and teach others how to
diagnose and troubleshoot problems. That being said, I had ZERO sheet metal
skills ! Ten hours at the factory was all I needed to have the confidence
to go forward and DO IT ! As good as the builders assembly manual is, it does
NOT show all there is to know. You will pick up good practices at the
factory and will find yourself NOT re-inventing the wheel at your home shop.
You will also get very spoiled very fast using a pneumatic rivet gun, and
you can laugh at all the RV builders with bad hearing from bucking all those
rivets - LOL !!!!. I bought one there and I cannot imagine being without it.
I'm building the horizontal stabilizer and can proudly say the mistakes have
been few because I went to the Rudder Workshop.
By the way..there is no local internet access in Mexico, MO, so you will be
out of touch with email unless you want to pay dearly - LOL !
Tracy Smith
Naugatuck, CT
601XL Builder - 5% done and riveting furiously!
--> Zenith-List message posted by: RW Kel <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
I haven't started on a kit yet but I'm thinking about going to the January
"rudder building" class at the factory. I'd like to hear from folks why they
went with Zenair and what they would like to have known before they got
started.
Thanks for helping a newbie out and please reply to the list if possible.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
R W,
The reason I went with the Zenith design was the fact that I could make my
own parts,
from plans. It was nice to know that there was no part that I couldn't buy,
if it were too difficult
or labor intensive to make. The bubble canopy for example, is one piece you
work on, but few people
make from raw sheet. The plans were easily understood, readable and much
improved in the 4th edition.
The Zenith series are light aircraft that come in at 60% the empty weight of
a Cessna, but perform better
and more economically than "Type Certified planes" when done properly.
Some grouse a bit on the Zeniths being slower than they'd like, but with a
proper engine,
they move out quite well. The XL improves on that complaint for this class
of plane. Zenith aircraft are
mainly for the journey and less about the destination. RVs are destination
planes that weigh more, go faster,
cost twice as much and use much more fuel. Zenith builders will have less
reason to complain about this
as time passes and as car gas sees > $3.00/gal.
I would have liked to known that a good bit of research on electrical
systems, fuel systems, upholstery, instrumentation and the red tape
associated with building would have as equal an impact on the project as
building itself. It's a lot to learn, not rocket science, but still more
than one expects. You begin to depend
upon your fellow builders and the archives a lot. Without them, the success
rate would be much worse.
Zenith aircraft are fun to build, where many others are labor intensive to
the extent that scratch building
would take a 2 to 5 five year effort to 9 or more. Zenith kits and support
are consistently good, not perfect,
but good.
I have no regrets on the project or the final product and the plane is a joy
to fly.
Hope this helps,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS @ www.macsmachine.com
Do not archive
Subject: Zenith-List: Newbie question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: RW Kel <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
>
> I haven't started on a kit yet but I'm thinking about going to the January
> "rudder building" class at the factory. I'd like to hear from folks why
> they went with Zenair and what they would like to have known before they
> got started.
> Thanks for helping a newbie out and please reply to the list if possible.
>
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Cdngoose" <601xl@sympatico.ca>
Dear Newbie, weather building the 601 or the 701 you should pick up the
DVD made by another builder. This will take you thru the actual
construction of a Zenith rudder, from start to finish. While it can be
used to supplement the construction guide supplied by the manufacturer
with this rudder, it is actually intended to demonstrate to the
beginning builder just what tasks and skills are required for any brand
of metal kit plane construction. In addition to the rudder building
demonstration, general metal building procedures are explained and
demonstrated. This in my opinion is a MUST HAVE for prospective builder.
You can find it at http://homebuilthelp.com <http://homebuilthelp.com/>
Mark Townsend
Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL EJ 2.2L
Osprey 2 serial # 751
www.ch601.org <http://www.ch601.org/>
www.Osprey2.com <http://www.osprey2.com/>
--> Zenith-List message posted by: RW Kel <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
I haven't started on a kit yet but I'm thinking about going to the
January "rudder building" class at the factory. I'd like to hear from
folks why they went with Zenair and what they would like to have known
before they got started.
