Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:50 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Benford2@aol.com)
2. 06:19 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Gary Craze)
3. 06:22 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Ed Kramer)
4. 06:26 AM - Re: Reklaw Fly-In (Gary Craze)
5. 06:42 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Ken Hornstein)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (cgalley)
7. 07:57 AM - 801 on Jet-A (Gary Craze)
8. 08:10 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 08:10 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
10. 08:13 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 08:42 AM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Brett)
12. 09:15 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Frank Stutzman)
13. 09:18 AM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Gary Craze)
14. 10:36 AM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 11:39 AM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (David Barth)
16. 01:47 PM - Re: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net) (Dave Kubassek)
17. 03:40 PM - Re: 801 on Jet-A (Dan Knezacek)
18. 04:37 PM - Tail wheel v Trike (Matt & Jo)
19. 05:26 PM - Re: 801 on mo-gas (Frank Stutzman)
20. 06:16 PM - Re: Tail wheel v Trike (Mike Fothergill)
21. 06:42 PM - Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A (Brandon Tucker)
22. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A (Chris Boultinghouse)
23. 08:49 PM - Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings (Gary Blomgren)
24. 11:41 PM - Re: Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings (Leo van Schie)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
In a message dated 10/21/2004 12:29:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
dirkslabbert@telkomsa.net writes:
>
> Whoa Ben ! there you said it, right to the point !
> Thanks for a very good explanation, could just keep some pilot out of harm's
> way.
> What is the solution for vapour lock then, if any ? temperature regularly
> goes to 100 here on my little strip.
> Regards,
> Dirk.
>
Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible. One
thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return line for
un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good way to
check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it acts up
on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock too.
be safe
Ben Haas N801BH do not archive
Message 2
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
Thanks Ben,
This is one big reason I've been seriously considering using an
IO-360 rather than an O-360. But other than automotive engines, I've
never dealt much with fuel injected aircraft engines other than fly
behind them. So I'll need to study up on the plumbing.
I'm down in Houston, TX, which is about as hot and near sea level as you
can get.
Many thanks
Gary Craze
Houston, TX
N801GC (reserved)
---------------------------------
Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible.
One
thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return
line for
un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good
way to
check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it
acts up
on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock
too.
be safe
Ben Haas N801BH do not archive
==
==
==
==
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas. The
shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh
forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the parts.
Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can
haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in
the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure
(RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and
took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube.
Just my 2-cents!
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701
edair701@adelphia.net
Build Status: Stalled
Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing.
Working On: Flaperons 50%
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>
> I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel
> specs
> and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines of
> all
> kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also
> started
> and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just
> before I
> moved here to Jackson Hole Wy.
>
> 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel. 100
> LL
> blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green
> 100-130
> had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation. If
> any
> of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was
> available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports
> operating out of
> them
> 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the sticker
> on
> the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane number
> and
> the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91. Don't
> assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing to
> a
> conservative advance setting.
> 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely
> regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant
> whereever you buy
> it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason being
> we
> are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8
> all
> aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is set
> at 33
> degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to
> switch
> between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my panel.
> Now
> keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I
> was
> based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of degrees
> for
> a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at this
> elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your
> engine
> for your local area.
>
> 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing his
> homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it during the
> hot
> summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is another one of the
> tests
> that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on
> it.100LL is
> the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time
> and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level
> with
> the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money
> and buy
> 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel
> will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a
> short
> strip.
Message 4
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
Hi John, I'll be there but since my 801 is still mostly in crates, I'll
be up with a buddy in his Kitfox. We camp out along the flight line,
red white and blue Kitfox, 926TC.
Hope to see other builders there! It's an amazing fly-in.
Gary Craze
Houston, TX
N801GC (reserved)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Williamson
Subject: Zenith-List: Fly-In
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "John Williamson"
--> <kolbrapilot@comcast.net>
Are any Zenith flyers planning on taking their airplane to the 20th
Annual Flying M Ranch Fly-In/Campout this weekend? Also known as the
Reklaw, TX Fly-In.
Dates are 22-24 October 2004. Info about the airfield can be found at:
http://www.airnav.com/airport/7TA7
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolb Kolbra, Rotax 912ULS, 697 hours
http://home.comcast.net/~kolbrapilot
Zenith CH701 Project
http://home.comcast.net/~stol_airplane
http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/stol_airplane
do not archive
==
==
==
==
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d
gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yP<ea#
"SJK;C*}fMI;Mv(aiO2z~9n.w?@\>kEpSD@*e`
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ken Hornstein <kenh@pobox.com>
>Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible. One
>thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return line for
>un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good way to
>check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it acts up
>on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock too.