Thanks for helping a newbie out and please reply to the list if
possible.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: VideoFlyer@aol.com
I highly recommend the workshop. I went about a year ago and thought it was
a great experience. Not what I was expecting but in the long run, better.
Let me explain. I had the impression that we would in "classroom
situation".....with an instructor up in front telling us how to build our rudders.
And that
we would all be building together, closely following our instructors
directions. Not even close.
After the sign-in, introductions, coffee and some donuts, they pretty much
said, "Here are the parts..and here are the tools...and here are the
instructions. Go to work."
Everyone worked at their own pace, while Nick and Sebastian and Roger walked
around, answered questions, helped if necessary.....but we were pretty much on
our own. After all, if you can't read and comprehend written instructions
and understand the pictures, you really don't have much business building a
plane. The workshop was a good "taste" of what it's like to build the Zenith.
Except here, if you made a mistake, you had some help, both from the Zenith
staff and from other builders. I got to know the other participants, as well as
Nick, Sebastion, Roger and some of the other folks at ZAC. (And they were ALL
very nice people, too!)
I left the workshop with a very good feeling about the company, the plane,
the people and my ability to tackle the project. I also left with a 601XL kit
(which I had ordered several weeks earlier.) In the past year, I have had a
ball working on my plane. I have the tail feathers, control surfaces and most
of the wings completed. (Yes, I have made some mistakes and have had to
drill out some rivets. Don't believe anyone who tells you they haven't!) I am
working on a Corvair engine. I hope to fly next spring/summer.
Do it!
Dave
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Newbie question |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" <lrm@isp.com>
Don't want to throw water on this, but don't let the rudder building
experience lull you into "it's all this easy frame of mind". The rudder is
by far the easiest part to build and it has the best instructions. The
reason it has the best instructions is simply because they have a lot of
input at the schools. Some of the rest of the instructions could use some
major revisions.
The most important thing I can tell you is to learn how to read the
drawings. 99.9% of your answers are there but you have to ferret them out.
You will find you will need additional tools that are not in the everyday
mechanics garage or Zenith doesn't mention until you need them. Somewhere
in the archives you can find a list of the tools that you will really need.
An air riveter is a real blessing, don't even think about using a hand one,
I believe there are approximately 5700 rivets in a 701.
You don't get any chances to screw up. If you screw up a part, you either
have to make another one or buy another one. I measure three times and cut
once. And if I have any doubt, I check again or sleep on it.
It also doesn't hurt to get second opinions or someone else to help you.
One thing I really like about this list is that there is no such thing as a
dumb question, and you will not be flamed.
Go for it, just don't be afraid to ask to help. Larry N1345L
----- Original Message -----
From: "RW Kel" <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Newbie question
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: RW Kel <last1inisit@yahoo.com>
>
> I haven't started on a kit yet but I'm thinking about going to the January
"rudder building" class at the factory. I'd like to hear from folks why
they went with Zenair and what they would like to have known before they got
started.
> Thanks for helping a newbie out and please reply to the list if possible.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
---
Message 12
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| Subject: | Rivet pliers thanks via CH701.com |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
Andrew, I think credit goes to Monty and BJ Schwaller for that tool, I am
sure they would be happy to see your note, so I include it here!
do not archive
Hi,
I'm a new 701 builder in Australia and recently made a set of soft river
pliers with instructions that I downloaded from
kolbpilot.com/ch701/pliers.htm.
I can't find out who wrote the article, so I'd like you to pass on my thanks
and appreciation to the person who wrote it, as the pliers work a treat and
made a great job of our elevator trailing edge !
Thanks again,
Andrew Beveridge
11 Albatross Pass
Willetton, Western Australia WA 6155
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