Maybe I've just been lucky in regards to automobiles ... but do
modern cars/trucks vapor lock? I can't think of any of the traditional
aviation engine "issues" (carb icing, vapor lock, trying to start
a warm fuel-injected C172) applying to a modern automobile engine.
I turn the key, and it just starts, no matter what the temperature
or whether the engine is warm or cold. Sure, I remember plenty of
problems 15-20 years ago, but not more recently.
In a side note, I thought the issues with the high cost of 100LL were
due to the fact that it's a relatively low-volume product (compared to
automotive gasoline) and the fact that since it's got lead in it, it
needs dedicated fueling infrastructure (because once a truck is used
to carry leaded gasoline, it can't be used to carry unleaded gasoline
without an expensive cleaning procedure).
--Ken
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
So don't fly over 9,500 Ft!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
>
> Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas.
The
> shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh
> forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the
parts.
> Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker can
> haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline in
> the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor pressure
> (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment
and
> took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
> approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test
tube.
>
> Just my 2-cents!
> Ed Kramer
> West Seneca, NY
> CH 701
> edair701@adelphia.net
> Build Status: Stalled
> Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing.
> Working On: Flaperons 50%
>
>
> > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
> >
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>
> >
> > I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel
> > specs
> > and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines
of
> > all
> > kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also
> > started
> > and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just
> > before I
> > moved here to Jackson Hole Wy.
> >
> > 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel.
100
> > LL
> > blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green
> > 100-130
> > had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation.
If
> > any
> > of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was
> > available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports
> > operating out of
> > them
> > 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the
sticker
> > on
> > the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane
number
> > and
> > the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91.
Don't
> > assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your timing
to
> > a
> > conservative advance setting.
> > 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is closely
> > regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant
> > whereever you buy
> > it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason
being
> > we
> > are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my V-8
> > all
> > aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is
set
> > at 33
> > degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes to
> > switch
> > between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my
panel.
> > Now
> > keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if I
> > was
> > based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of
degrees
> > for
> > a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at
this
> > elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune your
> > engine
> > for your local area.
> >
> > 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing
his
> > homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it during the
> > hot
> > summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is another one of the
> > tests
> > that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on
> > it.100LL is
> > the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a
time
> > and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level
> > with
> > the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money
> > and buy
> > 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that
fuel
> > will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a
> > short
> > strip.
>
>
Message 7
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
Maybe saving money with mogas is a moot point. Based on this newsclip
about Jet-A prices, I've decided to go turbine on the 801... (tongue
firmly stuck in cheek....)
--------------------------------------------------
Jet Fuel costs have jumped from 88.9 cents per gallon at the beginning
of the year to more than $1.56 per gallon now, Parsons said, citing the
U.S. Department of Energy.
-----------------------------------------------------
That's still way cheaper than I'm paying for non-premium unleaded mogas
!!
Gary Craze
Houston, TX
N801GC (reserved)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas.
The
shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh
forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the
parts.
Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker
can
haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline
in
the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor
pressure
(RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment
and
took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test
tube.
Just my 2-cents!
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701
edair701@adelphia.net
Build Status: Stalled
Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing.
Working On: Flaperons 50%
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>
> I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel
> specs
> and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines
of
> all
> kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also
> started
> and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just
> before I
> moved here to Jackson Hole Wy.
>
> 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel.
> 100
> LL
> blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green
> 100-130
> had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation.
If
> any
> of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was
> available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports
> operating out of
> them
> 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the
sticker
> on
> the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane
number
> and
> the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91.
Don't
> assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your
timing to
> a
> conservative advance setting.
> 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is
closely
> regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant
> whereever you buy
> it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason
being
> we
> are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my
V-8
> all
> aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is
set
> at 33
> degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes
to
> switch
> between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my
panel.
> Now
> keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if
I
> was
> based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of
degrees
> for
> a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at
this
> elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune
your
> engine
> for your local area.
>
> 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing
> his homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it
> during the hot summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is
> another one of the tests
> that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on
> it.100LL is
> the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a
time
> and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence
level
> with
> the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of
money
> and buy
> 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that
fuel
> will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on
a
> short
> strip.
==
==
==
==
Message 8
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
He probably had a winter blend with a lot more ethanol in it.....I have
done the same thing and the mo gas did not boil at 12,500ft.
Of course one has to be much more careful with mogas and ensure that no
part of the system has a pump that sucks on the fuel, especially one
that sucks on warm fuel.
A low wing tank with an engine driven pump high on the firewall is
asking for a visit by the grim reaper!
Make sure your 801 has restrictions in the fuel supply from the high
wing tanks...In fact I would plumb in a sensitive pressure guage to make
sure there is POSITIVE pressure on the suction side of any pumps.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas.
The
shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh
forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the
parts.
Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker
can
haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline
in
the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor
pressure
(RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment
and
took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test
tube.
Just my 2-cents!
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701
edair701@adelphia.net
Build Status: Stalled
Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing.
Working On: Flaperons 50%
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>
> I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel
> specs
> and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines
of
> all
> kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also
> started
> and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just
> before I
> moved here to Jackson Hole Wy.
>
> 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel.
> 100
> LL
> blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green
> 100-130
> had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation.
If
> any
> of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was
> available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports
> operating out of
> them
> 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the
sticker
> on
> the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane
number
> and
> the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91.
Don't
> assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your
timing to
> a
> conservative advance setting.
> 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is
closely
> regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant
> whereever you buy
> it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason
being
> we
> are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my
V-8
> all
> aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is
set
> at 33
> degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes
to
> switch
> between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my
panel.
> Now
> keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if
I
> was
> based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of
degrees
> for
> a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at
this
> elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune
your
> engine
> for your local area.
>
> 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing
> his homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it
> during the hot summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is
> another one of the tests
> that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on
> it.100LL is
> the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a
time
> and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence
level
> with
> the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of
money
> and buy
> 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that
fuel
> will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on
a
> short
> strip.
==
==
==
==
Message 9
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
He probably had a winter blend with a lot more ethanol in it.....I have
done the same thing and the mo gas did not boil at 12,500ft.
Of course one has to be much more careful with mogas and ensure that no
part of the system has a pump that sucks on the fuel, especially one
that sucks on warm fuel.
A low wing tank with an engine driven pump high on the firewall is
asking for a visit by the grim reaper!
Make sure your 801 has restrictions in the fuel supply from the high
wing tanks...In fact I would plumb in a sensitive pressure guage to make
sure there is POSITIVE pressure on the suction side of any pumps.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
Something else I think should be added on the subject of mogas vs avgas.
The
shelf life of mogas is only 3-6 months, avgas will probably stay fresh
forever. Mogas as it sits in the system over time will varnish up the
parts.
Also, the storage & transportation of magas is not regulated. A tanker
can
haul crude oil products in many different forms and then haul gasoline
in
the same tank with out it ever being cleaned out. the rated vapor
pressure
(RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment
and
took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test
tube.
Just my 2-cents!
Ed Kramer
West Seneca, NY
CH 701
edair701@adelphia.net
Build Status: Stalled
Completed: Rudder, Left wing, Right wing.
Working On: Flaperons 50%
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Benford2@aol.com
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>
> I am willing to chime in on this topic and fill in the details on fuel
> specs
> and octane requirments. Aften a couple dozen years of building engines
of
> all
> kinds including NASCAR, drag, offshore and sprint car motors. I also
> started
> and ran an engine R&D and dyno service I sold to Jasper Engines just
> before I
> moved here to Jackson Hole Wy.
>
> 1- The higher the octane number the slower the burn rate of the fuel.
> 100
> LL
> blue is called 100-130. The true octane is about 108. The old green
> 100-130
> had 2.5 times the lead in it and that helped is preventing detonation.
If
> any
> of you older guys remember the purple stuff, that was 115-145 and was
> available at the bigger airports that had heavy piston transports
> operating out of
> them
> 2- Auto gas as sold in gas stations are hardly ever the octane the
sticker
> on
> the pump says, It is an involved test to check for the true octane
number
> and
> the stations know that so they often sell 87 and 89 disguised as 91.
Don't
> assume that you are getting high octane fuel and always set your
timing to
> a
> conservative advance setting.
> 3- One of the main reasons for 100LL high cost is because it is
closely
> regulated and tested. This assures you that it will be consistant
> whereever you buy
> it at. Here in Jackson 100LL is very expensive with the main reason
being
> we
> are a resort destination, this week it is over 4.10 a gallon. On my
V-8
> all
> aluminum Ford powered 801 I am running duel MSD ignitions. Ign # 1 is
set
> at 33
> degrees of total advance, Ign # 2 is set at 27 degrees. All it takes
to
> switch
> between Mogas and 100LL is the flick of a dpdt toggle switch on my
panel.
> Now
> keep in mind my plane is sitting in its hangar tonight at 6600 msl, if
I
> was
> based down at sea level the timing should be retarded a couple of
degrees
> for
> a safety measure. A 10.4-1 motor like mine is really a 8.6 -1 here at
this
> elevation so timing can be advanced. The point I am making is tune
your
> engine
> for your local area.
>
> 4- Vapor lock can be a real problem if your fuel supplier is not doing
> his homework. If he gets a load of winter blend gas and sells it
> during the hot summer months it will most likely vapor lock. This is
> another one of the tests
> that is pretty involved and he is betting no one is gonna call him on
> it.100LL is
> the same blend all year round. I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a
time
> and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence
level
> with
> the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of
money
> and buy
> 91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that
fuel
> will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on
a
> short
> strip.
==
==
==
==
Message 10
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Remember on proper A/C engines you don't have a full return like you do
on an auto...I'm not convinced how you get any trapped air/vapour out of
the system...I'm still learning this myself but I think the Airflow
performance system has a purge valve that vents vapour. On a carb if you
get vapour/air it simply vents straight through the float bowl.
I think you have to be More careful with A/C Fi vs a carb.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Craze
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on mo-gas
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
Thanks Ben,
This is one big reason I've been seriously considering using an
IO-360 rather than an O-360. But other than automotive engines, I've
never dealt much with fuel injected aircraft engines other than fly
behind them. So I'll need to study up on the plumbing.
I'm down in Houston, TX, which is about as hot and near sea level as you
can get.
Many thanks
Gary Craze
Houston, TX
N801GC (reserved)
---------------------------------
Keep all fuel ines and tanks as far away from a heat source as possible.
One
thing I didn't expand on is a fuel injected engine that uses a return
line for
un used fuel is a lot less prone to vapour lock then a carb. One good
way to
check is to use the same fuel in your car/truck as your plane, if it
acts up
on the way to the airport on the same 100 days rhen the plane will lock
too.
be safe
Ben Haas N801BH do not archive
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
==
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on Jet-A |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
Yep that's cheaper. But your going to use 10 times as much. :)
Honstly I don't know exactly how much some of the new turbins burn.
But I bet it's alot.
Thanks
Brett Ray
www.hog-air.com
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman <stutzman@stutzman.com>
Forgive me if I have screwed the attributions up.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
> (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment
and
> took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
> approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test
> tube.
FWIW, I frequently fly my Bonanza at density altitudes over 16,000 feet.
If the mogas I use was boiling, there is nothing that indicates to me that
it is occuring (engine rans fine, my engine monitor showes nothing amiss).
I also have often driven a car at altitudes over 9000 feet. There lots
of cars in cites at high altitudes (La Paz, Bolivia and Lima, Peru come to
mind). Maybe there is a special mogas formulation for such locations, but
I doubt it.
My point is that while I don't doubt that mogas has a lower vaporization
point than avgas, the likelyhood of it being a problem is a fuction of the
fuel system, not the fuel.
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Soon to be 701 builder
Hood River, OR
Message 13
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
Innodyn, www.innodyn.com (formerly Affordable Turbine Power), is finally
getting ready to release their line of turbines for experimental
aircraft, ranging from 165hp to 255hp. Prices range from $27K - $35K.
They haven't released their fuel burn numbers yet, but are claiming that
"On development Turbines our fuel flow rates have been quite comparable
to internal combustion engines, in all phases of operation."
They'll burn diesel, kerosene, or Jet-A.
Who knows.... When I'm ready to drop the $20K-$30K I've budgeted for an
engine in the next 18-24 months, my tongue-in-cheek comment about a
turbine in the 801 might not be so far fetched... I can hear it
spooling up now....whoops, had my hand on the air grinder <grin>..
Rgds,
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brett
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
Yep that's cheaper. But your going to use 10 times as much. :) Honstly I
don't know exactly how much some of the new turbins burn.
But I bet it's alot.
Thanks
Brett Ray
www.hog-air.com
do not archive
==
==
==
==
Message 14
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes they are making lots of claims...:)
If they are true...(I highly doubt it) and the cost of the FWF kits come
way down and IF someone would actually start offering insurance on
one...I'll sign up...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Craze
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 801 on Jet-A
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" <garycraze@hotmail.com>
Innodyn, www.innodyn.com (formerly Affordable Turbine Power), is finally
getting ready to release their line of turbines for experimental
aircraft, ranging from 165hp to 255hp. Prices range from $27K - $35K.
They haven't released their fuel burn numbers yet, but are claiming that
"On development Turbines our fuel flow rates have been quite comparable
to internal combustion engines, in all phases of operation."
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: David Barth <davids601xl@yahoo.com>
Hey Ben. Perhaps you can clarify something for me. I was at a rotax engine and
fuel system seminar this summer and heard something about a - well sort of
like a half-life of octane. Whether it evaporates or disappears by some other
means I don't recall. Since the rotax engines were very sensitive to octane
levels, we were told always to use "fresh" gas since the octane would be decreasing
with time. Buying 1000 gallons at a time would lead to having "not very
fresh" gas by the time you reach the end of the tank. Can you shed some light
on this for me and the rest of the group? Thanks Ben
David
Benford2@aol.com wrote:
I buy my auto fuel a 1000 gallons at a time
and I know my supplier personally so I have a very high confidence level with
the quality of it. If you are trying to save the maximum amount of money and buy
91 octane at the cheapest place in your town you can almost bet that fuel
will come back to haunt ya on take off, at 95 degrees in the summer on a short
strip.
Ben Haas N801BH do not archive
David Barth
601 XL Plansbuilder 15% done?
Working on Wings
www.ch601.org
Message 16
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--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Kubassek" <dkubassek@golden.net>
I've had a whole lot more tailwheel shimmy than on the XL.
I've not experienced any nose wheel shimmy with the XL
Dave kubassek .....C-FDSF.......XL 0235 Lyc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: XL Nosewheel Shimmy (kim.forest@surewest.net)
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Brett " <brett@hog-air.com>
>
> I have never had mine shimmy. I have had a 152 do it to me sometimes
> though.
>
>
> > Zenith Gurus:
> >
> > Is anyone aware of nosewheel shimmy problems on the XL?
> > I'm still trying to decide if I should go with the tail dragger.
> >
> > Thank you.
> > Forest K.
> > N601FK (Reserved)
> > Starter Kit Started
> >do not arcive
>
>
> Thanks
> Brett Ray
> www.hog-air.com
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on Jet-A |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dan Knezacek" <dan@knezacek.ca>
Last December in Scientific American's special on aviation they did an
article on the first model to fly across the Atlantic.
Some guy from New York city developed a very efficient way of running his
model aircraft motor on kerosene. He leaned it out so much that he had to
install spark plugs and he had to add some sort of synthetic lubricant to
the fuel.
Why can't we develop some system like that for our planes?
It's true that the engine was originally diesel but the way he ran it it had
to have an ignition system.
Dan
Message 18
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| Subject: | Tail wheel v Trike |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
Does any one know of the speed difference in between a Trike and a Tailwheel for
the 601 XL. I am in the early early stages. I am still researching
Any comment welcome
Cheers
Matt Archer
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 801 on mo-gas |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Frank Stutzman <stutzman@stutzman.com>
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Ed Kramer wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ed Kramer" <edair701@adelphia.net>
> (RVP) of mogas is around 5 & avgas around 10. A friend did an experiment and
> took two test tubes up to altitude, one of mogas & one avgas. As they
> approached 10,000 feet msl the mogas instantly boiled out of the test tube.
[sorry if this comes out twice, I didn't see it the first time]
I've somewhat routinely had my mogas sucking bonanza up to density
altitudes of 15,000 without problems. The plane ran fine and the engine
monitor never said anything was amiss.
There are a lot of cars and busses in LaPaz Boliva (elevation 12,000 or
so). Maybe they have a special mogas formulation, but I rather doubt it.
I agree that mogas has a lower vapor pressure than avgas. My point is
the likelyhood of a vapor lock is more a function of the fuel system
than it is the fuel.
What your friend saw with the test tubes probably saw had more to do with
the temperature of the test tubes than it had to do with the lower ambient
pressure.
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Tail wheel v Trike |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Mike Fothergill <mfothergill@sympatico.ca>
Hi;
There is a small speed advantage of about 2 mph, but it is very
difficult to get an exact number because no two airplanes have exactly
the same drag. I do know that my 601 has always been a bit faster than
two other trike versions.
Re the trike vs tailwheel decision:
There are other considerations as well as speed. (Besides the tail wheel
looking better IMHO)
The tail wheel version gets off the ground a little quicker due, I
believe to less wheel drag and can assume a positive angle of attack sooner.
The trike can land shorter because it can get the nose higher on flare
without a tailwheel limiting the angle.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Mike
CH-601HDS tailwheel
UHS Spinners
Matt & Jo wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
>
> Does any one know of the speed difference in between a Trike and a Tailwheel
for the 601 XL. I am in the early early stages. I am still researching
>
> Any comment welcome
>
> Cheers
>
> Matt Archer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
Gents,
Check out this turbine engine. It was introduced
in this months sport aviation magazine in their "seen
at air venture" section.
http://microjeteng.com/prop.html
It is up to 130 hp. I have e-mailed their
webmaster for more information, but have recieved
nothing in return. This is an engine that has
actually been run, but as usual, no specific data is
offered on their very poorly designed website. They
have a whole line of turbo jet, prop, shaft, and fan
engines originally engineered for the high end model
airplane industry. I would love to get a hold of one
of these babies!
If anyone is able to get more info, please let me
know.
R/
Brandon Tucker
601 HDS
unpacked the fuselage kit today!
__________________________________
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Turbine engines - was 801 on Jet-A |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chris Boultinghouse" <sonex260@austin.rr.com>
Here are some specs for that engine, as found posted on another list I
browse:
Microjet Turboprop Engine
Model Number: HFTP 65
Horse Power: 65
Pressure Ratio: 3.75:1
Fuel Consumption: 10.75 US gallons per hour at 65 hp
Fuel Type: Paraffin or diesel and 2 stroke oil 2%
Dimensions: 6" diameter by 30" length
Weight: 25lbs
Price: $21,349 plus shipping
Yikes! $21k for a 65hp engine? I'll pass.
Regards,
Chris Boultinghouse
Austin, TX
Sonex N260SX (reserved)
http://sonex260.wheelsup.org
DO NOT ARCHIVE
> -----Original Message-----
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Brandon Tucker <btucke73@yahoo.com>
>
> Gents,
>
> Check out this turbine engine.It was introduced
> in this months sport aviation magazine in their "seen
> at air venture" section.
>
> http://microjeteng.com/prop.html
Message 23
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| Subject: | Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Blomgren" <garyb@mcn.org>
I am new to Zenith and am signed up for the Factory School November 18/19,
2004. My particular interest is in the possible building of a 701. I would
like to store the plane on an enclosed equipment trailer on our ranch during
the winter to save on hanger rent at our local airport. A little was said
at the Zenith display at Oshkosh that the 701 wings can be easily adapted to
be pulled out a little, turned and folded back to the tail for trailering.
However, I have not heard of anyone actually doing this.
Does anyone know for a fact this is being done? Is it to complicated to
bother with? Does it present a rigging nightmare? Thanks in advance for
any input. Gary Blomgren (retired Mooney pilot)
Message 24
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| Subject: | Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings |
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Leo van Schie" <l.van.schie@inter.nl.net>
Hi,
I have the folding wings option installed on my 701. I must say it does
not make an awful lot of difference in easiness of removing and storing
the wings. You still need 2 persons to remove and reconnect the wings
and (if installed) the tubes to the wing tanks. The modification is not
to hard to do.
Leo van Schie
CH701 PH-3U1
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Gary Blomgren
Verzonden: vrijdag 22 oktober 2004 5:48
Aan: zenith-list@matronics.com
Onderwerp: Zenith-List: Zenith 701 & Fold Back Wings
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Blomgren" <garyb@mcn.org>
I am new to Zenith and am signed up for the Factory School November
18/19,
2004. My particular interest is in the possible building of a 701. I
would
like to store the plane on an enclosed equipment trailer on our ranch
during
the winter to save on hanger rent at our local airport. A little was
said
at the Zenith display at Oshkosh that the 701 wings can be easily
adapted to
be pulled out a little, turned and folded back to the tail for
trailering.
However, I have not heard of anyone actually doing this.
Does anyone know for a fact this is being done? Is it to
complicated to
bother with? Does it present a rigging nightmare? Thanks in advance
for
any input. Gary Blomgren (retired Mooney pilot)
==
==
==
==
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